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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / November 20055th wheel or travel trailer?
We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel trailers. I'll be using at least a half ton pickup as a tow vehicle. ( i've yet to buy the tow vehicle as well) Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. thanks all > pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel trailers. That topic probably qualifies as a Ford vs Chevy-type argument here. After 13 years towing a large Starcraft popup camper, we bought our first travel trailer (not fiver) in May, 2000. We bought a travel trailer and NOT a fifthwheel because our tow vehicle was an S10 pickup and the trailer was within the tow rating of the small pickup. I have been seriously considering upgrading, when the time comes, to yet another travel trailer. If I do it will certainly be ONLY because I couldn't part with the covered bed/box of my pickup. After six camping seasons, however, I am tired of climbing in to and out of the back of the pickup. I have every expectation that a FW would haul everything that I now haul in the back of the pickup. Virtually every fifthwheel owner with whom I have spoken was a previous travel trailer owner. They ALL recommended a fiver due to improved towing characteristics, among other purported superior features. > I'll be using at least a half ton pickup as a tow vehicle. > ( i've yet to buy the tow vehicle as well) If you plan to do any amount of "serious" RVing, you would do *WELL* to purchase a "3/4-ton" pickup. Unless you get a particularly SMALL fifthwheel, you'd better forget a wimpy half-ton truck altogether. When I upgraded my from my tow vehicle (S10), I went from "wimpy" to overkill for pulling for my current rig. (See sig below) Of course, this was done to enable a wide selection of RV replacements when the time comes. In the meantime, it's a GREAT towing experience! I believe that, VERY generally speaking, the overall AVERAGE SIZE and CO$T of fifthwheel use is somewhat higher than with a conventional TT. There can be no denying the inherent larger frontal profile when towing a FW. (Implies reduced fuel economy, whatever THAT is!<g>) > Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Remember, you asked! Whatever you do, you'll be much happier if you get a *BIG* "horse". :) JR > thanks all  Signature2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT 2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000 I see where root <da.barnes@shaw.ca> contributed: >We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd >like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel trailers. >I'll be using at least a half ton pickup as a tow vehicle. ( i've yet to buy >the tow vehicle as well.) Though some character from the outer edges of the nut fringe is likely to tell tales of derring do with 1/2-ton pickups, PLEASE don't try to tow with one unless you choose a dinky fiver. Unless you go for a $$$$$Hensley or PullRite hitch, no TT will ever handle as well as a fifth-wheeler. BTDT. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill 50 years of rv'ing Mr. Sill, there is one thing that is certain, every single post of yours has a sentence or two that always sends me into bouts of laughter. >some character from the outer edges of the nut fringe I see where "Tatiele" <Jack@InTheBox.Com> contributed: >Mr. Sill, there is one thing that is certain, every single post of yours has >a sentence or two that always sends me into bouts of laughter. Nice to know there is someone out there who doesn't have a hissy fit for each of my posts. To hear it from some, I must be responsible for many premature deaths! Will Sill "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." William James Hey Will, the way i figger it is It's the internet. It's for entertainment purposes only. Never to be taken seriously in any manner. <G>. Life is too serious to take seriously. steve >I see where "Tatiele" <Jack@InTheBox.Com> contributed: >>Mr. Sill, there is one thing that is certain, every single post of yours [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > are merely rearranging their prejudices." > William James Actually to go one more further, the very idea that a herd of posters doesn't like you makes you a hero in my book and worth listening to. I am not a sheep and try to make up my own mind and so far so good. Carry on. >I see where "Tatiele" <Jack@InTheBox.Com> contributed: >>Mr. Sill, there is one thing that is certain, every single post of yours [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > are merely rearranging their prejudices." > William James > We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd > like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. > thanks all You probably can't get a 5th wheel small enough to tow with "at least a half ton pickup". Well, maybe you can, but you're proably going to be better off with a small TT. If you were talking about "at least a 3/4 ton pickup" my answer would be different. Cheers, Joe >>We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd >>like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Cheers, Joe I dont agree with you Joe. I think a half ton would handle a 5er much better than a TT. My GMC has a goose neck hitch and I have hauled some fairly healthy loads in my stock trailer. I also have a flatbed trailer that the comparative load did not do as good with the GMC. Of course if he is talking about using a 1/2 ton rather than a 3/4 ton, he does not have a very serous camper in mind anyway. But he did say "at least" so we could be talking bigger and one comment could be added. Compute the total weight that will be involved to include the dog and cat. Then look for a vehicle that has a GCWR of 20% more than your estimated weight. