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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / June 2006

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Converter Toast?

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shwood@dynsols.com - 04 Jun 2006 17:12 GMT
Hi,

We just arrived home from our first trip in our new (to us) '01 Mesa. Since
it rained for the past 2 days, I had to pack it wet and then set it up again
in the yard once we arrived home.

I hooked up the electrical to the house and plugged in a small portable
electric heater in the camper (the same one that we run when we are
camping). I was attempting to dry it out some. A few hours later, the fuse
has tripped on the converter and there was a smell of something burning
coming from the converter. After switching the fuse back on, I have lights
and power in the camper.

With the smell of something burning, I'm pretty nervous about the safely and
reliability of the converter. Should it be replaced, how can I ensure that
it's working safely and properly?

Thanks for any suggestions.
RichA - 04 Jun 2006 17:45 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
>Thanks for any suggestions.

Hi,
You should at least have it looked at and try to find out why it
tripped the circuit breaker and see if there is any noticeable damage to
the inside of the converter.   The converter should only work the 12V
lights and anything else 12V you may have and if it has a charger
section charge the batteries.  It should not have anything to do with
any 120V power outlets.  They should be on a separate circuit from the
converter.  So if you had any 12V items turned on they would be suspect
as to maybe causing a short and overloading the converter, as would the
condition of the battery if the converter has a charger section.  You
may have gotten water in somewhere where it shouldn't have been.  It's
also possible of course that the converter is going bad.

The only way you can test to see if it's working is to check the
outputs for the 12V power and the output for the charger section.  That
will only tell you if the thing is currently working OK or not.  You
would need to put it under load while doing that.   If you are not
familiar with working with electricity you should take it to a dealer or
find someone who knows how the converter/chargers battery system work
and have them check it out.

Take care and Happy Campin...
Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

shwood@dynsols.com - 04 Jun 2006 18:20 GMT
Thanks for the reply.

I have since pulled it out to see if there was any water/moisture behind it.
Sure enough, the space behind the converter was slightly wet.  I must have a
leak that got some water in there during the drive home.

If this is my problem, besides fixing my leak, should I replace my converter
as well?  Or do the same checks you mention below still hold?

Sheldon

> >Hi,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Take care and Happy Campin...
Chris Cowles - 04 Jun 2006 20:45 GMT
> If this is my problem, besides fixing my leak, should I replace my
> converter
> as well?  Or do the same checks you mention below still hold?

As part of fixing the leak, do an extensive search in the area for hidden
water damage. Water leaks can cause significant damage, because they're
often hidden. The damage occurs before you're aware there's a leak. Among
other things, get under the camper and poke around at the floor with a
screwdriver, looking for soft spots.
Signature

Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL

Jim Redelfs - 05 Jun 2006 02:01 GMT
> should I replace my converter as well?

Yes.

Especially if it is the original converter, a new, sophisticated converter
would be a MAJOR improvement for your 2001 camper.

The converter on my entry level travel trailer, bought new in May, 2000, died
a couple of years ago.  It began to STINK of burning insulation, so I didn't
take any chances - I replaced it.  My new, "smart" converter is really GREAT
for my battery as I like to "dry camp" with no electric hookup.

Good luck!
                :)
JR
Signature

           :)
JR

2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD
Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000

tobe - 05 Jun 2006 03:58 GMT
Many converters actually DO have something to do with 110 volt AC power.
Often the AC goes to the converter which has two or more circuit breakers in
the converter itself, as well as the 12 VDC section, with 4 or more fuses.

SO, you should test not only the 12 V DC power and what it goes to (usually
just the lights) but also the 110 VAC outlets.  If everything works OK, you
are probably OK to keep using it.

Most small pop-up converters are crap, and are made by Centurion (and other
names - I think World Friendship Co, or WFCO -  but by the same company)
Replacements are available on ebay for about $30 (and retail for over
$100!).  If you have to replace the converter, you should probably spend the
extra $$ and get a decent converter.   They start at about $200.  See, for
example:
http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-converters-electrical-batteries-1.htm

The problems with replacing a converter with a better one is mainly size -
will the new one fit in the old opening (probably not) or will you have to
cut a new opening.  And, is the new converter deeper than the old one, and
if so will it run into something so it won't fit.  Also, unless you are
pretty good with wiring, you will have to get someone else, such as the
dealer, to install it.

I'm afraid if you go to the pop-up dealer and ask him to replace the
converter, they will just install another crap one and charge you too much.
Ask about better converters and installed cost, then go home and look them
up on the Net to see what the retail price is.  The dealer probably has
them, because they are used in many Travel Trailers and other larger camping
units.  It takes an hour or less to install a new converter (more if one has
to enlarge the opening) so you can figure out if it is a fair price from
that.

