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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / October 2005

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Honda EX1000

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gbnews - 28 Sep 2005 21:27 GMT
Hi everyone,

My Honda EX1000 will start fine, but no power is coming from the output?
Anyone have any ideas what might be wrong?

TIA,

Signature

gbnews (gbnews@XNOSPAMMAMXbtinternet.com)

Healeyman - 28 Sep 2005 23:32 GMT
Look for a tripped power output circuit breaker or GFI interrupter.

A circuit breaker will probably look like a wide handle of a household light
switch.
Usually  on or near the outlet sockets.  Flip it all the way over and back.

A GFI reset button is usually positioned between the sockets of a duplex
outlet.

If that's not it, look for a screw-in or cartridge type fuse holder.

Tim

> Hi everyone,
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> --
> gbnews (gbnews@XNOSPAMMAMXbtinternet.com)
Opus- - 02 Oct 2005 04:08 GMT
>Hi everyone,
>
>My Honda EX1000 will start fine, but no power is coming from the output?
>Anyone have any ideas what might be wrong?

Have you tried to "flash" it? I have had to "flash" a few generators
over the years but not so much in recent years. One way I have done it
is to momentarily [and very carefully] apply 12 volts to the AC outlet
while the unit is running. The better way is to momentarily apply the
12 volts to the brushes, if you can easily access them.

It's been my observation that it's usually the cheaper generators
[Coleman] that sometimes need to be flashed. It can also be required
after repairs.

Signature

Opus62@gmail.com
(Jim, single dad to Lesleigh [Autistic] 04/20/94)

"What, Me Worry?" A. E. Newman

Please note: All unsolicited e-mail sent to me may, at
my discretion, be posted in this newsgroup verbatim.

John Andrews - 03 Oct 2005 03:26 GMT
Would flashing my 4k Onan do any good.  It will start and run
while the starter button is pushed, but not run when the button
is released.  Onan service says there is no output to keep it
running and wants $750 to look any further because it has to
come out to do that.  The generator has been running fine, then
this.

>>Hi everyone,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> [Coleman] that sometimes need to be flashed. It can also be required
> after repairs.
Alan Robinson - 03 Oct 2005 06:02 GMT
> Would flashing my 4k Onan do any good.  It will start and run while the
> starter button is pushed, but not run when the button is released.  Onan
> service says there is no output to keep it running and wants $750 to look
> any further because it has to come out to do that.  The generator has been
> running fine, then this.

John,
   Flashing your 4k Onan probably won't do any good. It should -already- be
automatically be getting a field flash while cranking - so unless that isn't
happening (very unlikely), your problem lies elsewhere. If you'll let me
know what model and spec your genset is, I'll be glad to walk you through
troubleshooting to find out why you have no output. In almost all cases, it
should be something that can be taken care of without having to pull the
genset - although it may still cost you $250 or so if it's a failed voltage
regulator.

Alan
JerryD(upstateNY) - 03 Oct 2005 08:07 GMT
Alan,
It sounds to me like the problem is with the generator engine.
He said it will not staying running when he releases the start button.
Sounds to me like the shut-off switch is grounded out.

Signature

JerryD(upstateNY)

John,
   Flashing your 4k Onan probably won't do any good. It should -already- be
automatically be getting a field flash while cranking - so unless that isn't
happening (very unlikely), your problem lies elsewhere. If you'll let me
know what model and spec your genset is, I'll be glad to walk you through
troubleshooting to find out why you have no output. In almost all cases, it
should be something that can be taken care of without having to pull the
genset - although it may still cost you $250 or so if it's a failed voltage
regulator.

Alan

Alan Robinson - 04 Oct 2005 04:49 GMT
> Alan,
> It sounds to me like the problem is with the generator engine.
> He said it will not staying running when he releases the start button.
> Sounds to me like the shut-off switch is grounded out.

