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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / December 2005Backup Battery Power
I no sooner posted what I thought I wanted in Battery Power then a storm came through and wiped out shore power. Now here I set working off line learning a lot about this rig. Number one I remembered to put the refrig and water heater on gas before cranking up a gen set. The Belcon Battery Pack for the PC desk top held for 30 minutes and as I was wanting to know just how long it would sustain operation I let it go, thought I would get a warning, but no, she just shut ever thing down. Another lesson learned was the smoke alarm went off while I was worming up my TV dinner in the gas oven, without the exhaust fan on. Turn it on and the alarm would shut off turn the fan off and the smoke alarm would sound off again. This is not good for boondocking, the fan draws to many amph from the battery bank. I have a gp27 deep cycle in my storm shelter, must be a few years old, but still measures like a new battery after being used for about 30 minutes with one light bulb burning and the charger off. Wonder how it would work if I teamed it up with a new one just like it and stuck them in the 5er. I'll have use for the gp24 in the storm shelter. Dont know if the old battery will team up with a new one or not.-  Signature-- BILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog If you want some serious backup power, go to a Sams club and get some 6 volt golf cart batteries they have there (you will have to use two in series to get 12v) They have about twice the capacity as current deep cycle 12v at stores and cost about the same for 2 of them vs one big deepcycle > I no sooner posted what I thought I wanted in Battery Power then a storm > came through and wiped out shore power. Now here I set working off line [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > and stuck them in the 5er. I'll have use for the gp24 in the storm > shelter. Dont know if the old battery will team up with a new one or not.- Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com > If you want some serious backup power, go to a Sams club and get some 6 > volt golf cart batteries they have there (you will have to use two in > series to get 12v) They have about twice the capacity as current deep > cycle 12v at stores and cost about the same for 2 of them vs one big > deepcycle I gave that consideration but they will not fit in the current battery well within the 5er compartment. I was thinking about them for the battery bank in the Ram used as an auxiliary bank, independently recharged and jumpered to the RV system as needed. BILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog >> If you want some serious backup power, go to a Sams club and get some >> 6 volt golf cart batteries they have there (you will have to use two [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Dual EU2000i Hondas > Just Me and Dog Size is a consideration for sure but they would stand up well to the demands of backup power because two in series could produce about 300 watts of power for about 6 hrs and much higher loads with ease for a shorter period of time. Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com > Another lesson learned was the smoke alarm went off while I was > worming up my TV dinner in the gas oven, without the exhaust fan on. > Turn it on and the alarm would shut off turn the fan off and the > smoke alarm would sound off again. This is not good for boondocking, > the fan draws to many amph from the battery bank. Our trailer has a warning not to use the gas stove without running the range hood fan or we will all die, so we always run it when the stove is on. Unfortunately, we did not discover the flap on the outside of the fan exhaust vent, which has two little clips holding it closed, until we had been using the trailer for a year! Some exhaust vents have no outside flap, and I am told they have an internal opener/closer instead. Don't know how you tell if one of those is really open or closed. You're supposed to close it same as roof vents and windows when going down the road (something about sucking the water from the sink drain traps and letting nasty smells come up into the trailer) During power outages like in the storm, why not cook on a cheap AC electric hot plate using the generator? Doesn't need the exhaust fan unless you cook for maximum smoke. > I have a gp27 deep cycle in my storm shelter, must be a few years > old, but still measures like a new battery after being used for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > storm shelter. Dont know if the old battery will team up with a new > one or not.- A battery shop could test each one to see if they have the same reserve capacity- time to discharge to 10.5. One battery in a mis-matched pair will not let the other charge up properly on a re-charge so it will sulphate on you. Or something like that. Regards, Barry > During power outages like in the storm, why not cook on a cheap AC > electric > hot plate using the generator? Doesn't need the exhaust fan unless you > cook > for maximum smoke. No electric power, you would use up battery capacity a lot faster running a hot plate through an invertor. The simplest solution would be to open a window for ventilation while cooking with gas. SignatureJon JPinOH > > During power outages like in the storm, why not cook on a cheap AC > > electric [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > hot plate through an invertor. The simplest solution would be to open a > window for ventilation while cooking with gas. I meant generator like I wrote. (ok my Honda says it is an "invertor", but it has its own gasoline engine and makes AC except an additional low amp DC output for charging) He has two EU2000i sets (the i means invertor I think). What for, if not to heat the can of beans on a hot plate during a storm?? Regards, Barry > I no sooner posted what I thought I wanted in Battery Power then a storm > came through and wiped out shore power. Now here I set working off line [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > and stuck them in the 5er. I'll have use for the gp24 in the storm > shelter. Dont know if the old battery will team up with a new one or not.- Well the cable is back up now and I can continue to discuss the battery situation. But the way every thing drags along I'll have to do something to kick this thing in gear. New additional battery well will be in next week. I'll switch out the gp27 with the gp 24 today and see how that old battery stays up with more load on it. Might just have to buy two new gp27 batteries. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog >> I no sooner posted what I thought I wanted in Battery Power then a >> storm came through and wiped out shore power. Now here I set working [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > battery stays up with more load on it. Might just have to buy two new > gp27 batteries. Well now the game plan has changed, again. Seems as though when I opened the gp27 battery box for my storm shelter it contained a gp24. Speculation, it could have departed with my trolling motor and boat. Thats what relatives are for, arent they? And every one has got me thinking about a gel battery bank. I'll have to see where I can find them here in outback Mississippi. Didn't know we had so much storm damage, cable just came back up again. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > And every one has got me thinking about a gel battery bank. I'll have to > see where I can find them here in outback Mississippi. While a few have mentioned "Gel cell" I don't know where one can buy that tech for RV use. Maybe these people are actually referring to what is called AGM today but are more correctly know as "starved electrolyte" They use liquid electrolyte just like flooded cell batteries but only enough electrolyte to cover the plates and glass mat separator between the plates. There is no space in these cells for excess electrolyte. Mickey > While a few have mentioned "Gel cell" I don't know where one can buy > that tech for RV use. Maybe these people are actually referring to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > mat separator between the plates. There is no space in these cells > for excess electrolyte. Guess I am the guilty party on that. I am pretty sure the idea is to use AGMs -NOT gell cell. The idea is the sealed type does not need to be in a vented compartment and can be used safely inside the trailer. Apparently they do vent through a normally-closed special blow hole if they are overcharged that much. So, is it safe to use them inside or not, as long as you don't overcharge them that much to make them blow? Thanks, Barry ... Apparently they do vent through a normally-closed special blow hole if they are > overcharged that much. