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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / August 2005

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Tire size and final rear axle ratio

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lanman - 21 Aug 2005 06:41 GMT
I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
than I already have. I was wondering...............

If a person has 4.11 gears but increases the tire size in order to
change the final gear ratio, will that deliver better mileage than
with the standard tires.

I was thinking about using two sets of tires - one set when towing and
one set when not towing. The first set would be the standard tires
delivered on the truck from the factory which would result in the
factory specified 4.11 gear ratio. The second set would be much
oversized tires to reduce the final gear ratio in hopes of getting
better mileage.

Will this work? I'm not considering any safety issues at this point.
Thanks...
Hunter - 21 Aug 2005 03:54 GMT
>I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
>gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
>than I already have. I was wondering...............>

How heavy is the trailer you're towing?

>If a person has 4.11 gears but increases the tire size in order to
>change the final gear ratio, will that deliver better mileage than
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>oversized tires to reduce the final gear ratio in hopes of getting
>better mileage. >

By the time you pay for the 4 new tires and the gear change you can
buy an awful lot of gas don't you think?

Hunter

http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!"
lanman - 22 Aug 2005 07:11 GMT
>>I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
>>gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
>>than I already have. I was wondering...............>
>
>How heavy is the trailer you're towing?

About 12,000 lbs.

>>If a person has 4.11 gears but increases the tire size in order to
>>change the final gear ratio, will that deliver better mileage than
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Hunter

Yea, I was thinking more about my next truck. I'm planning to get one
with 4.11's, but would like better mileage when not towing. That's why
I was thinking about a second set of oversized tires to put on the
truck when *not* towing to raise the final gear ratio in hopes of
increasing gas mileage. Disregarding the cost of the extra tires, do
you think it will work? I know it affects the speedometer and you have
to be careful you're not exceeding the posted limits.


William. Boyd - 22 Aug 2005 04:46 GMT
>>>I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
>>>gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> you think it will work? I know it affects the speedometer and you have
> to be careful you're not exceeding the posted limits.

You might want to look in to a two speed rear end or a second
overdrive. All of course are after market items that would not look
favorable on the warranty.

Signature

BILL P.

2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram,
SLT, SWB, 2WD,
5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans,
Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner,
Husky 16K. Voyager Controller
2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi.
Dual EU2000i Hondas
Just Me and Dog

Frank Tabor - 22 Aug 2005 16:11 GMT
>>>>I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
>>>>gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>overdrive. All of course are after market items that would not look
>favorable on the warranty.

There is no warranty on a 1999 truck.
Signature

Frank Tabor

William. Boyd - 22 Aug 2005 16:44 GMT
>>>>>I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
>>>>>gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> There is no warranty on a 1999 truck.
Frank did you read this? "Yea, I was thinking more about my next
truck." I thought he was considering a new rig, but you can put
those things on any age truck you want.

Signature

BILL P.

2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram,
SLT, SWB, 2WD,
5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans,
Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner,
Husky 16K. Voyager Controller
2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi.
Dual EU2000i Hondas
Just Me and Dog

Chris Hill - 22 Aug 2005 15:24 GMT
>Yea, I was thinking more about my next truck. I'm planning to get one
>with 4.11's, but would like better mileage when not towing. That's why
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>you think it will work? I know it affects the speedometer and you have
>to be careful you're not exceeding the posted limits.

You'd never really know how fast you were going.  I think I'd just buy
a cheap small car to go along with the new truck, the truck will last
longer and you'll keep some money out of the oil companys' pockets.
William. Boyd - 22 Aug 2005 16:45 GMT
>>Yea, I was thinking more about my next truck. I'm planning to get one
>>with 4.11's, but would like better mileage when not towing. That's why
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> a cheap small car to go along with the new truck, the truck will last
> longer and you'll keep some money out of the oil companys' pockets.

That sounds like the best way to do it.

Signature

BILL P.

2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram,
SLT, SWB, 2WD,
5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans,
Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner,
Husky 16K. Voyager Controller
2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi.
Dual EU2000i Hondas
Just Me and Dog

Wayne - 25 Aug 2005 04:05 GMT
> Yea, I was thinking more about my next truck. I'm planning to get one
> with 4.11's, but would like better mileage when not towing. That's why
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you think it will work? I know it affects the speedometer and you have
> to be careful you're not exceeding the posted limits.

What you're proposing will work.  The larger tires will have a similar
effect as installing a final gear with a lower numberical number.  
Putting larger outside diameter tire on a truck with 4.11 gears will
move the overall gearing taller, making it's performance move towards
that of a truck with 3.73 gears.  The percentage change in diameter of
the larger tires will be the same percentage change in speedometer
accuracy, which will also be the same percentage change in the final
drive ratio number.  I don't know how much increase in fuel mileage
you'll get, however.

It's worth considering the expense of the extra wheels and tires
compared to a second over drive type of gear such as that made by US
Gear.

Signature

Wayne

lanman - 25 Aug 2005 09:26 GMT
>> Yea, I was thinking more about my next truck. I'm planning to get one
>> with 4.11's, but would like better mileage when not towing. That's why
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>compared to a second over drive type of gear such as that made by US
>Gear.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure I'll actually go through with
it, but I might since I usually run to sets of tires with all my
vehicles - one set for summer driving, and one set for winter/off
road. I'll just make my summer tires, when I do the most towing, the
standard size which gives me the desired 4.11 ratio. Cheers.
Wayne - 26 Aug 2005 02:33 GMT
> Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure I'll actually go through with
> it, but I might since I usually run to sets of tires with all my
> vehicles - one set for summer driving, and one set for winter/off
> road. I'll just make my summer tires, when I do the most towing, the
> standard size which gives me the desired 4.11 ratio. Cheers.