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd > like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel trailers. > I'll be using at least a half ton pickup as a tow vehicle. ( i've yet to buy > the tow vehicle as well) > Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. > thanks all Recommend close reading of a few (more than one) "How to buy an RV" type books. They stress you need to know what you need it for before buying anything, where you can go and not go with different sizes and types, and carry in them. All the advantages and disadvantages (can't post whole chapters on that here, and there are many things they mention that you won't have thought of) If you buy new, you lose 40 % of your money in depreciation as soon as you sign the papers. You get killed on trade -in or re-sale if you buy the wrong RV. You can't afford to screw up by not knowing your requirements first. Matching truck to trailer for what truck can do is vital. Read the driver's manual on trailer pulling capacity *before* you buy the truck. Don't believe the salesman! Make sure you know the difference between "payload weight" and "cargo weight." The salesman will use the former and try to snow you. Regards, Barry > We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd > like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel trailers. > I'll be using at least a half ton pickup as a tow vehicle. ( i've yet to buy > the tow vehicle as well) > Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. > thanks all Appears as though you have been enlightened to several opinions. Experience is the only teacher in the phase of RVing that you are currently in and you are doing well to recognize the lack of it. As some have stated, you must put your self in a position that you can change from size to size or type to type with out it costing you an arm and a leg, because it can if you dont do it correctly. I have been down the S-10, 17' tow trailer (TT) road. It was ok but quite a bit restrictive as to what you could bring along in your over night bag. I also bought a 26' TT and a GMC 1500 with a factory installed tow package. That worked well also, but had the same weight restrictions. Both of these experiences included the use of a load equalizer type hitch but not the high droller Hensley, or other hitches that cost an arm and a leg. The weight distribution is extremely critical in a TT. But that said, they work, by what ever margin you want to consider. Down hill is the best, that is when you know there could be something lacking. I progressed to a motorhome (MH) considering you so far are not interested in this costly venture I will not give you any pointers. The fifth wheel (5er) has proven to be exactly like a goose neck as is used in stock and other industries. They have only two drawbacks. One they will short cut you in a turn, so you must swing out and make what is called a sweeping turn. The second is they take up room in the back of the tow truck with their hitch. I have a tool box with the two generators in it and some other things. But I am questioning my choice of the short 6' bed. Had I known the turning radius of the truck was so good I would have chose an 8' bed. I also feel there might come the time that I wished I had 4X4 drive. If that situation was to get critical I could resort to a portable winch. If I were you I would get pre owned rigs and save some money. You can do this in such a manner that you could buy cheap and sell for profit. But above all watch out that you are not buying someone else's problems. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog snip good stuff > The fifth wheel (5er) has proven to be exactly like a goose neck as > is used in stock and other industries. They have only two drawbacks. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > questioning my choice of the short 6' bed. Had I known the turning > radius of the truck was so good I would have chose an 8' bed. I also.... Maybe not. You do need enough wheel base on the truck to go with the trailer besides any question of box-length. Since an extended cab is needed or you will hate your truck, you get a nice lonnng truck with that and an eight foot box. We have that and you have to be real careful driving it around town and in parking lots. Before you learn the hard way, you can get into places you can't get out of. Backing and filling to make a sharp turn with narrow lanes--except you can't back up because the idiot behind you is right on your bumper. But: You don't have to sweat the short box with a fiver thing. You can jack-knife more when parking etc. One guy we know with a short box put out his back window with the corner of his trailer <G>. The tool box behind the back window up on the box sides can be fun. One guy had less clearance from the sides of his truck to the bottom of the trailer than the height of his tool box when he was turning onto a steep incline and the tool box scrunched the corner of his trailer--cost over $3K to fix. Some fivers have the bottom of the front cap cut back to give more clearance and some come straight down to make having that style with a short box more interesting. Regards, Barry I like the long box though. We have the risky tool box and it is full of junk, and the big 3000 generator between that and the hitch. I can't see the hitch so I put a red stripe of vapour tape on the tool box to guide me backing to the pin .Some 4X1 sheets of plywood for under the low side tires, etc-- never make it with a short box! > snip good stuff > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > backing to the pin .Some 4X1 sheets of plywood for under the low side > tires, etc-- never make it with a short box! You have me confused now. Are you saying that the corner of the 5er made contact with the rear window of the cab. Or are you saying some one was stupid enough to have a toolbox that hangs on the side of the bedbox and hooked up to a 5er, and made contact with the tool box, in turn the tool box took the back glass out. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > You have me confused now. Are you saying that the corner of the 5er > made contact with the rear window of the cab. Or are you saying some > one was stupid enough to have a toolbox that hangs on the side of > the bedbox and hooked up to a 5er, and made contact with the tool > box, in turn the tool box took the back glass out. Sorry. three different guys. Tool box story second hand from a neighbour who was in Mexico when this happened to another guy there. Don't know if short or long box involved. Back window story from people we know. Plus we have a long box with the tool box still there even though we now know this is stupid. Makes us effectively a short box with a fiver for jack- knife limit. The guy who told us about the tool box thing was busy making a big plywood tool box that was no higher than his box sides. He made two, one for the front and one for the back side of the hitch, each with a lockable lid. Regards, Barry >> You have me confused now. Are you saying that the corner of the 5er >> made contact with the rear window of the cab. Or are you saying some [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > for the front and one for the back side of the hitch, each with a lockable > lid. I don't have a toolbox but I do have a folding bed lid that stacks where a toolbox would go. I can jackknife the 5er and have never come close to the lid. On the other hand, the corner of the fender and the tailgate is an entirely different matter (but a few whacks with a ball peen hammer sorted that out). I have seen a guy with a short box truck smash out his rear window trying to back into a spot. I think it was a sliding hitch too, but he forgot to slide. Cheers, Joe > I don't have a toolbox but I do have a