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks, > Barry That's the way they worked when I was working, as a customer, with Gates Energy Products when this technology was being developed. As long as you follow the guidelines on using a regulated charge source and the proper voltage, venting should not be an issue. Used properly I wouldn't have a problem using them inside. As GB has testified to, he's been using them inside his rig for a number of yrs. Mickey > That's the way they worked when I was working, as a customer, with Gates > Energy Products when this technology was being developed. As long as you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Used properly I wouldn't have a problem using them inside. As GB has > testified to, he's been using them inside his rig for a number of yrs. I have 3 AGMs that are mounted under the seat portion of the bath tub in my Class B. One is in the vented box with the other two simply shoved in there beside it. That compartment is not sealed at all and they have been no trouble for the five years that I have had them. Once in a while I check that the connections are tight and that's it. I don't expect to have to replace them before I replace the vehicle. SignatureJon JPinOH >> Used properly I wouldn't have a problem using them inside. As GB has >> testified to, he's been using them inside his rig for a number of yrs. >I have 3 AGMs that are mounted under the seat portion of the bath tub in my >Class B. One is in the vented box with the other two simply shoved in there >beside it. That compartment is not sealed at all and they have been no >trouble for the five years that I have had them. Once in a while I check >that the connections are tight and that's it. I don't expect to have to >replace them before I replace the vehicle. Not that it matters, but just to clarify -- my AGM is in the original vented box, mounted under the level of the floor (under a cabinet). However, if I had the space for more, there was a time when I would probably have added another one wherever I could fit it in. But all my available storage holes are already occupied with stuff I don't want to travel without. As it turns out, though, I have more than adequate 12v power for my RVing style. I do remember a person who used to post here (forgot his name) who for several years had been using an AGM -- lying on its side -- under the middle seat of a minivan. GB in NC > While a few have mentioned "Gel cell" I don't know where one can buy > that tech for RV use. http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/product_info/ marine/starter___deep_cycle.html :) JR >>While a few have mentioned "Gel cell" I don't know where one can buy >>that tech for RV use. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > :) > JR Your link didn't work for me but by seeing it is an Optima site, as far as I know they are strictly in the Starved Electrolyte, I.E. AGM battery business. Mickey > Your link didn't work for me but by seeing it is an Optima site, as far as > I know they are strictly in the Starved Electrolyte, I.E. AGM battery > business.< Here's their home page. http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/home.html SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) >>Your link didn't work for me but by seeing it is an Optima site, as far as >>I know they are strictly in the Starved Electrolyte, I.E. AGM battery >>business.< > > Here's their home page. > http://www.optimabatteries.com/publish/optima/americas0/en/config/home.html Might be good for some applications, but it appears to be to many bucks for the bang. I follow up all leads, maybe a little delayed but I do. I looked in to this and consider they are affiliated with one of the best battery trade names (Interstate). But the Trogan 6volt appears to be the most amp hour for the dollar. Two CB6V-AGM Trogans can produce 400-460ah for $380. Availability on the local market may also show that the Trogan could be available at most any golf cart sales store. These facilities are more prolific in the RV community than one might imagine. The Trogan is sealed maintenance free, will fit in a gp24 battery well. They are taller than the standard batteries but an extended block will allow the cover to be installed. Theory is fine, but actuality is what dominates, so now I go down to the local Golf cart sales place and see if they have Trogans in the battery form, if you know what I mean. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > But the Trogan 6volt appears to be the most amp hour for the dollar. > Two CB6V-AGM Trogans can produce 400-460ah for $380. Can you confirm those amphrs? That would be great, but I am hoping (because that would be fabulous if correct) you haven't added them up when , eg, one ordinary 6 volt may be 225 amphrs and the two needed to make 12 volts is still only 225 because they are in series. Regards, Barry >>But the Trogan 6volt appears to be the most amp hour for the dollar. >>Two CB6V-AGM Trogans can produce 400-460ah for $380. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Regards, > Barry UT,OH! Yes I did add them together. So you are saying I have two 6 volt batteries that when connected in series adds up to 12 volts, But the amp hours being 200/230 does not add up. WHATA DA MISTAKA DA MAKA! The advantage just cut in half as I see it. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > >>But the Trogan 6volt appears to be the most amp hour for the dollar. > >>Two CB6V-AGM Trogans can produce 400-460ah for $380. > UT,OH! Yes I did add them together. So you are saying I have two 6 > volt batteries that when connected in series adds up to 12 volts, > But the amp hours being 200/230 does not add up. WHATA DA MISTAKA > DA MAKA! The advantage just cut in half as I see it. Still a lot cheaper than those Optima Yellow Tops though. We're getting closer! I guess it is down to each person's application rquirements. The idea is still to get AGMs to use inside where it is warm for better battery capacity, and you can then have the invertor inside too (need the short run invertor-to-battery) for your AC "extras", so no special wiring out to the normal outside battery position. The regular RV power supply and battery system stays as is. The trouble seems to be getting enough amp hrs worth of AGMs at a sensible price. Anybody got this worked out?--I'm sure we are re-inventing the wheel here. Thanks, Barry >Anybody got this worked out?--I'm sure we are re-inventing the wheel here. Man, you're making this far too complicated. Whatever your size/power/quantity/space requirements, if you really don't want to fool with battery maintenance, you'll pretty much have to shell out for AGMs. If you don't mind the maintenance, then get whatever you feel gives you the most bang for the buck -- which will probably be something else. The big advantage of having AGMs -- along with no maintenance -- is being able to put them almost anywhere, with no need for venting. (These advantages may be completely irrelevant to you.) In exchange, you get less power for the money. But since they're warranteed -- pro rata, of course -- for five years in RV use, at least you can pretty much predict your approximate long-term cost. As I said earlier (I think), the cost of my single Group 24 AGM should end up at around $2.85/mo. -- less if it lasts longer than five years. But then, I don't care anyway. Lack of maintenance is the single big selling point for me. That's what I willingly and knowingly paid for. That's worth way more than $2.85/mo. to me just in my time alone, to say nothing of the hassle. If I had the need (and space) for four batteries, it would be worth four times that much, TO ME, not to have to deal with four of them -- and I would gladly pay it. But none of that really matters. What matters is what's important to you. That's why there are different choices -- what suits me may not suit you. There. I've pretty much shot my wad on this topic. You take it from here. GB in NC > There. I've pretty much shot my wad on this topic. You take it from > here. > > GB in NC I know better than that, you will have a come back after this. In a quaint little town that is billed as having more millionaires per capita, there cannot be found a AGM battery any where. Several big golf courses and golf cart sales, but no Trogan AGMs can be had. Even stopped by the RV dealer and found out that they are having problems getting the regular deep cycle RV batteries. It seems as though they have some where around 50 RVs coming in to prep for FEMA and they need the batteries. Their supplier, Interstate batteries has interest invested in Trogan and cannot keep up with supplies. So that leaves me with the internet to order from. GB you are correct in what you say about having the AGM batteries. I will have the first two shipped in by UPS and install them when the new battery well arrives. My primary reason for having more battery source is so the furnace can keep me worm all night. If it gets in the mid 20s and I have no power it will only last until around 4am. Gotta have more bank and less maintenance worries. Another little tidbit I picked up down at our local RV dealers is the drivers reports on towing. They claim that the GM diesels are only getting around 7 or 8 mpg and the Dodges are up around 11. That is what I got the last time, some times averaged out to 12. Also I noticed their RV stock level has dropped extremely low. They said they are even low on used units, they usually have around 10, now they have 2. They normally have around 200 new rigs and they do not have any thing near that. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > Also I noticed their RV stock level has dropped extremely low. > They said they are even low on used units, they usually have around > 10, now they have 2. They normally have around 200 new rigs and they > do not have any thing near that. Another sign is earlier this year we needed a new window which had lost its double-pane seal. Dealer ordered from trailer factory which gets windows from a window factory. Every time a new window arrived at the trailer factory, instead of sending it on to our dealer, they put it in a new trailer they were building. They couldn't get windows fast enough. This went on for over six months before they finally sent us one. --of course we had already bought our trailer, so we were sucking hind tit as far as the factory was concerned. Oh well. Regards, Barry >My primary reason for having more battery source is so the furnace >can keep me worm all night. If it gets in the mid 20s and I have no >power it will only last until around 4am. Gotta have more bank and >less maintenance worries. Bill, If your primary concern is for heat, why not get a catalytic heater or a blue flame heater? Cost about the same as new batteries and will last longer. Won't weigh as much either. Neither require any battery power. Jon ==================================================== Jon Griffin SKP 75680 FMCA F257439 Pahrump, NV Sundre, AB apply ROT13 to my address Vnz@eniatvqvbgf.arg ==================================================== >>My primary reason for having more battery source is so the furnace >>can keep me worm all night. If it gets in the mid 20s and I have no [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Jon I think I have a fear of open flame un-vented gas. I have a two burner catalytic attaches to a 20# LP tank, I use it in the shop only. I have already ordered the two Trogans (6volt) http://ebatteriestogo.com/Trojan_RV_Batteries.htm Also a PST-S600W-12 Inverter. It is a true sine wave 600watt unit that will run my printer as well as power for the computer and scanner. http://powerstream.com/ I already have a 400 watt inverter that will run a little 10" fan or the electric blanket. Depending on what I need in the bed room. I spent many years over in the south Pacific and can get along with fans rather than air con except to the extremes. BILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog >I already have a 400 watt inverter that will run a little 10" fan or > the electric blanket. Depending on what I need in the bed room. >I spent many years over in the south Pacific and can get along with >fans rather than air con except to the extremes. Well I spent many years on the South Pacific (USN 56-77). And I can do fans but prefer Air Cond and/or gas heat. I am looking for a small fan to help move the air around in the RV. Jon ==================================================== Jon Griffin SKP 75680 FMCA F257439 Pahrump, NV Sundre, AB apply ROT13 to my address Vnz@eniatvqvbgf.arg ==================================================== >>I already have a 400 watt inverter that will run a little 10" fan or >> the electric blanket. Depending on what I need in the bed room. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Vnz@eniatvqvbgf.arg > ==================================================== Jon, My rig came equipped with a Fantastic 3 speed, DC vent fan in the bath room. This is not like the ones I have had in the past. The blades are about the same size as the vent, runs relatively quiet. I also have an overhead, 39", 4 blade, 3 speed DC fan in the dinette area. I thought this fan was most unusual for an RV to have. Most DC fans in the past seem to run like hell and move little air or had only one speed, wide open with a lot of noise. I have one of those now and thought it would do for bed room use, but makes to much noise. I'll put it back in the storm shelter where I originally had it. I have the 400watt inverter setting on the fold out shelf in the bed room plugged in to the only DC outlet in the rig. I set the 10" AC fan next to it and does a lot better as for the air movement but still has a little noise from the cooling fan in the inverter. I think the answer to this is to mount both of the inverters in the battery compartment and run separate ac circuits to dedicated AC outlets to service the computers and fan in the bed room. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > AC fan next to it and does a lot better as for the air movement but > still has a little noise from the cooling fan in the inverter. I > think the answer to this is to mount both of the inverters in the > battery compartment and run separate ac circuits to dedicated AC > outlets to service the computers and fan in the bed room. Of course, ordinarily, you aren't supposed to put the inverter (or anything else) in with the batteries because of the danger of a spark and the battery fumes. With AGMs this should not be a problem. However, you are still looking at controlling the inverter by having to go outside everytime (it is always raining and you get to stand in a puddle while playing with electricity) or getting a remote control for it. (leaving the inverter at idle still burns up amp hrs) Plus you need the hard wiring to inside. The reason I was looking to have AGMs inside was to avoid having to get special wiring runs put in from out where the inverter is next door to the batteries (with wires into the battery compartment through a sealed up hole) If you just plug your trailer's shore power line into the invertor and use the AC sockets in the trailer , then you need more mods to separate shore power AC from the inverter AC and to not be charging your batteries at the same time the inverter is drawing from them and otherwise confusing your convertor/charger gizmo. You get a sort of mad scientist's collection of switchboards and stuff. If the installed trailer power is left as is with it's own batteries, it would be so much easier just to clamp the inverter lines to the spare batteries inside, and use the inverter sockets to plug into. You can also see the inverter's read-outs of watts etc. You just run a line from your generator into the trailer whenever you need to, that goes to your handy portable "smart charger" and charge up the spare batteries --being careful not to blow the vents on the sealed batteries. If you happen to run down your spare batteries with the inverter, it doesn't cut into your regular amp hrs that the furnace uses either, since they are on separate battery banks. Hmmm. If you had to run your AC extras all the time, you would need a set up so you could swap the inverter over when one battery bank is being charged. It is a puzzle how to justify going to all the trouble when you can get by without; but when you really need to upgrade your rig to get the job done, then it is easy to justify. Plus it is fun to work out the solution to the puzzle and monkey around playing handyman, instead of being like that frustrated repairman with nothing that needs doing. :) Regards, Barry >Jon, My rig came equipped with a Fantastic 3 speed, DC vent fan in >the bath room. This is not like the ones I have had in the past. The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >battery compartment and run separate ac circuits to dedicated AC >outlets to service the computers and fan in the bed room. Mine has one of those infinitely variable speed Fantastic fans in the kitchen and I replaced the noisy OEM fan in the bath with a 3 speed MaxAire. What I want is a regular room fan to help move the air from the rear toward the front. There's a lot of times when one furnace running (or in the hot times, one Air Cond) would be enough but one end of the coach is hot and the other cold. I have a 600 watt inverter in the basement wired to one outlet in the front of the rig. That's not enough. I have the TV, Satellite receiver, cell phone charger, and 2 lap top chargers all plugged into that one outlet. The wattage is fine but all those wires look like a can of worms. I'm going to install another inverter outlet in the rear. Someone else mentioned having to go out and turn the inverter on or off. They were absolutely correct. It seems to always be raining when I have to do this. I'm not concerned with the safety of flipping a switch in the rain, but I hate getting cold rain down the neck of my shirt. I'm voting for a remote switch! Should be able to leave the inverter switch on and remotely trigger a relay for the incoming 12 vdc. Jon ==================================================== Jon Griffin SKP 75680 FMCA F257439 Pahrump, NV Sundre, AB apply ROT13 to my address Vnz@eniatvqvbgf.arg ==================================================== Jon Griffin Jon I do not know how I am going to control the 600watt inverter that I have on order. I do not understand the reasoning of having to go out and turn the inverter on, are we talking about if it trips off due to overload or just at the beginning of the time we want to start using it. But the small inverter I have can be used for the 10" fan for bedroom air circulation with out any problems. After the big inverter comes in and I have a chance to review the tecdata I'll be able to decide how to remotely control it, if infact it needs to be turned off, idle amp draw will dictate this. The preliminary information indicates stand by current to be 0.7 amps. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > Jon Griffin > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > needs to be turned off, idle amp draw will dictate this. The > preliminary information indicates stand by current to be 0.7 amps. 0.7 sounds right. A book on boondocking says their inverter draws 1 amp per hr in stand-by , "which for a boondocker is a significant load--bordering on the sacrilegious--so we always turn our inverter off when not in use. To make this easier....running in and outside to flip a switch didn't appeal to us. Remote controls are hardwired to an inside switch." I think that means 24 amp hrs a day, when the typical RVer uses say 60 amp hr/day? If you operate your 220 amp hr battery bank down to 50% you get to use 110 ampshr before recharging, (not sure if this is correct because they define usable as 80%??--anyway moving right along..) but likely will only recharge to about 75% so your actual usable operating range is between 75-50% and 25% of 220 is 55 amp hrs. That's at 77F so if it is cold you might get 30% less than that, which is 39 amp hrs? So 24 out of 39 is serious. (If I have this all wrong (never mind approx math numbers) in general, somebody please correct, because I am starting to think I understand how this works--that's usually when you are the most dangerous--so I am worried something basic got left out.) Regards, Barry >I'll be able to decide how to remotely control it, if infact it >needs to be turned off, idle amp draw will dictate this. The >preliminary information indicates stand by current to be 0.7 amps. The idle draw is a considereation for sure, but so is noise. Mine has a small fan that runs all the time the invertor is switched on not just when it's needed. If I'm running something, I can hardly hear it, but if everything is off and I'm trying to go to sleep it's a sound I don't need. Jon ==================================================== Jon Griffin SKP 75680 FMCA F257439 Pahrump, NV Sundre, AB apply ROT13 to my address Vnz@eniatvqvbgf.arg ==================================================== > The idle draw is a considereation for sure, but so is noise. Mine has > a small fan that runs all the time the invertor is switched on not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jon I would think that a steady fan noise would not bother you so long as it remained constant. Like you say if you are running something you hardly hear it. Well I intend on running my small inverter to power the fan in the bed room. The larger inverter, I doubt would be used during sleep time. First glitch is in, the battery well came in at the RV dealers, it was the wrong one. It was the same as a battery box with a vented lid, not one that fits in a square hole in the floor of the compartment like the one that came with the rv. Maybe they will get it correct next time, only way to withstand incompetence is with patients. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog >> The idle draw is a considereation for sure, but so is noise. Mine has >> a small fan that runs all the time the invertor is switched on not [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > one that came with the rv. Maybe they will get it correct next time, > only way to withstand incompetence is with patients. I finally received the 600watt inverter and have connected it to the current DC system. I have temporarily installed it in the front basement area, works real good. But I have another inverter (PP300AC) Whistler, indicates it is a 300watt, but the web information said it is 400watt. Never the less it also has a cooling fan, and it comes on when you turn the unit on. The new one I just received does not come on. The tech support indicated it was thermostat controlled. But I am going to put a load on it and worm it up enough to see if the fan will in fact will run. I have also received the two Trojan 6volt batteries, connected them together and put the New Vector battery charger on them. All that is remaining is the new battery well from Forest River. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog >>> The idle draw is a considereation for sure, but so is noise. Mine has >>> a small fan that runs all the time the invertor is switched on not [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > together and put the New Vector battery charger on them. > All that is remaining is the new battery well from Forest River. Bingo! Could not find any thing in the correct wattage range to put a load on the new inverter. All my heaters and appliances are 1000watts or over. So I rigged up several light bulbs and a heating pad. The heating pad was not all that much of a wattage draw, just 50watts, but wrapped around the inverter along with another 300watts in light bulbs, I was able to get the fan to run. It would be able to be next to the pillow and not bother me, hardly makes any noise at all. The model on this inverter is FI-S600W12 by Fuji. Next step on the AC side is to see how I can run a wire in to the interior near the computer and TV for an outlet. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog snipped some > to be next to the pillow and not bother me, hardly makes any noise > at all. The model on this inverter is FI-S600W12 by Fuji. > Next step on the AC side is to see how I can run a wire in to the > interior near the computer and TV for an outlet. Supposedly, all you need is a clever switching arrangement at the AC distribution panel, then you can use your shore power cable plugged into the inverter (adapter as required) and your inside AC sockets can be used as usual. You have to make sure the other AC things- microwave, etc- don't get switched on. AFAIK the switch prevents the inverter from supplying AC into the converter/charger which is sort of insestuous on the DC side, but I am vague on that. Meanwhile, you are running on DC as usual from your (other) battery bank Regards, Barry I see where "BF Lake" <nomail@nospam.com> attempted to help the often-confused Boyd Brain with: >Supposedly, all you need is a clever switching arrangement at the AC >distribution panel, then you can use your shore power cable plugged into the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >vague on that. Meanwhile, you are running on DC as usual from your (other) >battery bank I haven't followed this thread in detail, so forgive me if I'm missing the point - if any. But the above is either unclear in the extreme or daffy beyond reach - not sure which. Our system includes an inverter/charger (Heart Freedom) that includes a relay. Any time shore power is available, it functions as a 3-stage charger and all 120v receptacles are powered only from shore power. When no shore power is connected, the inverter feeds 120v ac to selected receptacles only - NOT including things like the electric element in the WH, or the receptacle we use for a small space heater. I see occasional references to wacky schemes that seem either goofy or impossible - if you don't understand the basics of electrical power, hire someone who does. Whatever you do, don't take advice from the likes of Boyd. He often knows nothing about what he writes about. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > I see where "BF Lake" <nomail@nospam.com> attempted to help the > often-confused Boyd Brain with: > I haven't followed this thread in detail, so forgive me if I'm missing > the point - if any. But the above is either unclear in the extreme or > daffy beyond reach - not sure which. Maybe it's both? > Our system includes an inverter/charger (Heart Freedom) that includes > a relay. Any time shore power is available, it functions as a 3-stage... snip > I see occasional references to wacky schemes that seem either goofy or > impossible - if you don't understand the basics of electrical power, > hire someone who does. Whatever you do, don't take advice from the > likes of Boyd. Aha, I see this is a typical newsgroup with a few "lifers" who don't get along. :) That's ok. For actual work I would get out the handy collection of RV electrical system books from the library to get the story straight before doing anything or getting it done. > He often knows nothing about what he writes about. Me neither. In hopes somebody in the group who knows more will post the correct answer. Does this group have a FAQ or charter for newbies? Is it compulsory to confess what sort of trailer and truck you have in your sig? Thanks, Barry I see where "BF Lake" <nomail@nospam.com> contributed: > For actual work I would get out the handy collection >of RV electrical system books from the library to get the story straight >before doing anything or getting it done. Good. But book or no book, you should get one thing straight right off: No combination of schemes will allow the output of an inverter to power its own input. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >>I see where "BF Lake" <nomail@nospam.com> attempted to help the >>often-confused Boyd Brain with: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Thanks, > Barry No confessions required for any thing even in the sig! Something that got started some where else, allows people to more understand the discussion in progress better. Had Will put in his sig, that he has a hermit van one would have known what he was talking about in his electrical switch blade system. WILL's unpleasantness goes back a ways, where I told him to tone down his slanderous name calling or I would come up to Wyoming county and kick his a.s. The dump bastard took offense to it. But he is not as bad as he once was, still wants every one to think he knows every thing. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > I see where "BF Lake" <nomail@nospam.com> attempted to help the > often-confused Boyd Brain with: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Will Sill > The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill No one is trying to design an elaborate electrical system. What is posted by Barry might be a possibility, but is not what I had in mind. To connect the shore power to my new inverter, I would have to disable the converter in the system, which would be easy just by turning the circuit breaker off. It just so happens to be the same cb as the entertainment center is on that I want to provide power to, so we are not doing it that way. I revert to rule one KISS. The stand alone inverter circuit that I am installing will have it's own ac outlet. I will plug the TV and VCR in when I am boondocking and want to watch one of the many movies I have, or perhaps be in range of a local TV station. The addition, the two Trojan batteries are to sustain the power source all night pending morning time when I will start the gen sets as needed to recharge and fix breakfast. Nothing elaborate, no relays, bells, whistles or lights, just beefing up a system and adds the capability to have an electric blanket, or whatever else, when needed. In the event that I were able to connect to a Wireless hotspot, the computer is in the same area and would be able to be plugged in to the inverter outlet. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > No one is trying to design an elaborate electrical system. What is > posted by Barry might be a possibility, but is not what I had in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and want to watch one of the many movies I have, or perhaps be in > range of a local TV station. That's much like what I want to do, so I am really interested in this. I don't need a "proper" inverter set-up like Will has. The RV makers sure make it hard. Our trailer came with pre-wiring for a roof solar panel (wires dangling by the battery compartment and which are said to come out under a roof vent cover-the fridge's I think) So whyinhell can't they "pre-wire" for an inverter set-up since that is so common these days? The cigarette lighter is only good for 8 amps for 96 watts, so if you want to use a bigger TV you need to connect the inverter directly to your battery--which is where everything gets extremely awkward. Whine. The addition, the two Trojan batteries > are to sustain the power source all night pending morning time Not being able to parallel that set with the other batteries, being different in size, age, etc, is not a problem I expect, because by using the one bank with the inverter for your AC toys , you get more amp hrs from the other bank to devote to the furnace and lights, etc. Lots of flexibility for charging too. Regards, Barry . . >>No one is trying to design an elaborate electrical system. What is >>posted by Barry might be a possibility, but is not what I had in [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > . No that is not simple enough for me. I am replacing the one 12volt deep cycle battery that came with the RV. The two Trojans will become the RVs battery source. My converter puts out 55amps which is enough to maintain the Trojans, but would take for ever to charge them up after an over night dry camping. That is where the Vector charger will come in, according to information I received here the Vector and converter can work in dual at recharging the batteries. Of course the Vector will be powered by one of the EU2000i gen sets, while I fix me and Dog's breakfast. I don't think my rig has solar panel wiring in it, that could be some thing to think about but doubt they will pay for their selves. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > No that is not simple enough for me. I am replacing the one 12volt > deep cycle battery that came with the RV. The two Trojans will > become the RVs battery source. My converter puts out 55amps which is I have a lot of conflicting info on that. Most seem to say you never see that many amps becasue it is busy with other tasks, and you are lucky to get even 8 amps for charging. I am unclear what the truth is. Natch they don't have a tech rep to ask anymore, having been bought out and re-organized beyond all hope. Of course as soon as you get about 75% charged up, the amps are down to below 5 and it takes forever to get that last 25% top-up on the low amps. > enough to maintain the Trojans, but would take for ever to charge > them up after an over night dry camping. That is where the Vector > charger will come in, according to information I received here the > Vector and converter can work in dual at recharging the batteries. Ours is their 1090A, and we have two Interstate 2200 6s as a 12. The charger will bring them up to what it says is "full" but the hydrometer says they are only 3/4 full. The Vector tech rep on their 800 line says the charger is not capable of fully charging 6 volt batteries as a 12, because that would need over 15 volts at the end and the charger works at 14.5 volts. After that you need too much time to top up to make it practical. (This is also true of 12 volt batteries, so I don't know why he said 6 volt ones in particular) So 75% is the best you can get on a re-charge till you can get shore power and use the trailer's charger to do the top-up, which takes a couple days or so on mine. So you operate between 75% and 50% battery as your cycle while boondocking. Of course with the sealed batteries, you can't check with a hydrometer so it is not so frustrating! "Full" means "full" right? Nope, it means, "Full is 75% . Chief, take that man's name." > I don't think my rig has solar panel wiring in it, that could be > some thing to think about but doubt they will pay for their selves. A lot of them do have that wiring tucked away. I checked out solar and it would not be any use for what we do. It's not fair anyway--because of latitude, Seattle gets half the amp hrs from the same panel as it would do in Arizona. So if you live north of Seattle it is even worse, and they are thousands of bucks. Phooey on that. Regards, Barry >> No that is not simple enough for me. I am replacing the one 12volt >> deep cycle battery that came with the RV. The two Trojans will [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >takes a couple days or so on mine. So you operate between 75% and 50% >battery as your cycle while boondocking. Google is your friend. There has been much excellent discussion of this in the past. I won't attempt to summarize it here, as I don't think I can give it proper justice. Check out the following link for why you may be seeing this sort of performance from your batteries: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.outdoors.rv-travel/browse_thread/thread/b2a7e f1d684fc18b/b5ea2673a7cb2da5 or if that wraps, the same link is here: http://tinyurl.com/db5rt Especially read Neon John's contributions to this link. I think you will find it very informative overall. Hope this helps. ............gary > Google is your friend. There has been much excellent discussion of > this in the past. I won't attempt to summarize it here, as I don't > think I can give it proper justice. > > Check out the following link for why you may be seeing this sort of > performance from your