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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / January 2006l Tow/Haul and ABS Questions
(Cross-posted ) Seeking advice on how to drive <G>. Have a 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 gas 4.10 (auto tran) towing a 26 foot fiver. (Weights are all good). I assume Fords and Dodges have equivalent to Tow/ Haul so this isn't just about Chevs, but don't know. Ok. The driver's manual says, when going down a hill, to shift down and let the engine help with not speeding up, to save you from braking too much, where "too much" is defined as heating up the brakes so they don't grip well anymore. The tow/haul does something or other with shift points when you are in Drive. I find it helps and mainly have it on all the time when towing the trailer. Except I am unclear if it means anything if you shift down to Third going downhill. I have been turning off Tow/Haul when in Third in case that makes it not really Third anymore, but sometimes I forget. Does Tow/Haul do anything good or bad to the effort to "use the engine" when you are out of Drive and in a selected lower gear? Going up a steep hill at low speed such as in a campground up a hill, sometimes I select Second instead of Drive. Does Tow/Haul still work then, or is it just for when in Drive? Related braking question. The ABS idea is to brake and leave your foot down and not pump the brakes. However, I have also seen advice for going down a long steep grade that it is better to crunch down and get her slowed right down and then let go and allow her to get back up to speed and then crunch down again as a way to give time for the brakes to cool between crunches. I think of this as "pumping the brakes" but this is way more than just how to approach a stop sign in town using ABS. So, assuming you have shifted down and done whatever the right thing is wrt Tow/haul, how should you brake--leave your foot down and let the ABS deal with cooling (if it will) or do the intermittent crunches? (I have been doing the latter, but not sure if correctly) Thanks, Barry "BF Lake" <nomail@nospam.com> wrote in (part): > The ABS idea is to brake and leave your foot down > and not pump the brakes. However, I have also seen advice for going down [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > or do the intermittent crunches? (I have been doing the latter, but not > sure if correctly) Do the "intermittent crunches." The ABS won't deal with cooling. It only activates when it senses that the wheels are rotating at different speeds. As long as it doesn't think a tire is beginning to skid, it won't do anything. The recommended method is what you call the "intermittent crunches." Apply the brakes rather firmly to slow to your selected upper speed, then (with the brakes not applied) allow the vehicle to speed up to the selected speed and again rather firmly apply the brakes to slow to the selected lower speed. You should use engine braking as the primary means of maintaining a proper downhill speed, and use the brakes as little as possible.  SignatureD.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762 dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com Used to tow our 32' 5'er w/ an '02 2500HD w/ the 6.0L and 4.10 rear, ext cab short box. Never any problems slowing it down. Just don't drag the brakes long distances. I use the Tekonsha Prodigy controller. The ABS only activates when it senses lockup happening on a wheel with the others still spinning. It has nothing at all to do with cooling the discs, etc. Now I tow the same 5'er w/ an '02 2500HD w/ the 8.1L and 4.10 rear, crew cab long box. It has the Allison tranny in it and the tranny itself senses a down slope and uses it's own brake to slow the rig down! VERY nice in the mountains of TN, etc. At times, you actually have to gas it a bit to keep from going to slow down hills. It also has a much lower reverse gear. Much stronger when pushing it backwards up a slope, etc. MPGs are lower, but the might makes up for it. When going up a steep hill at lower speeds, it should shift down where it needs to be on its own. Just push the pedal a bit more if you feel it laboring and it will drop down a gear. I always found towing in cruise control to be close to impossible with the 6.0L since it was constantly jumping back two gears when an incline came up. Not so with the 8.1L. > (Cross-posted ) > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Thanks, > Barry I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >(Cross-posted ) > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >forget. Does Tow/Haul do anything good or bad to the effort to "use the >engine" when you are out of Drive and in a selected lower gear? Always leave it in Tow/Haul. That tranny should keep downshifting as it slows to maintain. If it doesn't, pull it down a gear as rpms allow. Leave the tow/haul switch on. > Going up a steep hill at low speed such as in a campground up a hill, >sometimes I select Second instead of Drive. Does Tow/Haul still work then, >or is it just for when in Drive? Leave it in Drive with tow/haul on. Let the transmission decided which gear is best. Leave the