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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / June 2005

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Equalizing batteries and disconnecting DC

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Dapper Dave - 03 Jun 2005 19:56 GMT
The manual for the Xantrex RC-7 control panel for our inverter says "All
DC loads should be disconnected during the equalize charge period due to
the higher voltage applied to the batteries (15+ volts DC)".

If I pull the fuses for the fridge, HydroHot, and thermostats, will all
the expensive stuff be protected? Having no lights for three hours is a
nuisance.

Thanks.

Signature

DD

Chris Bryant - 03 Jun 2005 20:01 GMT
> The manual for the Xantrex RC-7 control panel for our inverter says "All
> DC loads should be disconnected during the equalize charge period due to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the expensive stuff be protected? Having no lights for three hours is a
> nuisance.

To be honest- I wouldn't risk it. Florescent light would be fried as well,
and standard incandescent bulbs would get mighty hot. There might well be
other sensitive loads which we have not thought of.
I would go ahead and disconnect everything.

Signature

Chris Bryant
http://bryantrv.com

RichA - 03 Jun 2005 22:46 GMT
>The manual for the Xantrex RC-7 control panel for our inverter says "All
>DC loads should be disconnected during the equalize charge period due to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Thanks.
Hi,
You should pull all the fuses.  You will be putting out 15+ volts
which is not necessarily good for 12V items.  Some can take it some
can't. You may end up going around replacing light bulbs etc.   When I
equalize mine I pull the fuses and use the 12V disconnect switch to
make sure everything 12V in the RV is disconnected.  I don't know
about the RC-7 control panel but it normally takes longer then 3 hours
to do an equalization charge.  Read the manual that came with the
inverter, it should tell you in there how long the automatic
equalization charge takes.  I believe the last time I did one it took
closer to 8 hours.  Maybe yours being newer it is set to only do 3
hours.  Of course you can stop it any time you want too.

Take care and Happy Campin...
RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"
JerryBianchi@netscape.net - 04 Jun 2005 04:33 GMT
I would disconnect everything and perform the equalization when you are
home in your driveway and not out camping.

To lengthen battery life, equalize once a month under heavy use, less
at other times.  After a long winter, first perform a normal
charge/discharge cycle prior to equalization.  In any case when you
equalize check your battery temperature, never letting the battery get
above 105 degrees.  Above that they start to outgas.

Jerry B
RichA - 04 Jun 2005 05:09 GMT
>I would disconnect everything and perform the equalization when you are
>home in your driveway and not out camping.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Jerry B
Hi,
Equalization is an on purpose overcharge of the battery.  If it
doesn't start gassing it isn't equalizing.

I think the best way is to follow your battery manufacturers
recommendation.  I used to equalize once a year but now only do it if
the batteries read low on a hydrometer following what the Trojan
battery site recommends.
http://www.trojanbattery.com/Tech-Support/BatteryMaintenance/Equalizing.aspx

Take care and Happy Campin...

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"
Dapper Dave - 04 Jun 2005 15:35 GMT
>"JerryBianchi@netscape.net" <JerryBianchi@netscape.net> wrote:

>I would disconnect everything and perform the equalization when you are
>home in your driveway and not out camping.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Jerry B

Thanks, but as full-timers we have no driveway, and we don't camp. <g>

I will go ahead hit the battery disconnect switch before equalizing.
Since I have never equalized our batteries in any of our rigs and they
keep on working, I guess it isn't an urgent task. I think I'll start
doing it a couple times a year, under the category of "can't hurt."

Signature

DD

Dapper Dave - 04 Jun 2005 15:30 GMT
>RichA <richatpa*nospam*@epix.net> wrote:

>>The manual for the Xantrex RC-7 control panel for our inverter says "All
>>DC loads should be disconnected during the equalize charge period due to
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>RichA
>"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

Thanks for the advice. I'll follow it.

