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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / September 2005

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Canada- No guns, huh

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unk - 02 Sep 2005 02:55 GMT
OTTAWA (Reuters) - More than 40 Canadian border guards walked off the
job this week to demand they be issued with handguns, and a union
official said on Thursday that others could follow suit unless Ottawa
issues them with weapons.

The guards, worried by reports that a U.S. fugitive could be trying to
cross into Canada, left their posts at crossings in Fort Erie and
Niagara Falls, Ontario, on Wednesday, causing some delay to border
traffic.

Canadian police are armed and the guards' union has been pressing for
firearms for its members, saying they need better protection to do
their jobs.

"Our members want to do the job of protecting the border but they need
to properly protect themselves to do that," Ron Moran, head of the
guards' union said in a statement.

"Until that happens, work refusals will likely reoccur."

A spokesman for Public Security Minister Anne McLellan, who has
overall responsibility for border security, said a recent independent
study showed there was no need to arm the guards.

"Arrangements are made with police to ensure that when an armed
presence is needed, the police can be contacted to work with the
border agents to address a situation," he said.
Ron K - 02 Sep 2005 23:53 GMT
> OTTAWA (Reuters) - More than 40 Canadian border guards walked off the
> job this week to demand they be issued with handguns, and a union
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> presence is needed, the police can be contacted to work with the
> border agents to address a situation," he said.

I cross into Canada several times per year and have for many years.
Based on my experience, Canada has adopted the correct policy for
these "guards".  Most of the ones I have met would more than likely
hurt themselves if issued a firearm.

Ron K.
Bad Apple - 03 Sep 2005 02:14 GMT
ROTFLMAO - good one.

Signature

QuickSilver - Visit my world
Searching for a Class A Coach in SoCal
http://AustinMini.OsiTech.Net

> Based on my experience, Canada has adopted the correct policy for
> these "guards".  Most of the ones I have met would more than likely
> hurt themselves if issued a firearm.
geek - 03 Sep 2005 06:08 GMT
Come on up, bring an undeclared gun, and please, go through Sweetgrass
Montana. I need a new motorhome. Yours will go for a cheap price at auction.
Our guys can more then handle themselves.

The Border Services protect us. Your DHS let terrorists in to the States in
New York.You can't even protect your own people from yourselves.

YOU DO NOT NEED GUNS. We don't have them and we don't worry about anyone
else having them except idiots from the Excited States Of America.

>> OTTAWA (Reuters) - More than 40 Canadian border guards walked off
> the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Ron K.
Michael D. Henderson - 03 Sep 2005 14:54 GMT
> YOU DO NOT NEED GUNS. We don't have them and we don't worry about anyone
> else having them except idiots from the Excited States Of America.

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are
neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make
things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve
rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be
attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

mdh
*Wade - 03 Sep 2005 16:39 GMT
>> YOU DO NOT NEED GUNS. We don't have them and we don't worry about anyone
>> else having them except idiots from the Excited States Of America.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> mdh

Oh, stuff the Bullshit statistics has proven exactly the opposite.
Wade
Paul <"cultuslake - 04 Sep 2005 08:51 GMT
> "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are
> neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> mdh

That is a really, really stupid statement.

First of all, Canada does not forbid the carrying of guns.  With certain
exceptions, it is illegal to possess a handgun.  The chances of someone in
Canada being shot with a hand gun are not even close to what they are in the
U.S., and when it does happen, almost invariably they are "known to police",
i.e., criminals, mainly gang members, shooting each other.

Have someone explain statistics to you, and check them before coming up with
another gem

Paul.
Frank Tabor - 05 Sep 2005 22:01 GMT
>First of all, Canada does not forbid the carrying of guns.

Speaking of stupid statements.  It's kinda hard to carry something you
can't own.  Moron.
Signature

Frank Tabor

Paul <"cultuslake - 06 Sep 2005 04:28 GMT
> >First of all, Canada does not forbid the carrying of guns.
>
> Speaking of stupid statements.  It's kinda hard to carry something you
> can't own.  Moron.
> --
> Frank Tabor

I happen to own 3.  Legally.  In Canada.