Let us know what the tests show, and any other questions you have.

HTH and good luck
RichA - 05 Jun 2006 04:49 GMT
>Many converters actually DO have something to do with 110 volt AC power.
>Often the AC goes to the converter which has two or more circuit breakers in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>just the lights) but also the 110 VAC outlets.  If everything works OK, you
>are probably OK to keep using it.
Hi,
I've never seen a converter/charger with circuit breakers for the 120V
system.  Not to say they are not out there.  The circuit breaker panel
for the 120V are normally pretty close by but the converter chargers
themselves usually only have a fuse or sometimes a circuit breaker on
them in case of overload and are usually powered from a circuit breaker
on the 120V panel.  A converter/charger with built in 120 V circuit
breakers would be different for sure.

Take care and Happy Campin...
Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

Tony Wesley - 05 Jun 2006 06:01 GMT
>  I've never seen a converter/charger with circuit breakers for the 120V
> system.  Not to say they are not out there.

My converter is also my 120V distribution system.  It has 30 amp 120v
in, two 15 amp 120v circuits (with circuit breakers) and 8 amps of
unfiltered 12 V DC.
RichA - 06 Jun 2006 04:04 GMT
>>  I've never seen a converter/charger with circuit breakers for the 120V
>> system.  Not to say they are not out there.
>
>My converter is also my 120V distribution system.  It has 30 amp 120v
>in, two 15 amp 120v circuits (with circuit breakers) and 8 amps of
>unfiltered 12 V DC.
Hi Tony,
Live and learn I guess.   Who is the manufacturer of the converter with
the 120V circuit breakers built in?

Take care and Happy Campin...
Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

Tony Wesley - 06 Jun 2006 05:02 GMT
> Hi Tony,
>  Live and learn I guess.   Who is the manufacturer of the converter with
> the 120V circuit breakers built in?

Rich, sorry, I don't remember.  And it'll be a while before I get the
pop-up open.  It's in the garage and I'm recovering from a broken
fibula and badly dislocated ankle.

It's not a very good converter.  It supplied 8 amps max of DC that's
run through a full-wave rectifier.  Not even a capacitor on the output.
That's fine for lights but not for a radio.  And 8 amps isn't much.
On the other hand, it works.

> Take care and Happy Campin...

The same.
RichA - 07 Jun 2006 02:01 GMT
>> Hi Tony,
>>  Live and learn I guess.   Who is the manufacturer of the converter with
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>The same.
Hi,
Thanks for the comeback.   First priority is to heal up for sure !
Sorry to hear about your troubles hope you're up and about and get some
RV'ing in soon.

Take care and Happy Campin...
Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

AustinMN - 05 Jun 2006 18:44 GMT
> Hi,
>  I've never seen a converter/charger with circuit breakers for the 120V
> system.

<snip>
> RichA

And I have never seen one that didn't, outside of a Dark Side(tm).
It's easier (i.e. cheaper) for manufacturers to put in one converter
than to put in one converter and one power panel.

Austin
RichA - 06 Jun 2006 04:11 GMT
>> Hi,
>>  I've never seen a converter/charger with circuit breakers for the 120V
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Austin
Hi Austin,
I've seen lots of Inverters with separate 120 circuit breakers for the
120V power they supply but no Converters.  What is the name of the
manufacturer of the ones with the built in circuit breakers?  Live and
learn I guess.

Take care and Happy Campin...
Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

tobe - 06 Jun 2006 15:32 GMT
> I've seen lots of Inverters with separate 120 circuit breakers for the
> 120V power they supply but no Converters.  What is the name of the
> manufacturer of the ones with the built in circuit breakers?  Live and
> learn I guess.

The cheap Centurion, Elixir Industries (same company, I think), and WFCO
(nearly identical to Centurion)  units are integrated.  They are the
commonest converters in cheaper pop-ups, and they are just not very good
converters, despite what their literature says.  Some are available at the
site below starting at $107, and on e-bay for about $35 (some mark-up, eh?)

See:  http://www.bestconverter.com/product.asp?itemid=49&catid=63
RichA - 07 Jun 2006 02:30 GMT
>> I've seen lots of Inverters with separate 120 circuit breakers for the
>> 120V power they supply but no Converters.  What is the name of the
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>See:  http://www.bestconverter.com/product.asp?itemid=49&catid=63

Hi,
Ok, I see what you mean now.  Neat little things didn't have stuff like
that when we had our last pop up for sure, which was a looong while ago.
Now I can say I saw a converter with built in AC panel, thanks.

Only problem with the converter like that is if the converter goes you
have to replace it with one that also has the AC circuit breaker built
in or make your own. I think I would be looking at replacing it with an
Inteli-Power and a box for the circuit breakers.

