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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / June 2005How much solar power do I need?
I'm starting to plan my boondocking setup and need a rough idea of panel size needed. 13" TV (90 watt 110v) used 2-3 hours in the evening. Radio (12v) used 3-4 hours per day. Couple of 12 volt lights 3-4 hrs per day. Random water pump usage. I will probably have 4-6 batteries onboard at around 1000 CCA ea. (regular automotive batteries, but I can get good used ones for free) How much solar power will I need? thanks, Bax -------------------------------------------------------------- Believe there's life out there? Help Seti! Join my team today! http://tinyurl.com/9nhp6 -------------------------------------------------------------- Electrical, Plumbing & more. Edmonton's Handyman! 406-6911 -------------------------------------------------------------- My YahooGroups: -Camping http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tent_Camping -Freecycle http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freecycle-Edmonton -Survivalism and Preparedness. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/misc_survivalism_moderated -------------------------------------------------------------- My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ -------------------------------------------------------------- > I'm starting to plan my boondocking setup and need a rough idea of > panel size needed. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > How much solar power will I need? With regular automotive batteries in use, you could cover the top of your RV with panels and still wouldn't have enough. Until you put true deep cycle batteries in your RV, you'll be in a losing battle. You also most likely haven't listed everything in your RV that is using watts. Most refrigerators, water heaters, control panels etc require power to operate. Tom J >> I'm starting to plan my boondocking setup and need a rough idea of >> panel size needed. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Tom J You will need to hook up 6v. golf cart batteries. You can do this on multiple batteries. I just changed to them, but the first trip out was cut short by a blown tranny. It's in the shop. But I did notice a difference just sitting in the driveway when I intentionally left stuff on and checked the drain. Solar panel sales places will do a load calculation for you. I would personally go 20% over that. Remember, you are not really going to use the panels to power the equipment all the time, just to charge the batteries. So, get the right batteries. Steve Thanks for responding. :) I have listed all uses of power. My fridge is propane/110volt only. My hot water tank is propane only. No control panel. 1977 Southwind. What, specifically, would be wrong with using automotive batteries? I would, of course, be using Marine Batteries, but I can get the auto batteries for nothing. Bax >> I'm starting to plan my boondocking setup and need a rough idea of >> panel size needed. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Tom J -------------------------------------------------------------- Believe there's life out there? Help Seti! Join my team today! http://tinyurl.com/9nhp6 -------------------------------------------------------------- Electrical, Plumbing & more. Edmonton's Handyman! 406-6911 -------------------------------------------------------------- My YahooGroups: -Camping http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tent_Camping -Freecycle http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freecycle-Edmonton -Survivalism and Preparedness. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/misc_survivalism_moderated -------------------------------------------------------------- My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ -------------------------------------------------------------- > Thanks for responding. :) > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Bax Auto batteries are not made for deep discharge and have lower capacity. Marine batteries are a compromise but still don't have the capacity of a deep discharge. http://www.pacificpowerbatteries.com/aboutbatts/Deep%20Cycle%20Battery%20FAQ/dcf aq4.html http://www.batteryfaq.org The TV is the power hog. If the DC draw is equivalent to the AC, 90W = 7.5 amps at 12 volts. About 25 ampere hours for three hours use. I found that my DC TV draws a significant current even when turned off. It has to be unplugged. Add in you other usages and you might be using 30 or 40 ampere hours per day. For long battery life you should not discharge below 50% state of charge. I consider a small generator such as the Honda along with a good charger to be much more practical than solar. > What, specifically, would be wrong with using automotive batteries? > > I would, of course, be using Marine Batteries, but I can get the auto > batteries for nothing. > > Bax Simply put, they do not work as well as golf cart batteries. You will run out of power sooner. If you boondock, you want to have your power last as long as you can. You can have longer lasting power. Golf cart batteries cost even less than 12v. marine deep cycles, and are available anywhere. They require different wiring, but that is a very easy thing. Steve > Thanks for responding. :) > > I have listed all uses of power. > > My fridge is propane/110volt only. It also draws 12V for the control board & thermostat. > My hot water tank is propane only. The thermostat uses 12V. > No control panel. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I would, of course, be using Marine Batteries, but I can get the auto > batteries for nothing. Any battery with a "CCA" specification is designed to produce a large current for a very short period. A "Marine" battery is an "Automotive" battery that is constructed to withstand slightly higher levels of bouncing. A "Deep Cycle" [trolling motor, golf cart] battery is designed to produce lower levels of current for a prolonged time. Neither one does the other's job very well. A MH needs both types: "Deep Cycle" for the "house" circuits and "Automotive"/"Marine" to start the engine(s) >>> 13" TV (90 watt 110v) used 2-3 hours in the evening. Be sure to unplug it or turn off the inverter: the picture tube heater circuit draws power even with the "On/Off" switch set to "Off". ~9A*3Hr=27AH (IF your 90W is even close. It could be noticeably higher.) If you forget to turn off the inverter or unplug the TV, you could find yourself with a constant draw of up to 5A depending upon the individual TV set. [Older ones draw more.] You might want to consider getting one of the new LCD sets that can run from 12V. Additionally, if your RV has a signal amplifier built in, make sure that you turn IT off when not required. >>> Radio (12v) used 3-4 hours per day ~2A*4Hr=8AH >>> Couple of 12 volt lights 3-4 hrs per day. LED, fluorescent or incandescent? It makes a BIG difference! Measure the current draw. >>> Random water pump usage. Measure the current draw. >>> I will probably have 4-6 batteries onboard at around 1000 CCA ea. >>> (regular automotive batteries, but I can get good used ones for [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >>Tom J What you *really* need to do is to measure the total current draw *at the battery bank* when all of your electric/electronic "goodies" are in operation rather than either guessing or relying upon the mfg's claims. Once you've done this, turn things off one at a time and note down both *what* was turned off and *how much* the total reduction was. Hint #1: You will, probably, not see a *zero* ampere draw even with "everything" turned off/disconnected. Hint #2: You will, probably, need a DC Ammeter capable of indicating a current in excess of 25A. No, sorry. The fridge draws no power. Zip. nada. There is no control board. This is a fridge that is almost 30 years old. And the same for the hot water tank. Bax >> Thanks for responding. :) >> [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >Hint #2: You will, probably, need a DC Ammeter capable of indicating a >current in excess of 25A. -------------------------------------------------------------- Believe there's life out there? Help Seti! Join my team today! http://tinyurl.com/9nhp6 -------------------------------------------------------------- Electrical, Plumbing & more. Edmonton's Handyman! 406-6911 -------------------------------------------------------------- My YahooGroups: -Camping http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tent_Camping -Freecycle http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freecycle-Edmonton -Survivalism and Preparedness. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/misc_survivalism_moderated -------------------------------------------------------------- My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ -------------------------------------------------------------- > No, sorry. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And the same for the hot water tank. You might want to re-check the wiring diagrams for (1) the fridge and (2) the hot water *heater*. [The *tank* has no wiring (unless equipped with a Hott Rod) but there *is* wiring for the hot water *heater*.] You may also have a "live" 12V circuit for an LP Detector as well as one for a CO detector. A simple test to verify: disconnect the ground lead from the battery *then* turn on the fridge and hot water heater. If they work then they don't use 12V but ... My RV hot water tank (propane) is also typical for household hot water tanks. No wiring whatsoever going to the tank or control. Why would it need it? It is a full mechanical control. Good tip for the CO detector. It has an off switch on the unit. Bax >> No, sorry. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >turn on the fridge and hot water heater. If they work then they don't use >12V but ... -------------------------------------------------------------- Believe there's life out there? Help Seti! Join my team today! http://tinyurl.com/9nhp6 -------------------------------------------------------------- Electrical, Plumbing & more. Edmonton's Handyman! 406-6911 -------------------------------------------------------------- My YahooGroups: -Camping http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tent_Camping -Freecycle http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freecycle-Edmonton -Survivalism and Preparedness. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/misc_survivalism_moderated -------------------------------------------------------------- My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ -------------------------------------------------------------- >> No, sorry. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >turn on the fridge and hot water heater. If they work then they don't use >12V but ... I'd tend to agree with the original poster. Note that his RV is a 1977 vintage. My TT is a 1994 model and also does not require any power for the refrigerator or water heater. These are basic units with mechanical thermostats, and mostly trouble free. We don't really need those power-hungry, expensive, troublesome, control boards. ;-) My unit has the following appliances: The Atwood G6A-7 is a propane only water heater. No 110 electric heater, no reignitor, no 12V whatsoever. Just a pilot light, which all by itself can keep the water very hot when usage is low. The Dometic 2510 is a propane/electric refrigerator. It does have a 12V reignitor, but will run just fine without it. The 12V is needed to initially light the pilot, but not needed afterwards. Been there, done that. The big advantage of these sort of appliances is that he does not need to add solar capacity to run them. These appliances (or similar) would be my first pick for a solar powered setup. One note regarding the TV. It may be cheaper in the long run to replace it with a lower power unit, than to add the additional solar capacity to run the power hog. ;-) ........gary Good points. I will rethink my battery types. My lights are fluorescent and incandescent. I am currently switching all lighting to LED. Bax >> Thanks for responding. :) >> [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >Hint #2: You will, probably, need a DC Ammeter capable of indicating a >current in excess of 25A. -------------------------------------------------------------- Believe there's life out there? Help Seti! Join my team today! http://tinyurl.com/9nhp6 -------------------------------------------------------------- Electrical, Plumbing & more. Edmonton's Handyman! 