tow/haul on. >Related braking question. The ABS idea is to brake and leave your foot down >and not pump the brakes. However, I have also seen advice for going down a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Thanks, >Barry Leave tow/haul on. Slow it down below the set speed, then downshift if necessary. If speed builds up again, use the brakes to slow down below your set speed. Leave tow/haul on. Oh, did I forget to mention, LEAVE THE TOW/HALL ON! SignatureFrank Tabor > (Cross-posted ) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Fords and Dodges have equivalent to Tow/ Haul so this isn't just about > Chevs, but don't know. Ok. Leave the trans. in Tow/Haul mode but manually shift out of OD (4th gear) back to 3rd. On a really steep grade you might even need to shift back to 2nd. The trans. in Tow/Haul mode is programmed to shift at different speeds (than regular mode) and it allows the trans. to "lock up" more frequently in order to reduce transmission overheating. In regular mode, on a hill, the transmission will be using the torque converter more (by not "locking up') and will create more heat. On downhill grades, the same thing happens, that is the transmission will be in "lock up" more of the time in the Tow/Haul mode and will result in better engine braking. Max "Max" <thesameoldme@sbcglobal.netnot> wrote in message news:88Btf.40709 > Leave the trans. in Tow/Haul mode but manually shift out of OD (4th gear) > back to 3rd. On a really steep grade you might even need to shift back to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > in "lock up" more of the time in the Tow/Haul mode and will result in better > engine braking. Ok, thanks. I wonder if that "locking up" is what the others meant by the transmission "braking"? I do notice shifting to third brings more engine slowing effect into play as you would expect, but have no clue about what the transmission does. I don't know if I have an Allison transmission or if it matters*. Does it do special tricks(?) *Is this one of those things where you always have to specify you have a Windsor 351 and not the Cleveland or your pals will say you are a girly man, as was the case some years ago? :) > Now I tow the same 5'er w/ an '02 2500HD w/ the 8.1L and 4.10 rear, crew cab > long box. It has the Allison tranny in it and the tranny itself senses a > down slope and uses it's own brake to slow the rig down! Frank mentions something like that? too: > Always leave it in Tow/Haul. That tranny should keep downshifting as > it slows to maintain. If it doesn't, pull it down a gear as rpms > allow. Leave the tow/haul switch on. Ok to clarify, please, what does "slows to maintain" refer to? Cruise control? I have not tried cruise control because if it is like my car's it would be useless on hills. I am confused about the idea that the transmission will shift down by itself if I am in Drive, going down hill while the truck keeps trying to speed up. Shifting to Third does help. (Except sometimes I forget to go back into Drive and continue along at 60mph in third. The truck doesn't seem to mind so it is easy to not notice you are still in third. --guess the designer had a spaz driver like me in mind! Thanks, Barry Nope, the tranny behind the 6.0L is NOT even close to an Alison! It DOES NOT brake speed like the Alison. As posted, I've driven and towed with both. Nothing compares to the Alison tranny. In the newer models they even allow you to go to fourth and lock out OD. The '02 does not do this. You tow in OD w/out concern as 3 is WAYYY to low for normal highway speeds. Using tow/haul w/ the 8.1L REALLY beats the MPGs to death! I mainly use t/h when in stop and go traffic to keep it from shifting up as fast. With the 6.0L I always had to use the tow/haul mode and like I said, could not use cruise control much especially when the air conditioning was on. The 6.0 will git 'er done, but it will just take more time. Try test driving an 8.1L and go down a good steep hill. Tap the brake once on the way down and feel it start slowing down. On a good enough hill, you can tap it again or a bit harder and it will drop lower. Sounds good to!!! :-) > "Max" <thesameoldme@sbcglobal.netnot> wrote in message news:88Btf.40709 > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > Thanks, > Barry > Nope, the tranny behind the 6.0L is NOT even close to an Allison! It DOES NOT > brake speed like the Allison. Well that explains why I haven't noticed anything. I couldn't figure what all this talk of OD and fourth gear was all about. snip good info on Allisons Thanks, Barry. >> Nope, the tranny behind the 6.0L is NOT even close to an Allison! It DOES > NOT [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks, > Barry. I think you have to have the 8.1L gasoline engine or the 6.6L diesel to get the (old) Allison 5 speed automatic or the (new) Allison 6 speed automatic. Ron > "Max" <thesameoldme@sbcglobal.netnot> wrote in message news:88Btf.40709 > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > Thanks, > Barry Your truck has a 4L80E transmission. It's a good, strong unit but not in a class with the Allison. The Allison is not only built to take more torque but has several