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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / May 2005

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Minimum safe AC voltage?

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Pumper Hinkle - 14 May 2005 23:32 GMT
I guess some parks have substandard electrical supplies.   What would be the
minimum voltage before I might cause damage to some of my appliances?   110?
100?     Seems to me I might want to install a voltmeter somewhere so I can
monitor the incoming current.   Has anyone done this?   Is it worthwhile?

Ralph
Dapper Dave - 14 May 2005 23:52 GMT
>"Pumper Hinkle" <pumperhinkle@earthlink.net> wrote:

>I guess some parks have substandard electrical supplies.   What would be the
>minimum voltage before I might cause damage to some of my appliances?   110?
>100?     Seems to me I might want to install a voltmeter somewhere so I can
>monitor the incoming current.   Has anyone done this?   Is it worthwhile?
>
>Ralph

The Progressive Industries system we have in our rig disconnects shore
power if it falls below 108 volts or rises above 132 volts for some
number of seconds. That's 120 volts plus or minus 10%.

Signature

DD

asdf@global.net - 15 May 2005 04:48 GMT
> I guess some parks have substandard electrical supplies.   What would be the
> minimum voltage before I might cause damage to some of my appliances?   110?
> 100?     Seems to me I might want to install a voltmeter somewhere so I can
> monitor the incoming current.   Has anyone done this?   Is it worthwhile?
>
> Ralph

I have one of the little meters. In Minnesota the campgrounds around
Lake of the Woods all had low voltage at peaak times. Corrossion from
winter must do their wiring in.
We limited our usage while there to the air conditioner and prayed.
I think I will buy one of those auto reformers from Camping World and
give it a try.  Trouble is will 30 amp work on a 50 amp reformer or will
50 amp work on a 30 amp reformer. I don't want to buy two.
We need the fifty amp when we can find it but many/most areas of Canada
and the border area seem to be only 30 amp.
RAM^3 - 15 May 2005 06:18 GMT
> I have one of the little meters. In Minnesota the campgrounds around Lake
> of the Woods all had low voltage at peaak times.

Odd: At Birch Ridge Campground [at Warroad] we never experienced anything
like that!

According to our plug-in Voltmeter the voltage never varied at all in the 3
months we were there.

Where were you staying?
asdf@global.net - 15 May 2005 14:35 GMT
>>I have one of the little meters. In Minnesota the campgrounds around Lake
>>of the Woods all had low voltage at peaak times.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Where were you staying?

It was a couple of years ago. I have brochures from them somewhere but
can't remember the names. The best one had real nice lawns trees and was
quiet but the water was really full of rust scale. The power was below
normal most of the time.
RAM^3 - 15 May 2005 22:07 GMT
>>>I have one of the little meters. In Minnesota the campgrounds around Lake
>>>of the Woods all had low voltage at peaak times.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> quiet but the water was really full of rust scale. The power was below
> normal most of the time.

Since Birch Ridge has only been open for a short while (this is their 4th
year in operation), I'd guess that you were in one of the older parks.

Were you on the Eastern or the Western portion of LOTW?
asdf@global.net - 16 May 2005 00:07 GMT
>>>>I have one of the little meters. In Minnesota the campgrounds around Lake
>>>>of the Woods all had low voltage at peaak times.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> We were on the western side. I was going to dig out a map and locate it
but I can't even find the thing.
Ben Fullerton - 15 May 2005 18:06 GMT
: > I guess some parks have substandard electrical supplies.   What would be the
: > minimum voltage before I might cause damage to some of my appliances?   110?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
: We need the fifty amp when we can find it but many/most areas of Canada
: and the border area seem to be only 30 amp.

As nobody else seems interested in the original question ....

as a broad generalization, if it has an AC motor - low voltage will cause
it to run hot and eventually burn out the motor. How soon depends on how
low the voltage is. IF it the motor has thermal protection built in, that
might shut it down soon enough to save it.

Appliances that use the power for heat ONLY, including light bulbs, (not
many in RVs because it takes a lot of power to generate heat) are usually
safe, but will heat more slowly and to a lower temperature.