Take care and Happy Campin...
Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

Jim Redelfs - 06 Jun 2006 13:43 GMT
> I've never seen a converter/charger with circuit breakers
> for the 120V system.  Not to say they are not out there.

Like you said, Rich, "Live and learn".  They're out there.

I assume the combination converters are generally relegated to SMALLER rigs,
surely including popup campers.  You can bet their use is CHEAPER than dealing
with TWO devices and their enclosures.

My bought new, 2000 Skamper Ultra 249 (cheap Thor) travel trailer had/has a
Centurion converter (25-amp?) that includes an integral 120VAC distribution
section, including appropriate breakers.

When the three-year-old OEM converter failed, I assisted my RV tech/friend in
its replacement with a high(er)-end converter.  The new unit, including that
company's version of an optional, plug-in "smart charger" control module, was
mounted in the area/void that is BEHIND the dead converter.  Cables, including
120VAC, were extended to the inside of the chassis of the dead unit to feed
the breaker panel that was/is integral to the old Centurion converter.  It was
a PERFECT retrofit.  Including the module and ostensibly using my friend's
company discount buying the items from his employer (RV sales/service outlet)
the expense came to just under $200.

The converter on my bought-new, 1987 Starcraft Galaxy, was a COMBINATION unit,
too, IIRC.  There was only ONE 120VAC circuit for the top-of-the-line camper
(sans shower & a/c) and was protected by a Pushmatic-type breaker.  The switch
was placed facing the foot space of the dinette and was the occasional subject
of dinnertime laughter when one of our three daughters would inadvertently
kick it with their heal and plunge us into darkness!
Signature

           :)
JR

2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD
Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000

RichA - 07 Jun 2006 02:40 GMT
>> I've never seen a converter/charger with circuit breakers
>> for the 120V system.  Not to say they are not out there.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>company discount buying the items from his employer (RV sales/service outlet)
>the expense came to just under $200.

<snipped>
Hi,
That's what I would do too.  It's worth is since the good converter
will probably last as long as the RV.  On the other hand if the RV is
only used once or twice a year you can replace several of the cheaper
ones for the cost of one good one.

My last pop up didn't have fancy stuff like that :)  A plug and a
circuit breaker or a fuse can't recall which :)  That was 34 or more
years ago.  Boon docking was a Coleman lantern and the batteries were
for the flash lights.  I've seen panels with the AC circuit breakers and
DC fuses or circuit breakers all in there along with a converter.  In
those you could pull the converter out without bothering the AC.  These
look like you have to replace everything if the converter goes.  Thanks
for the info.

Take care and Happy Campin...

Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

RichA - 05 Jun 2006 04:40 GMT
>Thanks for the reply.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Sheldon

Hi,
I hate giving advise on electrical components, especially when I can't
see them :)  If it got wet and something shorted inside, then yes I
would replace it.  If you smelled something burning chances are
something has at least gotten cooked or hot, at least a little :)   If I
had it here I would take it out, open it up and see what I could see
looking for burnt spots or components, then run it under a high load.
If you are not comfortable with doing that and don't want to take it to
a dealer who you trust and spend the money to find out if it's still
good, then buying a new one is the way to go.  Or if it's a cheap one
then it's probably not worth the trouble to mess with it anyway.  They
are pretty easy to install and MOST new ones come with pretty good step
by step instructions.

Most converters that come with pop ups are typically not the best in
the world for sure.  Many would even say they are crap as a matter of
fact :)   That said how you use the RV might be what determines how much
you want to spend for a converter/charger.  If you use the RV a lot you
might want to put a little more money in and get a good one.  If not one
of the cheaper ones might do.  The better one will more then likely out
live the RV.

 A good 30 amp Intellipower (which should be big enough for a pop up)
will set you back about $170.00.  If you want to,  you can add a Charge
Wizard for $24.00 to add 3 stage battery charging to the
converter/charger to keep your batteries happy.   The 30 amp one is
pretty small about 5 X 7 X 9.  The larger amp ones are bigger of course
and you should check and make sure any new one can fit in the opening
you have or that you can easily enlarge the area.

Hope you find where the water came in and that it's an easy fix.
That's not a good area to have water entering for sure :)

<bunch snipped>

Take care and Happy Campin...
Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

shwood@dynsols.com - 14 Jun 2006 18:35 GMT
Thanks for all of the replies.

It turns out the breaker was causing the odor.  I pulled it out and
sure enough it was the source.  I bought a new one today and will be
installing it tonight.  Here is a link to the breaker that I have:

http://www.bestcircuitbreakers.com/Circuit-Breakers/Cutler-Hammer/BD/BD1515.html
?gclid=CJqo9L6pxoUCFRg7GgodIVzqpg


Sheldon

> >Thanks for the reply.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Take care and Happy Campin...
 
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