other features, including the speed retard feature. The 4L80E does not have the "slows to maintain" feature. I have used the cruise control on my truck while towing but only when I was on flat terrain, no headwind, traveling at a constant speed without excess throttle, and only long enough to move my right leg around a bit. <G> I have a shop manual to refer to if you would like further explanations. Max >> "Max" <thesameoldme@sbcglobal.netnot> wrote in message news:88Btf.40709 >> [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Max Ford's new "Torqueshift" automatic really is a decent operating transmission. In tow/haul mode it will hold the upshifts longer, but does not lock out overdrive as the older Ford (and Dodge that still does) transmissions. The nicest thing though is it *does* automatically do the downshifts to add engine braking, much like the Allison transmissions do. If fact, I had a class A MH at one time with the Allison, and Ford's Torqueshift transmission acts very similarly. I just hope it earns the durability reputation that Allison has. Eisboch > (Cross-posted ) > > Seeking advice on how to drive <G>. Have a 2003 Chev 2500HD 6.0 gas 4.10 > (auto tran) towing a 26 foot fiver. (Weights are all good). I assume > Fords and Dodges have equivalent to Tow/ Haul so this isn't just about > Chevs, but don't know. Ok. Put it in tow/haul and leave it there. It's an automatic transmission. Let it work. On down-grades, your transmission should hold you back after you brake the first time. If it doesn't, downshift. If it still doesn't, slow and downshift again. If it still doesn't, slow and downshift again. If you rely upon your brakes to keep you alive on a downhill grade, they will let you down. Maybe not the first time, but sooner or later you will die. After a few downgrades, if you are still alive, you will know how much to slow, by looking at the grade. Lon > (Cross-posted ) > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > forget. Does Tow/Haul do anything good or bad to the effort to "use the > engine" when you are out of Drive and in a selected lower gear? The heavier a vehicle gets the maxim that you go down the hill in the gear that you would go up it becomes very true. Selecting the appropriate gear to go down the hill is a better option than relying upon brakes to continually slow you down. > Going up a steep hill at low speed such as in a campground up a hill, > sometimes I select Second instead of Drive. Does Tow/Haul still work then, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > or do the intermittent crunches? (I have been doing the latter, but not > sure if correctly) ABS does n't cool the brakes, in fact in a combination where the tow vehicle has ABS and the trailer does not have ABS fitted it will cause more feathuring of the ABS brakes. Under heavy braking the delay of brake application to the trailer can induce jack knife conditions - the trailer pushes the tow vehicle and even with ABS fitted can force the tow vehicle sideways. When ABS was first introduced by Mercedes back in the late 70s on their heavy trucks they had a spate of accidents as drivers thought that ABS would get them out of every bad driving decision. "Roger & Lorraine Martin" <rmar7344@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:nPBtf.155999$V7.63574@news- > ABS does n't cool the brakes, in fact in a combination where the tow vehicle > has ABS and the trailer does not have ABS fitted it will cause more > feathuring of the ABS brakes. Under heavy braking the delay of brake > application to the trailer can induce jack knife conditions - the trailer > pushes > the tow vehicle and even with ABS fitted can force the tow vehicle sideways. Oh, oh. More things to worry about! I have a brake controller (Tekonsha Voyager if that matters) which was "set-up" for pulling the trailer and it seems to work ok at stop signs--feels right--haven't noticed anything on hills/mountains either. (eg, did the Banff-Jasper bit last spring) Is there a special setting for when the TV has ABS? There is a little test you can do to check the delay and AFAIK nothing is wrong. Is there an extra test for if you have ABS? Thanks, Barry I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >"Roger & Lorraine Martin" <rmar7344@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message >news:nPBtf.155999$V7.63574@news- [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Thanks, >Barry Trailers don't have ABS. Even if it did, your Voyager wouldn't know how to understand it. SignatureFrank Tabor > I see where, BF Lake managed to write: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >the TV has ABS? There is a little test you can do to check the delay and > >AFAIK nothing is wrong. Is there an extra test for if you have ABS? > Trailers don't have ABS. Even if it did, your Voyager wouldn't know > how to understand it. Question arose from above, where the TV has ABS and the trailer doesn't. The extra braking of the ABS means the delay for the trailer brakes to come on is too long a delay--or something like that. So what do you do to compensate, if anything? Thanks, Barry