406-6911 -------------------------------------------------------------- My YahooGroups: -Camping http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tent_Camping -Freecycle http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freecycle-Edmonton -Survivalism and Preparedness. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/misc_survivalism_moderated -------------------------------------------------------------- My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ -------------------------------------------------------------- >>Thanks for responding. :) >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >>1977 Southwind. snipped I think you're wrong on his fridge and water heater. Neither need 12v as they don't have control boards. We had the same setup in our '84 Sunline 5th wheel. The fridge had a knob you turned to select either gas or electric. On gas, you lit a pilot light by pushing a button which made a spark and observed the flame via a clear plastic "gage" on the control panel. On a previous trailer we one better. The furnace had no blower, only a pilot light. On that one, only the few lights we needed and the water pump needed 12v. You could camp all week on the same automotive battery. HD in NY slipping out of perfekshun >>>Thanks for responding. :) >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > battery. > HD in NY slipping out of perfekshun Which is why (in a subsequent post) I suggested the simple verification test of *first* disconnecting the battery ground lead *then* attempting to activate the appliances. If they work *then*, well and good: no 12V required. If not ... Your run time (Ah) will be severly limited. By your state ment of Fridge and hot H2o tank you probably have pilot lights for those but is there a 12V line for the valve on the hot water heater? Ed > Thanks for responding. :) > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ > -------------------------------------------------------------- No, it's 100% mechanically controlled. Bax >Your run time (Ah) will be severly limited. By your state ment of Fridge >and hot H2o tank you probably have pilot lights for those but is there a 12V [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] >> My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ >> -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------- Believe there's life out there? Help Seti! Join my team today! http://tinyurl.com/9nhp6 -------------------------------------------------------------- Electrical, Plumbing & more. Edmonton's Handyman! 406-6911 -------------------------------------------------------------- My YahooGroups: -Camping http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tent_Camping -Freecycle http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freecycle-Edmonton -Survivalism and Preparedness. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/misc_survivalism_moderated -------------------------------------------------------------- My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ -------------------------------------------------------------- > I'm starting to plan my boondocking setup and need a rough idea of > panel size needed. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > thanks, > Bax You've received some good replies but no one has addressed the panels themselves. The power rating on panel is PEAK rating and not nom or typ. To have any chance of getting anywhere near peak performance you need an unobstructed view of a CLEAR sky, with panels pointing towards the sun. Anything less than this and your panels will not perform up to their rating. For the money and freedom from location and cloud cover etc., I would go with spending the money of a small quiet genset, one of the 1000w models. They don't care where you are, whether is is day or night, sunny or cloudy. They sip gas at numerous hrs/gal. You'll still need good deep cycle battery(s) and have a converter/charger that can charge at rates of 40 or so A/hr. At the power usage you report an hr or two at most should take care of your needs as you have given. Mickey > > I'm starting to plan my boondocking setup and need a rough idea of > > panel size needed. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Mickey Thanks to all who posted. This lurker has received an education:-)) LB Thank you for all the informed replies people! It will go a long ways to helping me set up things properly. Bax >I'm starting to plan my boondocking setup and need a rough idea of >panel size needed. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ >-------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------- Believe there's life out there? Help Seti! Join my team today! http://tinyurl.com/9nhp6 -------------------------------------------------------------- Electrical, Plumbing & more. Edmonton's Handyman! 406-6911 -------------------------------------------------------------- My YahooGroups: -Camping http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tent_Camping -Freecycle http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Freecycle-Edmonton -Survivalism and Preparedness. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/misc_survivalism_moderated -------------------------------------------------------------- My E-Bay Auctions: http://members.ebay.ca/aboutme/bax2005/ -------------------------------------------------------------- >Thank you for all the informed replies people! > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> >>Bax Don't let some of the battery discussion here dissuade you from using 12V batteries. While I'd tend to agree with the use of 6V golf cart type batteries for a slow charging solar setup, the 12V automotive type would be preferred for quick charging via a generator - should you go that route. Here is a interesting thread from someone very knowledgable on the subject: http://groups-beta.google.com/groups?as_umsgid=uosb70t9191l51fa7oaod8v4e2ctfk1q3 j@4ax.com I'd suggest googling up some other discussions by Neon John on this subject as well - very informative! ....gary
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