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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / May 2006

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Can I tow a pop-up with my 2001 Sienna?

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New Camper - 12 May 2006 05:10 GMT
I have unexpectedly been given a pop-up camper.  We don't have the tow
package for our 2001 Sienna, so its towing capacity is 2000 lbs.  The
maximum gross weight of van, trailer, passengers and cargo is 6900 lbs.
The dry weight of the camper is 1400 lbs., the curb weight of the van
is 3912 lbs, and our family is in the neighborhood of 700 lbs, leaving
888 for cargo, etc.  I don't even know how to begin estimating the
weight of camping gear plus the optional equipment on the van and
camper, but I suspect we are pushing the limit.

For anyone with more experience than I have, I guess my questions are:

While it obviously varies tremendously, what does camping gear weigh?

Is there anything I can do to increase the safe towing capacity of the
Sienna?  Anything that can be added/upgraded after market?

What do I look for in a trailer hitch?  I have been advised to get a
Class II, but I don't know what that means.

Also, the tongue weight on the camper is stated as 250 lbs, but the
maximum in the owner's manual is 200 lbs.  Anything I can do about
that?

Thanks!
Jim Redelfs - 12 May 2006 11:01 GMT
> I have unexpectedly been given a pop-up camper.

Given your intended tow vehicle, I'm not sure wholehearted CONGRATULATIONS are
in order.  Never forget:  You get what you PAY for and there is no such thing
as a free lunch.  That said...

> We don't have the tow package for our 2001 Sienna,
> so its towing capacity is 2000 lbs.

That says it all right there unless there is only YOU camping and you were
given an EXTREMELY small popup camping trailer.

There's really no need to go much further:  Especially if you are a family,
using this minivan to pull a popup camping trailer will finish the van off
rather quickly.  The first to go and frequently the most (or second most)
costly item will be the transmission.

> The maximum gross weight of van, trailer, passengers and cargo
> is 6900 lbs. The dry weight of the camper is 1400 lbs.,
> the curb weight of the van is 3912 lbs
> [much snippage of fine detail]

You have done much "homework" but it's really more than enough.  For those
that have BTDT, we know what works and what doesn't - or shouldn't.  For
absolute accuracy, one should tow their lashup, enroute to a real outing, to a
public scale and get real data.

By simple virtue of the fact that the minivan does NOT have the tow package,
your SAFETY, and the safety of those sharing the road with you, would be
compromised by the likely lesser-capable brakes on the minivan, at least.

> I suspect we are pushing the limit.

In the real world, you will have beat the limit to death and gone well beyond.

> While it obviously varies tremendously, what does camping gear weigh?

That depends on whether it is a bath towel or cast iron skillet.  IOW, there's
no good answer except to use a scale.

> Is there anything I can do to increase the safe
> towing capacity of the Sienna?

No.

Tow packages vary widely.  In the case of the typical minivan, I suspect the
upgrade includes larger brakes and radiator and, certainly, the engine.

> Anything that can be added/upgraded after market?

Auxiliary transmission cooler.

> What do I look for in a trailer hitch?

Steel?   [ducking]   :)

> I have been advised to get a
> Class II, but I don't know what that means.

Hitches are rated from I to IV (I think).  The rating implies the maximum
weight rating of the hitch.

My first popup hitch was a Class I permanently attached to the station wagon.  
My second wagon got a Class II hitch which featured a removable drawbar - a
HUGE convenience for which my shins are eternally grateful.

> Also, the tongue weight on the camper is stated as 250 lbs, but the
> maximum in the owner's manual is 200 lbs.  Anything I can do about
> that?

Not much.  There may not be many (any?) worthwhile suspension upgrades for
your van short of replacing the springs which would be quite expensive.

There is no better way to "finish off" a minivan than to turn it into a
trailer-towing vehicle, particularly if the van is loaded near, at or beyond
its rating.  Just because you were GIVEN a popup doesn't mean you HAVE to use
it to the detriment of your bank account.

Mom, Dad, two kids, a couple trikes, the usual "rock and anvil collection" of
camping gear, towing a trailer with an overloaded minivan is a sobering
thought from a vehicle longevity and safety standpoint.