The Xantrex RC-7 remote runs the equalization cycle for three hours. The
only way to run it longer is to start another three-hour cycle. Yes, it
can be stopped at any time.

I see that the Trojan site that you cited recommends running the
equalization cycle only when the specific gravity on the batteries is
either low or varies widely, and then checking the specific gravity
hourly during the cycle (at every cell?) until it no longer rises.
Sounds like more trouble than I am likely to go through. I think I'll
just run them through a 3-hour equalization cycle every six months or
so.

Signature

DD

RichA - 04 Jun 2005 16:44 GMT
>>RichA <richatpa*nospam*@epix.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>just run them through a 3-hour equalization cycle every six months or
>so.
Hi,
Just checked and the Heart Interface controller that came with the RV
used a time equalization of 8 hours, so does the Link.

I don't do the checking like they say either.  Last time I just
checked once a couple hours into the charge.  Not a good thing taking
the battery covers all the way off as they get to spitting pretty
good. :)  I haven't equalized them since then either which was in the
fall of 03.  I've always gotten good readings when I checked the
specific gravity since that time.  I may do a couple hour equalization
just for the heck of it since it's been awhile.

Take care and Happy Campin...
RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"
JerryB - 05 Jun 2005 04:26 GMT
I work with large scale hybrid electric systems using inverters, PV
solar, wind turbines, batteries and diesel gensets for small remote
villages.  Our batteries are usually large systems that take up a large
room, in one instant we have a Trace Technologies 90 Kw inverter that
is programmed to equalize every 30 days.  These batteries get a
constant workout much more than what you would experience in an RV,
thus you may not need to equalize as often.   I would defer to the
inverter manufacturers recomendation regarding frequency as they have
many hours of research invested to maximize the system.

A little more about battery equalization that may or may not be of
interest.
As batteries are exercised the individual cells react a little
different in their rate of charge & discharge due to the minute
difference in internal cell resistance.  Thus when a battery or series
of batteries are charged, the charger charges to a set voltage of 14.5
volts assuming 2.4volt/cell on a 12-volt system.  Since each individual
cell has taken a different charge rate due to this internal resistance,
the total battery voltage is correct, but each cell voltage is
different, some higher and some lower than 2.4volts/cell, which results
in some of the cells not reaching a full charge.   The battery loses
it's full charge potential over time, thus the equalization.  What the
equalization does is to temporarily overcharge the battery so that each
and every cell is overcharged thus guaranteeing a minimum desired
volts/cell.

However there is a draw back, anytime a battery is worked either charge
or discharge, heat is generated proportional to the rate of current
flow.   Hence when equalizing the batteries the temperature often rises
higher than normal.  There are many things that can decrease the life
of a battery and one of them is heat.  Many large inverters actually
have a thermocouple connected to the battery to charge to a specific
volts/cell per battery temperature and controll maximum charge rate
without overheating.  The typical setting is 40 degrees C (105F)
maximum battery temperature, manufacturers usually don't warn you over
overtemp, only over charge.  But over temperature rapidly decreases the
life of the batteries.  I can't overemphasize monitoring your battery
temperature.

Recently a hybrid system in a remote village using 8o T105 golf cart
batteries in four paralelled banks of 20 in series for 240volts DC.
This system was designed for a seven year life failed after only one
year.   When the manufacturer analyzed the batteries, the failure was
determined to be from overheating.  We went to the site and found that
the operator had disconnected the thermocouple during routine
maintenance and forgot to reconnect thinking it was not that important!

