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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / September 2005

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Braking system for towed vehicles

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frank907 - 20 Sep 2005 02:51 GMT
Just purchased a 2004 Saturn Vue for towing and need some info. When
starting to get tow parts needed I was told that I must add a $1200.00
braking assist unit in the towed vehicle to comply with the law. Any towed
auto over 1500 pounds must have this or the owner will be ticketed by an
officer if stopped by him. Is this true or just the items manufacturer
trying to scare us into getting it. My RV can tow up to 3500 pounds and
there is no mention of any additional equipment needed when towing. Thanks
for any comments.
Bob Hatch - 20 Sep 2005 02:57 GMT
> Just purchased a 2004 Saturn Vue for towing and need some info. When
> starting to get tow parts needed I was told that I must add a $1200.00
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> up to 3500 pounds and there is no mention of any additional equipment
> needed when towing. Thanks for any comments.

Here is a summary of the laws:
http://www.brakebuddy.com/towing_laws.html
Signature

"Everyday I beat my own previous record for number
of consecutive days I have stayed alive."
http://www.bobhatch.com
http://www.tdsrvresort.com

frank907 - 21 Sep 2005 01:54 GMT
Your answer is the same as the RV parts salesman. I would like to know if
others do use a braking system when towing their car. We go to Quartsite
alot and see hundreds of towed cars and only see tow-bar hookups. Why does
Fleetwoods manual say that we can tow a 3500# car with the braking system on
the RV?  And while towing I plan to drive slower which is safer and common
sense would cause me to give myself more stopping distance.

Frank

> > Just purchased a 2004 Saturn Vue for towing and need some info. When
> > starting to get tow parts needed I was told that I must add a $1200.00
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> http://www.bobhatch.com
> http://www.tdsrvresort.com
Bob Hatch - 21 Sep 2005 03:04 GMT
> Your answer is the same as the RV parts salesman. I would like to
> know if others do use a braking system when towing their car. We go
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> slower which is safer and common sense would cause me to give myself
> more stopping distance.

It was not my answer. It was a list of State Laws. I didn't write them, I
posted the link.

We use a Brake Buddy.

I doubt that the Fleetwood manual says that you can tow a 3500# car with the
braking system on the RV. If it does it would be unusual.

If you have an accident, and someone gets killed or hurt,  and you are in
violation of the State Law where the accident happens, have lots, and lots
of insurance.

How do you know that you only see tow bar hookups. Our Brake Buddy is in the
trunk when we're not using it. Other brands, types only use a wire to hook
the system up.

I wouldn't pull the car without the assisted brake system.
Signature

"Everyday I beat my own previous record for number
of consecutive days I have stayed alive."
http://www.bobhatch.com
http://www.tdsrvresort.com

frank907@sbcglobal.net - 22 Sep 2005 00:31 GMT
Hi Bob,
I am finding that this towing brake system is so vague that no state is
enforcing it yet. Canada does but that is not a state and they are rough on
RVer from what I read. The weight placard on my RV shows the GCVW (RV &
towed vehicle) to be 17,550 for this vehicle and the RV maximum weight is
14,060. The book states that the RVs braking system WILL support the posted
GCVW but there is a disclaimer in the book stating to check with your state
for the "maximum unbraked towed vehicle weight allowed". In California it is
1500# and my Saturn is 3500#. The RV can and will support it but it does not
comply with the laws. Fleetwood says I can and the state says I can not.
Just another case of big corps lying through their noses to make a profit.
But luckily their lobbiest must have the pull to cause states not to enforce
things yet. And then you have the dealerships and RV stores doing the safety
scare thing to make the $3500 sale to make the car towable.

Frank

> > Your answer is the same as the RV parts salesman. I would like to
> > know if others do use a braking system when towing their car. We go
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> http://www.bobhatch.com
> http://www.tdsrvresort.com
Bob Hatch - 22 Sep 2005 03:19 GMT
. And then you have the dealerships and RV stores
> doing the safety scare thing to make the $3500 sale to make the car
> towable.
>
> Frank

I thought you said the brake system was $1200.00.

Signature

"Everyday I beat my own previous record for number
of consecutive days I have stayed alive."
http://www.bobhatch.com
http://www.tdsrvresort.com

frank907 - 23 Sep 2005 04:11 GMT
Bob,
Yes, just the Brake Buddy itself was $1200. The locals here get $3500 to
make an RV ready to tow what you bring them. I shop around and do alot
myself.