I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >> I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >Thanks, >Barry Never had a problem. Your brake controller isn't a time delay. As soon as the brake lights come on, some power is applied to the trailer brakes. As the vehicle brakes slow the vehicle, the pendulum, (or the deaccelerometer) senses the slow down and ramps the voltage up to the trailer. ABS has nothing to do with it. That's how the OPs voyager works. If you have the Prodigy, as soon as the brake light switch is made, the preset boost voltage is applied to the trailer, then the pendulum swing applies any further voltage needed. The difference between the voyager and the Prodigy is that the Prodigy will decrease the voltage as the deaccleration decreases. The Voyager keeps the same voltage until the brakes are released. ABS has not control over when braking is applied to the trailer. SignatureFrank Tabor Answers own question, asks another! (below) > > ABS does n't cool the brakes, in fact in a combination where the tow > vehicle [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > the tow vehicle and even with ABS fitted can force the tow vehicle > sideways. > I have a brake controller (Tekonsha Voyager if that matters) which was... > Is there a special setting for when > the TV has ABS? There is a little test you can do to check the delay and > AFAIK nothing is wrong. Is there an extra test for if you have ABS? The Tekonsha Voyager booklet says it "minimizes interference with other vital electronic functions such as anti-lock braking systems or cruise control" , and "when driving on steep grades, the sensor may need to be adjusted to a less aggressive position" (by that they mean introduce more delay so the trailer brakes won't grab and "overpower" the TV.) New question! Here more delay is wanted, than "normal" but the question arose , above, from the TV's ABS stopping the TV too fast for the trailer?? so it pushes on the TV. What is the actual sequence here? Does "grabbing" mean the trailer will slide or jacknife or is it from the trailer's brakes not coming on soon enough that would cause that? I am lost! What "delay" is the subject here? Is it two different "delays"? Thanks, Barry I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >Answers own question, asks another! (below) > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >aggressive position" (by that they mean introduce more delay so the >trailer brakes won't grab and "overpower" the TV.) No. It means to decrease the amount of braking. Never change the delay. Leave the delay set as close to zero as possible. >New question! Here more delay is wanted, than "normal" but the question >arose , above, from the TV's ABS stopping the TV too fast for the trailer?? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Thanks, >Barry Forget about delay. You should keep the delay to a very minimum. What you need to adjust it the amount of braking applied to the trailer. After you have adjusted the level setting, drive the rig around a parking lot about 25 mph. Adjust the "gain" until when you apply full brakes to the trailer with the manual lever, the trailer brakes slide the tires. The back off just a touch. I don't know why they put a delay on there. You need trailer braking just as soon as the tow vehicle brakes are needed. You should probably get rid of that voyager and get the Prodigy. It's the best "proportional" electronic brake controller out there. The only one better is the Jordan. It gets mixed reviews because the cable going to the brake pedal often times needs to be readjusted. SignatureFrank Tabor (cross-posted) > > "when driving on steep grades, the sensor may need to be adjusted to a less > >aggressive position" (by that they mean introduce more delay so the > >trailer brakes won't grab and "overpower" the TV.) > > No. It means to decrease the amount of braking. Never change the > delay. Leave the delay set as close to zero as possible. Arggh! The booklet says, when setting up adjusting, "If on the other hand you feel the trailer tending to push you the level setting is a little too delayed, to correct this...." I think they mean the inertia. The "level adjustment determines how aggressive or delayed the trailer braking will be." > Forget about delay. You should keep the delay to a very minimum. What > you need to adjust it the amount of braking applied to the trailer. see above for "delay" in Tekonsha -speak. > I don't know why they put a delay on there. You need trailer braking > just as soon as the tow vehicle brakes are needed. > > You should probably get rid of that voyager and get the Prodigy. It's > the best "proportional" electronic brake controller out there. I'm not sure there is a problem with the one I've got, but thanks for the tip in case I need to upgrade. (Hey , maybe if I get a fancier brake controller I won't feel so bad about having the "girly transmission" instead of the Allison <G>) Regards, Barry > (cross-posted) > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Regards, > Barry I had a Voyager. I never could get it adjusted to where I felt it was "right". I bought a Prodigy; works great. Max "Max" <thesameoldme@sbcglobal.netnot> wrote in message