JerryB
Mark Jones - 05 Jun 2005 05:19 GMT
> Recently a hybrid system in a remote village using 8o T105 golf cart
> batteries in four paralelled banks of 20 in series for 240volts DC.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the operator had disconnected the thermocouple during routine
> maintenance and forgot to reconnect thinking it was not that important!
That's an expensive lesson to learn. Having to replace that many
batteries after only one year should be a lesson that doesn't need
repeating.
RichA - 05 Jun 2005 05:39 GMT
>I work with large scale hybrid electric systems using inverters, PV
>solar, wind turbines, batteries and diesel gensets for small remote
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
>JerryB
Hi,
Thanks for the information.  My inverter, a Heart Interface only
tells you how to make it equalize the batteries and that it is on an 8
hour timer unless you shut it off sooner.  It has temp monitoring, in
fact I also installed a temp monitor for the solar controller so the
battery bank has two temp sensors, but as far as I can tell the
inverter only uses the temp sensor to control charging voltage, same
with the solar controller.   Like I said I follow Trojan battery
recommendation to just equalize when the specific gravity in all cells
is low or varies widely from cell to cell.  I did equalize today for
about 3 hours and all 4 golf cart batteries came up to the same
specific gravity reading in all the cells.  They were just a little
low before that.  With the cost of golf cart batteries fairly cheap if
you can get them to last 4 or 5 years that's not to bad.   With all
the extras I've added to the 12V electrical system I would have to get
them to last 15 years. :)

Take care and Happy Campin...

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"
CriticalMass - 13 Jun 2005 15:33 GMT
>I follow Trojan battery
> recommendation to just equalize when the specific gravity in all cells
> is low or varies widely from cell to cell.  I did equalize today for
> about 3 hours and all 4 golf cart batteries came up to the same
> specific gravity reading in all the cells.

Specific gravity is an indicator of state of charge.  Recharging a
serviceable lead-acid battery will restore specific gravity readings.

But equalization is not done for that purpose.  It's done to eliminate
or reduce as much as possible the accumulation of lead sulfate (called
sulfation) on battery plates.
birch999@hotmail.com - 16 Jun 2005 20:30 GMT
>The manual for the Xantrex RC-7 control panel for our inverter says "All
>DC loads should be disconnected during the equalize charge period due to
>the higher voltage applied to the batteries (15+ volts DC)".

Merely a cover-ur-a.s legal caveat. Any 12 VDC appliance that can be
fried at anything less than 25 VDC, deserves to be put out of it's
misery!!

Albeit, while there is no consensus of opinion regarding the efficacy of
battery equalizing. In the absence of any **reliable** and conflicting
info we have chosen to ignore the entire effort as total nonsense!!

As diehard boondockers, having just returned from a Sunday afternoon
stroll from Toronto to Alaska and back; and our seven-year-old coach and
chassis batteries are still performing flawlessly, cycle-after-cycle.

There is no magic whatsoever involved in coaxing batteries to continue
offering excellent service for seven years or more. It all resolves to
understanding basic battery chemistry, and required servicing-needs. If
you understand battery chemistry and how to maintain batteries, then a
mere ten-year replacement interval is a reasonable expectation.

For those who have neither the time nor the inclination to take
advantage of the vagarities of battery chemistry . . . no big deal!!
Batteries are ultra cheap and expendable!!!
Chris Bryant - 16 Jun 2005 22:12 GMT
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:30:51 -0400, birch999 wrote:

> Merely a cover-ur-a.s legal caveat. Any 12 VDC appliance that can be fried
> at anything less than 25 VDC, deserves to be put out of it's misery!!

Now- do you really mean that? Do you think you can plug your TV or
refrigerator in to 250 volts, and honestly expect it to survive?

DC appliances have a hard enough task, merely dealing with 11-14 volts
(the same as an AC appliance dealing with 110 - 140 volts), but most do
quite well.

Even if the circuitry deals with 14.5-16 volts (equalizing voltage), it
will no doubt shorten its lifespan.

Signature

Chris Bryant
http://bryantrv.com

birch999@hotmail.com - 17 Jun 2005 17:57 GMT
>On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:30:51 -0400, birch999 wrote:
>> Merely a cover-ur-a.s legal caveat. Any 12 VDC appliance that can be fried
>> at anything less than 25 VDC, deserves to be put out of it's misery!!
>
>Now- do you really mean that? Do you think you can plug your TV or
>refrigerator in to 250 volts, and honestly expect it to survive?