Unless you have some idea what you're talking about, don't pass up a good
opportunity to shut up.  It'll fool people into thinking that you're
intelligent.

Paul
R.J.(Bob) Evans - 06 Sep 2005 16:10 GMT
>Unless you have some idea what you're talking about, don't pass up a good
>opportunity to shut up.  It'll fool people into thinking that you're
>intelligent.

You would be well advised to heed your own advice if you are going to
try to defend our dumbass gun laws.  Canuck gun laws make criminals
out of decent citizens.  

As far as the comment about arming border guards is concerned - it
would disturb me to see our keystone cop crossing guards armed.  Most
of them are barely competent to tie their oversize boots, let alone
carry a sidearm.  They would be a great hazard to themselves and their
fellow officers were they to be armed, to say nothing of the risk to
innocent travellers who happened to offend their short-dick
sensibilities.

Crossing guards on either side of the 49th parallel are nonsense.  If
we truly wanted north american security there are a host of ways to
better spend the money.  Creating employment for the unemployable is
the only excuse for continuing to have crossing guards on the 49th.

R.J.(Bob) Evans
(return address needs alteration to work)
Paul <"cultuslake - 06 Sep 2005 19:12 GMT
"R.J.(Bob) Evans" wrote:>

> You would be well advised to heed your own advice if you are going to
> try to defend our dumbass gun laws.  Canuck gun laws make criminals
> out of decent citizens.

I wasn't trying to defend our gun laws. Quite frankly, I think our gun laws,
and many of our other laws, stink.  I merely countered his implication that
"gun" ownership was not allowed in Canada.

Paul
Ken Harrison - 05 Sep 2005 07:16 GMT
>> YOU DO NOT NEED GUNS. We don't have them and we don't worry about
>> anyone else having them except idiots from the Excited States Of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed
> man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."

Since you used quotation marks, just who are you quoting, and from what
source?

Ken H
Michael D. Henderson - 05 Sep 2005 14:28 GMT
>>> YOU DO NOT NEED GUNS. We don't have them and we don't worry about
>>> anyone else having them except idiots from the Excited States Of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Ken H

Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in his 'Commonplace Book' 1775

mdh
Paul <"cultuslake - 05 Sep 2005 20:08 GMT
> >> "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are
> >> neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> mdh

If you're implying that every statement made 200+ years ago by a man who,
among other things felt it was ok to own slaves, then please allow me to
revise my previous answer to you:

You are a very, very stupid person!

And please feel fee to quote me.

Paul
Frank Tabor - 05 Sep 2005 22:02 GMT
>You are a very, very stupid person!

Yes you are.  If you're a Canadian, f.ck off.  You have no right to
discuss our politics.  You folks can't even mind your own business,
much less ours.
Signature

Frank Tabor

Ken Harrison - 06 Sep 2005 04:18 GMT
>>You are a very, very stupid person!
>
> Yes you are.  If you're a Canadian, f.ck off.  You have no right to
> discuss our politics.  You folks can't even mind your own business,
> much less ours.

On the other hand, it is perfectly alright for the US to mind the
business of most every other nation in the world, to stick our noses
into their internal politics, and to maintain that they are a threat to
the US if, ultimately, we cannot change their politics by any means
other than force.

KH
Paul <"cultuslake - 06 Sep 2005 04:33 GMT
> >You are a very, very stupid person!
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> --
> Frank Tabor

I discussed politics?  I answered the other clown who tried make a
statement made by some American over 200 years ago appear relevant to
present day Canada.

See my other post to you and take the advice to heart.

Paul
Ted - 06 Sep 2005 16:34 GMT
>>You are a very, very stupid person!
>
> Yes you are.  If you're a Canadian, f.ck off.  You have no right to
> discuss our politics.  You folks can't even mind your own business,
> much less ours.

I see where Frank's planed weekend with his flame was a disappointment, what
is the matter Frank the noodle went limp.
Frank Tabor - 06 Sep 2005 17:47 GMT
>>>You are a very, very stupid person!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I see where Frank's planed weekend with his flame was a disappointment, what
>is the matter Frank the noodle went limp.

