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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / December 2005Inverter installation
I think we need to get back to some constructive discussions and not turn a otherwise good discussion it to a heated one. Inverter installation sounds like a good subject considering the engineering phase of my project is almost like a deck of cards thrown in to the air. So now I think the better of the ideas is to have the 600watt inverter installed in the battery compartment with with a 20amp duplex mounted on the front of the 5er next to the landing gear control switch. Correct you would have to get outside to turn the inverter on, but you would have to any way to plug the shore power in. And I am thinking the idle power draw of 0.7amps is considered for the cooling fan, maybe. I have purchased a PVC box with a cap cover that will snap closed. The cover will be mounted on the outside with the box inside, cover mount screws extra long will go through the wall with a hole big enough for the duplex. I bought a 12/3 extension cord that will plug in to one of the recepticals of the inverter. It will be cut to required length to connect to the duplex mounted on the front. The RV shore power cord can be plugged in to the duplex by use of an adapter plug I always carry. The inverter will be screw mounter in the battery compartment, it remains detachable. With AGM batteries in use there is no gas produced making this safe. A battery disconnect switch will be installed on the AGM bank. According to the 7300 series pamphlet, the converter can operate with out a battery. Thus allows recharging by use of the Vector 1097. While operating on one of the Honda EU2000i generators or both of them as required.  SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME "William Boyd" <williamboyd@cableone.net> wrote snipped some Thanks for the particular details on this because I am working on a similar project, and I'm all for somebody else doing it first so I can see what happens <G> The outside plug -in would let you lock your compartment door instead of having the shore power line go straight to one of the inverter's outlets, so that is worth it for sure. > Correct you would have to get outside to turn the inverter on, but > you would have to any way to plug the shore power in. Some people have found a way to get to the wires of the inverter's on /off switch and run a line from there to inside the trailer to an on/ off switch they mounted somewhere, which they call a "remote switch" in their book. Our trailer has a "laundry hamper hatch" in the floor above the cargo bay. You can keep a basket down there and toss your laundry down into it. We don't do that, because we covered the floor there with a plastic carpet runner, but if the inverter were in the cargo bay, in reach from that hatch, you could operate it without going outside. And I am > thinking the idle power draw of 0.7amps is considered for the > cooling fan, maybe. That came up before ISTR. An RV book warns that that 1 amp draw from the inverter in stand-by is 24 amp hrs a day, which is a hell of a lot when you might figure on using say 50 amps a day total between daily battery charging episodes. That works out about right for a 200 amp hr battery bank cycling between "discharged" at 50% and recharging to "full" where full is defined as 75%, so your range is 25% of the 200 or 50 amp hrs. (at 77F, reduced to ~35 amp hrs at~35F AFAIK) believe) > A battery disconnect switch will be installed on the AGM bank. > According to the 7300 series pamphlet, the converter can operate > with out a battery. It does, except? the LP alarm, and maybe the radio clock that have their own battery connection. The DC stuff runs off the converter with no battery required. Of course you have to put a battery in for travelling for the trailer brakes if the emergency break-away brake switch pin is pulled out. > Thus allows recharging by use of the Vector 1097. > While operating on one of the Honda EU2000i generators or both of > them as required. When we can run the generator for battery charging, usually mid-day due to noise laws, I have been disconnecting the batteries, but having a switch would be good. When the generator is on, that's when we grab the opportunity to defrost things in the microwave for that night's meal. Regards, Barry > "William Boyd" <williamboyd@cableone.net> wrote > snipped some [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > so your range is 25% of the 200 or 50 amp hrs. (at 77F, reduced to ~35 amp > hrs at~35F AFAIK) believe) I suppose I could consider going in to the inverter and connecting a remote toggle switch to it. I also have the laundry hamper hatch, that is where I will consider running the remote wire up through. It is to far from where the batteries are to be of any direct use. >>A battery disconnect switch will be installed on the AGM bank. >>According to the 7300 series pamphlet, the converter can operate [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > required. Of course you have to put a battery in for travelling for the > trailer brakes if the emergency break-away brake switch pin is pulled out. Doubt that I would have shore power connected to the Honda generator while going down the road. >>Thus allows recharging by use of the Vector 1097. >>While operating on one of the Honda EU2000i generators or both of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Regards, > Barry SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > I suppose I could consider going in to the inverter and connecting a > remote toggle switch to it. New to me thought! If you can rig a battery disconnect switch as planned, why not also, instead of digging into the inverter to get at its on /off switch wiring, just put a disconnect switch ("remoted") in the inverter's wires to the battery bank? Regards, Barry >>I suppose I could consider going in to the inverter and connecting a >>remote toggle switch to it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Regards, > Barry You are talking about a high amp two way solenoid switch with a three wire control circuit with a double pole double throw switch in the place of a single pole toggle switch and a two wire low amp circuit. Not hardly the best way to go. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > You are talking about a high amp two way solenoid switch with a > three wire control circuit with a double pole double throw switch in > the place of a single pole toggle switch and a two wire low amp > circuit. Not hardly the best way to go. Yipes, ok. Another route up into the trailer might be like on ours, the bedroom wall has a small access panel to the back of the tub taps where the water hoses come up from the cargo bay. If you could slip a wire up with the water hoses you could bring it out through a notch cut in the access panel and mount the remote switch beside the panel wherever that tub access panel is in a Wildcat? Regards, Barry >>You are talking about a high amp two way solenoid switch with a >>three wire control circuit with a double pole double throw switch in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Regards, > Barry That is a good idea also, I have that access panel as well. But that panel is in the hall between the shower and vanity sink area. Your first idea about the laundry hatch is best. mine is located under the second shelf of the vanity sink. With plenty of room to mount a switch well out of the way. But to hitch hike off of the second idea about the water lines, rout the wire up along the pipes leading to the vanity sink rather than the laundry hole. I hope no one takes offense to my bluntness in these discussions, it's just the way I am. But good ideas can come from the most out of place thoughts. The term of "Hitch Hike" is a method of making some ideas become very valuable. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME snipped good info Bill mentioned taking his inverter set-up along to his next trailer, so my plan to cut a notch in the panel would not help with the re-sale value of this one. Using existing holes is better for sure Regards, Barry > snipped good info > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Regards, > Barry I have removed the end plate from the 600watt inverter. I found that the off/on switch is a low voltage thumb toggle. I can connect a pair of wires to the terminals on the back of the switch, run them out one of the vent holes and have remote capability. By leaving the switch on the inverter connected it allows me capability to turn the inverter on at the inverter. Of course both switches would have to be off for the inverter to be off. But if either one of the switches is on, then the inverter is on. I already have some three wire stranded control wires used for the TV antenna rotter installed in the barn. So all I need is a switch, I'll have to make another trip to Lowes for that. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME snip > the barn. > So all I need is a switch, I'll have to make another trip to Lowes > for that. I tried the "inverter- on- battery bank- outside" set up, and found out a couple handy things. First there are several important steps so a proper check- off list ought to be drawn up . These will vary with each trailer and how it works. Here is my list so far. Before putting the inverter clamps on battery bank- A. turn off the converter breaker B. turn off the microwave breaker (the clock lights up on AC even when the microwave is off) C. turn off the air conditioner breaker (the AC fan-auto/on will run on AC when the "system" is off, if the fan happens to be at "on". The 400w inverter will run the fan in "low" and blow its breaker in "hi"--makes loud noise till turned off and then on again) D. make sure fridge will not work on AC however you do that with your fridge. Clamp inverter to battery bank- A. turn on inverter, check readouts of DC volts in and AC voltage out B. plug in your shore power cable -check "watts being used" C. scamper back in trailer and make sure no AC lights are on D. try out the TV and stuff on AC E. Back outside, check the "watts being used" read-out on the inverter and calculate the DC amps and figure out how many amp hrs you think you have spare so you know how long you can afford to leave things running on the inverter. F. Set the alarm clock for when it's time to shut off the inverter. G. have a beer to settle your nerves Does anybody have more things that should be remembered? Thanks, Barry > snip > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > Thanks, > Barry Turn off Climate control in refrig if equipped. (get another beer while you have the door open) Turn off AC heater in water tank. Un plug any and all electronics, some have circuit heaters like the CRT televisions. The LCD TVs also has something drawing current, I am looking at mine, it is off but there is a little red light on. No don't get another beer just yet. You are going to have to see if the frig light goes out when the door is closed. You can get another beer then. ;-) SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > I think we need to get back to some constructive discussions and not > turn a otherwise good discussion it to a heated one. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > While operating on one of the Honda EU2000i generators or both of them > as required. Have not been following this thread so I don't have all the details. Likely when the inverter is idling, there is no need for the fan but the electronics will still be consuming power except for current needed for the output load. 700ma add up fairly quickly and is doing nothing useful for you. What I think I would do is mount the inverter close to the battery source as you've indicated but include a solenoid/relay to control the input power to the inverter. Run some small ga wiring into the rig and mount a switch to actuate the relay. When no power is needed and the relay switch is off, zero power is being consumed. As for the relay one could either use the typ constant duty automotive looking relay that is lass than $20 or spend a little more money and use a solid state relay. The advantage to the solid state one is it should use less power to keep it actuated. Saw a 70A SS relay on the net yesterday for something like $40. Mickey >> I think we need to get back to some constructive discussions and not >> turn a otherwise good discussion it to a heated one. [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Mickey I am hoping that when the switch on the inverter is off, all power is off. I should check that out before I rely on it. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME >>> I think we need to get back to some constructive discussions and not >>> turn a otherwise good discussion it to a heated one. [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > I am hoping that when the switch on the inverter is off, all power is > off. I should check that out before I rely on it. Well back to the drawing board. The inverter draws current even when the power switch is in the off position. Mickey, your idea has been floating around in this thread, but it draws power when the relay is activated. They make a flip/flop kind of relay, but the ones I have seen are quite large. This is a relay that when you activate power to it makes contacts come together then the relay no longer draws current until it is activated again. Manual battery cut off switch has it for now. Like I said you have to go outside to plug in the shore power so might as well turn off the DC power to the inverter too. But then that is another trip outside when you finish watching movies. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > Well back to the drawing board. The inverter draws current even when > the power switch is in the off position. On rv.net somebody asked today why his inverter sparked when he put it on the battery even though the inverter is off. The answer was that the inverter has some capacitors that load up initially. http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/16708171.cfm I am no electrician, but I wonder if the indication the inverter is drawing current when off and connected to the battery is related in some way to this sparking business. (maybe that sparking is why they are always saying never put it in with regular type batteries) My 400 watt inverter has the one button that you have to hold down for a time before the inverter comes on. Then that same button is a for selecting readouts of either DC volts in, watts being used , or AC voltage out. To turn it off you have to hold the button down and wait for a time before it shuts off. If you rigged a remote switch to the on/ off switch with that sort of delayed action to it, I don't know if it would really turn it off. Regards, Barry >>> Have not been following this thread so I don't have all the details. >>> Likely when the inverter is idling, there is no need for the fan but [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > power to the inverter too. But then that is another trip outside when > you finish watching movies. Yes a relay will take some power when in use but if you use a solid state model, you talking mA and not amps, certainly less than the 700 mA menioned earlier. The benefit of being able to turon on/off from inside has a lot of value especially if the weather is bad. Everyones need are not the same but I'd had to have to go outside to turn on/off something so I could run something inside. Son just bought a box of new small hi-current mech relays for $2 ea on E-bay. Can handle 40A @12V and only require a few mA to actuate. Mickey >>>> Have not been following this thread so I don't have all the details. >>>> Likely when the inverter is idling, there is no need for the fan but [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Mickey The lack of a relay for the DC + wire between the battery bank and inverter is no problem. I can manually disconnect it with the wing nut and upgrade with a standard battery disconnect switch, upgrade that with the remotely operated solid state relay later. Next step is install the duplex in the front bulkhead of the 5er. Forgot one important thing before doing the task. That was to press the send button. So now the update comes with the other crappie engineering. In short job finished! Switched entertainment center circuit to the GFI circuit breaker and GFI to be on the same one with the converter. With the duplex installed I have recepticals outside so not to much lost. I do use the water heater on AC a lot so had to keep it where it was, as well as the microwave either one with the 970watt draw of the converter would trip their circuit breaker. The entertainment center was on with the converter and that is the primary use of the inverter concept, had to get it off of that. In short when I turn off the converter to run the RV on inverter power, maybe I can do without the GFI outlets. One lesson learned, I shroud have used the pigtail adapter from the 20amp duplex to the 30amp shore power plug. It would have fit under the cap with out a little bit of router work on the cover plate that I had to do. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > One lesson learned, I shroud have used the pigtail adapter from the > 20amp duplex to the 30amp shore power plug. It would have fit under > the cap with out a little bit of router work on the cover plate that > I had to do. Yes, we have found our 30 to 15 adapter won't fit in a lot of the boxes that have 15 outlets where that is only what is available, so we learned to always have a short extension cord with the plug that goes straight out, not the sideways kind, to use from the adapter to any outlet set deep in a box. In case we ever get AGMs and can then put the inverter in with them, how does that work for inverter cooling? Apparently they need lots of fresh air--is that available in the battery compartment in the Wildcat? I am not sure it would be good in ours in the summer, or down south. Thanks, Barry > In case we ever get AGMs and can then put the inverter in with them, how > does that work for inverter cooling? Apparently they need lots of fresh [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks, > Barry The Wildcat does not have a battery compartment per say. The single battery was installed in a box with a hood and hose that ran out to a vent hole. The battery box was located in a relatively large compartment at the front of the basement area. This area has the landing gear that extends, one on each side and the motor for that as well as the hydraulic pump for the slide out. We are talking about an area that is about 70 cubic feet, and that is largely open to the rest of the basement of about 144 cubic feet. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME snipped Learned some more about inverter installation. Seems you are supposed to "twist" (overlay like a two- strand rope) the cables that go between the inverter and the battery to avoid radio/TV interference. By twisting them they cancel each other's fields. Not just your own TV but the trailer next door's . Didn't seem to bother our TV when using the cigarette connection or to batteries outside, but we have a small inverter and just used the short cables provided with it. I will twist them anyway from now on. We get a bit of TV interference when the furnace fan is running though. Some inverters that were around in 1995 have their standy- by "search for a load" set so that turning on a TV will not start the inverter, you have to start something else as well like an AC light, then when the inverter is up, you can turn the light off and the TV will stay on. Ours doesn't do that. Regards, Barry > Regards, > Barry That sounds interesting, I'll have to investigate that on my inverter installation. They call that RFI, Radio Frequency interference. Some appliances that have induction motors like the furnace, cause static waves on my TV but that I think is normal. I am located in mid Mississippi and it is to cold outside for my old joints or I would do it today. It is generator runup day though, so I've gotta get out some. I am a full timer in my RV, when it is at or below freezing I do the pink thing with the water, leaving me trotting between the RV and barn. The air conditioned barn has been equipped with all the support facilities that I need, like shower vanity, hot water, washer and dryer, dump station and more. That was a long previous project. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME |
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