Good luck.  You would do well to get a "bigger horse".
Signature

           :)
JR

2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD
Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000

someone@somewhere.org - 15 May 2006 20:59 GMT
> > The maximum gross weight of van, trailer, passengers and cargo
> > is 6900 lbs. The dry weight of the camper is 1400 lbs.,
> > the curb weight of the van is 3912 lbs
> > [much snippage of fine detail]

> You have done much "homework" but it's really more than enough.  For those
> that have BTDT, we know what works and what doesn't - or shouldn't.  For
> absolute accuracy, one should tow their lashup, enroute to a real outing, to a
> public scale and get real data.

> By simple virtue of the fact that the minivan does NOT have the tow package,
> your SAFETY, and the safety of those sharing the road with you, would be
> compromised by the likely lesser-capable brakes on the minivan, at least.

How does a bigger radiator, transmission cooler and alternator add safety
to the vehicle?  I can see how the tow package adds longer vehicle life
and allows you to charge the battery in your pop-up, but since the
brakes aren't upgraded as part of the towing package how does it have
anything to do with safety?

> > I suspect we are pushing the limit.

I suspect you are bullshitting.  Just because you need a diesel dualie to
tow a pop-up doesn't mean everyone does.  The OP has the car and trailer
already.  Hook them up.  See how it handles.  Take it to a scale and see
what it weighs.  THEN decide.
altar@nospam.net - 15 May 2006 21:15 GMT
>The OP has the car and trailer already.  Hook them up.  See how it handles.

That has to be the worst towing advice one can give. If the OP has
never towed anything, how would he know what is good handling or not?
If it were me, I would give a lot of credence to those who have had
quite a bit of experience towing.

Tom
Kegger - 15 May 2006 21:39 GMT
Well one way to know is take it out on the freeway.. If you see a
trailer very similarly to yours passing you by it may not have handled
well.....
Tail wag, Pulling and problems stopping are a few things that will show
you how it handles. How level the ride is also very important as a heavy
weight on the tounge will raise the front of the vehicle cutting gas
milage and causing a possible issue with wind and steering.
Good common sense and as daddy always taught me you should be able to
feel the vehicle through your butt.. fly by the seat of your pants....
no truer words were ever spoken...

>>The OP has the car and trailer already.  Hook them up.  See how it handles.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Tom
someone@somewhere.org - 16 May 2006 00:09 GMT
> >The OP has the car and trailer already.  Hook them up.  See how it handles.

> That has to be the worst towing advice one can give. If the OP has
> never towed anything, how would he know what is good handling or not?
> If it were me, I would give a lot of credence to those who have had
> quite a bit of experience towing.

Did you go to professional trailer driving school?  How do _you_ know what
acceptable handling feels like?

Someone used to towing a 1000lb trailer with a dumptruck may feel
unsettled by the feeling of towing the same trailer with a compact car.  You
can actually feel a 1000lb trailer back there if you're driving a 2500lb car.
You don't need a dumptruck to safetly tow a 1000lb trailer though.
altar nospam - 16 May 2006 02:36 GMT
>> >The OP has the car and trailer already.  Hook them up.  See how it handles.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>can actually feel a 1000lb trailer back there if you're driving a 2500lb car.
>You don't need a dumptruck to safetly tow a 1000lb trailer though.

What I know or don't know is irrelevant. What the OP doesn't know *is*
relevant. I don't believe I gave advice on towing to the OP. Only that
he should listen to those who have had experience.
But.... now that you bring it up, I have towed (as recently as two
days ago) a pop-up weighing 1650lb. Weighed on the way to camping. I
have towed it with 3/4 ton trucks, and a Plymouth voyager, and a few
things in between.
The worst advice one can give to a newbie towing is to "try it, see
how it goes". That is bad, and potentially dangerous, advice. People
get killed doing that.

Tom
Jim Redelfs - 16 May 2006 03:14 GMT
> Did you go to professional trailer driving school?

If you find a "trailer driving school", please let us know.

> How do _you_ know what acceptable handling feels like?

If you are going to play netnanny and curmudgeon, you'd better
step-up the rapier-like wit and accuracy.  You are "speaking" to a group that
has MANY readers that have MANY miles of towing experience.

