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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / November 2005Trailer use in WY in Feb
Hi all, I'm planning a research field season/station. We will be studying birds in near Lander WY from mid Feb to the end of April each year. The lab plans to purchase a new travel trailer for use each season. The floor plan my professor picked out has 4 bunks in the back and a queen bed room in the front with a dinette/couch slide in the middle. She actually plans to get it with out the front bed and used that as on office with a single bed. The two models we are looking at are an Artic Fox 32D ($34,000) or an TB32-BHS Trail-Bay ($25,000). We are trying to decide if the Artic fox is worth the price difference - that is salery for a lab assistant for half a year. Average low for is 14F in Feb and 23F in March. Record lows -28 & -26F respectively. Average high 38 & 48F respectively. There will be wind at least part of the time. Any comments or recommendations. Yes we DO plan to use water in winter. Any advice for RV plumbing in winter? Thanks Diane > The two models we are looking at are an Artic Fox 32D ($34,000) or an > TB32-BHS Trail-Bay ($25,000). We are trying to decide if the Artic fox [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Any comments or recommendations. Yes we DO plan to use water in > winter. Any advice for RV plumbing in winter? With the extreme cold that you will probably encounter, I would get the Arctic Fox in order to have better insulation. I would also plan on placing skirting around the bottom of the trailer to keep the wind out. You may want to consider having a mobile home size propane tank delivered to the site so you can avoid having to get the small tanks refilled constantly. If the temperature ever heads towards one of these record lows, you might have to place a heater under the trailer. Heat tape will be needed on any exposed water lines. The holding tanks need to be heated. You are going to be pushing the limits if the temperature goes below zero for very many days and stays there. Good luck. > Hi all, > I'm planning a research field season/station. We will be studying [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Thanks > Diane Have you tried using google to find others who have done similar stuff? Experience is the best and most expensive teacher. Lou . I see where diane@baywing.net contributed: >Hi all, > I'm planning a research field season/station. We will be studying [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Any comments or recommendations. Yes we DO plan to use water in winter. >Any advice for RV plumbing in winter? Does your professor have a CLUE about living in an rv in the middle of the winter near Lander? I think not. IMO this is not merely a half-baked plan, but a dangerous one if it involves taking college students out into this bird-watching folly. NOBODY makes an rv capable of withstanding long periods of zero degree weather without extraordinary measures - and LOTS of propane. Will Sill "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." William James > Does your professor have a CLUE about living in an rv in the middle of > the winter near Lander? I think not. I think I agree. :) > half-baked plan, but a dangerous one if it involves taking > college students out into this bird-watching folly. Aw, there ya go again with the editorializing. Shame on you. Nevermind that I AGREE with you. Hehehehe! :) > NOBODY makes an rv capable of withstanding long periods of zero > degree weather without extraordinary measures Agreed. Only a FEW of those measures have been revealed (in any detail) here. There is NOTHING wrong with bird watching. Let s/he who has NO <ahem> UNIQUE recreational pastime throw the first stone. However, risking ones life to do it is certainly questionable wisdom. They should personally contact a contractor or two in the IMMEDIATE area for their proposals to make such a vehicle SUSTAINABLE and safe in such a harsh environment. > - and LOTS of propane. What? They're NOT going to do it with solar and wind? I'm SHOCKED!! <snotty grin> Seriously, lots and LOTS of propane. ...and bales of straw, and window insulator kits, and heat tape. I'm sure there's more... Did we mention propane? <wink> > "A great many people think they are thinking when > they are merely rearranging their prejudices." > William James I like this one. :) JR >Does your professor have a CLUE about living in an rv in the middle of >the winter near Lander? I think not. IMO this is not merely a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Will Sill Does anyone remember the Donner Party? unk > Does anyone remember the Donner Party? Yeah. It gives new and different meaning to the phrase, "Grandpa sure was TOUGH!" Pass the A1. :) JR >> Does anyone remember the Donner Party? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > :) > JR Two cannibals are eating a comedian. One says to the other, "You taste something funny?" > Hi all, > I'm planning a research field season/station. We will be studying [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Thanks > Diane Do not under estimate the weather out there or its temps because it can drop 50 degrees in 30 minutes in a storm (I lived out in that area for a spell) get the best insulated trailer you can find, with the biggest furnace you can get and with twin 60 lb propane bottles. You want enclosed and heated holding tanks too. Febuary can be one of the coldest months in Wyoming sometimes.  Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com >> Hi all, >> I'm planning a research field season/station. We will be studying [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >enclosed and heated holding tanks too. Febuary can be one of the coldest >months in Wyoming sometimes. Bottom line... RENT A HOUSE. unk > Hi all, > I'm planning a research field season/station. We will be studying [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Thanks > Diane Since this is cross posted to another group with less detail, I have to say that like a lot of half baked ways Professors come up with to waste research money this one is not only foolish but dangerous. i think your preps should include pre-purchase of grave sites and head stones. I was stationed in antarctic for a while, and would not dream of what you are thinking of doing. And yes is it your intention to study frozen dogs? I know of a college grad student who studied torpid ground squirrels in Alaska, with the sole intent on learning how they warmed up their reproductive equipment to impregnate the females when Spring came along. I never did get the application of that one to humans. I smell TROLL. No one is serious about a TT at 20 below?? Hi again The mean low for Feb is +14F. and +23 in March. Yes it could be much colder, but it could be warmer - its has been a mild winter this year so far. Most afternoons is above freezing. I