Jerry,
   The problem is with the controls or the generator. In general, when an
Onan rv genset is starting, it ignores the local or remote stop signal as
well as the low oil pressure/low oil signal. To switch to run mode (which
will allow it to continue running with the start switch released), it
must -not- have a stop signal from the local or remote switch, it must -not-
have a low oil/low oil pressure signal, and it -must- be generating. (With
the exception of later Marquis with electronic governor - they use a signal
from the governor module instead of a voltage from the generator).
   The majority of times when I see this, it's not switching to run mode
because it's not generating. But until I know -which- 4kw genset he has,
it's kinda hard to tell him what to check and where to check it.....
for -any- of the possibilities.

Alan
Hunter - 03 Oct 2005 13:22 GMT
"John Andrews" <andrewsjp@chartertn.net> wrote:

> Would flashing my 4k Onan do any good.  >

Beats me, but probably best to do it at night so the neighbors can't
see.

Hunter <running and ducking>

--

http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body,
but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!"
Jim Redelfs - 03 Oct 2005 13:38 GMT
>> Would flashing my 4k Onan do any good.  

> Beats me, but probably best to do it at night
> so the neighbors can't see.
>
> Hunter <running and ducking>

ARGH!!!   [ROFL]

Dagnabbit, Hunter!  Would you PLEASE give a "spew" warning for us morning
readers (coffee drinkers)?  Sheesh!

Hehehehehe!
                   :)
JR
tat-2 - 04 Oct 2005 04:44 GMT
Why would a voltage regulator cost $250 to repair? Is it potted in a
disposable board/box?
I think I would cut out the VR and hard wire it into a repairable unit i.e.
a 3-stage charger like the trace c-12. At least you would get 12A of charge
and then into a converter of merit.

It sounds like a direct short to me. But, my experience is not with Gensets
only pinball machines and basic electronic circuits.

Ed

>> Would flashing my 4k Onan do any good.  It will start and run while the
>> starter button is pushed, but not run when the button is released.  Onan
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Alan
Alan Robinson - 04 Oct 2005 05:57 GMT
> Why would a voltage regulator cost $250 to repair? Is it potted in a
> disposable board/box?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Ed

Ed,
   The voltage regulator module is potted, so not repairable. As to your
other suggestion, the voltage regulator module maintains the genset output
at a nominal 120v ac. It does this by turning ac voltage from a separate
winding into a variable dc voltage that is fed to the field winding of the
genset - it adjusts this dc voltage as needed to maintain the 120v ac
output. For example, most Onan 4kw gensets need about 20v dc to the field
windings to produce 120v ac output with no load. At 4kw load, it'll take
about 70v dc to the field windings to maintain 120v ac output. The module
has to be able to adjust the voltage it feeds to the field pretty quickly,
too - you don't want the ac voltage going to 80v when the air conditioner
tries to start, or to 160v when the air conditioner compressor stops.

Alan
tat-2 - 04 Oct 2005 17:39 GMT
>> Why would a voltage regulator cost $250 to repair? Is it potted in a
>> disposable board/box?
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Alan

Alan,
Thank you for the explanation.

Ed
John Andrews - 11 Oct 2005 01:32 GMT
Alan, I looked up the model and serial number of my Onan.  It is
Model 4KYFA26100E and SN H963571996.  My RV is a 1997 Itasca
Sundancer 400 Model 31WQ.  Any help with the $750 pull the
generator to do more testing would be helpfull.

John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee

>>Would flashing my 4k Onan do any good.  It will start and run while the
>>starter button is pushed, but not run when the button is released.  Onan
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Alan
Alan Robinson - 11 Oct 2005 06:09 GMT
> Alan, I looked up the model and serial number of my Onan.  It is Model
> 4KYFA26100E and SN H963571996.  My RV is a 1997 Itasca Sundancer 400 Model
> 31WQ.  Any help with the $750 pull the generator to do more testing would
> be helpfull.
>
> John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee

John,
   The first thing to do is -verify- that it isn't putting out AC. The
output wiring leaves the genset from the left side of the genset pan, about
2" back from the front. Should be flexible conduit from there to a junction
box somewhere in the vicinity. Pull the cover off the junction box, should
be flexible (stranded) wires from the genset wire-nutted to stiff (solid)
romex wiring going on into the coach - black, white, and green wires.
Disconnect the black and white wires, set your voltmeter to read ac volts,
and hook one lead from your meter to the black stranded lead and the other
to the white stranded lead. Make sure the circuit breaker on the genset
control panel is 'on', then crank and start the genset. If you read low or
no voltage, that's the reason the genset won't stay running.