> You don't need a dumptruck to safetly tow a 1000lb trailer though.

I prefer a twin-screw with a floating tag for those times when the little
trailer gets REALLY out of hand back there.  Backing-into campsites is the
worst:  I've flattened TWO popups already this season.
Signature

             <sigh>
JR
--
           :)
JR

someone@somewhere.org - 16 May 2006 03:35 GMT
> > Did you go to professional trailer driving school?

> If you find a "trailer driving school", please let us know.

I know of none.  If its unsafe to hook a trailer up and practice, and
there aren't any driving schools how does one learn?

> > How do _you_ know what acceptable handling feels like?

> If you are going to play netnanny and curmudgeon, you'd better
> step-up the rapier-like wit and accuracy.  You are "speaking" to a group that
> has MANY readers that have MANY miles of towing experience.

Exactly.  You have the experience because you towed many miles.  How else
does one get experience?
Jim Redelfs - 16 May 2006 03:04 GMT
>> By simple virtue of the fact that the minivan does NOT have the
>> tow package, your SAFETY, and the safety of those sharing the road
>> with you, would be compromised by the likely lesser-capable brakes
>> on the minivan, at least.

> How does a bigger radiator, transmission cooler and alternator
> add safety to the vehicle?

For the sake of this discussion, they don't.  Taken to the extreme, however,
such upgrades would decrease the chances of a breakdown.

>>> I suspect we are pushing the limit.

> I suspect you are bullshitting.

...and it's entirely possible I have met my match.

> Just because you need a diesel dualie to tow a
> pop-up doesn't mean everyone does.

Agreed.  However, accurately describing and discussing the implications of
pulling a loaded popup with a 2000-lb-rated minivan is the point.

You, my anonymous "friend", would weld a fifthwheel hitch atop a Geo Metro
coupe to see how it handles pulling a triple-slide fiver.  "We haven't killed
anyone yet so it MUST be okay!"  Balls to the walls, dude.   <sigh>

> The OP has the car and trailer already.  Hook them up.  See how it handles.
> Take it to a scale and see what it weighs.  THEN decide.

Then decide WHAT?  Decide if they're going to keep it?

It takes a serious outlay of $$ to install a hitch and controller on ANY
vehicle.  Are they to do THAT with any reasonable expectation that, if it is
overweight, they'll back-out of the deal?  Get real.

If the camper doesn't have brakes, I wouldn't pull it with ANY minivan.

We've gone from possibly too safe (strict adherence to The 75% Rule of
Thumb<tm>) to pedal-to-the-metal [if it can pull it, it's good to go].  Sheesh!
Signature

             :\
JR

someone@somewhere.org - 16 May 2006 03:31 GMT
> >> By simple virtue of the fact that the minivan does NOT have the
> >> tow package, your SAFETY, and the safety of those sharing the road
> >> with you, would be compromised by the likely lesser-capable brakes
> >> on the minivan, at least.

> > How does a bigger radiator, transmission cooler and alternator
> > add safety to the vehicle?

> For the sake of this discussion, they don't.  Taken to the extreme, however,
> such upgrades would decrease the chances of a breakdown.

Exactly.  So if it handles okay, add a bigger transmission cooler and keep
an eye on the temperature gauge.  Safety is not the issue.

> >>> I suspect we are pushing the limit.

> > I suspect you are bullshitting.

> ...and it's entirely possible I have met my match.

> > Just because you need a diesel dualie to tow a
> > pop-up doesn't mean everyone does.

> Agreed.  However, accurately describing and discussing the implications of
> pulling a loaded popup with a 2000-lb-rated minivan is the point.

> You, my anonymous "friend", would weld a fifthwheel hitch atop a Geo Metro
> coupe to see how it handles pulling a triple-slide fiver.  "We haven't killed
> anyone yet so it MUST be okay!"  Balls to the walls, dude.   <sigh>

There's a big difference between being an idiot, and towing within what
the vehicle manufacturer says is acceptable.  The owners manual says he can
tow 2000lbs.  If he had a bigger radiator, transmission cooler, and larger
alternator then the manufactuer would say he can tow 3500lbs.  You are
saying it is unsafe to tow 2000lbs with that vehicle.  I think Toyota
engineers and lawyers know more about the vehicle and the risks than you.