batteries: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.outdoors.rv-travel/browse_thread/thread/b2a7e f1d684fc18b/b5ea2673a7cb2da5 > or if that wraps, the same link is here: http://tinyurl.com/db5rt > > Especially read Neon John's contributions to this link. I think you > will find it very informative overall. Hope this helps. Thank you very much, that is the clearest explanation yet of all this. You just know you are re-inventing the wheel whenever you monkey with the RV. I bet those Oregon Trail people had a newsgroup for discussing the best model of prairie schooner to buy, and how to fix it up after-market. Even worse, I bet they argued endlessly about whether it should be hauled by horses or oxen. (Oxes have more torque you know <G>) Regards, Barry > Thank you very much, that is the clearest explanation yet of all this. > You [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Regards, > Barry That is dumb everybody knows Ram's have more torque >>> No one is trying to design an elaborate electrical system. What is >>> posted by Barry might be a possibility, but is not what I had in [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > I don't think my rig has solar panel wiring in it, that could be > some thing to think about but doubt they will pay for their selves. What Trojans did you get? I have 3 Trojan SCS200's in my class C, that will be on their 5th year next Feb. They have been on 40 trips, with an average of 4 days each trip. -- Frank Howell www.fphowell.com > What Trojans did you get? I have 3 Trojan SCS200's in my class C, that will > be on their 5th year next Feb. They have been on 40 trips, with an average [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Frank Howell > www.fphowell.com I had them ship me two CB6V-AGM Trojan Sealed AGM 6 volt Golf Cart batteries. Their size is GC2 if that makes any reference to your battery sizing code, it don't for me. They are about the same size as a gp24 but is a lot taller, and weighs 70 pounds each. I ran in to a good web page on batteries, explains the AGM battery to where I can more understand what I have. http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#AGM,%20or%20Absorbed%20Glass%20 Mat%20Batteries ;-) SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > >>Supposedly, all you need is a clever switching arrangement at the AC > >>distribution panel, then you can use your shore power cable plugged into the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >>vague on that. Meanwhile, you are running on DC as usual from your (other) > >>battery bank . To connect the shore power to my new inverter, I would have to > disable the converter in the system, which would be easy just by > turning the circuit breaker off. It just so happens to be the same > cb as the entertainment center is on Ok, I checked this out and found that our AC socket by the TV stand is also with the converter on the same circuit breaker on the Power Center AC panel, so this leaves only the AC socket back in the galley which is on a different breaker (with the water heater), and using that would mean an extension cord would be needed from the rear galley to the TV stand in the living room area, and get tripped over all the time it is rigged. So what to do? The converter has a black and a white wire coming up into the AC panel , the black wire goes to the breaker (with the black wire from the AC socket circuit too) and the white wire goes to a bar of connections on the side that the other white wires go in, each with its own screw-in slot, so the converter's white wire can be disconnected easily. This would allow for a simple on /off switch (the power center tech support guy says the switch should be 15 amps to be on the safe side) to be put in that white wire. This would disable the converter while leaving the AC socket circuit still working. But you would need to get at that on /off switch that would be hidden behind the breaker cover or rigged outside that cover in some convenient but maybe ugly way (Or you could just disconnect the white wire and try not to let it touch anything <G>) Or- The black converter wire to the breaker could be moved to another breaker, namely the galley one, leaving the TV socket circuit on its own breaker. Then you could use the galley breaker for switching off the converter. This is no problem, since you don't want to plug any AC things into the galley socket anyway ? and your water heater is on gas. The possible problem here would be that when you are on shore power AC, maybe the draw from whatever you plug into the galley socket and the converter together with also the water heater if it is on electric might keep tripping the breaker? However, as it is, you might plug some heavy draw things into the AC sockets circuit the converter is with now. The 800 number tech guy for the power center company thought either way would work depending on doing it right. Can anyone see any "issues" with doing this either way, or other pros and cons for each choice, or other choices? ( I suppose, for instance, if you have a higher wattage inverter you might want to use the galley circuit for a toaster or something higher watts, then you might chose the on/off switch -in- the- white wire method, or if you only want to use the TV stand's AC socket, you could go either method) A tip on another forum says to make sure the fridge does not switch over to AC when you plug the shore power cable into your inverter--I assume you just put it on LP mode and not on "auto"? Also you need to refrain from using the microwave and air conditioner, or you could put their circuit breakers to off as well. Any thoughts? Thanks, Barry >>>>Supposedly, all you need is a clever switching arrangement at the AC >>>>distribution panel, then you can use your shore power cable plugged into [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > Thanks, > Barry I think you might have another circuit breaker that you did not mention. That is the one that has your GFI outlets on it, they are in the bath room and outside. You could move the converter(black wire) over to that circuit breaker. Never use the white wire as a control circuit. But I think, looking at my power panel it would be a lot easier to put a standard house light switch (15amp) in close proximity to the power panel with the converter wire running through it and it remaining on the same circuit breaker that it is on. So all you have to do when connecting your shore power to the inverter is turn that switch off, the air conditioner thermostat to off or furnace, the water heater switch located behind access panel in the water heater off and change the refrig over to gas. Unless I have missed something, this would leave you to not using appliances that would overload the inverter, such as microwave or an electric space heater. What kind of an RV do you have, you probably mentioned it earlier but I forgot? And what kind of a battery bank do you have or are going to have? SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > I think you might have another circuit breaker that you did not > mention. That is the one that has your GFI outlets on it, they are > in the bath room and outside. On my 7355 Power Center, the circuit breaker that has the "AC recepticles" black wire combined with the converter black wire, that circuit includes all the sockets, whether GFI or not, in the trailer except the GFI one in the kitchen. There are only four sub-set breakers. Microwave, Air cond, Galley socket/water heater, Converter/ AC sockets >. Never use the white wire as a > control circuit. Not arguing, just don't know--how come? > But I think, looking at my power panel it would be a lot easier to > put a standard house light switch (15amp) in close proximity to the > power panel with the converter wire running through it Ok, that would be the converter's black wire (before it gets joined by the sockets' black wire on the way to the breaker) instead of using the white wire but the same idea? The switch itself would need a bit of locating so the wires remained out of sight, not impossible, I suppose. > remaining on the same circuit breaker that it is on. True, if combining the black wire with the galley black wire is not desired. (seems easier to just splice the converter black wire over to the next breaker's black wire than rig that on/ off switch with the extra work involved and find a pretty way to mount the switch?) > Unless I have missed > something, this would leave you to not using appliances that would > overload the inverter, such as microwave or an electric space heater. You could still plug things into the other sockets that are on the same circuit with the socket by the TV stand. > What kind of an RV do you have, you probably mentioned it earlier > but I forgot? Komfort 26FS (actual length is 28.5) fiver, with rear kitchen layout. TV stand within a set of cupboards is on the right side in the middle opposite the slide with the sofa. The fridge and the kitchen cupboards blend in with the TV stand down the right side, and the 7355 is down low by the fridge. > And what kind of a battery bank do you have or are going to have? Have two 6v Interstate 2200s which are good for ~225 amphrs. I have a 400 watt inverter, so I am good for amps as long as we don't watch too many movies in one night. If I knew then what I know now <G> I would have your AGMs and put them in a new cupboard beside the TV stand and I could have the inverter right there too. I would keep the outside battery bank as now, and have two sets of 225 amphrs to play with. We could have double feature movies, coming attractions, the newsreel, and a cartoon every night, plus run the furnace. :) No microwave popcorn though. Regards, Barry >>I think you might have another circuit breaker that you did not >>mention. That is the one that has your GFI outlets on it, they are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > kitchen. There are only four sub-set breakers. Microwave, Air cond, Galley > socket/water heater, Converter/ AC sockets I, also have the 7355 Power panel. 