   Assuming you had no AC output, tape up the ends of the stranded wires so
they don't short, but leave them disconnected for right now. There's a
vertical partition just to the left of the control panel, running from top
to bottom, front to back of the genset. The area to the left of the
partition is where air is pulled into the genset. There is a metal shelf
just below the lip of the opening that runs back about 7" - it has the
starter solenoid and the voltage regulator module mounted on top of it, and
the control circuit board mounted under it. The voltage regulator module is
a metal box about 4" square and 1" high with a black cylinder mounted
horizontally in the middle of the top, and 10 wires coming out of the top.
These wires run to a 12 pin plug (P4) that plugs into a 12 pin jack (J4)
located in the partition, below the air cleaner. (There's also a 15 pin
plug/jack -P1/J1- either just above or just below the 12 pin that carries
control circuitry - can't remember which is on top right now).

   Figure out which pin is pin 7 (the wires will have identification
printed on them), set your meter to read dc volts, and slide the tip of your
positive (red) test lead into the back of the plug alongside the wire so
that it touches the pin. Ground the negative (black) test lead, then crank
and start the genset. You should see approximately 11v dc at this point
while cranking (this is the field flash). Stop the genset, squeeze the latch
ears on the 12 pin plug and disconnect it. Set your meter to read resistance
(ohms), and measure the resistance from pin 9 to pin 10 of the jack - this
is the circuit that leads to the brushes, slip rings, and the field winding.
Should measure approximately 25 ohms.

If you had 11v dc at pin 7 while cranking, and measured 25-30 ohms from pin
9 to pin 10,
get some wire and 2 9v transistor batteries. With the voltage regulator
unplugged: set your meter to ac volts, and hook it back up to the ac output
wiring. Hook the two batteries up in series to provide 18v, with a wire from
the negative terminal to pin 9 of the jack, and a wire from the positive
terminal ready to touch to pin 10. Start the genset, touch the positive to
pin 10, and look at the meter - should show 45-55v or so. Stop the genset,
hook your meter up to pins 11 and 12 of the jack. Start the genset, touch
the positive to pin 10, should show voltage approx 10-15% higher than the
output voltage was.

If all checks out, then you need a new voltage regulator.
If you haven't got field flash on pin 7, the control board or the wiring
from it to J4 is bad.
If your resistance from pin 9 to pin 10 is too high, you probably have
tarnished slip rings - and this -would- require removal of the genset.
Replacing voltage regulator or control board shouldn't.

   I'm somewhat curious as to that 750 figure. I've never worked on a
Microlite/Microquiet in a class A or C that took more than 2 hours to
remove - most much less. Is the labor rate in Knoxville -that- high?
   The dealer locator shows 6 authorized dealers within 50 miles of
Knoxville (including the distributor Cummins Cumberland).

Let me know what you find out, and we'll go from there.

Alan
Jon Griffin - 03 Oct 2005 15:59 GMT
>Would flashing my 4k Onan do any good.  It will start and run
>while the starter button is pushed, but not run when the button
>is released.  Onan service says there is no output to keep it
>running and wants $750 to look any further because it has to
>come out to do that.  The generator has been running fine, then
>this.

It's such a simple thing that floks forget about it, but have you
checked the oil level?

Jon

====================================================
                   Jon Griffin
         SKP 75680             FMCA F257439
      Pahrump, NV                  Sundre, AB
             apply ROT13 to my address
                Vnz@eniatvqvbgf.arg
====================================================
John Andrews - 05 Oct 2005 04:33 GMT
The oil is OK.  The fuel filter is new.  The spark plug is new.
 The air filter is new.  This model does not use an oil filter,
it has splash lube.

John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee
(I'll get the model and SN when it gets light...)

>>Would flashing my 4k Onan do any good.  It will start and run
>>while the starter button is pushed, but not run when the button
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>                  Vnz@eniatvqvbgf.arg
> ====================================================
 
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