Frank
> . And then you have the dealerships and RV stores
> > doing the safety scare thing to make the $3500 sale to make the car
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> http://www.bobhatch.com
> http://www.tdsrvresort.com
Will Sill - 21 Sep 2005 12:02 GMT
I see where "frank907" <frank907@sbcglobal.net> contributed:
>Your answer is the same as the RV parts salesman. I would like to know if
>others do use a braking system when towing their car.

If you are one of those sheep who just try to do what others do, why
not go back to Quartzite, do a poll of who has what, and buy the most
popular brand.

OTOH, if you have any real interest in your safety, you'll do the
research to see what brake system is best for your use. Please don't
be penny wise and pound foolish - you apparently think you NEED to
drag a car along with you, so you'll NEED braking the first time some
idjit pulls out in front of you.  That's why the laws generally
require them.

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Jim Redelfs - 21 Sep 2005 13:44 GMT
> Please don't be penny wise and pound foolish

I agree.

While I'm not the RICHEST person in the world, I have always purchased "the
best" or "the SECOND best", hopefully on sale.  In <52 years, I have never
been burned doing this.  However, I HAVE wound-up on the short end of the deal
a few times when buying with LOW cost was a high priority.

My late, maternal grandfather, the esteemed Wayne Edwin Smith of Iowa and
Nebraska demonstrated to me a philosophy that I eventually found to be flawed:  
He was penny wise and penny foolish concurrently.

When helping his only child - his daughter and single mom to five of us
(divorce was VERY uncommon in 1954) - Grandpa would, for example, purchase
Sears' SECOND-best replacement storm door, on sale, of course.  He then SAVED
even more money by installing it himself.  It was a GREAT door that NEVER
operated quite right.  I feel the expenditure of whatever additional $ would
have been required to have the door PROFESSIONALLY installed would have been
WORTH IT as we would have had years of use of a door that opened and closed
smoothly.

> - you apparently think you NEED to drag a car along with you, so
> you'll NEED braking the first time some idjit pulls out in front of you.
> That's why the laws generally require them.

More good advice.  (No wonder you are derided by some.)

I get the BIGGEST kick out of a newbie with an agenda inquiring about trailer
brakes on the popup camper behind his minivan.  They invariably justify their
opinion or choice with [I don't plan to drive over any mountains and I always
drive safely when towing].

It's when you're in the smaller town with ONE traffic signal - the one at the
intersection of Main and Wannabe - when the localyokel pulls-out in front of
you and you find yourself STANDING on the motorhome's brake pedal.  This is
all because your new motorhome has a TOW RATING of xx and the toad (towed car)
behind doesn't exceed that - and you thought you could get away without
working brakes on the "trailer".  (Penny wise, pound foolish)

Get a GOOD braking system for your towed car, no matter its weight.  The price
pales when compared to the overall cost of the motorhoming recreation in which
you have chosen to invest.

It will still be a few years before I get a motorhome (if even then), but a
tow dolly is looking better all the time.  A tow dollies is a little,
two-wheeled trailer where the front or rear wheels of the towed car are loaded
onto the trailer for towing with the other wheels of the car on the road.

In this case, the car doesn't need an auxiliary brake system for use during
towing behind the motorhome, the dolly/trailer hauling the car has them.  As I
understand it, these are typical trailer brakes operated and adjusted
basically the SAME as common travel trailer brakes.

Never forget the potential for ENVIRONMENTAL damage from towing WITHOUT
trailer brakes.  During a wreck, all those FLUIDS are absorbed by the Earth.  
Those include antifreeze, petroleum oil, gasoline, and battery acid to name
just a few.  Avoiding this possibility by installing toad brakes is a laudible
thing and worth ANY cost.

Don't worry about the injured, permanently maimed and killed family of 5 that
you t-boned in the intersection as they surely have insurance.   <smirk>

           :)
JR
Signature

2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT
2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD
Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000

frank907 - 22 Sep 2005 02:11 GMT
Hi Will,
Hope to have all this done before my many yearly trips to Quartzite but I
will still do that. I have taken other advice from you before on things. We
do not NEED the car but now want to be able to go further away from places
we park the RV and get the benefit of 26 mpg. 60,000 miles of trips have
convinced us of this for the next 60,000 miles. I want to use this to get me
to drive my RV 60 mph or less to enjoy seeing the scenery.

Frank

> I see where "frank907" <frank907@sbcglobal.net> contributed:
> >Your answer is the same as the RV parts salesman. I would like to know if
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Will Sill
> The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Terry Parsons - 22 Sep 2005 03:23 GMT
Frank:

I wouldn't and don't tow a car without a supplemental braking system.  I
have the SMI unit.  I researched all of the available systems and determined
that this was the best one to buy.  Other people are going to have their
opinions.  I suggest you do your own research and decide which one is right
for you.