news:WGFtf.40578> >> > > I'm not sure there is a problem with the one I've got, but thanks for the > > tip in case I need to upgrade. (Hey , maybe if I get a fancier brake > > controller I won't feel so bad about having the "girly transmission" > > instead > > of the Allison <G>) > I had a Voyager. I never could get it adjusted to where I felt it was > "right". I bought a Prodigy; works great. Bugger! Well I have a Norcold fridge instead of a crumby Dometic, so does that make up for things? :) Happy New Year, Barry snipped > Bugger! Well I have a Norcold fridge instead of a crumby Dometic, so does > that make up for things? :) > > Happy New Year, > Barry I've got a Norcold fridge and would trade it in a heartbeat for a Dometic. New boards are expensive and ours ices up the cooling fins. The ac heater switch sticks and triggers a fault switching the fridge to gas. Last year the cooling unit died. We've had several Dometics and had a problem with only one. The boards, both main and eyebrow, went bad and a simple $89 Dinosaur board fixed the problem. We also have a Voyager brake controller which performs quite well. Once it is set properly, I don't have to touch the controls. Hugh > We also have a Voyager brake controller which performs quite > well. Once it is set properly, I don't have to touch the > controls. It seems whatever equipment you have, somebody has better. (I was kidding about the fridge brands unless a war could be started on fridges, same as Chevs vs Fords to displace the political threads <G>) Normally I figure if what you've got is "good enough" then get your money's worth before upgrading. In the case of Voyager vs Prodigy, it seems there are meaningful improvements eg, in the "reverse" feature (which I am confused about) that could justify an upgrade. It's not that clear when your Voyager has been giving good service so far including in the Rockies and in the State of Jefferson (home of Moodonna), where there are one or two hills.. I'm thinking a Prodigy is worth ~two fill-ups of gas so it is tempting to just go for it. Needs to jell a bit. I never heard of a Prodigy until yesterday! Regards, Barry snipped > confused about) that could justify an upgrade. It's not that clear when your > Voyager has been giving good service so far including in the Rockies and in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Regards, > Barry Truthfully, we've never towed in real mountains, just some pretty good hills. Hugh > I'm not sure there is a problem with the one I've got, but thanks > for the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > instead > of the Allison <G>) If you don't upgrade to a better controller, you may soon need a complete new truck & RV. Incomplete brakes are the worst thing to be confronted with in a panic stop. I know, you drive good, but it's the nut coming out of the side street or running the traffic light that you have to be prepared for. Either get the Prodigy or the Jordan, but get a real brake controller. Tom J >. Either get the Prodigy or the Jordan, but > get a real brake controller. Ok, I read the brake controller FAQ on RV.NET so now have a better idea what you guys are saying. Never even suspected my Voyager was made obsolete by the Prodigy. Thanks for the tip. Happy New Year, Barry I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >>. Either get the Prodigy or the Jordan, but >> get a real brake controller. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Happy New Year, >Barry The problem is that the Voyager is, what, $40 cheaper than the Prodigy. Folks jump right on that. Trouble is, you get what you pay for. SignatureFrank Tabor > The problem is that the Voyager is, what, $40 cheaper than the > Prodigy. Folks jump right on that. Trouble is, you get what you pay > for. Perhaps I am more typical in that when we got the trailer, as newbies, the RV dealer took our truck in hand (it had a towing package from new) and organized a hitch and a brake controller. We were not asked if we wanted this or that kind. We had faith. We have been happy with the hitch, controller, and trailer ever since. Now I see that we could have had the Prodigy from the start? (Oct 03) , but it was never on offer. First I ever heard about Prodigy was yesterday. Regards, Barry Regards, Barry I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >> The problem is that the Voyager is, what, $40 cheaper than the >> Prodigy. Folks jump right on that. Trouble is, you get what you pay [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Prodigy from the start? (Oct 03) , but it was never on offer. First I ever >heard about Prodigy was yesterday. Maybe not in your case, but this wouldn't be a dealer that would tell the driver of the half ton pickup that his truck would pull anything on the lot? I have a friend who is a RV dealer and has fired more than one salesman for telling a customer that. SignatureFrank Tabor > Maybe not in your case, but this wouldn't be a dealer that would tell > the driver of the half ton pickup that his truck would pull anything > on the lot? Actually it is interesting at this dealer "back then" (they have changed management and now things are much better) there