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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / October 2004Opinions on 2004 F-150 for 5th wheel
We have 2004 Ford F-150 5.4L 2WD supercab pickup. Ford States Max tow capacity at 8500 pounds. GCVW listed at 14000 for this rig. I think it weights about 5200 pounds empty. We are looking at lightweight 5th wheels such as the Terry/Prowler/Jayco 27 foot model 827 5S. Solliciting opinions on if this is a reasonable tow package for occasional RV trips. Ed > We have 2004 Ford F-150 5.4L 2WD supercab pickup. Ford States Max tow > capacity at 8500 pounds. GCVW listed at 14000 for this rig. I think it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ed That 8500 pounds may be quite optimistic: If you already own the truck, take it to a certified truck scale (loaded with full fuel tank, all normal passengers) and get it weighed. You'll probably find that it's somewhat heavier than 5200 pounds - up to 1000 more. Once you have an accurate weight for the truck, add another 200 to that weight to allow for the in-bed hitch. Subtract the revised weight from the truck's GVWR [Gross Vehicle Weight Rating] to derive the maximum pin weight that the truck can handle. [Hint: it won't be very much.] Multiply that maximum pin weight by 4 to find the maximum GVWR of the trailer that the truck can handle. [ Pin weight will be 20% to 25% of the total trailer weight.] Again, don't be surprised if it's not very much. Personally, I'd be surprised if you can find one that'd be light enough for the truck. [Glendale originally offered a super-light 5er but they seem to have put on weight and I'm not sure that they're still building Shadow Cruisers any more.] The real problem with manufacturers' tow ratings is that they're based upon minimum-weight vehicles - both trucks and trailers. They take a stripped-down, no-frills truck with a [nominally] full tank - weigh it - and add 150 lbs. [representing a notional driver] - subtract that figure from their "official" GCWR and call the result a "tow rating". Trailer manufacturers simply quote the empty weight of a unit with no fluids [fresh water, grey water, black water, propane], subtract that from 1.2 * the combined total of the axles' ratings, and call that the cargo capacity. In other words: fairy tales. There's only 1 sure way to tell what a specific truck can handle and that starts with getting the truck weighed. OK. I did as you suggested. 2004 F-150 5.4L Supercab 2WD. Weighed with gas, 5250 pounds. Add: People, 450, luggage, 200 Hitch 200 totals to 6100# Truck GVWR is 7050, leaving 950 pounds for trailer hitch weight., Prowler 27' ultralight 5th wheel hitch dry weight is 975# Sounds like that would put me right at the limit. Are there others around here pulling with an F150 at its max? Ed > OK. I did as you suggested. 2004 F-150 5.4L Supercab 2WD. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ed No, Ed, it'd put you OVER the max even if the trailer actually only weighed that little. The MFG's weight is for a base unit [absolutely no options onboard] as planned for delivery from the factory to the dealer. This weight does not include such extras as optional appliances [air conditioner(s), etc.], clothing, food, pots & pans, plates, bedding, personal items. These all add weight and most of it will add to the pin weight. The Prowler 827 5S has a GVWR of 8000 pounds. When loaded to that point the pin weight will be in the range of 1600 - 2000 pounds - a far cry from its advertised "dry" pin weight of 975 pounds. It would also put you over your GCWR. At 1600 lbs pin weight your truck will be 650 lbs over its GVWR and, depending upon your rear tires' ratings and the truck's GAWR, may exceed those limits as well. One of the biggest lies in RVing: "Sure! Your |||| can pull this thing! There's LOTS of people pulling these with them." is told by the salescritters whose only interest is in their commission check. The real problem, Ed, is that while the 150/1500 trucks are able to PULL a fair amount of weight they can't CARRY that much weight. This shows up most when, like you, people start looking at 5ers instead of TTs. The 5ers put a lot of weight on the rear axle that is usually borne by the TT axles, especially with a good weight distribution hitch. BTW, the formula I've given you IS the one for "pulling at max" - "Conventional Wisdom" calls for a further 20% - 25% reduction of the limits as a safety factor. That would put your max pin weight allowable at ~ 760 lbs. with a max trailer GVWR of 5925 - 6320 lbs. FWIW, I'm usually within 100 lbs of my truck's 23,000 lb. GCWR