6 breakers, 1-main,30amp--- 2-Air Con, 20amp--- 3-Entertainment center / converter--- 4- Microwave--- 5- GFI recepticals ----6-Water heater. I modified the #2 by adding a 20amp recepticals next to the power panel where I can plug in an electric space heater. Would not use this when the Air Con. is in use. There are three more recepticals, all in the front bed room that I have not traced to what circuit breaker they are on. >>. Never use the white wire as a >>control circuit. > > Not arguing, just don't know--how come? The white wire is not only the neutral wire but is case ground as well, you could have some back feed from the hot side. >> But I think, looking at my power panel it would be a lot easier to >>put a standard house light switch (15amp) in close proximity to the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The switch itself would need a bit of locating so the wires remained out of > sight, not impossible, I suppose. The entire power panel along with the converter (it is one unit) can be pulled out to give access to the compartment. If you open the hinged cover over the Circuit breakers and DC fuses, look between the power panel and converter at the hinge area, you will see a black wire going from the DC side all the way over and in to the AC circuit breaker side, this is the converter power wire. You can confirm this by following it to your Circuit breaker for the converter. You can find 15amp switches that are smaller than a standard house switch. But I have room for a switch in several areas. >>remaining on the same circuit breaker that it is on. > > True, if combining the black wire with the galley black wire is not desired. > (seems easier to just splice the converter black wire over to the next > breaker's black wire than rig that on/ off switch with the extra work > involved and find a pretty way to mount the switch?) You might find that after you pull the converter wire out, it will be long enough to reach a switch location. Then all you need is the wire between the switch and circuit breaker to add. This would be a minor modification with a major preparation. All power disconnected , batteries and shore. Does your shore power cord come out at the back under the pantry and microwave area just behind the slide? >>Unless I have missed >>something, this would leave you to not using appliances that would [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the slide with the sofa. The fridge and the kitchen cupboards blend in with > the TV stand down the right side, and the 7355 is down low by the fridge. I have your rig floor plan up now, so I know more about what you are talking about. >>And what kind of a battery bank do you have or are going to have? > > Have two 6v Interstate 2200s which are good for ~225 amphrs. I have a 400 > watt inverter, so I am good for amps as long as we don't watch too many > movies in one night. I think the inverter is a little light, is it a true sine or modified? > If I knew then what I know now <G> I would have your AGMs and put them in a > new cupboard beside the TV stand and I could have the inverter right there > too. I would keep the outside battery bank as now, and have two sets of 225 > amphrs to play with. We could have double feature movies, coming > attractions, the newsreel, and a cartoon every night, plus run the > furnace. :) No microwave popcorn though. How do you intend on recharging the battery bank. > Regards, > Barry SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > The white wire is not only the neutral wire but is case ground as > well, you could have some back feed from the hot side. Ok, thanks. > snipped good info >. Does your shore power cord > come out at the back under the pantry and microwave area just behind > the slide? Yes, but it will reach the length of the trailer and out front to the generator in the truck bed, so I could use it to reach an inverter in the front cargo bay too. > > Have two 6v Interstate 2200s which are good for ~225 amphrs. I have a 400 > > watt inverter, so I am good for amps as long as we don't watch too many > > movies in one night. > > I think the inverter is a little light, is it a true sine or modified? Modified, but ok for the things we use it with. Yes, we could carry a loaded 600 watt inverter with that battery bank, but have little need for AC when dry camping except would like to use a bigger TV than we can now using the cigarette connection. (Except for the wife wanting to use her hair dryer!) With the little TV(50 watts) , the DVD (20 watts), and the 2.1 powered speaker set (20 watts) we have been doing ok with the 96 watts available in the cigarette lighter and the 150 watt inverter, but to go to a bigger TV we would go over the 96 watt limit, so I got a 400 watt inverter that has a set of cables to go to the battery (the 150 watt one doesn't have those) as well as a second set for the cigarette connector. If we were big users of AC, we would do this "right". <G> (I think my KISS solution will be to snip the converter black wire to its breaker and splice it to the next door breaker black wire which just has the galley GFI and the water heater on it. We never use the water heater on electrical (after I burned out an $80 element while draining the tank, the safety pin stays in the on/off switch and I consider it a lp only device) That would put the converter in with just the one GFI instead of several AC sockets like now, so I can't see the harm. If anyone can , please speak up. > How do you intend on recharging the battery bank. I can charge up to ~75% in reasonable time by: A. the Honda gen in the truck to the Vector smart charger B. booster cables from the truck battery to the trailer's (more amps than with the connection wire for towing) or use the truck connector wire to the trailer as though towing (too slow charging!) I top off at home or wherever else when on shore power--can't top off "in the field" -it takes too long (days) Regards, Barry There are more than one correct way to do things, the best plan is the one you can understand the most. However You can reduce your inverter load by changing out a CRT TV to a LCD TV, a chance to get a bigger TV. GOOD LUCK. :-) SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > There are more than one correct way to do things, the best plan is > the one you can understand the most. However You can reduce your > inverter load by changing out a CRT TV to a LCD TV, a chance to get > a bigger TV. > > GOOD LUCK. :-) Ok, the continuing saga of the 7355 breakers, etc. More poking around and I found I was wrong in a previous post about what was on each of the four "branch" breakers. This is because whoever labelled them on the cover plate, all nice and neat, had no clue what the breakers really went to! Cripes. So, the real story is --one 20 amp is for the air conditioner --a 15 amp is for the galley GFI receptacle --a 15 amp is for the converter, AC lights, and all the other AC receptacles including GFIs, and the outside ones too. --a 15 amp is for both the water heater and the microwave, which cannot both be on, as controlled by the galley switch for choosing one or the other. So I swapped the converter black wire from the breaker it was on over to join with the one that just has the galley GFI receptacle. Now when I want to plug the shore power cable into the inverter outside and use the trailer's AC receptacles inside, I first simply turn off the converter breaker on the 7355. If I want to be sure of things and since I am there anyway, I can turn off the microwave/water heater breaker and the air conditioner breaker too. Then I only need to make sure the AC lights stay off and the fridge is not on auto so it stays on LP. I think we are in business. As a cautionary tale, in view of the mis-labelling of the 7355 breakers (this would have been at the trailer factory, not where they make the 7355s), I had been trying to get the TV to