did not realize there was as many folks on multiple lists. Also it turns out I will be out of web access for a bit. If I still have questions I'll post again when I get back. Perhaps I was not supposed to post on more than one list with such similar questions - one for a used RV and one for a new travel trailer for use on the same project - yes there will be more than one trailer as there will be 8 people total living there. > Hi again > The mean low for Feb is +14F. and +23 in March. Yes it could be [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > travel trailer for use on the same project - yes there will be more > than one trailer as there will be 8 people total living there. OK I was wrong! I admit it. There's a tree over yonder and a rope in the shed. I think you are nuts to do it but I hope you have a good time. > Hi again > The mean low for Feb is +14F. and +23 in March. Yes it could be [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > travel trailer for use on the same project - yes there will be more > than one trailer as there will be 8 people total living there. You obviuosly have not spent much time out there in the winter because while it can be somewhat mild one day, it can be brutely cold the next day and for several days at a time. Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com I see where diane@baywing.net contributed: > The mean low for Feb is +14F. and +23 in March. Yes it could be >much colder, but it could be warmer - its has been a mild winter this [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >travel trailer for use on the same project - yes there will be more >than one trailer as there will be 8 people total living there. OK, I get it. You are determined to try this stupid experiment, no matter how much good advice you've got. Your professsor is a loon for sanctioning it, and if you actually go ahead with it you are not only risking your own lives, but the lives of the rescue workers who will try to extricate you when you run out of fuel in a blizzard. Grow up. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >I see where diane@baywing.net contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Will Sill >The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival techniques (tricks of the trade, lessons learned) from serious cold weather campers, and all he's getting is mommy's doomsday scenario. If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, put a sock in it. >Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around >for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival >techniques (tricks of the trade, lessons learned) from serious cold >weather campers, and all he's getting is mommy's doomsday scenario. If >you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, put a sock in it. They have gotten well reasoned and accurate advice. The fact that you haven't a clue means nothing. I suspect L&C were substantially more prepared to face ultra cold weather than today's soft people. That and the fact the expedition went through dozens of cords of naturally occurring timber to provide heat. I doubt many trailers are equipped with firepits to accommodate logs. I doubt the school kids can find, cut and store in the same manner. Foolishness on top of foolishness. jmho, unk >>Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around >>for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival >>techniques (tricks of the trade, lessons learned) from serious cold >>weather campers, and all he's getting is mommy's doomsday scenario. If >>you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, put a sock in it. The fact that the OP even wrote in and asked about it reflects her total lack of knowledge of the actual situation. Asking for SURVIVAL techniques for the inexperienced to use sounds just a little too advanced for their level of experience. They could lose fingers, toes, or their lives. If this all so educated perfessor has so much advice, why isn't he taking them and making arrangements? I would say it is because he knows how it will be and wants no part of it. And can you imagine the ruling by committee it will require with only one person who has READ survival techniques trying to teach the others and monitor their activities. Lewis and Clark lost only one man on the trip, and the think that was due to appendicitis. The others had hardships, and I don't think they all came back with all their fingers and toes, but they did remarkable in an age where all they had was cotton and wool and their wits. I would not consider going into Wyoming in February unless it were for a funeral or to collect a huge inheritance. (I have relatives in Thermopolis.) Camping out in a RV in February would be further down on my list. There will be no plumbing because everything will be frozen popsicle hard. The propane will even be functioning at a low level because of the temps. If they are extremely lucky it will only be gawd awful cold, and they might find the lull between storms. If you disagree about people being negative, cope. You're an adult. I damn sure would be negative if some inexperienced person asked me about going into a place where I know they could die. Why don't you volunteer to be survival instructor and recreational advisor? Steve Today, Geoff felf the need to send me a personal e mail, so I will share it: > Steve == If they have the proper clothing they won't freeze to death. If they have a generator and a spare and use heating cables the propane and tanks will be ok (Also lots of gas) You really don't know how far they are willing to go. Remember that they are young people not old fogies like us. Maybe they can only take a dry shower once a week? They won't be at the Ritz, but WTF. They asked for positive advice! Where is your sense of adventure? I've only been rv'ing for 2 years and I was out in -10c weather and I survived without winter clothing. OMG what a bunch of losers. Geoff. Geoff, the person's request for advice was equal to asking, "Hey, I'm going alligator hunting. Any advice?" Unlike you, I have been RVing and camping for fifty years. I have been in on some bluebird days, and some that were just tests of survival. I know enough to say what I know and speak from experience. You have been blocked from my e mail, so in the future, just post it here. Why don't you offer to go along and help this group? Steve > Today, Geoff felf the need to send me a personal e mail, so I will share > it: > > You have been blocked from my e mail, so in the future, just post it here. Why did you block him? I didn't see anything objectionable in his email. I don't agree with his opinion but everybody's entitled to an opinion aren't they? Cheers, Joe >> Today, Geoff felf the need to send me a personal e mail, so I will share >> it: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Cheers, Joe I consider e mail to be a way to contact people and hear from people