when towing. Thanks for the info. It would appear I have two choices. Financially, I don't know if I want to do the first, which is trade in my almost new F150 at 6000 miles for a bigger rig.... or look for a smaller 5th wheel. Ones ranging in size from 22 to 24 with an appropriate less weight seem to be rare. Ed > Thanks for the info. It would appear I have two choices. Financially, >I don't know if I want to do the first, which is trade in my almost new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed Is there a problem with getting a Travel Trailer? There are a lot of them that will fall in the towing range of your truck without going to one so small that it will cramp you and discourage you.  SignatureFrank Tabor > Thanks for the info. It would appear I have two choices. Financially, > I don't know if I want to do the first, which is trade in my almost new > F150 at 6000 miles for a bigger rig.... > > or look for a smaller 5th wheel. Ones ranging in size from 22 to 24 with > an appropriate less weight seem to be rare. Ed, I've towed a 17ft and a 21 ft 5er with my 'ol 91 F150 (302EFI). The 17ft was 3500lb (loaded), no problems. The 21ft was 5500 (loaded), the only problems I had was in Canada where they allow steeper grades (I've pulled up to 18% grades there, one that as 12% for 15 miles). The problem with stepping down to a T.T. is you have a lower CGVW, which would mean even a lighter trailer. Now, one problem you will have is these smaller trailers have little storage room. Very little, often none outside. Examples the Nash 21-5R, the Fleetwood 21-5B (discountinued) and the Sunnybrook 24??. One other trailer that would be every much in your weight range is the Scamp 19ft fiver. One other thing, don't go by length to decide if you can tow a trailer, go by weight. Example the Arctic Fox 24-5N can weigh (full load) 12,000 lbs and dry weights at about 8,000 lbs. But then the Northwood products are built like tanks, and weigh about the same. Signature----- Ralph Lindberg N7BSN n7bsn@amsat.org RV and Camping FAQ http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv Cry bother and loose the Pooh's of War > Thanks for the info. It would appear I have two choices. Financially, > I don't know if I want to do the first, which is trade in my almost new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed If what Ram says is true, then you would total 14,000 pounds (6000 truck 8000 trailer). But you won't need to worry about the truck being overloaded, because you won't be able to merge into the traffic to get on the freeway. :) My 150, which is the 7700 GVW model is considerably heavier built and the pin weight wouldn't be a factor, BUT I wouldn't want to pull that weight. My fully loaded weight including travel trailer usually runs about 10,500 pounds. Another 1000 pounds, maybe even 2000 would probably be acceptable but highly annoying with the 5.4 L. Any grade will slow you down far below average traffic speed and any headwind of more than 5mph will put you out of overdrive. Combine a light headwind and a grade and you may be pulling in 2nd gear. Of course, if you do get it up to speed you will have a stopping problem, unless your 150 comes with the larger 4 wheel disks. You need a V-10 or a diesel for that kind of weight. Sorry about your dilemma. Somebody apparently gave you a bum stear and should have cautioned that anything over 24 feet would be unacceptable for a 150 and a 20-22 foot would be more appropriate. > Thanks for the info. It would appear I have two choices. Financially, > I don't know if I want to do the first, which is trade in my almost new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed About the only lighter weight would be the Thor Aerolite or perhaps Flagstaff or Rockwood, and they are not much lighter. http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/default22.asp?nav=rec Anything with a slide is probably going to weigh too much. Flagstaff used to have 25 foot without slide that came in below 4000 pounds (1999 or thereabouts). > Thanks for the info. It would appear I have two choices. Financially, > I don't know if I want to do the first, which is trade in my almost new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed Consider that I traded my one year old '02 GMC Sierra 1500 for an '03 Dodge Ram 1500 to get enough truck for towing our "new" trailer. If we'd bought a 5th wheel, I'd have got a 2500 instead. HD in CNY > Thanks for the info. It would appear I have two choices. Financially, > I don't know if I want to do the first, which is trade in my almost new > F150 at 6000 miles for a bigger rig.... > > or look for a smaller 5th wheel. Ones ranging in size from 22 to 24 with > an appropriate less weight seem to be rare. I haven't read the rest of the replies, but I'd like to tell you what it's like towing "at the max". I used a Chevy S10 pickup to tow a travel trailer which, weighed on a scale, was WITHIN the ratings of the pickup - but JUST BARELY. It was two seasons of no fun at all. It is very tedious to have to keep your foot down on the gas JUST far enough to extract every last ounce of power, but not enough to cause a downshift. 