work properly from the roof antenna for months since we got the trailer. Crappy reception. Tried everything, swapping TVs, cables, etc, no joy. Finally read the operator's instructions (if all else fails...) , unscrewed the wall unit from the TV cabinet and checked it all out. One cable goes to the roof and one to the bedroom. Handout says the one to the roof is carrying the 12 volts to power the antenna booster, and the bedroom one is unpowered. Meter showed 12 volts ok on the wall unit's roof one. Take meter to roof, do daredevil act up there, unscrew the cable from the antenna, meter says no volts on the cable! Does this mean the cable is broken inside the trailer somewhere? How can I fix that if it is? Damn! Back down to the TV stand look at the wall unit. Two coax cables on the back, one roof ,one bedroom. Hmmm. Hmmm some more. Murphy!! Grab wall unit and swap the two coax cables. Back up to roof with meter--ta da-12 volts! Put everything back in , try out TV with no booster--fuzzy--turn on booster--ta da! Perfect picture. So now I figure the factory guy who wired up the TV wall unit must have been the same guy who labelled the breakers on the 7355. I wonder what else he worked on :( Luckily there is a two year bumper- to- pin warranty on the thing and I still have a year to go <G> BTW the "entertainment center" (TV stand , etc) in the 26FS up to the 2004 model year is beside the fridge, but in 2005 I see the floor plan is different and they added a number so it is a 261FS and the "entertainment center" is in the front bulkhead backing onto/into the bathroom. To do that and keep room for the tub etc, it looks like they shifted the forward bulkhead back a foot and shortened in the living room including the big slide-out. Dumb! So to watch TV from the sofa, you have to lie on it instead of sitting there looking across at the TV. Plus less room in the living area so the bathroom can be a foot wider. Plus they moved the sink out of the bathroom (to provide for a linen cupboard) over to beside the wardrobe in the hall, so you can't sh.t, shave, and shampoo all in the one room behind the door like before. Glad we got a 2003. Keep it till we drop! Regards, Barry > > There are more than one correct way to do things, the best plan is > > the one you can understand the most. However You can reduce your [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > Regards, > Barry There were some comments about ground and returns. Forget just what it was about but just wanted to add in that those two should not be connected together inside an RV. If they are connected together the GFI on Shore power outlets will trip because some of the return current will flow in the ground wire. > > So, the real story is --one 20 amp is for the air conditioner > > --a 15 amp is for the galley GFI receptacle [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > trailer's AC receptacles inside, I first simply turn off the converter > > breaker on the 7355.... > There were some comments about ground and returns. Forget just what it was > about but just wanted to add in that those two should not be connected > together inside an RV. If they are connected together the GFI on Shore > power outlets will trip because some of the return current will flow in the > ground wire. Got me worried so I checked things over again. All seems well, but I have a new mystery. The breaker the converter is now on is also for the galley socket, which is the kind with a reset and test button and it says it is "GFCI protected." (on a sticker) So on shore power from the house, I plugged in the toaster to the galley socket and it worked ok till it popped up as normal, didn't blow anything, and the converter kept working too because the DC lights stayed on. (the batteries are disconnected temporarily and out of the trailer while I water them and all that for their monthly routine) The converter used to be on the breaker with the other sockets, one of which (the TV stand one) I thought was a GFI because it is identical to the galley one, only it says on it "no equipment ground" and says nothing about being GFCI. However my AC tester gives two yellow lights in each of these two sockets, which is supposed to mean there is correct polarity *and* a ground. So why does the TV have "no equipment ground?" printed on it (on a sticker, not embosed) I don't think the ground for the sockets is mixed up with the converter anymore now than it was before. The converter only has a black and a white wire, but the wiring to the sockets has three wires, one being the bare ground wire. The converter white wire goes to a common? connection with the other white wires and the other circuits' ground wires are grounded together elsewhere near the breakers, but there is not one from the converter with them cause there isn't one. Beats me. Have I missed something or am I going to electrocute everybody who comes near our trailer? Thanks, Barry > > > So, the real story is --one 20 amp is for the air conditioner > > > --a 15 amp is for the galley GFI receptacle [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Thanks, > Barry What I know is that if you have your ground and returned tied together in the RV and plug into a shore power GFI protected source you will pop it. I have seen this problem happen a couple times. The owners complain that they can plug into shore power at home but when they get to a place with the GFI the CG's outlets trip. A quick fix but not a good one was to remove the ground wire to the plug. Only way I can think of to check is to use an ohm meter between the ground and return of the shore power plug. It should read an open. I don't see any big problem with having a floating ground. Your trailer GFI's will work just fine. Someone outside will not be affected as there is no connection to earth ground until you plug into a Shore power. Then, if ground and return are connected somewhere in the trailer, some of the current will flow in the ground wire. GFI's require that all current flow in the return. Picture plugging in an appliance that has ground and return tied together inside of it, into a GFI. One wire carrying current in and two out. It would pop the GFI. If the two are tied together in the trailer that is what it would look like to a Camp Ground GFI outlet. "Rich256" <nospam@nospam.net> wrote in message news:mf5of.156257$qk4.39934@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att. > What I know is that if you have your ground and returned tied together in > the RV and plug into a shore power GFI protected source you will pop it. I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Only way I can think of to check is to use an ohm meter between the ground > and return of the shore power plug. It should read an open. Haven't tried that, but I just tested it this way. I plugged the trailer shore power into the GFI plug we have in the bathroom in the house and it held ok. I pushed in the test button and a little yellow light came on beside it and the trailer went dark. I pushed the reset button on the bathroom plug-in and the trailer lit up again. So am I in the clear? I know when the shore power cable is to the Honda generator, the trailer plug-ins are not grounded, because you only get one yellow light on the tester. The generator outlets are not grounded either using the tester (they are GFI or whatever, and the tech advice guy said they will not show a ground with that tester, so it's ok), and I don't ground the generator--it sits on the rubber pad covering the floor of the truck's box. Thanks, Barry > Haven't tried that, but I just tested it this way. I plugged the trailer > shore power into the GFI plug we have in the bathroom in the house and it > held ok. I pushed in the test button and a little yellow light came on > beside it and the trailer went dark. I pushed the reset button on the > bathroom plug-in and the trailer lit up again. So am I in the clear? Yeah, that's a great test. It works properly. >>Haven't tried that, but I just tested it this way. I plugged the trailer >>shore power into the GFI plug we have in the bathroom in the house and it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Yeah, that's a great test. It works properly. The ground for the converter would be a green wire connected some where to the case. Check ohms across the neutral and metal case of the power central. A floating ground will eat the anode rod up in the water heater, amongst other things. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > >>Haven't tried that, but I just tested it this way. I plugged the trailer > >>shore power into the GFI plug we have in the bathroom in the house and it [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > A floating ground will eat the anode rod up in the water heater, > amongst other things. But if the Neutral and ground are connected inside the RV yoiu will trip the GFI on Shore Power. When conne |
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