I like and want to hear from. I'm funny that way. I don't like spammers, and would gladly be the one to give the first one a public flogging with a wet cane rod, like they do in Muslim cultures. Or a fresh bull penis, like they do in African cultures. The discussion is in a public forum for all to see and comment on. What is to be gained from contacting a person directly just to spew? I thought that is what Usenet is for. Anyone is welcome to post their opinion publicly. It is just when someone insists on sending it to me personally, or to get within arm's reach to give it to me that I get a little feisty. Anyone else have any opinions on how they regard their own e mail privacy? Steve : >> Today, Geoff felf the need to send me a personal e mail, so I will share : >> it: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] : : Steve Suggestion, don't put your real email address in your newsgroup properties. > : >> Today, Geoff felf the need to send me a personal e mail, so I will > share [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >--- I would have replied to the group but many of you are so anal you can never agree with anyone else. You really are a bunch of old fogies, except for a sensible few. You are so negative, you would rather give someone heck instead of helping them. I'm 70 but hope I never get as old you Guys Geoff. > I would have replied to the group but many of you are so anal you can > never agree with anyone else. You really are a bunch of old fogies, except > for a sensible few. You are so negative, you would rather give someone > heck instead of helping them. > I'm 70 but hope I never get as old you Guys > Geoff. Geoff, you really need to talk to someone. For you to suggest that some inexperienced people go full sail into a life threatening situation is just a little over the edge. When people ask, "What do you think of this"?, there are only two answers. Only a liberal would think that they are both going to be positive. Steve I see where "GeoffP" <Geoff@nospam.com> contributed: >I would have replied to the group but many of you are so anal you can never >agree with anyone else. You really are a bunch of old fogies, except for a >sensible few. You are so negative, you would rather give someone heck >instead of helping them. >I'm 70 but hope I never get as old you Guys >Geoff. Being 70 doesn't keep you from acting like a moron. What POSSIBLE good can come from chewing out Steve for his _opinions_ about the advisability of this dangerous adventure? Answer: NONE. If you want to keep encouraging this college girl to risk her life, have at it. But you're painfully ignorant if you don't comprehend the risks! And you're acting stupid if you think insulting those with contrary opinions is worth doing. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > : >> Today, Geoff felf the need to send me a personal e mail, so I will > share [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Suggestion, don't put your real email address in your newsgroup properties. A lot do that but if you want to offer advise, you should b eable to use a real email address too unless you are trying to hide and cast doubt on your advise. You can always ignore unwanted email Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com > You can always ignore unwanted email Oh, YES!! :) Woo Hoo! Someone else GETS IT! Since the days of Benjamin Franklin, we have brought physical spam (junk mail) into our homes from the mailbox. We then pay someone to haul it (among other things) off to a landfill. That's OK. But a "trip" to the [delete] key is just TOO MUCH!! ARGH!! Spam is NOT the scourage of the Earth. (It is, however, the scourge of the internet. All spammers should die.) :) JR >> You can always ignore unwanted email > >Oh, YES!! :) Woo Hoo! > >Someone else GETS IT! Jim, You don't get it. This is where people come to discuss ...... this is where the discussions should stay. If someone is too thin skinned to post here then they shouldn't invade someone's private mailbox. Steve was well within his rights to protest private email. Hunter -- http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!" > You don't get it. Yes, I do. You must've misunderstood me. I believe that, by the time of your reply, the discussion (at least for me and the person to whom I was replying) had morphed to "munged" email addresses. I have always marveled that folks protest more and more loudly about electronic spam than the PAPER spam we've all received five days-a-week for our entire lives. > This is where people come to discuss ...... this is > where the discussions should stay. I agree. > If someone is too thin skinned to post here then they > shouldn't invade someone's private mailbox. I agree. However, if the their email address is readily apparent, that essentially precludes it from being a "private" mailbox. For that matter, I'm not sure there IS such a thing on the internet. Spambots will, can and do get your email address from virtually anywhere. > Steve was well within his rights to protest private email. Again, I agree. :) JR >> If someone is too thin skinned to post here then they >> shouldn't invade someone's private mailbox. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > get > your email address from virtually anywhere. Use a throwaway email account; either a free service or a secondary account. Some servers *require* a valid posting addy in newsgroups. Make a shortcut to empty the spam once a week as you do cleanup and antivirus. I prefer an addy that LOOKS bogus, or is long and tedious to type. Great for receiving activation codes without the free junk mail, newsletters and upgrade offers . >I agree. However, if the their email address is readily apparent, that >essentially precludes it from being a "private" mailbox. > Bull. For that matter, I'm >not sure there IS such a thing on the internet. Spambots will, can and do get >your email address from virtually anywhere.> So, you're saying that people who write off the newsgroup are spammers? >> Steve was well within his rights to protest private email. > >Again, I agree.> <sigh> Then why did you enter the fray? Hunter -- http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!" >> I agree. However, if the their email address is readily apparent, >> that essentially precludes it from being a "private" mailbox. > Bull. C'mon, Hunter. Don't "flower it up". Tell me how you REALLY feel! <g> >> For that matter, I'm not sure there IS such a thing >> on the internet. Spambots will, can and do get your >> email address from virtually anywhere.