55MPH was about it, in third gear. The torque converter rarely locked and cruise control was virtually unusable. Bite the bullet and get "a bigger horse". Do the best you can, but don't look back having sold the F150 in order to acquire a <ahem> REAL tow vehicle. Besides, if you really wanted to save $$, you wouldn't be getting into THIS lifestyle (RVing). As for length (size) of fifthwheel: 27 is just about right, if a little short by today's standards. You are right, 22 to 24-ft fivers are rare. Good luck! :) JR I guess I'll go "against the grain" on this. We used a 25' Terry 5th towed by a 6 cyl. Dakota for about 4 years of Weekending and vacations, up an down the east coast including Vermont and New Hampshire which are "all uphill" Rig weight was at the high limit for that truck, which I also used for business. Spent a lot of time in the right lane, engine turned about 3Krpm at about 65mph. Used no oil {Mobile1} Sold rig at 160Kmi. It was a very good pair if you were prepared to live with it's limits. Peter & Anne-Marie Arnold Windsor, CT '95 F250 W/PSD {176 Kmi} 31 Ft Prowler Fifth Wheel NCT # 13390, The Masonic Campers I see where Peter T. Arnold <PM7088@comcast.net> contributed: >I guess I'll go "against the grain" on this. > >We used a 25' Terry 5th towed by a 6 cyl. Dakota for about 4 years of >Weekending and vacations, up an down the east coast including Vermont >and New Hampshire which are "all uphill" Your good luck is a lousy reason to suggest others should make the same mistake. The fact that you did not crash doesn't mean you weren't taking a huge chance. You see, "power" is NOT the relative question. A Jap mini-truck could "pull" a big trailer, and if carefully driven and maintained could do so for many miles. But it simply ain't safe when it comes to braking and making sudden maneuvers. People need to understand the truth that truly competent towing combinations REQUIRE a large truck, with long wheelbase and an adequate margin of weight capacity. Opinions will of course vary, but there's a great deal more to tow ratings than power. To get some perspective on that, consider the average over-the-road truck. Typically 400 horsepower or less to haul 80,000 pounds. Do your own math. BOTTOM LINE: If you trust the experienced trailerists who have been there and done that and don't want to go back, you will not exceed about 75% of the rated maximum. The number is of course not writ by the finger of God on a stone tablet - it is merely an indication that you should stay well below the manufacturer's maximum allowance if you want a safe, comfortable trip. Some say the figure ought to be as low as 50 or 60%. But except for a few macho braggarts, most experienced folks agree in principle if not detail with these concerns. For example, go to http://www.popuptimes.com/archives/75rule.asp Will ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill I post to help rv'ers and annoy the snot out of morons, idjits, fools and bozos - - and to irk their ilk. Often, I do both at once. If you feel annoyed, check your status. << People need to understand the truth that truly competent towing combinations REQUIRE a large truck, with long wheelbase and an adequate margin of weight capacity. Opinions will of course vary, but there's a great deal more to tow ratings than power. To get some perspective on that, consider the average over-the-road truck. Typically 400 horsepower or less to haul 80,000 pounds. Do your own math. >> Ok, using your figures: 80,000lb cgvw rig pulled by 14,000lb tractor with 400hp. Divide those three figures by 2 and you have a 40,000lb cgvw pulled by a 7,000lb pickup with 200hp. Then move up to Michigan where you have 140,000lb cgvw rigs pulled by 450 hp 14,000lb 15speed tractors, many without sleeper etc to keep the tractor wt lower. Wow! We all got way too big a trucks! I personally don't think so but it makes my point, properly rated axles with good properly maintained brakes are much more important then hp or lbs pulling the load. Back in the '60's our big one ton dually Chevy