Universal motors - the kind with brushes, that will run on either AC or DC
- will have lower power and, depending on what they are used for, may or
may not run hot.

A more fully qualified electrician can give more help on this. I just
don't want you to burn out any motors while you are waiting to hear from a
fully qualified expert.  :-)

.... and corrosion has nothing to do with the low voltages in almost all
cases. The usual problem is that the wires are too small and/or the local
power transformer is inadequate for the load. That much I am sure of!

Ben F.
Sandy A. Nicolaysen - 15 May 2005 19:06 GMT
>: > I guess some parks have substandard electrical supplies.   What would be the
>: > minimum voltage before I might cause damage to some of my appliances?   110?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>many in RVs because it takes a lot of power to generate heat) are usually
>safe, but will heat more slowly and to a lower temperature.

Absorbtion refrigerators use a resistive heating element when run on
AC.  While low voltage won't damage these frigs, they also may not
cool as well at low voltage because the wattage of the heating element
decreases as the square of the decreased voltage.  Ohm's Law.

P=E^2/R where P = watts, E = voltage, and R = resistance.

The power company only guarantees 120 volts +/- 10%.  Even a drop of
10% means a loss of 20% cooling.  My Dometic frig has a 49 ohm
element.  At the normal 120 volts, the output from the heating element
is 120^2/49, or 295 watts.  Drop the voltage down 10% or 108 volts,
the heating element puts out 108^2/49, or 238 watts.  That's a 20%
loss in wattage used to power the boiler in the frig.

That's why on a hot day with low voltages, I run my frig on propane
even though I'm hooked up.  Gotta keep those Red Dogs cold you know!
It's all about priorities.   :)

- Sandy

>Universal motors - the kind with brushes, that will run on either AC or DC
>- will have lower power and, depending on what they are used for, may or
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Ben F.
dmartin@newarts.com - 15 May 2005 23:02 GMT
> As nobody else seems interested in the original question ....
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Ben F.

Ben, Thanks for the good answer (which as I read it is "it depends").

Probably the biggest risk I face is harming my Coleman AC with too low
a voltage, hence too much current. Are Coleman AC's thermally
protected?

Everything else I could ruin is fairly inexpensive hence can be its own
fuse.

As I write this I'm on 475' of #12 wire & 100' of #10 wire. My Coleman
13kbtu AC compressor won't start; the voltage drops to about 100. If I
can get the AC started with a soft-start kit, will it be harmed by
running at reduced voltage?

Dave
Chris Bryant - 15 May 2005 23:36 GMT
On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:02:07 -0700, dmartin wrote:

> As I write this I'm on 475' of #12 wire & 100' of #10 wire. My Coleman
> 13kbtu AC compressor won't start; the voltage drops to about 100. If I can
> get the AC started with a soft-start kit, will it be harmed by running at
> reduced voltage?

My take on this is that I always ran the air when I needed it to stay
comfortable- the only time it would not run the voltage was 94 volts, and
the breaker in the trailer tripped.
I hate to say it, but if it is hot, and keeping coold reduces the lifespan
of my A/C a year or two- I really don't care- I want to be comfortable
<g>. The longest cable run I have ever used is 250' of #12, 100' of #14-
then plugged in with a ground lift adapter (!).

The "soft start kit"- if your A/C doesn't have it (many OEMs delete the
start kit to save a few bucks) is a good thing to have, irregardless.

Signature

Chris Bryant
http://bryantrv.com

Oren Beck - 16 May 2005 00:38 GMT
>On Sun, 15 May 2005 15:02:07 -0700, dmartin wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>The "soft start kit"- if your A/C doesn't have it (many OEMs delete the
>start kit to save a few bucks) is a good thing to have, irregardless.

Start kits are one of those things like Autoformers and the Banks
exhaust that have realities divergent from the beliefs in both
directions.

