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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / November 2006Running lights problem on a Coleman Folding camper
I bought both a used Ford Explorer and a 1990 Coleman Williamsburg. I am having trouble with the running lights on the trailer. I have a seven pin round plug on the trailer and I had a four pin flat on the Explorer changed over to a seven pin. Basically the four pin plugs into the seven pin. All lights work with the exception of the trailer running lights. It blows fuses in the Explorer fuse panel. I change them and the lights will work while I am parked but when I put on the accelerator I blow it. Anyone able to direct me where/how to track it down? thanks David In St Louis. Get rid of the Ford.  Signatureplease reply to bargerw NO @ SPAM bellsouth.net and remove the NOSPAM >I bought both a used Ford Explorer and a 1990 Coleman Williamsburg. I > am having trouble with the running lights on the trailer. I have a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > David In St Louis. Sorry about that. I could not resist. Please make sure you keep an eye on your tires. Can you hook the trailer up to anything else? To test the running lights out. Signatureplease reply to bargerw NO @ SPAM bellsouth.net and remove the NOSPAM > Get rid of the Ford. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> David In St Louis. > I bought both a used Ford Explorer and a 1990 Coleman Williamsburg. I > am having trouble with the running lights on the trailer. I have a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > David In St Louis. Brake and turn signals work properly when not moving? Probably a short that shows up when the trailer moves. I would be most suspicious of the tail lamp/ turn signal lamps. Could also be a wire that rubs on something when the trailer moves. Connector wiring: http://marksrv.com/wiring.htm > > I bought both a used Ford Explorer and a 1990 Coleman Williamsburg. I > > am having trouble with the running lights on the trailer. I have a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > suspicious of the tail lamp/ turn signal lamps. Could also be a wire > that rubs on something when the trailer moves. I agree. If it was on the Ford side, I would expect it to be a problem even if the trailer was not hooked up (but see exception below). I would start with the leads (wire/cable that is attached to the plug). Make sure there's no bare insulation or visible wear spots, especially where it enters the frame. I would pull out as much as I could without tugging on it and make sure it was in good shape. If it didn't have a jacket, I would wrap the whole bundle with a couple layers of electrical tape. If the Ford Exploder's connection has a plug on a lead (instead of a mounted plug), I would do the same to that. Austin I had an older trailer with an abraded brake light wire hidden inside the trailer body. Blew fuses every time I hit the brakes. It took some work to find. > Probably a short that shows up when the trailer moves. I would be most > suspicious of the tail lamp/ turn signal lamps. Could also be a wire > that rubs on something when the trailer moves. > I bought both a used Ford Explorer and a 1990 Coleman Williamsburg. I > am having trouble with the running lights on the trailer. I have a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > David In St Louis. I had the same set-up when I recently bought a 1991 Coleman Sequoia. I found out that plugging the original four pin connector into a seven pin on the vehicle would not work. I had to have the four pin removed and replaced with a seven pin, as the wiring is different. Also, I had to have a brake controller installed for the electric trailer brakes, which was then wired back to the seven pin connector on the vehicle. You might want to check this out further with an RV mechanic. Lynne Signature~ BACK TO BASICS ~ "You are what you eat" Sugar Substitutes ~ Recipes ~ Milk Myths Natural Healing ~ Disease Prevention & Reversal http://www.geocities.com/mayflower1ca > I bought both a used Ford Explorer and a 1990 Coleman Williamsburg. I > am having trouble with the running lights on the trailer. I have a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > accelerator I blow it. Anyone able to direct me where/how to track it > down? thanks Is it possible that improper wiring was done on your Ford? Many vehicles electrical system can't handle the load of the trailers lights being put in parallel with the tow vehicles lights. They need a relay to isolate the current draw from the tow vehicles lights and instead pull power through their own fuse. Another possibility is a bad ground connection to your Fords connector or a bad ground between your Ford and the trailer. That would cause excessive current to be drawn. >> I bought both a used Ford Explorer and a 1990 Coleman Williamsburg. I >> am having trouble with the running lights on the trailer. I have a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > or a bad ground between your Ford and the trailer. That would cause > excessive current to be drawn. Why would a bad ground cause excess current? A bad ground would result in less current and the lights not working. He has to have a short on the power lines. > Why would a bad ground cause excess current? A bad ground would result > in less current and the lights not working. I've seen it happen many times. I believe the light will attempt to pull the same wattage no matter what. > > Why would a bad ground cause excess current? A bad ground would result > > in less current and the lights not working. > > I've seen it happen many times. I believe the light will attempt to > pull the same wattage no matter what. Sure you have. Light bulbs are a resistive load. Go look up Ohms Law. A bad ground is resistive (poor connection) or open (no connection). In either case, the light bulb will draw less current, not more. A bad ground can not blow fuses. It is a physical impossibility. A short to ground (which Rich256 mentioned but you snipped) can. Another possibility is a miswired hot ground, but that would be almost impossible to get to blow fuses in a 12V system. But that is a miswired ground, not the same thing as a bad ground. I was going to ask Rich's question, but decided to let it go. When he asked and you spouted such garbage, I had to respond. Austin >>> Why would a bad ground cause excess current? A bad ground would result >>> in less current and the lights not working. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Austin It all gets back to that it works when not moving. Or at least I assume that. The only question is if the brake and turn signals work when not moving. But I really can't think of any way they might cause the fuse to blow (applying a ground by some mysterious way). But as you know sometimes confusing things do happen. You obviously have worked with electronics. Me too. Including lots of work with Aircraft to Satellite and have seen enough strange results to not get too firm in my conclusions. But the most mysterious have always been repairs by a homeowner. Such as a neighbor who was blowing fuses with his freezer. I found the thermostat had been wired directly across the power line. Finally realized that it had been connected up with the box being cold so the compressor ran all the time. When the box got warm by the wife loading it with bread the thermostat closed, blew the fuse and I got called in. I found the problem quickly enough but took some detective work to come up with an explanation of how it got that way without immediately blowing the fuse. > >>> Why would a bad ground cause excess current? A bad ground would result > >>> in less current and the lights not working. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Aircraft to Satellite and have seen enough strange results to not get > too firm in my conclusions. You are correct, and I was a bit too hard on miles. I've been around long enough to know almost anything can happen at least once. (In all of life, not just electronics). > But the most mysterious have always been > repairs by a homeowner. Such as a neighbor who was blowing fuses with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > detective work to come up with an explanation of how it got that way > without immediately blowing the fuse. Some "repair." I once owned a house where I found an outlet box *in the wall* with an extension cord plugged into it and the other end of the 18 gauge zip wire extension cord wired to an outlet. That was one of the smaller surprises. The first sign of trouble was the first night we lived there. When all the lights in the house were on, *all* the lights went out. Needless to say before very long I rewired the whole house. Austin >>>>> Why would a bad ground cause excess current? A bad ground would result >>>>> in less current and the lights not working. [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Austin The whole story is that the neighbor was quite new. He came over asking if I knew how to reset the circuit breaker. I soon found that the problem was an old Sears chest freezer. The wife being quite concerned that she had just filled it and everything was going to melt. I looked and the compressor was plugged directly into an extension cord and the thermostat had a cord that was directly plugged into the same cord. I soon told the guy what the problem was and that there was no way for it to run with the shorted thermostat plugged in (but I knew it had been running for at least a month). I said I could unplug the thermostat and the compressor would run all the time. He then said it always ran all the time. So I unplugged and got it going. He said a friend had given him the freezer quite a while ago and that and he had no problems. The week before an electrician friend had fixed the light. The light was hooked to a separate cord plugged into the wall. Well, I went away with the freezer running and very puzzled as to how it could have run at all. The next day while driving to work I was still mulling it over in my mind. Suddenly it hit!! That freezer originally came with a very special extension cord made so that when the compressor and thermostat were plugged in to it they were in series. Now I guess that when the previous owner had it something happened to the cord so he just used a normal cord. If he plugged in the thermostat it would blow a breaker so he just plugged in the compressor and it ran all the time. Then he gave it to my neighbor. As I see it, the week before his electrician friend was over and fixed the lamp. He noted that the thermostat was not plugged in so he plugged it in. The box was at about –20 degrees, the thermostat open and the compressor running all the time. No problem. The box stayed at –20 and the thermostat stayed open. Then the wife loaded it with warm bread. The box warmed up and the thermostat closed blowing the breaker. That is where I got called in. I went back that night and did a rewire job hooking the thermostat back in series and it began to cycle at the thermostat setting. It sure had me confused for a while. They had just moved in a month or so before. It was obvious that it was working. Initally common sense told me there was no way the it could have gotten started. >>>>>> Why would a bad ground cause excess current? A bad ground would >>>>>> result [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > so before. It was obvious that it was working. Initally common sense > told me there was no way the it could have gotten started. Forgot to mention that I had a little help as I had seen something similar before. My wife had a sewing machine where the motor and foot pedal