was a division between the sales office and the poor beleaguered work shop. The sales people were the usual sort <G> but the techs were/ are first class except there aren't enough of them. Customers wanting warranty work done sometimes have to wait in line while the techs prep new trailers that have just been sold. Gets sort of hectic. The tech superviser is the guy who makes it all work, like an RSM in the army. He has to stand up to the sales manager at times plus schedule the work among too few people plus deal patiently with irate customers wanting their new trailer fixed because the factory screwed up. "Return business" or "referrals" to that RV dealer instead of the other ones down the street really depends on the quality of this guy who runs the repair shop it seems. > I have a friend who is a RV dealer and has fired more than one > salesman for telling a customer that. It seems to be a tough business. They have to be careful not to buy too many trailers that just sit there before being sold, and they have to keep the number of techs down too. So the techs are always behind, but if they get "too far" (as defined somehow) behind, they hire another tech--but they have to make sure he is competent or he could create more work than he does-- Meanwhile, they are trying to figure out which brands of which sizes and classes of RV to have on hand, etc. Not for the faint of heart IMO. Regards, Barry > I see where, BF Lake managed to write: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I have a friend who is a RV dealer and has fired more than one > salesman for telling a customer that. There is nothing wrong with the Voyager, has been a good reliable controller for several years. I have had one on the last three tow vehicles with no problems encountered. The Prodigy is of newer technology with the automatic electronic leveling device. But it basically works the same way as the rest of the electronic controllers do. And is an all around better controller, but by no means does it do the job of breaking the load any better. With the older systems you just have to know a little more about what you are doing. Voyager=$79.95 Prodigy=$139.95 SignatureBILL P. 2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram, SLT, SWB, 2WD, 5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans, Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner, Husky 16K. Voyager Controller 2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi. Dual EU2000i Hondas Just Me and Dog I see where, William Boyd managed to write: >> I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Voyager=$79.95 >Prodigy=$139.95 You obviously don't have the Prodigy. There is a night and day difference. The Prodigy mimics the old type of controller that connected to the brake line. It's as close to true proportional braking as you can get. The only way to get the Voyager to release it's brakes is to take your foot off the brake. Not so with the Prodigy. The braking voltage is controlled by the actual deceleration of the vehicle. Not some preprogrammed ramp. The Voyager is by no means a proportional braking system. SignatureFrank Tabor > The Voyager is by no means a proportional braking system. It is apparent that the manufacturer disagrees with you, Frank. All of their brake controllers are listed under a Proportional Brake Controllers banner. http://www.tekonsha.com/product1.html Proportional means that the controller applies voltage to the brake magnets proportionate to the rate of braking. This contrasts with cheaper, less-capable, "timer-based" controllers. :) JR I see where, Jim Redelfs managed to write: >> The Voyager is by no means a proportional braking system. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > :) >JR Doesn't matter what they print, what matters is what they do. The Voyager isn't proportional because if you reduce the amount of braking the Voyager doesn't reduce the voltage to the brakes. The only way to reduce the voltage to the brakes is release the brake. The Prodigy raises and lowers the voltage according to deceleration. As it gets less the voltage drops accordingly. You must be another one that has never used a Prodigy. If you had you would never compare the Voyager to the Prodigy. SignatureFrank Tabor > You must be another one that has never used a Prodigy. If you had > you > would never compare the Voyager to the Prodigy. The problem is, many of the people pulling trailers, including 5th wheels, didn't start towing until after the brake controllers that hooked into the hydraulic line were banned. Therefore they don't have a clue how the braking should really work. They don't know the total rig should stop in the same fashion and distance as the tow vehicle alone. That's the reason so many just don't realize they have an inferior controller. Tom J I see where, Tom J managed to write: >> You must be another one that has never used a Prodigy. If you had >> you [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Tom J That's true. I have some slack in my fifth wheel hitch. Between the clamps around the pin, the pivots for the head and a tiny bit in the pins in the bed, if I don't adjust my controller correctly, every