> > The OP has the car and trailer already.  Hook them up.  See how it handles.
> > Take it to a scale and see what it weighs.  THEN decide.

> Then decide WHAT?  Decide if they're going to keep it?

> It takes a serious outlay of $$ to install a hitch and controller on ANY
> vehicle.  Are they to do THAT with any reasonable expectation that, if it is
> overweight, they'll back-out of the deal?  Get real.

So buying a new tow vehicle is more economical?  Since Toyota says towing a
2000lb trailer is okay, buying a controller can moved to any tow vehicle and
spending $200 on a vehicle specific hitch and wiring to find out makes a lot
more sense to me.  $200 is nothing.  It will only buy two tanks of gas in a
"proper" tow vehicle these days.
Tony Wesley - 16 May 2006 03:57 GMT
> There's a big difference between being an idiot, and towing within what
> the vehicle manufacturer says is acceptable.  The owners manual says he can
> tow 2000lbs.  If he had a bigger radiator, transmission cooler, and larger
> alternator then the manufactuer would say he can tow 3500lbs.

Is it established that these are the differences with the trailer
package?

On some vehicles, they include changes to the springs, brakes, and/or
shock absorbers.
someone@somewhere.org - 16 May 2006 05:06 GMT
> > There's a big difference between being an idiot, and towing within what
> > the vehicle manufacturer says is acceptable.  The owners manual says he can
> > tow 2000lbs.  If he had a bigger radiator, transmission cooler, and larger
> > alternator then the manufactuer would say he can tow 3500lbs.

> Is it established that these are the differences with the trailer
> package?

For the current Sienna:
Towing Prep Package [4] -- 3,500-lb. towing capability with heavy-duty
radiator, heavy-duty fan, 150-amp alternator and power steering oil cooler.

I believe the Sienna has two transmission coolers.  One built into the radiator and
one behind the bumper on the drivers side.  The towing package makes the one
in the radiator bigger.  I am assuming the 2001 package is the same.

I suggest the OP read this forum where people with actual Sienna towing
experiences talk instead of naysayers towing with full size trucks.
http://www.siennaclub.org/forum/index.php?showforum=42
Tomes - 12 May 2006 19:15 GMT
>I have unexpectedly been given a pop-up camper.  We don't have the tow
> package for our 2001 Sienna, so its towing capacity is 2000 lbs.  The
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Thanks!

OK, here is my real-life experience with my 1998 Sienna, and it does
conflict with the book-speak.  We bought it new without the towing package.
I put a class II hitch on it and have been towing our popup for much of its
175,000 miles.  I have no transmission cooler, the original style brakes,
which work fine once you realize that you now have more mass to stop and the
stopping distance is longer and my popup did not have brakes on it.  (I just
got a new popup since my old one (Coleman Rio Grande Destiny) got rear-ended
and the new one has brakes, so I just upgraded the electricals to include a
brake controller now.)  IT is my understanding from when I bought the Sienna
that the tow package included just the hitch and the transmission cooler -
no extra braking, no bigger engine (this engine has all the power that you
will need).  There is not much else you can do to boost its towing capacity.

I have found the Sienna to be a good tow vehicle for my needs.  We fill it
up with all the camping stuff, the family of 4 and go, about 5-9 times per
year.  The Sienna itself has held up very well, with only the normal stuff
replaced.  The transmission is just fine and I expect it to continue to be
just fine through the next half of its life.