On two different occasions in the 5 years I have had a motorhome, had I not
had the braking system, I would have rear-ended another vehicle.  And both
times were in town and doing less than 35-40 mph.  Like someone mentioned,
you never know when someone is going to pull out in front of you or try to
stop at a traffic signal when they are 3 feet from the intersection when the
light changes to yellow.

Spend the money and consider it a wise purchase.  I don't think you will be
sorry.

Terry Parsons

> Your answer is the same as the RV parts salesman. I would like to know if
> others do use a braking system when towing their car. We go to Quartsite
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> http://www.bobhatch.com
>> http://www.tdsrvresort.com
Leanne - 20 Sep 2005 04:47 GMT
> Just purchased a 2004 Saturn Vue for towing and need some info. When
> starting to get tow parts needed I was told that I must add a $1200.00
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there is no mention of any additional equipment needed when towing. Thanks
> for any comments.

The unit is more for breakaway stopping as well as braking
assist. Check here for info and then let your conscience be your
guide.

http://www.brakebuddy.com/towing_laws.html#United_States_Towing_Laws

Leanne
tat-2 - 20 Sep 2005 05:23 GMT
This worried me for two reasons. One as you mentioned for getting a ticket.
The other is because while towing a canoe on a 4X8 trailer (about 200#) I
had it disconnect not once but 4X from start to finish on a trip of less
then 200 miles.

I have a tow setup for my car and seriously reconsidered ever using it with
my RV. But, after evaluating what happened and the hardware involved with
the disconnect. I rebuilt the trailer with quality locking hardware and
decided I would tow my Toyota echo (2200#) with the better hardware on the
RV.

Ed

I don't have an independent braking system.

> Just purchased a 2004 Saturn Vue for towing and need some info. When
> starting to get tow parts needed I was told that I must add a $1200.00
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there is no mention of any additional equipment needed when towing. Thanks
> for any comments.
Bob V - 20 Sep 2005 06:05 GMT
: Just purchased a 2004 Saturn Vue for towing and need some info. When
: starting to get tow parts needed I was told that I must add a $1200.00
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
: there is no mention of any additional equipment needed when towing. Thanks
: for any comments.

Here's some information from Blue Ox.

For safety purposes, federal law requires RV activated taillights and safety
cables. Also, most states and Canadian provinces have laws on the books
concerning braking for trailers. Brakes are required on trailers with GVWR’s
as low as 1,000 pounds in some states. Enforcement of these laws has not
been followed most places in the United States. Interpretation of the law’s
application to cars in tow has probably been a big reason why these laws
have not been actively enforced. British Columbia province in Canada has
been actively enforcing this law, stopping people, writing tickets and
making them drive the tow car separately if they do not have the proper
equipment. The main thing to remember with auxiliary braking systems is that
they are just what they state - auxiliary brakes. They are not meant to stop
your motorhome any faster. They are designed to assist in slowing down the
towed vehicle and reduce the stopping distance that was changed due to the
addition of the towed car.
lotsatime - 20 Sep 2005 12:10 GMT
> Just purchased a 2004 Saturn Vue for towing and need some info. When
> starting to get tow parts needed I was told that I must add a $1200.00
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there is no mention of any additional equipment needed when towing. Thanks
> for any comments.

 Finished my first trip towing a car at the end of March. Dragged a '99
Malibu behind a 1989 33' Winnebago for 11,000 km. When I decided to do
this, I set up with  Demco brackets and towbar and a Brake Buddy.
After playing around a bit with the sensitivity of the BB, I found it to
be great. Only activated the brakes under hard stops and made a
noticeable difference in stopping distance. I also found it handy in
coming down out of mountains. One quick stab of the brakes reset my
descending speed quite nicely.
I did a lot of reading in different newsgroups and found many different
types of brake assistants. AND just as many opinions. If the others work
as well or better than the BB then the use of an assistant is well worth
it, laws or no laws.
mike
Bob V - 20 Sep 2005 21:04 GMT
: > Just purchased a 2004 Saturn Vue for towing and need some info. When
: > starting to get tow parts needed I was told that I must add a $1200.00
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
: it, laws or no laws.
: mike