> > So, you're saying that people who write off > the newsgroup are spammers? I'm saying what I said, and you quoted. I don't understand what you are asking. >> Again, I agree. > <sigh> Then why did you enter the fray? To add my two cents about Trailer use in WY in Feb and, MUCH later, someone's indignation at having been violated by unwanted email. (There's a first.) JR > Anyone else have any opinions on how they regard their own e mail privacy? I'm with you, mostly. However, I would be UNconcerned enough with what he had written to me to make the effort to block him. If email privacy were a significant concern, I would not post my real, UNadulterated address as I do above. I've done it this way for YEARS in usenet and elsewhere. Yes, doing so attracts spam. However, what little makes it through my ISP's filter to my inbox is easily dispatched, unread. I wish to make it easier - not harder - to be contacted via email. From my own experience, I can't help but think there are others that might GIVE UP rather than spend the time to UN-mung an email address in order to send a message. I've done just that. :) JR I see where "SteveB" <deserttraveler@cox.net> contributed: >Anyone else have any opinions on how they regard their own e mail privacy? Morons who send me nastygrams ket blocked. You want to opine on a public subject, do it publicly. But my NG edress is slightly munged, reducing the number of times I have to tell some bozo to get outa my mailbox. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > >> Today, Geoff felf the need to send me a personal e mail, so I will share > >> it: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Anyone is welcome to post their opinion publicly. You don't really believe that. You only want people to post when they agree with you. You have shown that over and over again. > It is just when someone > insists on sending it to me personally, or to get within arm's reach to give [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Steve If I didn't want anyone to e-mail me I wouldn't advertise the address in all my posts. snip You still around, bonehead? > snip > > You still around, bonehead? Yes I am! Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me! >The fact that the OP even wrote in and asked about it reflects her total >lack of knowledge of the actual situation. Asking for SURVIVAL techniques [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Lewis and Clark lost only one man on the trip, and the think that was due to >appendicitis. As a matter of fact, Sgt. Floyd was the only casualty, and he is interred less than a mile from where I was born and raised. It is surmized he had burst appendix but I don't think that is confirmed. >The others had hardships, and I don't think they all came >back with all their fingers and toes, but they did remarkable in an age [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >temps. If they are extremely lucky it will only be gawd awful cold, and >they might find the lull between storms. I can just see these 19 and 20 YO nanny kids discovering that "Buffy" plugged the black tank with her ultra-super maxi-pad and now they have 2 inches of sh.t in the bathroom. >If you disagree about people being negative, cope. You're an adult. I damn >sure would be negative if some inexperienced person asked me about going [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Steve > I can just see these 19 and 20 YO nanny kids discovering that "Buffy" > plugged the black tank with her ultra-super maxi-pad and now they have > 2 inches of sh.t in the bathroom. Oh, MY *GOD*!! ARGH!!! [spewing coffee] ...and what makes that so incredibly FUNNY is that it would likely happen! :) JR > They have gotten well reasoned and accurate advice. Well, some but not a lot. I mean, I mentioned "heat tape". That begs the question: Does the would-be cold-weather camper KNOW what that is, what it's for and HOW to use it? Of course, such detail really doesn't belong on an RV newsgroup as it's not very topical and is easily accessible via Google. But I agree that excellent advice has been given: Don't do it, otherwise, it's going to be extremely difficult and probably dangerous. As for Lewis & Clark: There were dissenters and nay-sayers that wanted to turn back when things became life-threatening. :) JR >>Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around >>for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >They have gotten well reasoned and accurate advice. The fact that you >haven't a clue means nothing. They were given some good advice eventually. I don't recall them asking anyone if they thought it was a good idea or asking for reasons they should call it off. To wit: "You are determined to try this stupid experiment, no >matter how much good advice you've got. Your professsor is a loon for >sanctioning it, and if you actually go ahead with it you are not only >risking your own lives, but the lives of the rescue workers who will >try to extricate you when you run out of fuel in a blizzard." I have a problem with negative and insulting people. Sorry if I offended anyone. I see where lanman <xlanmanx@aol.com> whined: >Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around >for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival >techniques (tricks of the trade, lessons learned) from serious cold >weather campers, and all he's getting is mommy's doomsday scenario. If >you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, put a sock in it. The "man" (Diane, a college student) asked for advice and got it, I feel sure the content of your post will be of great help. Not. I'm delighted you and Steve Wolf contributed ideas to help her cope with a potentially fatal adventure. Lewis & Clark were prepared - these people are NOT prepared and have little to no clue about the magnitude of their risk. This is not a ski weekend from which Daddy can rescue them. I don't want their deaths on my conscience. Will Sill, who has camped near Lander Wyo and knows blizzards. >I see where lanman <xlanmanx@aol.com> whined: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >The "man" (Diane, a college student) asked for advice and got it, I >feel sure the content of your post will be of great help. Not. And your admonition was helpful? These are big boys and girls who I'm sure appreciate the challenges they are facing. and they are looking for helpful advice - not a parental lecture. > And your admonition was helpful? These are big boys and girls who I'm > sure appreciate the challenges they are facing. and they are looking > for helpful advice - not a parental lecture. Uh, pardon me. These "big boys and girls" are asking survival tips from strangers. If they were true outdoorsmen/survivalists/RVers, we would have never heard from them. The fact that they made a pleading request for common information shows they are protected twenty-something young adults that probably should not be let out at night with out adult supervision. Let alone in a make it or die camping situation in Wyoming in February. Last year or so, there was a PBS special on where they took several families and put them in, IIRC, Montana. They had to live just like the people did in the 1880s with that technology and tools. They had to put up food and firewood for