A class II hitch is for loads up to 3500 pounds, 350 pounds tongue weight.
The square hole is 1 1/4 inches across.  A class III has more capacity than
you will need, but has the advantage of using the 2 inch receptacle.  You
will find that other accessories that plug into the hitch receptacle, like
bike carriers and cargo platforms and even propellers <grin> for when you
are not towing, commonly come in the 2 inch size and _much_ less frequently
come in the 1-1/4 inch size.  The class III is also more expensive.  You
will need to get the wiring done for the trailer lights too.
Tomes
Tomes - 19 May 2006 03:22 GMT
>>I have unexpectedly been given a pop-up camper.  We don't have the tow
>> package for our 2001 Sienna, so its towing capacity is 2000 lbs.  The
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> too.
> Tomes

One more item I forgot to add in my real life experience with Sienna towing,
I have not used the overdrive override switch, allowing it to use all the
gears, and this has not proven to be a problem at 178K miles either.  It
does not hunt for gears for me.
Tomes
eddie07 - 15 May 2006 12:07 GMT
Burke wrote:
<<<<I have unexpectedly been given a pop-up camper.  We don't have the
tow
package for our 2001 Sienna, so its towing capacity is 2000 lbs. >>>

I'd check in with the Sienna newsgroups and see what their experiences
are. I've posted my experience with an 03 Odyssey which seems similar.
Weigh the camping equipment on a scale . I'd guess around 350 pounds
but that could vary widely .  I'd get an after market efficient tranny
cooler, prodigy brake controller,and  airbag suspension for the rear if
available.I took out the second row seats( minus 150#?) , "family
weight " 450 lbs, installed a class 2 hitch.
I get  20+ mpg, 24mpg  without.  Tows great . No problems so far 3000
miles  See Tome's post for more experienced view.

eddie07
Steph - 15 May 2006 21:16 GMT
> I have unexpectedly been given a pop-up camper.  We don't have the tow
> package for our 2001 Sienna, so its towing capacity is 2000 lbs.  The
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Thanks!

I know I am late to the party here, but I have lots of experience with
OVERLOADING a Dodge minivan.

The differences between your vehicle without the factory tow package
(2000 lbs) and with a tow package (3500 lbs) equate to the weight of your
newly acquired trailer; hopefully this emphasizes it should not be taken
lightly.

Those tow package differences are likely to be:
higher output alternator
higher output battery
stiffer shocks/struts
additional oil cooler
additional transmission cooler
heftier brakes/pads

You can research to find the actual differences.

As for pulling and power, the lack of additional fluid coolers with
eventually take a toll on the vehicle. Overheating on grades is more
likely as well. These coolers can be added - and many times aftermarket
items are better in many ways - but of course might void your warranty
coverage.
But the feel good answer is, yes, your 01 Sienna can "pull" this popup.

What about stopping?
Whether you have the tow package or not, you will want brakes on the
trailer. This might cost you $400 or more! But many states have varying
weight requirements for a trailer and your may not specifically require
them (and wouldn't need to if your tow vehicle was a big 1-ton truck with
a 5 liter diesel). But when you are closer to the limits of the tow
vehicle you need the electric brakes.

You already addressed the actual load and weight handling.
Many try to only load their tow vehicles to 75% of the rating; this
allows room for extra food, water, error, or maybe a souvenir boulder or
two :)
Sounds like your 1400 lb trailer will easily balloon to 1650 or so when
"wet", and your current rating of 2000 lbs minus the 700 lbs of family
people leave only 1300 lbs of max capacity --- so with or without gear as
equiped you should not pull a 1400 lb trailer.

Other things to consider are the terrain you will be traversing.
I drive hundreds of miles and go from sea level to 10,000 foot peaks - so
scrimping on the safety factor is bad.  If you are going to pull it along
a level sparsely travelled road you can get by closer to the limits.

So can your vehicle pull and safely manage such a trailer?
IMHO, not currently. It could probably be outfitted to do so in a safe
manner (although still barely as your total family/cargo weights barely
leave enough capacity for the camper).  Do I think you should go buy a
tow vehicle? Well, yes and no - and I think the justifications are above.

Good Luck!
altar@nospam.net - 15 May 2006 22:21 GMT
>Sounds like your 1400 lb trailer will easily balloon to 1650 or so when
>"wet", and your current rating of 2000 lbs minus the 700 lbs of family
>people leave only 1300 lbs of max capacity --- so with or without gear as
>equiped you should not pull a 1400 lb trailer.

He can't possibly get by with just 250lbs of cargo. Full propane tank,
40 pounds. Battery, if equipped, 60 pounds. Water (15 gallons?) 8
pounds to the gallon = 120lbs.
He'll be lucky by the time the gear gets in there to have less than
650lb of cargo weight in the trailer. Been there, done that.

