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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / July 2006Trailer brakes not working - ground problem??
I had after-market trailer brakes added to my 1993 Starcraft thanks to advice from this newsgroup. Now they are not working. Specifically, there is no electrical connection that is making a difference to my Techonsa controller. At first, it was intermittent, now it is permanent. I suspect ground problem, but the back of the brake drums on each side only has two wires which I've followed to the connector. Could there be a ground wire in one or both of the drums? I don't want to pull the wheels apart if there is nothing there to find. Could it be problem with the controller? Does anyone have a schematic of normal brake electrical system? Any suggestions or sites to visit would be greatly appreciated as we moved to Calgary and now go to the Rocky Mountains alot and I'd like to have the brakes back. Thanks in advance. Chris http://www.championtrailers.com/brkart.html#electric_brakes http://www.easternmarine.com/em_store/trailerbrakes/trailerbrakes_ele.html Those links might or might not help...I lost all of the links, including brake diagrams, when I rebuilt my hard drive not too long ago. You might get more help from others but what I have found is this. You can't really check the brakes unless you are hooked up to your tow vehicle or use a battery charger to supply power, while you jack up one side of the trailer and then the other to see which brakes are working and which are not. If nether brake is working (the chances of both magnets failing at the same time is slim) it is probably an electrical connection. No more difficult to check than a lamp cord. Also, when was the last time, mileage wise that you adjusted your brakes - they are not self adjusting you know... john >I had after-market trailer brakes added to my 1993 Starcraft thanks to >advice from this newsgroup. Now they are not working. Specifically, there [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Chris Asadi: There is some really helpful info in these websites, particularly the Champion one. If I follow all the instructions and can borrow a multi meter, I should be able to figure this thing out. Thanks. Chris > http://www.championtrailers.com/brkart.html#electric_brakes > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> >> Chris Check the connections for the brakes inside both plugs Check the wires for breaks or shorts. Check the connections to the brake controller. Try powering the brakes from your battery through the trailer harness bypassing the tow vehicle wiring. These should help you pinpoint the trouble area. > I had after-market trailer brakes added to my 1993 Starcraft thanks to > advice from this newsgroup. Now they are not working. Specifically, there is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Chris > I had after-market trailer brakes added to my 1993 Starcraft thanks to > advice from this newsgroup. Now they are not working. Specifically, there is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Chris Which controller are you using? Does you controller “see” the trailer as being connected.? Is the gain setting proper? When you use the manual lever does anything happen. Do you get an indication of power to the brakes? Lights or a voltage reading if you have a prodigy? Since it was previously intermittent I expect it could be either the controller or wiring. Do you have a multi-meter? If so you should be able to measure a very low resistance on the trailer plug from Pin 2 (brake) to Pin 1 (ground). Do you have a breakaway switch on the trailer (and a trailer battery)? If so when not connected to the tow vehicle you should be able to lock up the trailer brakes by pulling the switch. If you don’t have one of those switches, and assuming you have a trailer battery and a 7 pin connector on the trailer, you should be able to lock up the brakes by applying 12 volts from the trailer battery to pin 2 on the connector. (jump from pin 4 (positive) to pin 2 (brake)). Or connect a battery from pin 4 (positive) to pin 1 (ground). If the trailer running lights work I would expect that the ground wire from the trailer to the tow vehicle is OK. The most difficult is probably to verify the wire from the controller to the trailer. Just a comment that may save you some time. The running lights on the trailer can work if the ground wire in the trailer plug is not good. I have trouble-shot a few trailers that the ground appears to be good, ie the lights work only to find that the ground was going through the ball. Sometimes it appears as though the ground through the ball can support enough current to make the lights work, but not enought to make the brakes work. If you do have a breakaway switch I would agree with the other person that indicated you could start testing by disconnecting the trailer from the tow vehicle and pull the switch and see if the brakes lock up. If they do, you can start by testing that from the brake wire in the trailer plug to the ground wire in the trailer plug has 12V when the breakaway switch is pulled. If it does, then you probably have a problem on the TV, if it doesn't then you probably have a problem on the trailer. Hope that helps, Brian > > I had after-market trailer brakes added to my 1993 Starcraft thanks to > > advice from this newsgroup. Now they are not working. Specifically, there is [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > The most difficult is probably to verify the wire from the controller to > the trailer. > Just a comment that may save you some time. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Hope that helps, > Brian Good point. I forgot to say to disconnect. I accidentally pulled the break away switch on my 5th wheel and did not damage the prodigy but don't risk it. I threw something into the bed of the truck (on top of the cable) and as I was making a sharp turn while backing up the trailer brakes froze up tight!! Rich: I am using a Tekonsha controller. It does not "see" the trailer (the "power" light does not come on) - it used to intermittently. Your second set of questions is not applicable in light of the first answer. I don't have a multimeter, a break away switch or a trailer battery -- older - '93 pop-up :( There are lots of good suggestions in these replies. Thanks. Tonight I had to "repair" my computer. Tomorrow night I'll work on the trailer, again. I'll post back here with either more questions or good news. >> I had after-market trailer brakes added to my 1993 Starcraft thanks to >> advice from this newsgroup. Now they are not working. Specifically, there [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > The most difficult is probably to verify the wire from the controller to > the trailer. Which Tekonsha? Prodigy, Envoy, Voyager? So if the power light doesn't come on you need to check the power line from the battery to the controller. Should be a fuse somewhere in the line as well. Since it was intermittent I will guess it is a loose connection. Check the power line connection at the controller and at the battery. And check the ground wire on the controller. I know that the Prodigy gets a light just when power is on and not even connected to the trailer. I forgot if the others have any indication of power. > Rich: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to "repair" my computer. Tomorrow night I'll work on the trailer, again. > I'll post back here with either more questions or good news. Rich It is a Voyager XP. There is a diode light on top that should come on when the trailer is connected. I tried several things today: 1. Checked battery connections - seem good 2. Checked controler connections - can't find a fuse in the cabling - it is grounded to the dash with a sticker on the wire that says don't do that as it may operate intermittently - for the first few years it worked fine. 3. Checked all the connections in the vehicle and trailer connectors - they were fine. 4. Can get 12.6 volts accross the brake line all the time (going to ground) at the vehicle connector and at the "on trailer" connector - a plug on the frame of the trailer. Lights all work when the trailer is disconnected and just the cabling is hooked up. 5. Don't get a continuity connection between the ground and brake line on the trailer connector. Think I got one on the vehicle connector, but I'm not sure I remember that for sure. 6. Haven't looked in the wheels - not really sure how much I have to take apart and don't want to dig too far if I don't have to. 7. No light on the controller. 8. Haven't got a spare battery or one on the trailer and the websites advise using a fuse to protect against shorting, and I haven't got any fuse. Seems to me it is either the controller that is shot or there is a break in the cable(s) after the frame mounted connector. Any other ideas or strategies? Chris > Which Tekonsha? Prodigy, Envoy, Voyager? > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> had to "repair" my computer. Tomorrow night I'll work on the trailer, >> again. I'll post back here with either more questions or good news. First thing is to get that green LED to light when you hook up the trailer. Be sure the trailer plug contacts are nice and clean. You need to check for voltage on the power line to the controller. Measure the voltage from the the black wire on the controller to ground. You have to have a fuse somewhere in that line. Is it a factory wire harness? If it is an after market the fuse is probably an in-line one somewhere under the hood. I can't help much there. The only factory fuse I am really familiar with is the GM HD Truck. The 12 volt power line voltage dropping when you press the brake could just be the brake lights coming on. That has nothing to do with anything on the brake power lines. If you get 12 volts at all times on the brake line I get the impression you might be measuring the wrong pins. If you are using the wrong side of the connector you could well be measuring the 12 volt power line. Looking into the tow vehicle connector with the guide slot on top you the pins are: (3)Tail lights / \ (4) +12 (5) LH Turn | | (6) RH Turn (1) Ground \ / (2) Brake http://www.rverscorner.com/wiring/index.html I you are using diagrams such as: http://marksrv.com/wiring.htm Note that is the inside back of the connector and reverse of the outside. Did you look at Tekonsha's problem list? http://www.tekonsha.com/faqvoyager.html > Rich > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >> connected to the trailer. I forgot if the others have any indication of >> power. I have not seen you menton anything about the Tekonsha sert up.. 1. Is it properly grounded directly to the battery? 2. brake trailer ground direct to the Trailer, then to the trailer/vehicle plug harness? 3. Tekonsha's troub leshooting website is excellrnt for diagnosing and sloving problems. troubleshoot.... lots more ideas on the site. good luck. Bk > I have not seen you menton anything about the Tekonsha sert up.. That was pretty much what I was referring to as the last item in the last post: http://www.tekonsha.com/faqvoyager.html I got the impression he was measuring the wrong pins on the connector. I doubt very much that it is anything internal to the wheels. As you point out to get the controller to "see" the controller the complete loop must be present. 