had a big 250 ci 6 cylinder 4spd. Neighbors big semi had a big 238 hp Detroit diesel. Today we have replaced brains with horse power (horse brains) so some rigs are overloaded as soon as the nut gets behind the wheel. Weight has little to do with it. Oh yes, the 1971 W series Ford single rear axle tractor we used to haul 17 tons of eggs from Ephrata to Baltimore and NYC had a 238 hp Detroit, 10spd Road Ranger and an 84" wheel base to manuver around the narrow streets. <<BOTTOM LINE: >> Opinionated drivel snipped! :^) <<Will ---- the Curmudgeon of Sill Hill I post to help rv'ers and annoy the snot out of morons, idjits, fools and bozos - - and to irk their ilk. Often, I do both at once. If you feel annoyed, check your status. DSteiner ><< People need to understand the >truth that truly competent towing combinations REQUIRE a large truck, [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > >DSteiner The one thing to remember, those 12, 13, 14 and 15 liter engines have anywhere from 1000-3000 ft/lbs of torque. Best one out there in a pickup has only 525 or so ft/lbs. SignatureFrank Tabor >><< People need to understand the >>truth that truly competent towing combinations REQUIRE a large truck, [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > anywhere from 1000-3000 ft/lbs of torque. Best one out there in a > pickup has only 525 or so ft/lbs. 610 lb-ft. [325 HP] Cummins ISBe in the current Dodge 2500/3500 models - a far, Far, FAR cry from what powers an OTR tractor. > Back in the '60's our big one ton dually Chevy had a big 250 ci 6 > cylinder 4spd. Yeah, and that was big news when the "big 6" came out. In the '30s and '40s my dad was hauling 5000 pound loads with a lot less than power that that. It was all of 216 ci and an incredible 90 HP!. It had a 5spd, dual rear end. That was the vehicle I learned to drive with. Took me a while to master the double clutching going up hill with a full load. The first couple times came to a full stop and then crawled to the top in "super low" gear. Thanks, Jim, (and the others who replied down this thread). We have finally concluded that you are all right, and that it would be quite difficult to find the 5th wheel of our specs that would fall somewhat below our GVW capacity. We have decided to go with a Travel Trailer instead. I do want to comment, though, that the 2004 F-150 is a considerably improved version of past models when it comes to towing with a half ton. The GVW is higher (7050 in my case), towing capacity is higher, (8500 with our model), the power is up, (300HP), the brakes are improved, (4 disc), the suspension is vastly improved, and the wheelbase is plenty long, at 145" , so I don't think the comparisons to some of the smaller models, or older models quite holds in this regards. Again, thanks to all. Ed << Thanks, Jim, (and the others who replied down this thread). We have finally concluded that you are all right, and that it would be quite difficult to find the 5th wheel of our specs that would fall somewhat below our GVW capacity. We have decided to go with a Travel Trailer instead. I do want to comment, though, that the 2004 F-150 is a considerably improved version of past models when it comes to towing with a half ton. The GVW is higher (7050 in my case), towing capacity is higher, (8500 with our model), the power is up, (300HP), the brakes are improved, (4 disc), the suspension is vastly improved, and the wheelbase is plenty long, at 145" , so I don't think the comparisons to some of the smaller models, or older models quite holds in this regards. Again, thanks to all. Ed >> So now you have changed your mind to what may have been, notice I say may have been, a nice handling rig to one that will no doubt need several bandaids to even get it close. Weight distributing bars, antisway mechanisms etc. which the 5th wheel would not have needed. Oh well, go for it and have fun camping! DSteiner > Thanks, Jim, (and the others who replied down this thread). We have > finally concluded that you are all right, and that it would be quite [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ed You are absolutely correct on your observations Ed. I think you're right on course choosing a travel trailer over the 5th wheel. That truck can handle more load by far than an 80's or even early 90's 150/1500 pickup. Something that makes me laugh is people saying a 2500 Suburban is a more capable tow vehicle that a club cab or crew cab pickup. there is no comparison on wheelbase leverage between the pickup and the Suburban. I know there is more to it than just wheelbase but the engines are the same in the Ford and Dodge lines. GM has a bigger engine in the 2500 line but it too is available with certain choices. HD in CNY > OK. I did as you suggested. 