Tom
Steph - 18 May 2006 21:38 GMT
>>Sounds like your 1400 lb trailer will easily balloon to 1650 or so
>>when "wet", and your current rating of 2000 lbs minus the 700 lbs of
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Tom

Sorry to have misled you.
My own trailer is 1410 dry and 1650 wet.
Just some dishes, couple extra blankets, propane and battery.
I don't carry water, as I live at sea-level and usually travel to the
mountains (which is where the water originated). Doesn't make sense to
use the gas to haul that extra 100 lbs back up to 10,000 feet.

I did state that as described his setup was not satisfactory in my book.
altar@nospam.net - 18 May 2006 22:09 GMT
>My own trailer is 1410 dry and 1650 wet.
>Just some dishes, couple extra blankets, propane and battery.
>I don't carry water, as I live at sea-level and usually travel to the
>mountains (which is where the water originated). Doesn't make sense to
>use the gas to haul that extra 100 lbs back up to 10,000 feet.

Wow! you travel light. How do you get away with no water though? We
generally need the same amount at 10,000 feet as at sea level.

Tom
Steph - 19 May 2006 16:25 GMT
altar@nospam.net wrote in news:ehop62p8pbc58i16gpe7v2fihgaovgehq8@
4ax.com:

>>My own trailer is 1410 dry and 1650 wet.
>>Just some dishes, couple extra blankets, propane and battery.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Tom

Not sure if you are just funning with me here or what.
But the water available in the campgrounds is much preferable to what we
could bring with us. Plus I have not filled my water hold in the camper
is about 3 years now, instead using portable 5 gallon jugs I fill and
leve on the table outside. I gave up my on-demand pump, water heater, and
messing with a grey water collection.

In fact we cook virtually all of our meals over an open fire and do not
use the propane range either.  We do use the lights and propane heater
(in the mornings).

As you can see, we partake and enjoy in dry-camping.
Oh, and btw, you generally need MORE water at elevation than sea-level as
your body dehydrates more rapidly in the higher alitudes.
altar@nospam.net - 19 May 2006 17:00 GMT
>altar@nospam.net wrote in news:ehop62p8pbc58i16gpe7v2fihgaovgehq8@
>4ax.com:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>Oh, and btw, you generally need MORE water at elevation than sea-level as
>your body dehydrates more rapidly in the higher alitudes.

Actually I was hoping that you didn't partake of surface water
directly (Giardia).
It never occured to me that you would be in a campground that actually
had water. Now what you say makes sense.
We so rarely end up in places with the luxury of water or anything
else, i a.s/u/med that you were doing the same. My bad.

Tom
Steph - 19 May 2006 23:05 GMT
>>altar@nospam.net wrote in news:ehop62p8pbc58i16gpe7v2fihgaovgehq8@
>>4ax.com:
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Tom

Aah,  and I have my trusty (and not rusty) ceramic filter for when I am
not in campground as well - soi can if needed filter off drinking water.

Have a good weekend
someone@somewhere.org - 15 May 2006 23:02 GMT
> What about stopping?
> Whether you have the tow package or not, you will want brakes on the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a 5 liter diesel). But when you are closer to the limits of the tow
> vehicle you need the electric brakes.

Good advice.

> You already addressed the actual load and weight handling.
> Many try to only load their tow vehicles to 75% of the rating; this
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> people leave only 1300 lbs of max capacity --- so with or without gear as
> equiped you should not pull a 1400 lb trailer.

Where do you get 2000lbs - 700 lbs of family leaving 1300lbs of max
capacity???  Towing capacity = the lessor of the stated towing capacity or
GCVWR - curb weight and contents of the car.

The OP clearly stated -
"The maximum gross weight of van, trailer, passengers and cargo is 6900
lbs. The dry weight of the camper is 1400 lbs., the curb weight of the
van is 3912 lbs, and our family is in the neighborhood of 700 lbs,
leaving 888 for cargo, etc."