winter. They had to live for the spring, summer, and early fall months just like they did back when. But at least the weather was decent. At the end, they had a panel of "experts" made up of Montana people who know Montana winters, and who were residents with experience of their own and their ancestors to refer to. They knew what helped people survive and what people died from. ALL of the contestants were judged NOT to have been able to survive the coming winter. ALL of the contestants had a puffed up attitude about themselves and their winter preparations. So, even though these are a bunch of "big boys and girls", that don't mean squat. Far more intelligent and older people have gone straight into the jaws of a beartrap with a false sense of security brought on by overeducation, bad preparation, bad advice, pride, ego, bad leadership, or whatever. Remember the Arctic explorer that argued that horses were the best and only way to make it to the North Pole? He SWORE by it. The rest is history. The final chapter will be written next summer by the survivors. Film at eleven. Steve I see where "SteveB" <desertttraveler@cox.net> contributed: >So, even though these are a bunch of "big boys and girls", that don't mean >squat. Far more intelligent and older people have gone straight into the >jaws of a beartrap with a false sense of security brought on by >overeducation, bad preparation, bad advice, pride, ego, bad leadership, or >whatever. . . . . . >The final chapter will be written next summer by the survivors. Or by the rescuers bringing out body bags. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >I see where "SteveB" <desertttraveler@cox.net> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Will Sill > The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill Kind of brings to mind a recent Alaskan bear story, and two well qualified overeducated campers, doesn't it? Steve I see where "SteveB" <desertttraveler@cox.net> contributed: >>>The final chapter will be written next summer by the survivors. Will: >> Or by the rescuers bringing out body bags. SB: >Kind of brings to mind a recent Alaskan bear story, and two well qualified >overeducated campers, doesn't it? Yep. Far be it from me to belittle education - but there is a heap of difference between book learnin' and Life University TSoHK (The School of Hard Knocks). But even the seasoned and well-prepared are sometimes felled - and the most convincing evidence that this OP and her professor were clueless was their plan to take a vacation RV into the teeth of a WY mountain winter as a base camp. They MAY realize Lander itself is a mile high, and in a valley surrounded by knobs over two miles high - but they appear to have no concept of winters there. Perhaps I was a bit harsh, but IMO neither she nor her professor had a clue. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill You're thinking of Tim Treadwell and his friend Amie Huguenard, the subjects of the movie "Grizzly Man"? We probably all do at least one stupid thing in our lives; the difference is that we live to tell about it :-). >>I see where "SteveB" <desertttraveler@cox.net> contributed: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Steve >> And your admonition was helpful? These are big boys and girls who I'm >> sure appreciate the challenges they are facing. and they are looking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >strangers. If they were true outdoorsmen/survivalists/RVers, we would have >never heard from them. <snip flatulence> Not really. When doing a due diligence, information is sought from any and all sources. I have no doubt this team has investigated cold weather survival techniques which is available from many places. This particular team will be using an RV whereas most cold weather explorers made due with tents, so they came to the "horses mouth" - the so-called experts in an RV group. What did they find? Well, too often it was doomsdayers with scorn and ridicule instead of helpful advice. It's intuitively obvious that one can perish in extremely cold weather, but that doesn't stop people with a sense of adventure from attempting expeditions to the South Pole or scaling Mt Everest. Do you really think this team is unaware of the dangers? There is no question they are aware of the risks, but the risks are calculated and with planning can be mitigated. Can they guarantee nothing bad will happen? No, of course not. Nevertheless, we're fortunate that there are people like this team who have a sense of adventure and are willing to take risks, because if the world were filled with people like you, this great country would only be a shadow of what it is today. >>> And your admonition was helpful? These are big boys and girls who I'm >>> sure appreciate the challenges they are facing. and they are looking [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > risks, because if the world were filled with people like you, this > great country would only be a shadow of what it is today. Hey, I never said they shouldn't go for it. This country was built on as many failures as successes. And Monday morning quarterbacking should never be confused with negativity. That is why we have autopsies. Steve >>>> And your admonition was helpful? These are big boys and girls who I'm >>>> sure appreciate the challenges they are facing. and they are looking [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >And Monday morning quarterbacking should never be confused with negativity. >That is why we have autopsies. More negativity noted. It's just your nature, eh? If you're married, my sympathies to your wife. >>>>> And your admonition was helpful? These are big boys and girls who I'm >>>>> sure appreciate the challenges they are facing. and they are looking [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > More negativity noted. It's just your nature, eh? If you're married, > my sympathies to your wife. Negativity? I'm a realist. Reality is nature's way of keeping things straight. Steve >>I see where diane@baywing.net contributed: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- Lewis and Clark had experianced outdoorsmen with then and thye were use to living without a roof or running water or force air heat. These person is not. Myself I have camped at zero and below but I am not a stranger to it either. Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com > Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around > for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- You while giving encouragement are unable to read in the first place. It was not a man asking for help. >> Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around >> for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >You while giving encouragement are unable to read in the first place. It >was not a man asking for help. Good catch, Ed. Glad to see you're on top of these things. It's a thankless job, but someone has to do it. >>> Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around >>> for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Good catch, Ed. Glad to see you're on top of these things. It's a > thankless job, but someone has to do it. WHOOSH! (the sound of an idea going over the empty head of a liberal while they concentrate in a point of minutiae) Steve >>>>Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around >>>>for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Steve I assume that you are the empty headed liberal. I at least have antarctic experience to extract help from what is your background? > >>>>Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around > >>>>for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I assume that you are the empty headed liberal. I at least have > antarctic experience to extract help from what is your background? His background is being the prick in this newsgroup. Thats about it. >>>>>Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around >>>>>for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I assume that you are the empty headed liberal. I at least have antarctic > experience to extract help from what is your background? I'm sorry, Ed. I lost you. The point was that a pointless point was being made about the use of an incorrect pronoun instead of the more serious survival issue brought up in the conversation. Do try to keep up. Steve >>>>>>Good thing Lewis and Clark didn't have negative folks like you around >>>>>>for discouragement. The man was asking for advice on survival [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Steve >OMG You guys will argue about anything or nothing. Typical! get a life! > Hi again > The mean low for Feb is +14F. and +23 in March. Yes it could be [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > travel trailer for use on the same project - yes there will be more > than one trailer as there will be 8 people total living there. Uhh, forgive me for pointing out the obvious, but it hasn't been a mild winter so far; this is autumn in the northern hemisphere. Winter doesn't start for two more months. Like Mr. Sill said on another forum...your professor is a loon for suggesting such a trek and you are even sillier for thinking it's a noble idea. For a fraction of the cost of a new travel trailer, one could easily build a well insulated 16' x 20' shelter and stay snug as a bug. Forget the running water...In other words, you won't survive in a travel trailer but might have an enjoyable (but quite difficult) winter in a trappers cabin. > For a fraction of the cost of a new travel trailer, one could easily build a > well insulated 16' x 20' shelter and stay snug as a bug. Forget the running > water... A good plan, to be sure. What do you want to bet that the local Natural Resources District and/or property owner would stand in the way of building "permanent" structure on the location where they wish to reside? There's either a lawyer or bureaucrat on every street corner. :) JR > I did not realize there > was as many folks on multiple lists. And you're a graduate student? -Raf SignatureMisifus- Rafael Seibert mailto:raf_seibert@cox.net http://www.ralphandsue.com See below. >Hi all, > I'm planning a research field season/station. We will be studying >birds in near Lander WY from mid Feb to the end of April each year. The >lab plans to purchase a new travel trailer for use each season. > You might not need a new one every year if you're reasonably careful about using it while you're there. >The floor plan my professor picked out has 4 bunks in the back and a >queen bed room in the front with a dinette/couch slide in the middle. >She actually plans to get it with out the front bed and used that as on >office with a single bed. > Even a large RV is a very small house. Four people in one for ten weeks had better get along *really* well together. We routinely kick the kids outside into a tent to keep our sanity in our 34' Winnie. >The two models we are looking at are an Artic Fox 32D ($34,000) or an >TB32-BHS Trail-Bay ($25,000). We are trying to decide if the Artic fox >is worth the price difference - that is salery for a lab assistant for >half a year. > If one has better insulation than the other, go for it. See below. Did anyone mention propane yet? >Average low for is 14F in Feb and 23F in March. Record lows -28 & -26F >respectively. Average high 38 & 48F respectively. There will be wind at >least part of the time. > Bring plenty of propane to the party. You'll need lots (and lots) of propane. Consider getting a gas company to bring a large bulk tank (one of the 6' high and 10' long kind) and plumbing it into both trailers. We used our MH in NH one January for five days with lows about -10 at night and nearly emptied its large frame rail-mounted tank despite low thermostat settings (we were in a nearby house most of the time). Other than the frightening rate of gas consumption we had no problems and nothing froze (yes we had water in it but the tanks are heated). >Any comments or recommendations. Yes we DO plan to use water in winter. >Any advice for RV plumbing in winter? > Four people living in an RV will need a new tank of water every couple of days, perhaps even daily if they plan to shower every day. Most RVs hold about 40 gallons, about the same amount that the average residential hot water heater holds. This will be a real problem. Water is heavy and cannot be stored outside in an unheated container in the winter. You can order larger water tanks, which will cut the resupply frequency but you will still need a lot of water, often. Melting snow is not a reasonable option. A nearby stream, a water filter and pump, and a separate drinking water supply might work. Do NOT turn off the hot water heater in the winter, by the way. >Thanks >Diane > > HTH. JRE > Did anyone mention propane yet? ARGH!! [ROFLMAO] :) You should give a (coffee) "spew" warning prior to posting something like that! > Bring plenty of propane to the party. You'll need lots (and lots) of > propane. Consider getting a gas company to bring a large bulk tank (one > of the 6' high and 10' long kind) and plumbing it into both trailers. This is NO JOKE, my dear. :\ > Four people living in an RV will need a new tank > of water every couple of days, perhaps even daily I'd go for daily given it's unlikely many (any?) of the occupants have done much (any?) dry camping. Ex. Leaving the water running while brushing teeth. > will still need a lot of water, often. Even more than propane, and that's *A LOT*. Then I wonder what they'll do with the gray water below freezing? Heat tape all the way to the end of the dump hose? That's a LOT of water to get rid of. This, of course, is assuming that there are NO hookups at all. An electric hookup would improve things somewhat, despite the low temps. > A nearby stream, a water filter and pump, > and a separate drinking water