folding bed lid that stacks where a > toolbox would go. I can jackknife the 5er and have never come close to the > lid. On the other hand, the corner of the fender and the tailgate is an > entirely different matter (but a few whacks with a ball peen hammer sorted > that out). This guy building tool boxes also carried two little motor scooters wherever they went, one mounted between the truck and the trailer and the other on the back of the trailer. I still can't figure out how the one behind the truck didn't get scrunched. > I have seen a guy with a short box truck smash out his rear window trying to > back into a spot. I think it was a sliding hitch too, but he forgot to > slide. You're not supposed to laugh. For some strange reason they get all up-tight. (The best part of RVing is watching other victims trying to cope. ISTR the Germans have a name for that--shadensomething--of course half the RVers we see are Germans over here (BC) in rented RVs--must take guts doing that--I sure wouldn't like to try RVng over there with no idea of what's what.) Regards, Barry >>You have me confused now. Are you saying that the corner of the 5er >>made contact with the rear window of the cab. Or are you saying some [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Regards, > Barry I can understand that now. I have a tool box that sets on the floor of my bed and is no taller than the sides. It is also not as wide, allowing me room on each side to put 2X4 or eight foot boards in the bed. I might be interested in some kind of lock box that sets in the back of the bed, but I havent looked around yet. Gotta keep the project count down, roof on house, TV cable to barn, phone cable to barn, two Trojan batteries and a 600watt inverter installed in 5er, sell house, never ending tasks to get to be a full timer. All I want to do is outlast the projects. If they are truly never ending can that be done? SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > I can understand that now. I have a tool box that sets on the floor > of my bed and is no taller than the sides. It is also not as wide, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to do is outlast the projects. If they are truly never ending can > that be done? 1. The back tool box has to clear the pin when hitching up. You can be creative with hinged top and sides. 2. You can't take it with you, and your last cheque they try to cash after you die is supposed to bounce. 3. I was shocked at the weight you reported for the Trojans. You could be right about bracing up your battery box against vertical acceleration when you hit a bump. Of course then you have to find a good way to attach the braces to take the strain. At least those batteries will add pin weight. We have trouble getting enough to prevent pin bounce, which we get going up hill (ok on the flat or down hill) Cram everything heavy up front in the trailer for travelling, and keep the back grey tank empty and the front tanks with something in them, still not quite enough. Regards, Barry > 1. The back tool box has to clear the pin when hitching up. You can be > creative with hinged top and sides. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Regards, > Barry 1. How about two rear tool boxes, one on each side. I think there is enough room that the two EU2000i gen sets will fit one on each side. As well as the extra electrical garb you have to carry. 2. I think the plastic should self destruct as well. 3.I would bet you have a rear kitchen model. And where is your fresh water tank, back where most of them are. YOU! Were shocked, it came to life when I started to pick up one of the boxes. The support brackets will be simple for me to fabricate, just use long stove bolts to hold brackets up similar to a hold down bracket, just upside down. The front compartment has a thick sheet metal floor, with a square hole cut in it and a plastic well stuck down in the hole. I'll have to cut another hole for the other battery well and intend to reinforce the sheet metal with light angle iron. If it does not look like it will work I'll have two sheet metal wells made, like you say cant take it with me. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > 1. How about two rear tool boxes, one on each side. I think there is > enough room that the two EU2000i gen sets will fit one on each side. I guess two of those back of the axle wouldn't weigh enough to matter. > 3.I would bet you have a rear kitchen model. And where is your fresh > water tank, back where most of them are. Yep. "26 ft" (actually 28) 2003 Komfort. (love the floorplan, decent workmanship, etc) The axles are nicely back but I can't quite get the weights right. With the newer (2003) 2WD Chev the box is so high it is tough to get the trailer level to even the load on both its axles. Raised the pin and lowered the hitch, got it level but that only leaves 4 1/2 inches clearance above the box gunwales. So far that seems to be enough , but I have seen guides that say you should have at least an inch more than that. Just have to watch it going onto steep inclines like a ferry ramp. On the scales, the back axle is still a bit more than the front, but not enough to worry about maxing out the load limit on the trailer's back tires, like it was before I got it level. At least I didn't have to "flip" it like the last trailer which was shorter (a 22) The pricks that designed the trailer put on tires which have just enough load limit to carry their part of the trailer's GVWR among the four of them, with the rest of the GVWR having to be taken by pin weight. We don't weigh up to GVWR when loaded, but even so, it is easy to max out the back tires if the trailer is tipped back a bit. One benifit of going to 16" tires would have been to get more load limit per tire and have some extra than what we got issued with. Got a flat that showed after I parked one time. Then realized the one tire on that side was now carrying nearly twice its load limit! Glad it didn't happen going down the road. Again the 16s would give more reserve to take that over-weight. Also found out the advice in the trailer manual to use your truck jack to change a tire on the trailer (because they don't issue a trailer jack) was no good. The truck jack nearly broke- it was very hard to turn the handle. After that I now carry a small hydraulic jack in the trailer--and some bricks and wood etc--the jack is way too short without. Regards, Barry > > 1. How about two rear tool boxes, one on each side. I think there is > > enough room that the two EU2000i gen sets will fit one on each side. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Regards, > Barry I carry my trailer jack in my shirt pocket. Whenever I need the trailer jacked up, I pull it out of my shirt pocket and call the Good Sam 1-800 number. A little later someone with a jack appears and changes my tire. I don't even get my hands dirty! <g> Ron <snip> > Also found out the advice in the trailer manual to use your truck jack to > change a tire on the trailer (because they don't issue a trailer jack) was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Regards, > Barry Bricks and cinder blocks under jacked equipment are dangerous; they have nasty crumbling habits... Rick > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Rick You are correct there, can be a dangerous situation. I try to carry a few short 1X or 2X treated boards a few inches long just to have something to pull the rig up on to help level it. But I ran in to a set of plastic blocks that will connect together and provide the same thing. But I have to evaluate them to be a jack platform if needed, I'm not sure they will work. I do always carry a hefty lowboy hydraulic jack, but got a good idea I'll have to get a jack base to carry along. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > You are correct there, can be a dangerous situation. I try to carry > a few short 1X or 2X treated boards a few inches long just to have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > lowboy hydraulic jack, but got a good idea I'll have to get a jack > base to carry along. The 4 X 4 blocks of wood and other smaller wood used with the back stabilizer jacks to let them reach a platform before expanding too far can also be used under the too-short jack. We carry several sheets of plywood about 1 by 4 ft, some 1/4" and some 1/2" thick to drive up on for levelling. This way you can choose different thickness combinations to get it just right. Sometimes have to go back and forth a few times to get the right combination. Also provides the platform between the wheels for the metal screw out chocks thingy that is supposed to stop trailer rocking motion ( not sure it does) but which can't be set on the ground because it digs in and then doesn't work right. Drove me crazy at first until I learned to put the slide out before driving up on the wood to level. When the slide is out it makes the trailer sag that way. Used to get all set up perfectly level and then put out the slide and over she'd go. Too late to hook up again and fix it. Different heights on the front jacks on uneven ground and setting the back stabilizers twists the trailer enough to cause another problem we had. The bathroom door swings open to become a passageway door as required, with a holding clip on the passageway door frame. This would work at one stop and the next place the clip would be above or below the holder part. Move the holder so it lines up with the thing on the door. Next stop it is out of line again! Door just bounces off. Make lots of new screw holes in the door frame. Wrong. What to do? Swap the clip holder thing for a big set of magnet holders, door and frame. Now the door catches every stop no matter which way the trailer is twisted. Regards, Barry > The 4 X 4 blocks of wood and other smaller wood used with the back > stabilizer jacks to let them reach a platform before expanding too far can [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Regards, > Barry I have found that the more the diligence spent outside the less problems are found inside. I find myself playing a game on the leveling thing. I carry a string with a nail and a string-level. Anchor the string end on the high side of the pad with the nail and stretch it over to the other side, hook the level on the string and raise it until the bubble indicates level. The distance above the ground will be what is required in blocking under the tires on the low side. I allow one inch for the slide sag. Some times it even works, but the application depends on how many people is watching, how tired you are and how good the weather is. With the rear stabilization jacks there is no problem, mine crank down independently. I have been known to park just right where the concrete traffic log, found in most COE camp grounds are under the rear jacks. The front landing gear is a must for even weight and I always put the pin stabilizer up. But that follows several trips in to the kitchen with a 10" level. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > I have found that the more the diligence spent outside the less > problems are found inside. I find myself playing a game on the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > always put the pin stabilizer up. But that follows several trips in > to the kitchen with a 10" level. Ha. Our counters are not level with the stove top or the floor-- it's is a little different everywhere. The bubbles I put outside by the jack control are set to a sort of average for inside. I figure if I get it so an egg stays in the middle of the frying pan instead of sliding off to one side then a miracle has happened. Do those pin stabilizers work? Our trailer still wobbles a bit even with the other things all tight. I have a locking no- tow pin gizmo I would have to toss, because I think the pin stabilizers come with their own? For true levelling adventure, we nearly always park on the lumpy rough ground near fairground fields where the dog-agility rings are set up. You get a nice fore and aft ground slope (either way, depending) plus the sideways slope. The string thing wouldn't work, because the jacks and tires are either where there are holes or bumps. Doesn't matter how much you try to find a good spot, there isn't one. Hence the versatile lumber supply we always take. The rear jacks sometimes won't reach so we have the wood to put under them too. The few campgrounds we go to aren't much better. One fancy place, the guy claimed he had levelled the pads using a laser beam. Didn't matter because there were dips in the gravel pad from previous trailers and out came the lumber. Our neighbour with the big fiver sometimes digs a hole one side as well as raising the other, parking it in his yard. They go to a Mexican beach so maybe that's what they do down there on the sand. He also claims his truck dually back wheels are good on the sand and he has had to tow out other trucks with single back wheels who got themselves stuck. Regards, Barry >> I have found that the more the diligence spent outside the less >> problems are found inside. I find myself playing a game on the [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] >Regards, >Barry The stabilizers work some what, but even better is to add the wheel chock that goes between the wheels. It works better than the chocks on the ground and it stops that movement that comes from the wheels squirming. SignatureFrank Tabor I see where Frank Tabor <ftabor@gmail.com> contributed: >The stabilizers work some what, but even better is to add the wheel >chock that goes between the wheels. It works better than the chocks >on the ground and it stops that movement that comes from the wheels >squirming. When we first started rv travel, we thought it was important that the rig be parked dead level and as solid as though on a poured concrete foundation. On our GMC MH (air suspension rear) we had tapered blocks but mainly so we didn't suffer from the bags leaking down. As the years passed we learned that even old-stye propane refrigerators did not require precision leveling, and us humans not only could survive a bit of off level (some think we are half a bubble outa plumb anyway) but didn't suffer at all if the rig jiggled a little. Never mind why. In recent years we've paid minimal attention to level (I do have one of those nifty round bubbles on the running board of the B) and NONE to anti-jiggle measures. Never mind why. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >I see where Frank Tabor <ftabor@gmail.com> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Will Sill >The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill It seems that with the newer fifth wheels, especially, the added extra height makes the rear stabilizer jacks less sturdy. I despise having the RV shake when someone walks across the floor. And the top step is more than a standard 7 inches below the sill, (no kin), so when someone exits the RV, it causes it to shake, a lot. So I try to get the setup as rigid as I can. Level not with standing. As long as the refer door and the bathroom door don't swing, it's close enough. SignatureFrank Tabor > It seems that with the newer fifth wheels, especially, the added extra > height makes the rear stabilizer jacks less sturdy. I despise having [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the setup as rigid as I can. Level not with standing. As long as the > refer door and the bathroom door don't swing, it's close enough. Our axles are set back so that they are 2 1/2 feet closer to the rear stabilizers than to the front jacks. The rear stabilizers do a good job, but there is a lot of play in the front jacks. You can push sideways on the trailer by the front jacks and easily get it to wobble sideways. If a dog jumps on the bed (up past the front jacks), you can feel it back in the kitchen end. A pin stabilizer might be the answer, but I am not sure they have enough leg spread. Also parking on hills up or down makes the pin real high or real low and I wonder how much those pin stabilizer legs can be adjusted? I suppose they are least effective when the pin is high? Maybe I need to mate my trailer with a back hoe and get those hydraulic legs that stick out? Regards, Barry > Maybe I need to mate my trailer with a back hoe > and get those hydraulic legs that stick out? Outriggers? With rigs these days now sporting 4 and 5 slide-out extensions, that wouldn't be much of a stretch of the imagination: Outriggers would make such a sprawling monster MUCH more stable inside. (BAL are you listening?) I, too, prefer a solid setup with leveling jacks (not stabilizers) on all four corners. I suppose it would be different inside a motorhome. Perhaps I'll find out some day... :) JR >>I see where Frank Tabor <ftabor@gmail.com> contributed: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > the setup as rigid as I can. Level not with standing. As long as the > refer door and the bathroom door don't swing, it's close enough. Frank do you use those chocks between the wheels on both sides? SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog >>>I see where Frank Tabor <ftabor@gmail.com> contributed: >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Frank do you use those chocks between the wheels on both sides? Yes. Any movement that is occurring is a squirm type of movement. So locking the wheels keeps the whole rig from twisting on the jacks. It seems to make it a lot steadier. But I usually don't deploy all that for just an overnight stop. Too much work. I just live with the wiggle. SignatureFrank Tabor > Yes. Any movement that is occurring is a squirm type of movement. So > locking the wheels keeps the whole rig from twisting on the jacks. It > seems to make it a lot steadier. > > But I usually don't deploy all that for just an overnight stop. Too > much work. I just live with the wiggle. I find you still have to use regular chocks while setting up on a slope. Our hitch jams when you first park and you extend the jacks to lift the pin. Then you have to get back in the truck and reverse a tad to get the hitch handle loose. That backing up if the between wheels chocks are set just jams the front one into the front tire and leaves the other end free. You can still screw them out tight but it is worrisome seeing that metal poking so deep into the tread. If you use regular chocks and then only put the anti-rockers in after you are set up it works ok. Then hitching up is another big bang on the chocks, same thing, take the inside chocks out first, using the regular chocks to hold the trailer on the hillside. Part of the sport is crawling under the extended slide- out to get at the tires to put in your chock thingy. It is always raining when you do this. Regards, Barry >>I have found that the more the diligence spent outside the less >>problems are found inside. I find myself playing a game on the [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > Regards, > Barry That is the reason I make the trip in the kitchen, level to the counter between the sink and stove, that is where most of the cooking gets done. I use an electric skillet, there and a toaster oven on the stove top cover. The skillet I like to be level. every thing else can be a compromise. The pin tripod that I have does not have a lock to it but it provides an absolute steady brace for the front. The rear stabilizers are only good for side movement prevention. The Ultra Rock stopper wheel chock you mentioned has a padlock on the one I just looked at on the RV web site. They look like a good idea coupled with the side stabilization jacks you should be fairly steady. The movement does not bother me because any that occurs I made so it is expected. I can see when you are setting there watching TV and some one else gets up and walks around you would feel the movement. Dog just bounces on the door step when he wants in and that's all the unexpected movement that goes on in my rig. The dual rear wheel rigs might be a little better than a single but the 4WD is where it is for off road activity. Like I have said, I might see the time I wish my Ram was 4WD. Weight on the drive wheels and AT Tread has a lot to do with it too. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog ...snip... > Different heights on the front jacks on uneven ground and setting the back > stabilizers twists the trailer enough to cause another problem we had. The [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Regards, > Barry I use velcro on my door. Works every time. John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee > > frame. Wrong. What to do? Swap the clip holder thing for a big set of > > magnet holders, door and frame. Now the door catches every stop no matter > > which way the trailer is twisted. > I use velcro on my door. Works every time. I'm sure whoever builds RVs has never been RVing in his life or we wouldn't need to do these things. (There is a special place in Hell for the guy who screwed all the door fittings on with those metal screws that turn and turn but never tighten!) What other mods have people made to their RVs? (Maybe get some good ideas, he thinks) eg, replace the entry door latch striker with a real one that works more than once without shifting out of place, put a spring-hold shower curtain rod over the tub to hang wet rain gear,....?? Thanks, Barry . > What other mods have people made to their RVs? (Maybe get some good > ideas, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > curtain > rod over the tub to hang wet rain gear,....?? My trailer came with a built in heavy duty vinyl covered metal rod over the shower/tub behind the curtain track. It also came with an $80 lock set along with a 2" throw dead bolt lock, so neither of those were add on for me. Even though it was built 20 years ago, it also came with outside compartment mounted phone and cable jacks. It DIDN'T come with a thermostat controlled electrical outlet for the electric heater though. You see, I want to control the temperature of the RV, not the temperature of the heater! ;-) I also added many shelves inside cabinets/storage compartments, both inside and outside. Tom J >What other mods have people made to their RVs? Automatic Directv satellite dish with Tivo in living room and regular receiver in the bedroom. Made Tivo/TV stand out of oak bull nosed stair step. Installed Computer desk. (Soon will extend built in credenza to make it built in computer desk. Wilson cellular antenna bolted to the side of trailer. Hensley Arrow hitch. Painted the walls and added wood baseboard molding. Added porcelain toilet. Bookshelf in hall. Replaced accordion door with curtain. Replaced accordion shower door with shower curtain, Removed drawers from under sofa to make more storage. Replaced cheap brass looking cabinet hardware with brushed nickel and antlers handles. Changed cornice boards from fabric to wood. Ripped out w/w carpet and have "wood" floors. Got smaller microwave which fits inside cabinet, put oil painting over the opening. Replaced wood magazine rack by the door with a fishing creel to keep doggie poop bags in. Replacing stove/oven with two burner gas cooktop, changing sink and getting new kitchen counters. Replaced Moen faucet in kitchen, for fancy Kohler faucet. Put shelves in one closet top to bottom, for more storage. Covered "carpeted" walls with wood. Removed all curtains in living room for more panoramic view. Took mirrors out of cabinet doors and replaced with bead board paneling. Replaced fridge front with same bead board paneling. Made Plexiglas storms to fit on screen door to allow outside door to stay open when heat and air are on. Can remove easily by turning clips. Put wood shelf on top of bedroom dresser for lamp and stuffed animals. Put quick release hose fittings on all connections. Got Water Stick water softener. I'm sure there's more but that's all I can come up with off the top of my head. Hunter -- http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!" >>What other mods have people made to their RVs? > [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > >Hunter That's our Hunter... building her dream home, one piece at a time. www.arcatapet.net/bobgiddings >That's our Hunter... building her dream home, one piece at a >time. I have this need to improve things.... and build. I'm so fortunate to have the farm where I spend the winter. So far, since I got back 2 months ago I've built a floating dock, a duck creep feeder, a kitchen island and a hanging pot rack.... Will start the kitchen renovation in my trailer next week. Hunter -- http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!" snip excellent list > I'm sure there's more but that's all I can come up with off the top of > my head. Thanks. That gives me courage to do some renovating too. We mostly need more of a mud-room entry instead of the "posh looking" but useless way they did it to sell trailers.(ours now looks like a refugee camp for real life) Not enough room for muddy boots, wipe off the wet muddy dogs, put the wet towels and clothes and hang your rain hat. And who put the heater vent in the kitchen floor right where you have to feed the dogs, (because of carpet elsewhere) so the vent fills with spillage? (Probably the same guy who put another floor vent *under* the big Lazy boy chair that took up half the floor it seemed until we landed it along with two of the four table chairs.) Is your new "wood" floor that laminate stuff or lino with a wood design? Did you do the slide(s) too or leave that/them carpeted? Love to yank our main floor part carpet/part lino and go all high quality lino with a nice washable rug in front of the sofa instead. Regards, Barry >Is your new "wood" floor that laminate stuff or lino with a wood design?> Lino with a wood design. Everyone who sees it thinks it really is wood, it's really great looking. Did >you do the slide(s) too or leave that/them carpeted?> I don't have slides, I live in an Airstream. I don't even use a rug... two dogs and a cat... Hunter -- http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!" <snip > Different heights on the front jacks on uneven ground and setting the back > stabilizers twists the trailer enough to cause another problem we had. <snip> > Regards, > Barry I missed this earlier. Barry what ever, to extend the front landing gear uneven is not the best thing to do. Doing this could warp the frame and cause a lot of loosening of panel components. This is a situation that will always occur when you have to block up under one side of the tires. Could expect to block the landing gear around the same amount. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog > Barry what ever, to extend the front landing gear uneven is not the > best thing to do. Doing this could warp the frame and cause a lot of > loosening of panel components. This is a situation that will always > occur when you have to block up under one side of the tires. > Could expect to block the landing gear around the same amount. Not sure I understand. I did fail the landing gear IQ test on our first time on a hill where the pin was uphill, so maybe I still don't get it. (I dropped the inner legs and unhooked and then couldn't lower the trailer front because the outer legs were already up- a guy who couldn't stand watching the newbie anymore came over and showed me how they work <G>) I try to avoid levelling the trailer with the landing gear and twisting the frame, by using the wood under the low side tires. (except for one sheet under the other tires as well to support the chocks thingy on that side) But I can't avoid that the landing gear legs are at different heights even if the trailer is level because the ground is uneven and the inner legs drop to the nearest locking position, which might leave, eg, one leg on the ground and the other slightly above. I then slip a piece of plywood under the foot so both are as though on the ground. If the plywood isn't exactly the right thickness, then there is still some twisting from extending the outer legs. On grass you can have a soft spot under one leg too even with plywood to spread the load. So I always seem to get a little twisting. The back stabilizers crank down to where they seem tight, but they also move the trailer up a bit at their corners, and I can't tell how much each side makes them "even." If you crank one back corner tight it loosens the other so you run back and forth --trying not to step on your crank so to speak. (I also sometimes fail that IQ test by getting the back ones tight after I have levelled with the front ones, which raises the back end a bit so then I see I need to raise the front so I extend some more and try to squash the back jacks) Like you say, it is all down to how tired you are from your low-stress (!) drive to the camp site) If there is a smarter way to do all this I would appreciate being in on the secret! My neighbour with the big fiver swears he is going to get one of those big MHs like his friend has. He claims his friend just parks his rig and pushes a button and the self-levelling legs go down and he is on his first beer before my neighbour even gets unhooked <G> Regards, Barry >> Barry what ever, to extend the front landing gear uneven is not the >> best thing to do. Doing this could warp the frame and cause a lot of [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >Regards, >Barry Your first mistake is trying to level the fiver on a slope so steep that one landing gear is up and the other one is extended. Dropping the landing gear extensions is the correct way to do it. Never use the landing gear or rear stabilizers to level the FW. Here is another trick, if you have to use a lot of boards under one side to level it, put the same number of boards under the same side rear wheel of the tow vehicle. It helps to unhitch. I normally don't raise the FW very much off the hitch to unhook. I know that my truck will rise about 4 inches, so I only raise enough that I know the pin will clear the tailgate. SignatureFrank Tabor > Your first mistake is trying to level the fiver on a slope so steep > that one landing gear is up and the other one is extended. Sorry, I don't follow. The inner legs drop different lengths but the outer legs go up and down together so how can one be up and one down? I am trying to level transversely with the wood under the tires and longitudinally with the front jacks. The rear stabilizers are set last but they do move their corners up a bit. >snip good stuff Regards, Barry > Sorry, I don't follow. The inner legs drop different lengths but > the outer [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > last but > they do move their corners up a bit. There is not a thing wrong with what you are doing. Some are saying only park on level parking pads, or pads that are off level the same end to end. It ain't gonna happen most of the time, so your method is just fine. If the landing gear was not supposed to be used with the drop down extenders, they wouldn't be there. Tom J > There is not a thing wrong with what you are doing. Some are saying > only park on level parking pads, or pads that are off level the same > end to end. It ain't gonna happen most of the time, so your method is > just fine. If the landing gear was not supposed to be used with the > drop down extenders, they wouldn't be there. Thanks, I was hoping I finally got it figured. BTW what's a pad? That must be another name for the rough patch in tall grass next to the woods with the sign on a tree saying , "Beware of the bear seen yesterday" and a puddle right where your door goes they send the RVs to for dog events :) Regards, Barry >> Sorry, I don't follow. The inner legs drop different lengths but >> the outer [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Tom J That's not what I was trying to say. His procedure is correct. But earlier he said something about one landing leg was already on the ground before he started. That's way too much slope. SignatureFrank Tabor Tom J wrote: >>Sorry, I don't follow. The inner legs drop different lengths but >>the outer [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Tom J Tom, I do not think anyone was trying to imply that the pad tubes could not be extended, that is what they are for. The only concern is to apply the same amount of lifting pressure on each side. This is to prevent twisting the RV frame, and that's not even intended to be an absolute, I'm sure there is some flexibility to it. My standard procedure is to lower the jacks just a few inches and then drop the tubes as far as they will. If the pad plates will reach hard surface I pin the tubes down and jack the rig up off of the truck. The only variation to this is if the front is high, I will not extend both tubes. Run the jacks down until one is about to touch then extend the other side tube down to equal ground contact. After raising the rig up enough to pull the truck out I can lower the front back down close to level. Then set up the pin tripod stabilizer, then drop the rig down to level point. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog >> Your first mistake is trying to level the fiver on a slope so steep >> that one landing gear is up and the other one is extended. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Regards, >Barry That's correct, but if you are on a slope that all the beer cans roll out of the cab of the truck when you open the driver's door, then the slope is too steep. Yes, run your landing gear down a ways. If one side is already close to the ground before you extend the landing gear and before dropping the gear extension, then too much slope. SignatureFrank Tabor > >> Your first mistake is trying to level the fiver on a slope so steep > >> that one landing gear is up and the other one is extended. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >longitudinally with the front jacks. The rear stabilizers are set last but > >they do move their corners up a bit. > That's correct, but if you are on a slope that all the beer cans roll > out of the cab of the truck when you open the driver's door, then the > slope is too steep. Hey, I save those to throw out the window (joke there somewhere) to fool police radar. > Yes, run your landing gear down a ways. If one side is already close > to the ground before you extend the landing gear and before dropping > the gear extension, then too much slope. Good point earlier about getting the truck low side up to help (un) hitching. The drop down legs have locking positions which usually mean you can't lock them at ground level but to the nearest position a bit higher with different sized gaps from foot to ground on each side. Then you have to lower them until one touches and shim the other foot- to- ground to keep the trailer level when you extend the outer legs the rest of the way. How much is "too much" slope is what I am uncertain about. So far I know it is too much when my wife can't reach the steps into the trailer. (She didn't like climbing on the picnic table seat first to get on the stairs either--talk about fussy) Now I try to point the trailer so the door is uphill so she doesn't keep moaning about the steps <G> Regards, Barry >If there is a smarter way to do all this I would appreciate being in on the >secret! My neighbour with the big fiver swears he is going to get one of >those big MHs like his friend has. He claims his friend just parks his rig >and pushes a button and the self-levelling legs go down and he is on his >first beer before my neighbour even gets unhooked <G> It's partly just a state of mind. If we're not going to be in one spot for weeks and weeks we get less excited about level. If the eggs won't stay in the middle of the pan you can use that to your advantage. The grease will collect on the low side which is good for your heart as long as you get the eggs stuck to the high side, if you followed that. When we travelled with trailers I used to level side to side with blocks as you have said you do. Then I would raise the front until I was getting "close" to level. Then I would drop the back jacks until they were just snug. Then I would finish raising the front to level which would put some weight on the back jacks. For some reason it seemed more important with the trailer than it does now. Which is why I think it is probably just a state of mind. R.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) >> We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd >> like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. >> thanks all <<SNIPPED CONTENT HERE>> We went from a Starcraft Spacemaster pop-up after three years directly to a 32' Wilderness 5'er w/ slide. It is a wonderful unit to tow! I have never once had issues with semis sucking me over, sway is virtually non-existent, and the very little extra cost was worth every dime for us! Hookup ease is another consideration, nothing to it. With the removable fifth-wheel hitches of today, you can get your full bed back in only minutes of removing the hitch from it's pins. Made the mistake of buying a short-box truck the first time! NEVER AGAIN!!! A 6' bed is next to useless. Never pulled it with less than a 2500HD 6.0L w/ 4.10 and now have a 2500HD w/ the 8.1L, Allison tranny, and 4.10. That's all in a crew cab LONG BOX 2500HD 4WD. She'll git 'er done! Definitely a personal pref. type decision, but a 5'er is great! Backing is MUCH easier once you learn the tricks. This past summer I put 'er back in a spot that another camper was thinking would never happen. Nothin' to it w/ a 5'er! :-) >>>We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd >>>like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > spot that another camper was thinking would never happen. Nothin' to it w/ a > 5'er! :-) Have they improved the turning radius of the HD2500 4WD. I drove one with the crew cab and 8' bed, took a lot of turning to get that thing around the block. Are we talking GM or Ford, one normally indicates V-10 with the Ford or power stroke. My Ram turns inside my GMC by a good distance, the GMC is a 1500 94 model 2wd with extended cab, 6' bed and a 5.7ltr engine. SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog <<SNIPPED>> Never pulled it with less >> than a 2500HD 6.0L w/ 4.10 and now have a 2500HD w/ the 8.1L, Allison >> tranny, and 4.10. That's all in a crew cab LONG BOX 2500HD 4WD. She'll [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Ford or power stroke. My Ram turns inside my GMC by a good distance, the > GMC is a 1500 94 model 2wd with extended cab, 6' bed and a 5.7ltr engine. The turning radius of the crew cab long box does leave something to be desired. It swings wide! It is much easier to back into tight parking spots than to even think about pulling in! It is a Chevy w/ the 8.1L gas and Allison tranny. The turn radius on my original 2500HD Ext. cab short box was about the same as our 1500 Suburban. Had the slider hitch in the short box, but only slid it two times when I was getting used to it. The 5'er has the extended pin box on it. Just had to watch the absolute jack knife backing. Couldn't go much beyond ninety degrees. With the long box, it's not an issue. I hated the slider hitch as well for the extra bang it would give on stops and take offs. It was a Reese and had just enough give that it was annoying. Not only that, but that bang would cause one or two of the locking pins to pop their key or even, two times, come out of their slot!!! Talk about a HUGE safety issue!!! With the fixed legs, no bang on stops and take offs beyond the normal minor tug and never a loose anchor pin. Kevin >We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd >like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel trailers. >I'll be using at least a half ton pickup as a tow vehicle. ( i've yet to buy >the tow vehicle as well) Much more important than the decision b/n 5th wheel & TT is the new/used decision. Whatever you do, for your 1st rig do not buy new. You will almost certainly not get it "right" the first time. RVs depreciate extremely rapidly in the first 3 years of their life. If you buy something 5-10 years old you can have an enjoyable learning experience while you figure out what you really want. To you question - we have owned TTs, 5th wheels and now a bus conversion. Which one is best? It depends. The only way you will figure out which is best for you is by doing it. R.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) > We will hopefully be purchasing an rv in the not too distant future. I'd > like some feed back on the pros and cons of 5th wheels vs. travel [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. > thanks all 1/2 ton trucks won't pull crap, buy a real truck, get ya Dodge 3500 dually with the 610 turbo D... It'll yank anything around the globe. SignatureMoParMaN---Remove Clothes To Reply! --SCUD Coordinates 32.61204 North: 96.92993 West--
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