6900 - 3912 - 700 = 2288 lbs.  That means the maximum trailer that can be
towed is 2000lbs as stated  even with a 700 lb family (and no gear in the
car). Considering the towing package doesn't include changes to the rear
springs or brakes and allows a 3500lb towing capacity I'd be willing to
try towing a full 2k lb trailer with it.  Again the OP already has the
car and the trailer.  Hook it up and see how it handles.  Then find a
scale.  If everything seems good buy an aftermarket transmission cooler.
altar nospam - 16 May 2006 02:39 GMT
>Considering the towing package doesn't include changes to the rear
>springs or brakes and allows a 3500lb towing capacity I'd be willing to
>try towing a full 2k lb trailer with it.  Again the OP already has the
>car and the trailer.  Hook it up and see how it handles.  Then find a
>scale.

You are a clear and present danger to the public. Please let me know
when you "try" to tow something what road you will be on, so I can be
elsewhere to avoid the accident.

Tom
Steph - 18 May 2006 21:48 GMT
>> What about stopping?
>> Whether you have the tow package or not, you will want brakes on the
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> handles.  Then find a scale.  If everything seems good buy an
> aftermarket transmission cooler.

I was picking and choosing my numbers,
Basically, the manual states (indepent of listed gross vehicle or
combined gross vehicle weights) he can tow 2,000 lbs as equipped without
the factory tow package. The manuals also say this figure is the maximum
given no other passengers or cargo beside the driver.

If his passenger and cargo consume 700 lbs I stand that he only has 1,300
lbs capacity left over for safe driving and handling. To be specific I
would relate that to the components of the vehicle versus the entire
vehicle. I have driven a mini-van with 6 adults in it, and I might as
well be pulling a 1400 lb trailer when trying to stop or negotiate turns.

Besides, even using your calculation, if you also account for the 75%
rule that leaves 1,716 lbs.  Another poster felt the wet weight of the
trailer would be very close to that number. You might be willing to try
it, but speaking as someone that blew the rear shoes and overheated the
pads so bad they cracked into thirds with a similar weight ratio combo, I
would not do it, and would advise against it.

Although, when all is said and done the person will do what they will;
hopefully they at least hook it all up and take it to the scales for real
numbers and assess then.

One year I had an extra passenger and ended up taking a second car, aside
from the gas cost that trip turned out to very pleasant.
someone@somewhere.org - 19 May 2006 14:31 GMT
> I was picking and choosing my numbers,
> Basically, the manual states (indepent of listed gross vehicle or
> combined gross vehicle weights) he can tow 2,000 lbs as equipped without
> the factory tow package. The manuals also say this figure is the maximum
> given no other passengers or cargo beside the driver.

That is not always the case with Toyotas.  Do you have a Sienna manual?

> Besides, even using your calculation, if you also account for the 75%
> rule that leaves 1,716 lbs.  Another poster felt the wet weight of the
> trailer would be very close to that number. You might be willing to try
> it, but speaking as someone that blew the rear shoes and overheated the
> pads so bad they cracked into thirds with a similar weight ratio combo, I
> would not do it, and would advise against it.

Okay.  I was considering a reasonably intelligent driver using a vehicle in
a proper working state and some common sense.  How exactly do you do that to
your brake pads?  Did you drag the brakes for 20 miles down a mountain rather
than downshift the transmission to use engine braking and/or pull over to
let the brakes cool?  Did you not notice the hot brake smell long before
this happened?
Steph - 19 May 2006 16:43 GMT
>> I was picking and choosing my numbers,
>> Basically, the manual states (indepent of listed gross vehicle or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> That is not always the case with Toyotas.  Do you have a Sienna
> manual?

I have neither a Toyota or manual for one


>> Besides, even using your calculation, if you also account for the 75%
>> rule that leaves 1,716 lbs.  Another poster felt the wet weight of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> engine braking and/or pull over to let the brakes cool?  Did you not
> notice the hot brake smell long before this happened?

Wow, goota love usenet; where else can someone get so cocky to insult
another person without any knowledge? Fortunately I am not thin-skinned
and am in a good mood this morning.

Feel free to google my history in this newsgroup and you can read all
about it. I have plenty of driving and towing experience and am
considered by many to be reasonably intelligent.
The combination was within the gross combined. The only thing at near the
maximum was the tongue weight (235 lbs rated at 250).  Though the rear
axle was under the max. The trailer was 2250 wet and had hydraulic
brakes.
The TV was in fine shape prior, and within the listed limits of loads.