supply might work. Bring an axe to get through the ice cover. Establish an important rule: NO one goes into town without bringing back at least 5-gallons of fresh water. I wonder if this bird-watching RV location is within "reach" of electricity. > Do NOT turn off the hot water heater in the winter, by the way. Good advise. I'd read-up on cold weather camping, too. It should be required prep reading for all would be participants. Make sure there's a cell phone signal. If there isn't, brush-up on emergency first aid and keep your escape route (i.e. VERY LONG, "private" road) passable. :) JR > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >You should give a (coffee) "spew" warning prior to posting something like that! > Sorry. I'll try to remember that next time. >>Bring plenty of propane to the party. You'll need lots (and lots) of >>propane. Consider getting a gas company to bring a large bulk tank (one [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I meant it 100% seriously. Running out of fuel would be a Very Bad Thing. With a bulk tank and a well-though-out delivery schedule, they should have enough fuel to be able to have heat throughout a presumably unforecast blizzard and until the roads are clear. With two trailers, nobody should freeze if one furnace fails--they'll be crowded but warm. The usual RV-mounted tanks should be full as backup and everyone should know how to change over from the bulk tank. Nonetheless, monitoring the weather forecast with a NOAA weather radio (or, failing that, a satellite TV and the Weather Channel) is a requirement. If the Big One is coming, run away! Another aspect of running out of fuel: All the tanks and lines will freeze unless drained first. The draining procedure should be able to be done without power or heat, in the dark. This will also be important if the site must be left unattended for any period of time. >>Four people living in an RV will need a new tank >>of water every couple of days, perhaps even daily [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >much (any?) dry camping. Ex. Leaving the water running while brushing teeth. > Daily at first, I'm sure. But you quickly get tired of handling water more often than necessary, especially when it's cold. Reasonable water discipline should get 2 days' use from a 40 gallon tank for 4 people including (Navy-style) showers (wet, soap, rinse, done). >>will still need a lot of water, often. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >somewhat, despite the low temps. > I wonder what they'll do with the black water, too! Not to mention the infamous black pyramid (these will be parked for the duration, right?). A porta-potty (gasp! brrrrr!) might be best for solid waste. One should do fine for 8 people. Nobody will stay in it for long. ;-) I'm not particularly familiar with trailers. Our MH has heated tanks, and so long as I don't leave the compartment open and the hose outside there's no danger of freezing. For winter camping, some similar setup seems a requirement. I've no clue whether trailers come built that way. >>A nearby stream, a water filter and pump, >>and a separate drinking water supply might work. >> > >Bring an axe to get through the ice cover. > Oh, yes. But a chain saw might be better. Some streams could have a couple of feet of ice over them. (Don't forget gasoline, 2-cycle oil, spare chains....) >Establish an important rule: NO one goes into town without bringing back at >least 5-gallons of fresh water. > Better yet...20 gallons of water--that's only four 5-gallon cans--and another big tank of propane. Did anyone mention propane yet? (Oops. Forgot to warn Jim. Sorry, Jim.) >I wonder if this bird-watching RV location is within "reach" of electricity. > > That would be awfully convenient. But they need to plan for dry camping in the event of a power failure. >>Do NOT turn off the hot water heater in the winter, by the way. >> > >Good advise. I'd read-up on cold weather camping, too. It should be required >prep reading for all would be participants. > Excellent idea. Plan for the worst case. Inside an unheated trailer in the winter, zero degree bags plus extra blankets would probably be good. Also, be prepared to feed yourself should there be no power or propane. Don't ignore this; you need a lot of energy when it's cold, and you still need fluids. This means a portable camp stove that works in the cold. Forget the Coleman fuel ones when it's ten below. You need a gas-fired camp stove that uses isobutane, propane, etc., in expensive but essential small portable cylinders. Compared to the propane bill you'll face (OMG...!), these are cheap and essential survival items. For more than you probably want to know about all this stuff, I highly recommend The Complete Walker, by Colin Fletcher and Chip Rawlins. You can ignore the backpacking aspects, but the cold-weather camping advice comes from two experts in solo winter camping. To pull this off safely will take a lot of planning. Winter camping is serious, even in a TT or MH. Think about fire, and how far apart the trailers are. (Come to think of it, think about *two* bulk propane tanks spaced well apart, just in case.) Think about what people eat and drink and what to do with their output. Think about trash disposal, laundry, water, fuel (we did mention propane, right?), access, escape, fire safety, and dozens of other things. >Make sure there's a cell phone signal. If there isn't, brush-up son emergency >first aid and keep your escape route (i.e. VERY LONG, "private" road) passable. > If any of the party are amateur radio operators, bring an HF rig if you're out of VHF and cell phone range. A small portable one takes nearly no space and runs on 12VDC. As any ham knows, you'll have to figure out in advance what you'll do about an antenna. (Wire antennas work fine if you have a couple of convenient trees.) > :) >JR > Nobody has mentioned condensation yet. Get dual-pane windows (preferably argon-filled ones) if possible. If you have single-pane windows, bring lots of towels to wipe them off with. We have single-pane windows in the MH. The condensation from four people makes them dripping wet by morning when it's cold. JRE > Nobody has mentioned condensation yet. Get dual-pane windows > (preferably argon-filled ones) if possible. If you have single-pane > windows, bring lots of towels to wipe them off with. We have > single-pane windows in the MH. The condensation from four people makes > them dripping wet by morning when it's cold. Dual-pane windows are a MUST HAVE for my next rig, and I'm NOT going to try camping in Wyoming in February. :) JR >I'd go for daily given it's unlikely many (any?) of the occupants have done >much (any?) dry camping. Ex. Leaving the water running while brushing teeth. Actually I routinely camp with only water that I've brought with me - granted in warmer weather and usually for week-ends. My professor, the other post-doc and