I understand.  I like considering options myself.  I have a friend with
a Ford Powerstroke, 4.11 gears and the 6sp manual.  To put a US gear
type addtional overdrive/underdrive behind the whole thing would make it
a really flexible set up.  But I've never used their product so I'm only
dreaming a bit.

To do it right you'd want to get a gearging chart spreadsheet going and
think through carefully the engine rpms at given speeds in given gears.  
That can be fun when you're in the mood for it.

Signature

Wayne

Will Sill - 26 Aug 2005 12:01 GMT
I see where Wayne <waynelindberg@goldengate.net> contributed:

>I understand.  I like considering options myself.  I have a friend with
>a Ford Powerstroke, 4.11 gears and the 6sp manual.  To put a US gear
>type addtional overdrive/underdrive behind the whole thing would make it
>a really flexible set up.  But I've never used their product so I'm only
>dreaming a bit.

I have used it and although it has certain clear advantages
"flexibility" isn't a Big Deal.   Behind a 6-speed tranny it would be
a waste, since we found it awkward at best to shift it on the fly.  

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Chris Cowles - 26 Aug 2005 02:01 GMT
I've heard somewhere that putting larger diameter tires on a vehicle
increases the centripetal force, thereby increasing the power required to
rotate the wheel/tire combination, and also increasing the braking power
required to stop the same wheel/tire combination.

While the difference may be small relative to the vehicle in question, it's
not zero, is it?

Is this even a valid concern?
Signature

Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL
'00 Coleman Mesa/'99 Chevy Astro

> What you're proposing will work.  The larger tires will have a similar
> effect as installing a final gear with a lower numberical number.
> ...
Wayne - 26 Aug 2005 03:06 GMT
> I've heard somewhere that putting larger diameter tires on a vehicle
> increases the centripetal force, thereby increasing the power required to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Is this even a valid concern?

You could logically assume that the larger tires would both weigh more
and hold that weight further from the axle.  That combination would
store more energy as kinetic energy like adding flywheel weight.  It
would require more torque to accelerate the tire rotation, but once up
to speed the power requirements would be only dependent on the
frictional losses in the bearings, oils, air resistance, etc.  So you
would only see a change in acceleration not power consumed driving down
the road.  These considerations are taken into account with light weight
wheels and tires as used on race cars, but I doubt they would be
noticeable on a pickup truck and trailer combination.  Certainly not
zero.

I'm not sure about the brakes.  They would probably require some
additional pedal effort (probably not noticeable) to overcome the
additional leverage of the larger diameter tires, but the amount of
energy required to be absorbed and dissipated by the rotor will remain
that of the kinetic energy of the vehicle.  So fade problems should not
be increased.

Signature

Wayne

Will Sill - 26 Aug 2005 11:57 GMT
I see where "Chris Cowles" <NoSpam@For.me> contributed:
>I've heard somewhere that putting larger diameter tires on a vehicle
>increases the centripetal force, thereby increasing the power required to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>While the difference may be small relative to the vehicle in question, it's
>not zero, is it?

Not zero - and can be important with extreme size change (imitating
Bigfoot).   But within normal wheel wells it is not a Big Deal.

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Sandy A. Nicolaysen - 21 Aug 2005 04:16 GMT
>I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
>gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Will this work? I'm not considering any safety issues at this point.
>Thanks...

Take a look at http://www.4lo.com/calc/gearratio.htm

But it is not as easy as that because you need to know the rpm range
where your engine runs at the highest efficiency, or power band.

When doing the calculations, consider what you need to tow in "drive"
when the transmission doesn't do any work, because the crankshaft of
the engine and the drive shaft turn the same speed.

- Sandy
Chris Hill - 21 Aug 2005 16:25 GMT
>I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
>gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
>Will this work? I'm not considering any safety issues at this point.

I doubt if you'd save any money.  Changing the gear ratio, especially
if your vehicle has 4wd isn't going to be cheap.  Unless you're towing
a trailer that is too big for your truck, best off to leave it alone
and lock out od when necessary.
Steve Barker LT - 22 Aug 2005 01:33 GMT
I too, vote for just pulling it down a gear when towing.  What engine and
what trailer?  3.73's should pull ok, unless you're up against maximum
limitations.

Signature

Steve Barker

>I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
> gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Newsgroups
> ---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
William. Boyd - 22 Aug 2005 03:22 GMT
> I have an F250 with 3.73 gears. There are times I wish I had 4.11
> gears when towing, but I also hate the thought of worse gas mileage
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Will this work? I'm not considering any safety issues at this point.
> Thanks...

I have a vehicle relatively the same as you have , different brand,
but the way technology is these days they pretty well compare. I
have a down shift button on mine where one position is used for
towing or hauling and the other is normal road use. This does not
just take it out of overdrive, it changes the shifting speeds for
the other gears as well. Yours might do the same thing.
Signature


BILL P.

2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram,
SLT, SWB, 2WD,
5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans,
Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner,
Husky 16K. Voyager Controller
2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi.
Dual EU2000i Hondas
Just Me and Dog

 
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