Unfortunately my route included a 14 mile grade at 12%. Despite starting
from a stop at the top in the lowest gear, the transmission began to heat
up and up-shifted. At which point I needed to use brakes to hold it down
to 35MPH or less (yes I was going much slower in low before). The
hydraulic brakes did not work effectively with the minimal drag the
engine put on the TV, since the trailer was half the TV's curb weight. I
used the TV's brakes and tried to maintain speed without burning the
brakes, but the trailer was pushing us too hard. As we reached the very
bottom of the grade the brakes had just about given up (out).

Again, I was within weight limits, but did not have that extra 25% for
the extreme terrain situation. Oh, and above that should have been "blew
the rear shocks (not shoes)" as I had 4-wheel disc.

Which now goes back to relaying my experience and the OP's question about
whether the setup would be adequate. The book numbers don't always take
into account the extremes,  high temps, cross-winds, stop and go traffic,
high alititude (where you lose HP as you climb into less oxygenated air),
tongue weighting, no brakes versus hydraulic versus electric brakes,
terrain, etc.

Can he pull that pop-up down the road to a storage space? You bet.
Can he load it up for a week long trip with 6 people? I wouldn't bet it
to be the safest rig out there based on my own epxerience.

Am I saying don't do it or I am going to call the cops? No, c'mon be an
adult will ya; I am just relaying my experience and thoughts on the
topic. The advice is free, take it or leave it -- but don't tax me for
it.
RichA - 16 May 2006 18:24 GMT
>I have unexpectedly been given a pop-up camper.  We don't have the tow
>package for our 2001 Sienna, so its towing capacity is 2000 lbs.  The
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>Thanks!
Hi,
With 888 pounds left over for stuff you will be very close to being at
the maximum GCWR when you add in gas for the tow vehicle, propane tanks,
water, clothing, food, battery, coolers etc.  Also I believe that the
maximum tow rating weight for the Sienna is for a trailer with brakes.
You might want to find out what the maximum weight Toyota says is OK for
a trailer without brakes if the pop up you have doesn't have any.

Front wheel drive vans and vans with unibody construction are not the
best tow vehicles.  There is no frame to attach the hitch to on unibody
vehicles and you put a big strain on the transmission and drive train
when towing with front wheel drive vehicles.  Most cars and light vans
built today are not designed for towing, the reason for the low tow
ratings.  They are only good for towing a light utility trailer for
picking items up from Home Depot, hauling trash etc.

What will happen if you tow with this vehicle?   Who knows?  For one it
will depend upon where you are planning on going with the pop up.  In
the flat the 210 HP (max HP at 5800 RPM not likely you will be reving
the engine that fast all the time except going up hills) 220 ft. lb.
torque engine might be ok.  On any hills or hilly terrain it will
struggle.  In the mountains out west it will crawl, as in some places in
the east.  Same thing going down the mountains will the brakes hold up
especially if the pop up doesn't have any?

You need to get a hitch that can handle the hitch weight of the fully
loaded pop up, usually 10-12 percent of the fully loaded weight.   As
for the maximum tongue weight ratings for the tow vehicle being 200 lbs.
that's probably to make sure you don't tow to big of a trailer with a
hitch that isn't attached to the frame :)  Only thing that can lower
that is a weight distributing hitch.  I don't know if they make a weight
distributing hitch for a trailer with that low of a tongue weight, they
might.   As hitch sizes go up Class II, III, IV tongue weight limits for
the hitches increase as do their towing capacities.  Is this 200 lb.
tongue wight limit in the book based on the size of the hitch?  Or is it
a limit on the vehicle no matter the hitch size?  If I were you I would
contact Toyota and ask them about the tongue weight limits.

You can tow a pop up or travel trailer with a garden tractor.  Towing
it easily and safely and stopping it the same is another matter.  Mini
vans, especially unibody front wheel drive, were not designed as tow
vehicles, no matter what you see them pulling around or what their
owners say.

Take care and Happy Campin...
Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

 
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