That however was said as intending to be a lesson in proper
applications. A potential use of autoformers is at the end of a long
cable run for example but heed the risk of melting an overloaded
cable! A better technical fix would perhaps be a 110 to 480 V xformer
at the feed end and a 480 to 110 at the rv end-  cutting line lossage.
MOST standard wiring is rated at 600  or higher so this would still be
in spec if done carefully and making  deadly certain that plugs on the
480 sides were not interchangable with others!
I have seen 110 to 480 and back used for outbuildings at freight
yards. Guard shacks with a roof air/heat identical to that on an rv
for example further.

Oren Beck
www.campdownunder.com
Chris Bryant - 16 May 2005 02:04 GMT
> Start kits are one of those things like Autoformers and the Banks exhaust
> that have realities divergent from the beliefs in both directions.

The thing to keep in mind is that Coleman leaves out *all* the starting
components when asked- I.E.- no start cap/relay or PTC, just a run cap for
the compressor.
The Start kit simply adds these components, which IMHO should be included.

Signature

Chris Bryant
http://bryantrv.com

dmartin@newarts.com - 16 May 2005 01:02 GMT
Your answer implies it is not sudden Coleman death to fall to 100V.
That's all I need to know.

Thanks very much. There is nothing like the voice of experience.

Dave
Ben Fullerton - 16 May 2005 02:36 GMT
: On Sun, 15 May 2005 18:38:41 -0500, Oren Beck wrote:

: > Start kits are one of those things like Autoformers and the Banks exhaust
: > that have realities divergent from the beliefs in both directions.

: The thing to keep in mind is that Coleman leaves out *all* the starting
: components when asked- I.E.- no start cap/relay or PTC, just a run cap for
: the compressor.
: The Start kit simply adds these components, which IMHO should be included.

The one unit that I had in mind when I posted earlier was the Coleman roof
air on our 1974 Apollo motor home. As we bought it in the early '90s, I do
not know if the AirC was original or a replacement - but there was no sign
of a misfit or modification on either the ceiling or roof.

One hot day here at home, it was parked away from the usual pad and I used
a 14 gauge 100 ft lawnmower cord and an adapter to connect to the 30 Amp
plug on the MH. The roof air ran about a minute or two, sounding very
sluggish, and then quit.

At that point I stopped to think, remembered the probably voltage drop
with 14 Amps and a 100 ft 14 gauge cord AND the potential overheating
and burnout of an AC motor on low voltage.
 ..... but I was lucky. When I got back within reach of the 30 amp outlet
and tried it again, all was ok. Phew!
Never again with a 100 ft 14 ga.  cord. (I now have a 50 ft 10 gauge with
30 Amp plug on one end and outlet on the other.)

Now, if a campsite power source is in question, I use the 4kW Onan long
enough to cool things down.

Ben F.
ddodd - 25 May 2005 04:06 GMT
Actuallly, corrosion can reduce the amount current a wire is capable of
carrying. If the corrosion reduces the size of the wire from #12 to an
equivalent #14 AWG, it will not be able to carry the current of a #12 wire
to the load which see less than 120 VAC. In addition, if two #12 wires are
spiced but make poor contact, they cannot carry the full load of a #12 wire.
That's why you clean your battery terminals in your truck so the battery can
send enough current to the starter motor to turn and start the gas/diesel
engine.

dandodd
MS Electical Engineering

> A more fully qualified electrician can give more help on this. I just
> don't want you to burn out any motors while you are waiting to hear from a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Ben F.
Alan Glen - 25 May 2005 04:46 GMT
Ben F,

         I've done the same thing a few times
to. Running a regular estension chord whit
an adapter...everything works fine EXCEPT
for the A/C. I can run the fridge and the lights
and the TV, but  with only the A/C running
the extension chord will get hot real quick and
the low power light will come on my thermostat.
I've melted the end of the chord at the adapter
once and will never run my A/C that way again.
RAM^3 - 26 May 2005 01:30 GMT
alanglen004@webtv.net (Alan Glen) wrote in news:14928-4293F500-793
@storefull-3234.bay.webtv.net:

> Ben F,
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> I've melted the end of the chord at the adapter
> once and will never run my A/C that way again.

You needed a heavier guage of wire in your extension cord (at least a 10
guage @ 25' maximum).