After your own safety, I think you're close to hitting on the best reason of
all to use a BB type system, and that is one of liability in case of an
accident.  Even though it may be true that most states are not actively
enforcing their laws, I'd bet you would be heavily fined if you didn't have
a working system in place.
CruzMastr - 21 Sep 2005 13:08 GMT
WOW a whole $1200 for a braking system added to the cost of your coach, new
Vue, insurance, taxes, camping equipment and everything else you're spending
on this hobby! Such an injustice. I assure you there are many people who tow
without supplemental braking and have never had a crash as a resut. Likewise
there are many people who believe that manufacturer's tow capacities are to
"protect" the manufacturer and so pull over weight vehicles/trailers. These
are people who confuse luck with good with good decisions. In response to
your comment to another response, I seriously doubt your Fleetwood manual
says you can tow anything without supplemental braking. If in fact it does
it is in direct conflict with the chassis manufacturer. Virtually every
chassis manufacturer's stated towing capacity is based on their particular
design, hardware and loaded vehicle calculations and assumes adequate
braking on the towed vehicle. I have a 1995 Cruise Master 35ft on a Chev P30
chassis (3500# nominal TC) and tow a 2000 Jeep (3380# scale weight). I use
the US Gear Unified Tow Brake which has a two-wire cable hookup and
break-away cable as the only visible elements. This cable can be combined
with the lights into a six-wire cable to make it even less obvious to the
uninformed observer. If you're looking for confirmation of your opinion move
on, but if you're really intested in actual user experience please read on.

I was southbound on US 71 (four lane restricted access like an Interstate)
south of KCMO in bumper-to-bumper afternoon rush hour traffic. I was
uncharacteristically driving nearly 70 mph to avoid impeding traffic. As we
crested a rise north of Peculiar, Mo the entire highway was stopped and I
stood on the brakes as did everyone else. I couldn't move into the left lane
because of traffic and the shoulder was already full of people trying to
avoid crashing into the car ahead. I managed to stop just 20 ft short of the
car in front of me. Brake manufacturer's tests show good supplemental
braking can shorten the stopping distance 132 ft on a coach/toad combination
virtually the same as mine. I can't begin to imagine the catastrophe that
could have happened without the toad brake. I can however imagine a jury's
response to "20,000 lb motorhome with inadequate braking crushes small car
with mom and six kids on their way to...." Even if I didn't care about
other's on the road, I'd care about the financial and possibly criminal
consequences.

CruzMastr

> Just purchased a 2004 Saturn Vue for towing and need some info. When
> starting to get tow parts needed I was told that I must add a $1200.00
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> there is no mention of any additional equipment needed when towing. Thanks
> for any comments.
frank907@sbcglobal.net - 22 Sep 2005 00:56 GMT
Thanks for the good advice and data. My days of 70 mhp driving are over and
I stay at or below 60 and a little less if I will be towing, especially in
traffic conditions. We have about 60,000 miles driving time so far in 5
years and wish to use our personal car to be able to go further away from a
parked RV. The $1200 was just for the braking system alone, $2300 more for
the whole package! The Fleetwood has a placard stating the GCWR (RV & towed
car) is 17,550 and the GVWR is 14,060. It also states that the RV braking
system will support this GCWR but there is a disclaimer to check with your
states "Maximum allowable unbraked tow vehicle weight". In Calif it is 1500#
but Fleetwood says I can safely do 3500#.

I will do what is neccessary and am learning alot from this group and from
people in my area also. Just trying to get the balance to swing towards the
right, best direction. Thanks again.

Frank
> WOW a whole $1200 for a braking system added to the cost of your coach, new
> Vue, insurance, taxes, camping equipment and everything else you're spending
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> CruzMastr
Jon Griffin - 22 Sep 2005 14:25 GMT
>Thanks for the good advice and data. My days of 70 mhp driving are over and
>I stay at or below 60 and a little less if I will be towing, especially in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>states "Maximum allowable unbraked tow vehicle weight". In Calif it is 1500#
>but Fleetwood says I can safely do 3500#.

I wonder if Fleetwood is going to help you pay off the liability
if/when you have an accident.  I also wonder what your insurance
company might say if you're driving in violation of state law.  

I towed for many miles without the system but now have and use a Brake
Buddy and I can see the difference.

Jon

====================================================
                   Jon Griffin
         SKP 75680             FMCA F257439
      Pahrump, NV                  Sundre, AB
             apply ROT13 to my address
                Vnz@eniatvqvbgf.arg
====================================================
frank907 - 23 Sep 2005 04:19 GMT
Good point. I will check with my insurance company as another thing to do.
I don't think Fleetwood has safety in mind because it is not profitable.
Some time ago they refused to help me determine why I blew out 5 tires in
the same place on my RV. They sell you the RV and then you are on your own
(unless you are still under warrentee).
Frank

> >Thanks for the good advice and data. My days of 70 mhp driving are over and
> >I stay at or below 60 and a little less if I will be towing, especially in
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>                  Vnz@eniatvqvbgf.arg
> ====================================================
 
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