2004 F-150 5.4L Supercab 2WD. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ed You need to go back and weigh the rear axle loaded as you said. Then figure you're going to put some "stuff" up front in the 5th wheel which will take away from allowable bed weight. You'll be over the axle limit for sure. HD in CNY > We have 2004 Ford F-150 5.4L 2WD supercab pickup. Ford States Max tow >capacity at 8500 pounds. GCVW listed at 14000 for this rig. I think it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ed Hi, The problem with so called 1/2 ton pickups towing 5th wheels is the amount of weight you can put in the truck. 5th wheel hitch weights are around 20-25 percent of the *fully loaded* weight of the trailer. So if you have a 5th wheel that weighs 6000 lbs. your hitch weight is going to be somewhere between 1200-1500 lbs. To find how much hitch weight you can have you have to subtract the fully loaded weight of the truck (fuel and passengers and anything else you might carry in or on it plus the weight of the 5th wheel hitch) from the GVWR. That will give you the max hitch weight (carrying capacity) you can have which will determine the size of the trailer you can get. You will probably find that the size 5th wheels you are looking at are to heavy for your truck. Hope this helps. Take care and Happy Campin... RichA "We Get To Soon Olde and To Late Smart" snipped > Solliciting opinions on if this is a reasonable tow package for > occasional RV trips. There are few 5th wheels with a low enough pin weight to be safely towed with a 150/1500. The problem is, even if you find one with a low pin weight, the storage compartments are up front. This allows you to add several hundred pounds to the pin weight and running the allowable bed load over the limits. I've talked to many folks pulling 5th wheels with 1/2 ton trucks and they all claim the truck handles the load well. Problem is, unlike pulling a travel trailer, the axle design of the 1/2 ton series has a flaw. If the wheel bearing fails, the axle comes out. Not a pretty picture. HD in CNY > We have 2004 Ford F-150 5.4L 300HP 2WD 143" wheelbase, > 4 disc brakes. Ford States Max tow capacity at 8500 pounds. > GCVW listed at 14000 for this rig. I think > it weights about 5200 pounds empty. I want to thank everyone who has responded to my query. You have all given me good information to chew over. I believe at this time we will keep the new F150 as it is pretty hefty for a half ton and hopefully we will find a trailer that it will handle fairly comfortably without pushing the limits. Our continuing research on 5th wheels has found one that may do, the Komfort 22FS. Its dry weight is 5859 and its hitch weight is listed at 671, a 200 pound margin under the calculated limit for our truck. I realize added storage/options will run that up, but we do travel light. I figure we should be about 1500 pounds under the GCVW too. Is that acceptable? My only experience with this new truck is pulling a 4500 pound TT. It pulled like there was nothing behind it, though admittedly we didn't have much in the way of hill to climb that trip. What do you guys think on the Komfort 22FS? Our other option, as some have suggested, is a travel trailer. I hadn't really been considering them as I wanted the additional safety and pulling convenience of the 5th wheel, but on the other hand, I do have reasonable experience pulling small TTs. So far, I have seen a few good 27 foot models that should easily come well under the hitch limitations and the GCVR limitations too. Again, thanks to all who have contributed to my education for my search for a suitable RV to pull with my new F150. Ed snipped > Again, thanks to all who have contributed to my education for my > search for a suitable RV to pull with my new F150. > > Ed Looks like you've found a 5th wheel that will work fine. I like your thought on the 27' or so travel trailer even better. Our Ram 1500 is close on the gcvw rating towing our Holiday Rambler 29fsk. You could probably handle a trailer in the 6K to 7K gvw class. That would open up a lot more trailers for your choice. I've talked to several Ford 1500 owners who were towing Cougar 5th wheel trailers. They had no problems towing them but the axle problem I cited would be a killer if the axle stub came out. This wouldn't be a problem with a travel trailer as the hitch weight wouldn't overload the rear axle. HD in CNY |
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