Yeah, I got tired of you sucking in it.  Gave me blisters.
Signature

Frank Tabor

Ken Harrison - 06 Sep 2005 06:13 GMT
>> Since you used quotation marks, just who are you quoting, and from
>> what source?
>>
>> Ken H
>
> Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in his 'Commonplace Book' 1775

Ah yes, the 18th Century Italian philosopher, who also argued against
capital punishment (I assume you agree with his position on that matter,
too), who suggested that government control of a product led to the
smuggling of that very product (do you suppose that there is a lesson
here for the idiotic "war on drugs," or is that a 200-year old thought
that is NOT relevant to today's world?).  How does one choose which
quote to quote and which quote to ignore?

I suspect that you found the quote on a Web page which is a collection
of quotes from famous people in support of the arming of the populace.
I would remind you that the citizens of Rome were also armed, in their
own way for the time.  Didn't work then, either.

KH
Michael D. Henderson - 07 Sep 2005 01:58 GMT
> Ah yes, the 18th Century Italian philosopher, who also argued against
> capital punishment (I assume you agree with his position on that matter,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that is NOT relevant to today's world?).  How does one choose which
> quote to quote and which quote to ignore?

    You make incorrect assumptions.  For one, I absolutely agree that
government control of a product leads to smuggling of that very product.
 Thus, I do believe that the "war on drugs" is doomed to failure, much
as I believe that trying to outlaw firearms will lead to the same
result.  I also believe (mostly, but not absolutely) that capital
punishment is wrong, although I will agree that certain heinous crimes
will inevitably make me wish at times for a long, painful death for the
perpetrator.  So it seems that your semi-rhetorical question about me
choosing among quotes that I would ignore arises from a guess at my
personal beliefs that is wide of the mark.

> I suspect that you found the quote on a Web page which is a collection
> of quotes from famous people in support of the arming of the
populace. > I would remind you that the citizens of Rome were also
armed, in their > own way for the time.  Didn't work then, either.

    I honestly can't recall where I first read the quote that was the
basis of your original query; It's been quite a long time, but that
isn't relevant, and neither is your Rome strawman.  The relevance of the
quote lies in in the way it points out that making legal firearms (arms,
actually) posession difficult is a shallow logic which ignores human
behavior and paradoxically would result in quite the opposite situation.
 The fault lies in the belief that either all human beings law-abiding
or that society can easily identify and disarm those who would not obey
such laws.  Unfortunately, that is not the way it is in the real world.

mdh
wcrbudox - 03 Sep 2005 23:20 GMT
That is a typical attitude of the, I know what is best for you, liberals.
Most people have no trouble learning the proper use of firearms with the
obvious exception of liberals
geek - 06 Sep 2005 04:27 GMT
I am not a Liberal. I do not believe in the need to carry a gun. I do not
know a single person who owns one. The only people who carry a gun here are
cops and criminals.

You do not need an assault rifle to hunt. You do not need a hand gun unless
you are going to sommit a crime. It is that simple.

As for politics, shove em up your a.s. This is not about politics.

> That is a typical attitude of the, I know what is best for you, liberals.
> Most people have no trouble learning the proper use of firearms with the
> obvious exception of liberals
Frank Tabor - 06 Sep 2005 17:49 GMT
>I am not a Liberal. I do not believe in the need to carry a gun. I do not
>know a single person who owns one. The only people who carry a gun here are
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>As for politics, shove em up your a.s. This is not about politics.

So, President Bush owns guns and isn't a cop, so therefore he is a
criminal, is that what you are saying?  Or are you saying you are a
complete f.cking idiot
Signature

Frank Tabor

Hunter - 06 Sep 2005 18:53 GMT
>>I am not a Liberal. I do not believe in the need to carry a gun. I do not
>>know a single person who owns one. The only people who carry a gun here are
>>cops and criminals.

Huh? What do Canadians hunt with?

Or... do only cops and criminals go hunting?

Hunter
--

http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!"
R.J.(Bob) Evans - 06 Sep 2005 20:16 GMT
>>>I am not a Liberal. I do not believe in the need to carry a gun. I do not
>>>know a single person who owns one. The only people who carry a gun here are
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Or... do only cops and criminals go hunting?