plugged into what looked like an ordinary extension cord. The difference was that it put them in series. As I remember the socket was clearly labeled "Foot Pedal" and "Motor". Other than than it looked like an ordinary cord with two sockets. AustinMN wroe: > Light bulbs are a resistive load. Not a fixed resistance. > Go look up Ohms Law. True but you're making assumptions that may not be true. You are assuming everything else remains a constant. > A bad ground can not blow fuses. It is a physical impossibility. A > short to ground (which Rich256 mentioned but you snipped) can. In the case of a lightbulb a bad connection can. > I was going to ask Rich's question, but decided to let it go. When he > asked and you spouted such garbage, I had to respond. Some peoples kids. Good grief. > AustinMN wroe: > >> Light bulbs are a resistive load. > > Not a fixed resistance. So? what does that have to do with it? Impossible for a bad ground to blow fuses. Blowing fuses means you are drawing more current than the fuse can handle. A poor connection means more resistance and less current. >> Go look up Ohms Law. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > In the case of a lightbulb a bad connection can. A bad connection shorting power to ground, but not a bad ground. A short of the power to ground blows fuses. A poor ground prevents blowing or even lighting a lamp. >> I was going to ask Rich's question, but decided to let it go. When he >> asked and you spouted such garbage, I had to respond. > > Some peoples kids. Good grief. >> AustinMN wroe: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So? what does that have to do with it? Impossible for a bad ground to > blow fuses. Not impossible. You're thinking too simplistic and trying to relate ohms law with assumptions of known constants. The bulb is not a constant. Use a storage scope to record current in the circuit. Make and break the ground connection quickly several times and note the results on the scope. Think it will show the max current peaks exactly the same as a solid connection? > >> AustinMN wroe: > >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > scope. Think it will show the max current peaks exactly the same as a > solid connection? I know what you are getting at, (the resistance of an incadescent light bulb rises significantly as the bulb first lights up). In order to get that to blow fuses, you'd have to make/break about 20 times a second for 2-3 seconds. Not impossible, but to do it again and again? Not likely. In the process, you'd have opportunity to blow the fuses of the stop/turn signals (it is the same ground), which is not happening. Austin > I know what you are getting at, (the resistance of an incadescent light > bulb rises significantly as the bulb first lights up). In order to get > that to blow fuses, you'd have to make/break about 20 times a second > for 2-3 seconds. Not impossible, but to do it again and again? Not > likely. In the process, you'd have opportunity to blow the fuses of > the stop/turn signals (it is the same ground), which is not happening. That is what I'm getting at. As a bulb lights it's resistance rises significantly. If the ground is making and breaking then the bulb never heats up and it's resistance stays low. Depending on the duty cycle caused by the bad connection the current can rise and the fuse blows. Contrary to others posts, I have seen it and repaired such a problem several times. However, leakage to ground is a more common problem. >> I know what you are getting at, (the resistance of an incadescent light >> bulb rises significantly as the bulb first lights up). In order to get [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Contrary to others posts, I have seen it and repaired such a problem > several times. However, leakage to ground is a more common problem. I see but I still can't imagine the current could be of a duration to blow a fuse. I am trying to remember the specifications for general purpose fuses. It's been years since I looked at them but think it is 100% overload for one second. Brings up another question. What size fuse has he been using? And the big item is that his problem only happens when he pulls. And as Austin says to be repeatable under those conditions. I have never seen such a condition but must admit that most of my experience has not been with equipment that might commonly have poor grounds. Aircraft are always pretty well engineered in that area. Sorry, I just can't imagine that a poor ground causing a blown fuse being at best a very rare happening. Perhaps bulb failure from being turned on and off. > I see but I still can't imagine the current could be of a duration to > blow a fuse. I am trying to remember the specifications for general > purpose fuses. It's been years since I looked at them but think it is > 100% overload for one second. Brings up another question. What size > fuse has he been using? There are all types of fuses from fast blow to slow blow. It's also possible the fuse is too small if the trailer lights are drawing off the same circuit. Ideally a relay is used to isolate the draw to it's own circuit. >> I see but I still can't imagine the current could be of a duration to >> blow a fuse. I am trying to remember the specifications for general [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > same circuit. Ideally a relay is used to isolate the draw to it's own > circuit. What other circuit? It is the trailer light fuse that blows and I would expect it is on it's own circuit. He said the brake and turn signals continue to work. And of course a relay would not protect that fuse. > What other circuit? It is the trailer light fuse that blows and I would > expect it is on it's own circuit. He said the brake and turn signals > continue to work. And of course a relay would not protect that fuse. The OP said "It blows fuses in the Explorer fuse panel." I'm not familiar with Explorers but most vehicles I have worked on do not come from the factory with a separate set of fuses for trailer lights in the fuse panel. On all of my tow vehicles with factory tow package they have relay(s) and in line fuses installed. It's common for people with vehicles that do not have the factory tow package to wire up their tow vehicle by simply splicing into the tail light wires without the use of any relays. That puts the trailers lights in parallel with the tow vehicle lights thus increasing the current draw on the tow vehicles tail light fuses. The proper way to wire it is to use a relay (could be a solid state module) that isolates the current draw from the tow vehicles fuse panel and allows separate fuses to be used for all trailer lights. > > I know what you are getting at, (the resistance of an incadescent light > > bulb rises significantly as the bulb first lights up). In order to get [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Contrary to others posts, I have seen it and repaired such a problem > several times. I could believe you've fixed it a few times. It is still a 1/500 chance that it's what's blowing the OP's fuses. A short is a 19/20 chance. It's this kind of statement: > However, leakage to ground is a more common problem. Is what gets me. We're talking about blowing fuses. *Leakage* will not blow fuses. *Leakage* is generally measured in milliamps. A household appliance with more than 10 milliamps of leakage current is considered defective. It would take 1,000 times as much current to blow a 10 amp fuse. Leakage can be caused by three things, and in practice only one of them applies to DC circuits. They are: 1) inappropriate high impedance resistive connection to ground 2) capacitive coupling to ground 3) inductive coupling to ground. Using the term "leakage" instead of the term "short" tells me you don't really know what you are talking about - they are two very different things. Austin >>> I know what you are getting at, (the resistance of an incadescent light >>> bulb rises significantly as the bulb first lights up). In order to get [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Austin There is this thing that if you have random noise, a wide spectrum of sine waves, there will come a time when they will all add up to one big pulse. But that is so random and takes so long it would not apply in this case. And the noise must be consistent. Still no answer on our questions. Applying the brakes doesn't fit any theory I can come up with to blow the running light fuse. Unless it causes a line to move and short. I had a weird problem with a car once. The battery would at times go dead for no apparent reason. Then one day when I stopped and turned the engine off there was a clicking noise under the dash. Carefully was able to get under the dash and found that the wire to the cigarette lighter was rubbing against the frame. It would make contact, draw current, heat up and break the contact. It was not making contact long enough to blow the fuse. Apparently, the battery eventually got so far down that it just stayed shorted and drained it totally dead. > There is this thing that if you have random noise, a wide spectrum of > sine waves, there will come a time when they will all add up to one big > pulse. But that is so random and takes so long it would not apply in > this case. And the noise must be consistent. I agree it probably is not the OP's issue at all. However, it is not all that rare. > It's this kind of statement: > >> However, leakage to ground is a more common problem. > > Is what gets me. We're talking about blowing fuses. *Leakage* will > not blow fuses. *Leakage* is generally measured in milliamps. Sigh...leakage simply means an alternative path. It does not mean milliamps. It does not need to be a direct solid short for an extended period to blow a fuse. Are you just into arguing or what? Let me add and clarify and tell you what I have found. The brake and turn lights continue to work after the parking/running lights fail. I put on a four wire flat diagnostic tool (led light thingy) and when the fuse is changed and still good the lights all light indicating the Truck seems to be wired correctly. The truck's parking/running lights continue to work as the fuse is for tow only. I took off the vinyl electrical wire wrap and I see if there were any obvious exposed wires. I found two white wires that have been connected together with a speed nut. Should this have been attached to the frame with the main ground? I have one ground screwed to the trailer frame as of now for a ground. Again thanks for the input David in St Louis > I bought both a used Ford Explorer and a 1990 Coleman Williamsburg. I > am having trouble with the running lights on the trailer. I have a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > David In St Louis. Where are these two wires? In any case I doubt that they have anything to do with your fuse blowing. Finding a short can be really difficult. It could be in the socket for the tail light or in any of the lines to any of the running lights. I doubt that you have any mistake in wiring. Unfortunately I don't think there is any easy way to find the fault. I think the most likely location will be at one of the lamp assemblies. That means you will need to remove them and inspect the wires. I would start with the tail/stop lamps. That is not a real big job. And there is always the possibility that you have some unusual wiring but will have to start with the most obvious. Maybe go around wiggling each of the lamp assemblies and see if the fuse blows. > Let me add and clarify and tell you what I have found. > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >> David In St Louis. |
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