Make sure that the cord is rated for the total load. Otherwise you'll get
the same results you've had before.
Pumper Hinkle - 29 May 2005 05:11 GMT
It occurs to me that if one needs to go further than 25' with the stock
(built-in) cord that running a second, parallel, cord would provide the
power with less voltage drop.

So, are there adapters for this sort of thing?    And what if I were to run
4 100' 14ga cords in parallel.   How much current would they handle?
Jim Redelfs - 30 May 2005 00:20 GMT
> It occurs to me that if one needs to go further than 25' with the stock
> (built-in) cord that running a second, parallel, cord would provide the
> power with less voltage drop.
>
> So, are there adapters for this sort of thing?

Not that I am aware of.

> And what if I were to run 4 100' 14ga cords in parallel.
> How much current would they handle?

Well, lessee...

14-gauge = 15 amps.  So that would be 60 amps.

Of course, if you put a PENNY behind the fuse, you could run even MORE stuff.

Sheesh!
               :\
JR
Trekking Tom - 15 May 2005 20:52 GMT
Using and Autoformer to protect your electrical system is the
equivilant of putting a pump on the water spigot to suck out more
water. This gets you what you need but leaves less for everyone else.
The problem is with the park or the company that supplies their
electricity. My bets are with the park, maybe designed for rigs using
20 amps, wired with Aluminum wire etc. I would worry more about
electronic devices before motors. ( everything has electronics
nowadays) Tell the park, if they do nothing about it. Get your money
back and move.

Tom

Now let the autoformer zealots can move in and explain how we can get
125% out of 100%
Oren Beck - 15 May 2005 23:40 GMT
>Using and Autoformer to protect your electrical system is the
>equivilant of putting a pump on the water spigot to suck out more
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Now let the autoformer zealots can move in and explain how we can get
>125% out of 100%

AL wire is not needfully a problem. Poorly installed it is
considerably more fault prone. Nick it and let water get in kiss that
section or short lowest spot goodbye. WITH real fun finding the almost
break as it becomes a series nonlinear current dependent resistor.
Loose connections not properly brushed and aloxed do similar.
The reverse holds true however. Properly installed AL with all
connections made to spec is the usual backbone of most utilities.
Nitpicking about alclad steel aside AL is the cost effective metal for
large utility scale work. YMMV but the economics are cruel masters.
I worry more about homemade plug adaptors being miswired. And the
adaptor using a 20/30 to simulate a 50.  Many older parks "upgraded"
by putting a 20/30 box on wiring barely adequate for 20. thence
someone plugs a 50- which is actually 50 amps PER LEG into such an
adapter thence plugs 3 electric heaters in -2 on high and one on low
...then wonders why a 1750 W coffeemaker or griddle pops the
breakers<AsIf you've never seen this eh?>

The simple FAQ level reasons are more of understandings.
That perceived 20\30 box =50 amps is NOT often intended as such.
In that mythical kingdom of perfect maybe. Not here. Here's Why/how.
99% of campers in average comparisons split between either 20 or 30
amp service.
50 amp rigs still by sheer mass of older rigs are a minority.
The splits between 30 to 20 is more arguable a zone but still tilts to
30 as a common denominator.

SO that caused many installs of a box and wiring rated for the 30 amp
full load . The 20 was a courtesy for those with older rigs or perhaps
an outside coffee pot etc on a picnic table. Never really designed to
be BOTH sides full loaded. Because most parks allow one camper per
site.
That presumes an either or on a max 30 site. So when someone starts on
a few sites pushing the envelope....
Often one will see 3~5 orange cords extending to vacant sites running
each one 1500 w milk or cube heater to heat a screen room etc. It
takes only a few times of that kind doing so for campground owners to
get fed up and begin locking boxes or posting "no electric heat"
signs... Someday I may post the story of the campground we stayed at
that had more "no electric heat!!!" signs than disney has pics of the
mouse!.
Electric heat sadly is not the end of all power issues. AC can be
worse in summer      

Because many folks with 50 amp rigs often use a lighter 30 amp cord
with adaptors. Either from 50>30>50 or at 30 to the rig's cord thence
the 30>50 being hanging from the plug of the rig arcing softly in the
dew.  OR the even more WtF inducing 20 amp socket plugged with a 20 to
30 thence into that 30 to 50 trying to start 2 roof airs.... *POP* the
breaker and scratching of head may bring dim recall of 50 is larger
than 20- and that "50" is actually a 100 if single leg fed!