most of the field assistants have all done field work before. Field biologist often work in S.A., Africa, etc in places where it is much harder to get support and much further from cities, etc. Field biologist work all over the world in much rougher conditions much further from support. Phone or e-mail contact in the field is consider a bonus. >The floor plan my professor picked out has 4 bunks in the back and a >queen bed room in the front with a dinette/couch slide in the middle. >She actually plans to get it with out the front bed and used that as on >office with a single bed. This is one of those 6P's situations. Typical professor that has never been out in the real world or hasn't done her homeweork. If this plan comes to fruitation, I sure hope there is a good support/rescue group for them. Leanne >> The floor plan my professor picked out has 4 bunks in the back >> and a queen bedroom in the front with a dinette/couch slide in >> the middle. She actually plans to get it with out the front and >> used that as on office with a single bed. > This is one of those 6P's situations. What does 6P mean? > If this plan comes to fruitation, I sure hope > there is a good support/rescue group for them. Hey, it's grant money. Use it or loose it. Nevermind that using it might involve injury and litigation. <sigh> JR > > This is one of those 6P's situations. > > What does 6P mean? Poor prior planning = P**s poor performance Something that I learned in the military Leanne USMC ret >>>The floor plan my professor picked out has 4 bunks in the back >>>and a queen bedroom in the front with a dinette/couch slide in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > <sigh> > JR Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. In this case there is no planning that will work to prevent disaster. JH >This is one of those 6P's situations. Typical professor that >has never been out in the real world or hasn't done her >homeweork. If this plan comes to fruitation, I sure hope there >is a good support/rescue group for them I suspect the students will turn tail and run back to civilization... if the car will start. Hunter -- http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!" >> The floor plan my professor picked out has 4 bunks in the back > and a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > homeweork. If this plan comes to fruitation, I sure hope there > is a good support/rescue group for them. They need to find out what the Antarctic research teams do. Living in a travel trailer for an extended period in this kind of weather is just asking for trouble. The professor needs to get a grip on reality and understand that this kind of research can't be done safely without spending quite a bit of money. Just because someone might want to do something does not mean that it is a good idea. This sounds like an extremely bad idea. >>>The floor plan my professor picked out has 4 bunks in the back >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > mean that it is a good idea. This sounds like an extremely > bad idea. Think of the large amount of water from burning the Propane. I would not want to open the door four weeks into this fool hardy venture. Also where on earth would even four persons store the required winter clothing? I would like to know what college the professor teaches at so I can guide my grand children away from it. very lame idea from the get go, regardless of what the pundits who support Lewis and Clark have to say. We are exploring the use of a well that currently exist - the well is why the electric power pole is there. If the local (to Lander WY) expert does not think we can make the well work, then we we can rent a large heated water tank - but that is close to cost prohibitive. We are really hoping the well will work most of the season. The alternative is to have water barrels in the back of the pick up that we fill with water at the city of Lander to re-fill the RV tanks - this will be done weather permitting. There is also a water truck that services cisterns in the area. We will also have many (I'm working on the number) 5 and 1 gallon bottles of water. A set of bottles will be inside to thaw and as one is emptied a new bottled block of ice will come into thaw. This will provide water for cooking, drinking and sponge baths. We have permission to take showers at the BLM office in town. If we can't have running water in the trailers, we go to town once or twice a week for showers as weather allows. > We are exploring the use of a well that currently exist - the well is > why the electric power pole is there. If you have electric power available, your venture will be MUCH less difficult. > We will also have many (I'm working on the number) 5 and 1 gallon > bottles of water. A set of bottles will be inside to thaw and as one is > emptied a new bottled block of ice will come into thaw. This is probably not workable. Water expands when it freezes. If the water jugs/bottles are allowed to freeze hard, they will rupture. :) JR >> We are exploring the use of a well that currently exist - the well is >> why the electric power pole is there. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > :) > JR Shhhhhhhhh, Jim. These are, after all, "big boys and girls", and the perfessor is an educated man. Just stand back and watch. It's going to have to be pretty warm in that TT to thaw water at a rate fast enough for daily use. We'll see. Steve >>We are exploring the use of a well that currently exist - the well is >>why the electric power pole is there. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > :) > JR Did you ever hear of using plastic and leaving room for expansion? Duh! I see where Ed <Ed@use.net> contributed: Steve: >> This is probably not workable. Water expands when it freezes. If the water >> jugs/bottles are allowed to freeze hard, they will rupture. Ed: >Did you ever hear of using plastic and leaving room for expansion? Duh! Sorry, but that is another one that looks OK on paper - and works SOMETIMES. Leaving an air space in a plastic jug will often allow enough expansion to keep the jug from splitting - but sometimes will NOT. Ask me how I know. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > I see where Ed <Ed@use.net> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Will Sill > The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill We've used plastic milk jugs for years as ice for coolers. Never had one split, not that it can't happen <g>. We also still use frozen plastic drinking water bottles as containers for water while kayaking. Never had one of those split either, not that they couldn't of course. Guess we were just lucky. Hugh > Did you ever hear of using plastic and leaving room for expansion? Duh! Have you ever frozen plastic jugs, left an airspace at the top, left the lid off, and still had them crack? I have. Duh! DOH! Steve |
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