No, ordinary citizens can still go hunting but the plethora of dumbass
laws and permits required are making hunting increasingly difficult to
the point where most people don't bother anymore.  

In theory, if you want to jump through all the hoops and sell your
soul to the bureaucracy, you can still own and use long guns in this
country.  

R.J.(Bob) Evans
(return address needs alteration to work)
Lindakay - 03 Sep 2005 13:25 GMT
> OTTAWA (Reuters) - More than 40 Canadian border guards walked off the
> job this week to demand they be issued with handguns, and a union
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> presence is needed, the police can be contacted to work with the
> border agents to address a situation," he said.

Hi -

Here's a link outlining Canada's laws for brining firearms into Canada:

http://www.cfc-ccaf.gc.ca/info_for-renseignement/factsheets/visitin_e.asp

"Firearm Users Visiting Canada

The Canada Border Services Agency is responsible for controlling items
brought into Canada. However, here is some basic information if you
wish to bring a firearm or other item regulated by the Firearms Act
into Canada.

The Firearms Act is a federal law and applies all across the country.
Provinces may have additional requirements, especially with respect to
hunting.

You must be at least 18 years old to bring a firearm into Canada. If
you are younger than 18, you may use a firearm in certain
circumstances, but an adult must remain responsible for the firearm.

If you have been convicted of anything considered a criminal offence in
Canada, including driving under the influence of drugs or alcohol, you
will need to get approval of rehabilitation or a temporary immigration
permit from Canada's Minister of Citizenship and Immigration before
you can enter Canada. Contact the nearest Canadian embassy or consulate
for more information.

Classes of Firearms and Devices

There are three classes of firearms in Canada:

   * Non-restricted (most common rifles and shotguns): These may
generally be imported for purposes such as hunting, protection from
wild animals in remote wilderness areas where firearms are allowed, or
target-shooting. They may also be taken in transit through Canada by a
reasonably direct route.
   * Restricted: These are allowed for certain purposes, such as
target shooting at an approved club or range, but they are not allowed
for hunting or self-protection.
   * Prohibited: You cannot bring a prohibited firearm into Canada.

Some firearms are classified as restricted or prohibited under the
Criminal Code based on their general characteristics (e.g. barrel
length or calibre); other restricted and prohibited firearms are
specified by name in Criminal Code Regulations.

Some large-capacity magazines are prohibited even if the firearms to
which the magazines are attached are allowed. As a general rule, the
maximum capacity is:

   * five cartridges for most magazines designed for a centre fire
semi-automatic long gun; and
   * ten cartridges for most handgun magazines.

There is no maximum magazine capacity for other types of long guns,
including semi-automatics that discharge only rim-fire ammunition.

Replica firearms, except for replicas of antique firearms, are
prohibited and cannot be brought into Canada. Replica firearms are
devices that look exactly or almost exactly like a real firearm but
that cannot discharge a projectile or that can only discharge harmless
projectiles. As a rule, to be prohibited, a device must closely
resemble an existing make and model of firearm, not just a generic
firearm. Many of these devices have to be assessed case by case.

Devices designed exclusively for signaling purposes (e.g. flare guns),
and intended to be used solely for that purpose, are exempt from the
requirements set out below.

Prohibited Firearms

This fact sheet answers some of the most common questions about how the
Firearms Act applies to prohibited firearms.
What firearms are prohibited?

The Criminal Code defines the following firearms as prohibited:

   * automatics, including those that have been converted so that they
can only fire one projectile when the trigger is squeezed;
   * handguns with a barrel length of 105 mm (4.1 inches) or less, and
handguns that discharge .25 or .32 calibre ammunition, except for a few
specific models used in International Shooting Union competitions;.
   * rifles and shotguns that have been altered so that their barrel
length is less than 457 mm (about 18 inches) or their overall length is
less than 660 mm (about 26 inches); or
   * any firearm prescribed as prohibited - These can be found in
the fact sheet listing restricted and prohibited firearms.

Who can have prohibited firearms?

You are allowed to possess certain prohibited firearms if you had one
registered in your name when it became prohibited and you continuously
hold a valid registration certificate for that type of prohibited
firearm from December 1, 1998 onward. The Firearms Act refers to this
as being "grandfathered".
Does my grandfathered status allow me to acquire all types of
prohibited firearms?