Aren't you the same Chris Bryant with the F Onan running something like
170 VAC?? <grin>

Without doubt, running a fridge at 250 VAC is going to fry the entire
fridge, if the heating element doesn't melt down first. As for other AC
appliances, they very in tolerance. While some of the better-designed
TVs  *may* tolerate 250 VAC, most cheapies prolly won't.  But stuff like
laptop computer power supplies can handle twice the voltage with ease.

>DC appliances have a hard enough task, merely dealing with 11-14 volts
>(the same as an AC appliance dealing with 110 - 140 volts), but most do
>quite well.

Not really. In engineering 12 VDC appliances, the cost difference
between implementing 25 VDC components vs 16 VDC components is nominal
to the point of being insignificant. So . . . with some 12 volt
alternators cranking out as high as 16.5 volts when cold, it would be
rather irresponsible to design any kind of appliance that couldn't
tolerate voltages up to 25 VDC.

>Even if the circuitry deals with 14.5-16 volts (equalizing voltage), it
>will no doubt shorten its lifespan.

Or not . . . depending upon the parameters. Ultra-cheap engineering
adopted by some of the less reputable RV manufacturers who are committed
to saving the very last farthing in design parameters in favour of
temporary corporate profit. For sure, I could provide a long list the RV
scum-of the-industry manufacturers who figure they can survive from
profits gained from directing sales toward the totally ignorant. :-(

For anyone contemplating a new RV purchase . . .  
Chris Bryant - 17 Jun 2005 19:36 GMT
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:57:20 -0400, birch999 wrote:

>>On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:30:51 -0400, birch999 wrote:
>>> Merely a cover-ur-a.s legal caveat. Any 12 VDC appliance that can be
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Aren't you the same Chris Bryant with the F Onan running something like
> 170 VAC?? <grin>

Har- yes, indeed, though I do believe it cut short the life of my Sony TV-
fried the flyback transformer.

> Without doubt, running a fridge at 250 VAC is going to fry the entire
> fridge, if the heating element doesn't melt down first. As for other AC
> appliances, they very in tolerance. While some of the better-designed
> TVs *may* tolerate 250 VAC, most cheapies prolly won't.  But stuff like
> laptop computer power supplies can handle twice the voltage with ease.

Yabut- they are different animals. The power supply is often meant to
accept anything between 100 (Japan) and 240 (EU) volts, and output the
required voltage to the computer. If the power supply put 20 volts on the
+12 volt line (or 6 volts on the 3.3 volt line)- I doubt the computer
would last long.

>>DC appliances have a hard enough task, merely dealing with 11-14 volts
>>(the same as an AC appliance dealing with 110 - 140 volts), but most do
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> rather irresponsible to design any kind of appliance that couldn't
> tolerate voltages up to 25 VDC.

Well- yes and no. They basically just regulate the power on board the
circuit board. Making the regulator capable of dealing with 25 volts would
add significant heat sink requirements.
Actually, most new refrigerator boards will take up to 17 volts, but they
have to because of "dirty power"- when they filter dc power with a large
ripple, the end voltage will often be 15-17 volts.
I'm sure Dinosaur boards would probably survive- though they use 7812
regulators on board, which are not heat sinked, and I know that Sunbeam
tests their florescent ballasts to 24 volts.

>>Even if the circuitry deals with 14.5-16 volts (equalizing voltage), it
>>will no doubt shorten its lifespan.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> For anyone contemplating a new RV purchase . . .

You would be amazed (or probably not) at the cost cutting that goes on. A
couple of examples- The older Norcold 6XX models- the oem's wanted to save
money, so Norcold built a model with no interior light- probably saving
less than $5 at the oem level. Some oem's delete the start kit option on
air conditioners- the customer complains the A/C won't start- Coleman adds
a start kit under warranty. Dohh!

Signature

Chris Bryant
http://bryantrv.com

 
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