All this had been believed beaten to a thin red smear in past posts.
But it still warrants doing some research to enlighten the ones who
missed the first go rounds of this . Last month a camper came in with
a 50 amp plug wired "to work fine in TX" He complained he had only 110
from his 30 to 50  adaptor and popped the breaker if plugged into the
50 outlet direct . Had him open all breakers and ...ZERO ohms between
the 2 hots of that 50 plug end  of his  hardwired cord .Yep, a 3 wire
cord with a 4 wire plug.

White and green ok but black tied to both hots.

Maybe the park he last stayed at was wired that way . I suspect he may
have some issues wherever else he stays . 110 nominal is all one gets
on a standard 3 wire rv socket... Now some cringemaking setups using
dryer plugs are out there but rare.

Autoformers are an interesting application poorly understood and often
deadly. They are NOT an isolation per se but merely a buck or boost
device. Robbing peter to pay paul is not strictly true but it still
does hold that taking more for one rig will decrease ampacity reserve
for the others in that path. The ferroresonant self regulating ones
can be VERY expen$ive and heavy. Oh, they work after a fashion but are
a hackaround rather than a real good fix for long stays.
Still they have uses if you have no other choice where to stay and are
willing to educate yourself on what they can and cannot do. Buyer be
careful as in all things.  The summary statement is most American
electronics are supposedly made to be stable/safe from 105~129 vac    

Oren Beck

www.campdownunder.com

"But remember, please, the Law by which we live,
   We are not built to comprehend a lie,
We can neither love nor pity nor forgive,
   If you make a slip in handling us you die!"

The Secret of the Machines:Rudyard Kipling
Oren Beck - 15 May 2005 20:23 GMT
>I guess some parks have substandard electrical supplies.   What would be the
>minimum voltage before I might cause damage to some of my appliances?   110?
>100?     Seems to me I might want to install a voltmeter somewhere so I can
>monitor the incoming current.   Has anyone done this?   Is it worthwhile?
>
>Ralph

The term of "minimum safe" provokes flamewars in many tech forums.
The final arbiter sadly is what works or does not continue to work.
Personal experiences have shown that being overcautious is good.
When my wife bought her campground it was a "learning experience".
That last term being interchangable with the line about interesting
times as being a curse .

MANY of the connections we found as causes of weird voltages were
textbook case study worthy. As in the seemingly ultimate attempt at
bad connections repeated several times in some runs. Too weird to be
fiction this is .

4/0 AL urd triplex with copper split bolts, steel spacers and a brass
nut - finger tight at best - wrapped poorly with taiwan buffalo grade
black tape thence buried in gravelly clay mud. 3 of these per splice
point. Some done as running taps with the added fillip of copper wire
pressed directly against the AL by that steel spacer and held together
more or less by that fingertight brass nut and actually *DUCT TAPED*

With all sincerity I can agree this sounds too far over the edge.
As I so told the first workman who dug up one of those lovely joints
he had found literaly from the smoke seeping up from the cracked
earth! Suffice to say it took a while to extirpate these demons.
Those gone it devolved to the mundane failed GFI etc for many years .
My average site now has full load volts of 121 lowest to 127 highest
when the park is empty.

Oren Beck

www.campdownunder.com  
Dean Norris - 16 May 2005 03:44 GMT
>I guess some parks have substandard electrical supplies.   What would be the
>minimum voltage before I might cause damage to some of my appliances?   110?
>100?     Seems to me I might want to install a voltmeter somewhere so I can
>monitor the incoming current.   Has anyone done this?   Is it worthwhile?
>
>Ralph

I picked up a 110VAC meter at CW (Rad Shk has them too).  Wouldn't
leave home without it.  I also have a 50A surge protector.  I also
have a 12VDC meter showing coach battery condition at a glance.

I am a gadget freak.  
 
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