A Possession and Acquisition Licence (PAL) only allows you to acquire
prohibited firearms in the same categories as the ones currently
registered to you, and only if the firearms you wish to acquire were
registered in Canada on December 1, 1998.

As a general rule, your PAL will indicate what prohibited firearms you
are licensed to acquire by showing the section of the Firearms Act that
grandfathers you, as follows:

  1. 12(2) means full automatics.
  2. 12(3) means converted automatics.
  3. 12(4) means firearms prohibited by former prohibition order No.
12. You can find out which firearms are in this category on the fact
sheet listing restricted and prohibited firearms.
  4. 12(5) means firearms prohibited by former prohibition order No
13. These, too, are listed in the fact sheet listing restricted and
prohibited firearms.
  5. 12(6) means handguns with a barrel length of 105 mm or less or
that discharge .25 or .32 calibre ammunition. On licences issued on or
after April 10, 2005, these firearms will be referred to as 12(6.1)
firearms.

Your eligibility to acquire a particular prohibited firearm will be
confirmed during the transfer process.

Grandfathered status allows you to possess and acquire prohibited
firearms that are already registered in Canada, but not to bring a
prohibited firearm into Canada as a new import.
What do I need to do to maintain my grandfathered privileges?

To stay grandfathered for a particular category of prohibited firearm,
you must continuously hold a valid registration certificate for a
firearm in that category from December 1, 1998 onward. A registration
certificate is valid only if your firearms licence is valid, so make
sure you renew your licence before it expires.

All registration certificates issued under the former law (prior to
December 1, 1998) expired on December 31, 2002 so it was important to
have re-registered it under the Firearms Act before the old certificate
expired. If you have not re-registered your prohibited firearms, please
call 1 800 731-4000 to find out your options.
Can I acquire a prohibited firearm if I am not grandfathered?

No you cannot:

Exception: If you are not grandfathered, the only prohibited firearms
you may possess or acquire are handguns with a barrel length of 105 mm
or less or that discharge .25 or .32 calibre ammunition, and only if
all of the following criteria are met:

   * the handgun was made before 1946, and
   * the handgun was registered in Canada on December 1, 1998, and
   * you are the child, grandchild, brother, sister or spouse of the
lawful owner, and
   * you are acquiring it for an approved purpose such as target
shooting or as part of a collection.

In these circumstances, you can lawfully possess the handgun in
question, but you are not grandfathered or authorized to acquire more
prohibited handguns.
Can I sell, give or lend a prohibited firearm to someone else?

You can lend a prohibited firearm to anyone with a valid
Possession-Only Licence (POL) or PAL authorizing them to possess that
particular category of prohibited firearm. If you lend a firearm, you
must lend the registration certificate as well.

You may sell or give a prohibited firearm only to someone with a PAL
that is valid for that category of firearm. When a firearm changes
owners, it must be registered to the new owner. This can be done by
calling 1 800 731-4000 or by submitting form CAFC 681.
What do I need to do to transport a prohibited firearm?

All firearms must be unloaded and transported safely to deter loss,
theft and accidents.

Before transporting a prohibited firearm yourself, you need to get an
Authorization to Transport (ATT) from the Chief Firearms Officer (CFO)
of the province in which the firearm is located. You can apply by
calling 1 800 731-4000 or by submitting form CAFC 679 and mailing or
faxing it to your CFO.

The firearms must be transported in accordance with the Storage,
Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals
Regulations.

Prohibited handguns may be shipped between two locations in Canada,
using the most secure method offered by Canada Post that requires a
signature upon delivery. Alternatively, it may be shipped by a carrier
company licensed to transport that class of firearm.
Information

For more information, contact us by one of the following methods:

telephone: 1 800 731-4000 (Toll Free)

web site: www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca

e-mail: cfc-cafc@cfc-cafc.gc.ca

This fact sheet is intended to provide general information only. For
legal references, please refer to the Firearms Act and its regulations.

Provincial, territorial and municipal laws, regulations and policies
may also apply."

Lindakay

an American/Canadian
 
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