12 volts to the controller and complete wire all the way to the brake magnets and then a complete ground all the way back to the battery in the tow vehicle. Since it was intermittent for a while I might suspect a poor connection inside of the tow vehicle connector. Or just a dirty connection. I was just thinking about making a jumper that could be hooked to the pins (1 and 2) of the tow vehicle. I will have to see what can be made up. The resistance of the brake magnets must be quite low. Perhaps a 12 volt lamp hooked across the brake to ground pin would look like a trailer to the controller. Maybe just a jumper wire would work but I would prefer using a lamp in case it should get hooked to the wrong pins. Rich & BK, Thanks for the website. Here's what I've discovered and figured out in the last couple of days: 1. The ground on the brake controller is not to the battery but to the dash -- with a tag on it saying "Do not attach to dash." 2. There is no fuse in the power wire to the controller. It goes directly to the "under the hood" fuse box terminal. I'm driving a '99 Grand Caravan. I had the brakes and controller installed after market. It looks like the guys who did the controller cut corners. 3. I've double checked the terminals and am very sure that I'm testing the voltage between the brake line and ground both at the vehicle connector and at the "on the trailer frame" junction box. It sits at 12.6 with nothing happening either from the brake pin to ground on the vehicle or on the connector on the vehicle or between the brake pin and ground on the trailer with the trailer not attached by the trailer hitch to the van (only the electrical connection). If you depress the brake pedal it drops by about a volt -- which Rich thought was because of the lights. 4. When I connect the brake pin and ground through the multimeter the LED light does not light up--the controller does not "see" anything. I kind of thought it might, but maybe the multimeter has too much resistance or something? 5. When I check the voltage between the controller power wire (at the fuse box terminal) and ground I get 12.6 volts. 6. I can not get any continuity between the brake pin and ground pin (or vehicle ground) either on the trailer or on the vehicle connectors. That, I believe, means there is not a complete circuit either on the trailer or on the vehicle, but maybe I'm not understanding that. (I'm not an electrical genius.) I'm going to go to the Tekonsha site and see what help I can get there. Thanks, Chris >> I have not seen you menton anything about the Tekonsha sert up.. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > the controller. Maybe just a jumper wire would work but I would prefer > using a lamp in case it should get hooked to the wrong pins. > Rich & BK, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 1. The ground on the brake controller is not to the battery but to the > dash -- with a tag on it saying "Do not attach to dash." That should not be a problem as long as it is a good ground location. If you see a bolt that looks more like a frame connection it might be worth moving it there. However, that should not be your problem. > 2. There is no fuse in the power wire to the controller. It goes directly to > the "under the hood" fuse box terminal. I'm driving a '99 Grand Caravan. I > had the brakes and controller installed after market. It looks like the guys > who did the controller cut corners. It would be worthwhile to put in a fuse. Just get an inline fuse holder and put it in the line. > 3. I've double checked the terminals and am very sure that I'm testing the > voltage between the brake line and ground both at the vehicle connector and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > electrical connection). If you depress the brake pedal it drops by about a > volt -- which Rich thought was because of the lights. This is an item that sort of confuses me. Maybe the Voyager is different in that area than the Prodigy. It could be that the voltage you are reading is what you might look at as the ground for the LED. If there is no ground it could read 12 volts. If so it indicates that there is an open from the connector to the brake magnets and to ground again. Can you read a resistance between the brake wire and ground (pins 1 and 2) on the trailer? > 4. When I connect the brake pin and ground through the multimeter the LED > light does not light up--the controller does not "see" anything. I kind of > thought it might, but maybe the multimeter has too much resistance or > something? Yeah, the multimeter has a very high input resistance. To accomplish what you want I think the resistance would have to be about 5 ohms. > 5. When I check the voltage between the controller power wire (at the fuse > box terminal) and ground I get 12.6 volts. > 6. I can not get any continuity between the brake pin and ground pin (or > vehicle ground) either on the trailer or on the vehicle connectors. That, I > believe, means there is not a complete circuit either on the trailer or on > the vehicle, but maybe I'm not understanding that. (I'm not an electrical > genius.) Ah, that is what I just asked above. Your problem is apparently in the trailer wiring. Since you don't see any resistance it means the connection to both wheels is missing. Is the plug a molded harness or one that can be opened? If molded the wires are connected to the brake wires at the end of the molded cable. Are the wires out of the wheels connected to the trailer wires with twist nuts? If so you could run a wire from there back to the front of the trailer to see if you can measure resistance in to each wire. Rich: I should also mention that the 12.6 volts at the end of the brake line to ground decreases to 11.4 or so when the brake pedal is depressed. Pushing the lever on the brake controller makes no difference no matter what the gain is turned to. Chris > Which Tekonsha? Prodigy, Envoy, Voyager? > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> had to "repair" my computer. Tomorrow night I'll work on the trailer, >> again. I'll post back here with either more questions or good news. |
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