time I hit the brakes, it bangs and bumps. Correctly adjusted, I never feel or hear the trailer. It just quietly comes to a halt as one unit. Plus, when I take my foot off the brake, I don't get that sudden push from the trailer brakes releasing. They have already dropped back to the bare minimum and allowed any push or drag to equalize. SignatureFrank Tabor I see where "Tom J" <tomnews@earthlink.net> contributed: >The problem is, many of the people pulling trailers, including 5th >wheels, didn't start towing until after the brake controllers that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >alone. That's the reason so many just don't realize they have an >inferior controller. Good analysis. There is only ONE modern type of controller that even approximates the performance of the old Kelsey/Hayes type Tom refers to: that would be a pedal-mounted load cell system. All other systems depend at least in part to decel intertia, time, brake pedal position, and stop switch operation (to varying degrees depending on type). Many are rated "good enough" by owners, but true coordination of brakes on towed combinations is pretty much impractical due to technical problems nobody has fully conquered to my knowledge. Even the good old KH hydraulically-actuated controllers (and modern load cell imitators) cannot acheive the best performance theoretically possible. Which would be what Tom describes above. Until/unles someone perfects a reliable combination ABS system, those towing trailers cannot expect excellent brake coordination. Free advice: ALWAYS drive your rig as though you expect your trailer brakes to be ineffective. you may never experience complete trailer brake failure, but having it happen ONCE can really make yer navel pucker. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > I see where, Jim Redelfs managed to write: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > You must be another one that has never used a Prodigy. If you had you > would never compare the Voyager to the Prodigy. Unless I am badly wrong, all Tekonsha controllers (Prodigy, Voyager, Primus, Sentinel, and Envoy) are proportional and vary the voltage according to deceleration. I have the Prodigy but have had others and they all use basically the same setup for adjustment. I think the major difference is that Prodigy has the boost feature and automatic level adjustment. I see where, Rich256 managed to write: >> I see where, Jim Redelfs managed to write: >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >basically the same setup for adjustment. I think the major difference is >that Prodigy has the boost feature and automatic level adjustment. Unless they made some major product changes in the last 6 months, I don't think so. SignatureFrank Tabor snipped > Unless they made some major product changes in the last 6 months, I > don't think so. After going to Tekonsha's web site, I see you're correct. The top two proportional controllers apply voltage proportionally but also release the same. The Voyager on down don't. Hugh > snipped > > Unless they made some major product changes in the last 6 months, I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > proportionally but also release the same. The Voyager on > down don't. The booklet for the Voyager 9030 says that it is an "inertia activated control", that the "automatic response (brake pedal) is initiated and terminated via the stoplight switch. When the brake pedal is released, trailer braking will cease." When Level and Gain are set correctly "you should feel a unified braking event between tow vehicle and trailer", "Once gain setting has been made that setting should not be changed until such time as the road conditions or towing weight has changed" , and "Braking response is the result of the level setting either too aggressive or too delayed." So within a "setting" there is no change to the degree of braking, so it is not a "proportional" type. In the discussion here there may be some confusion in terms for the braking feel? There is the question of a non-unified event where the trailer brakes come on either too soon or too late getting mixed up with whether the trailer is braking too hard or not enough compared with the truck? ie, if the pin clashes in a loose hitch on coming to a stop, is that from a mis-timing in response, or from not having enough squeeze on the trailer's brakes? (BTW our hitch has an adjustment screw for stopping that pin clash business; I don't know how other hitches work though) Regards, Barry I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >> snipped >> > Unless they made some major product changes in the last 6 months, I [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Regards, >Barry I'm not sure this will answer your question or not, but here goes. On the Prodigy, you can set an additional setting, which is boost. This applies a fixed set voltage to the brakes as soon as the brake light switch makes, even if the inertial switch doesn't sense any change. There are four settings, none, and 3 progressively higher settings. The literature suggests settings according to trailer size. I have a 35' fiver that weighs every bit of 13k, so I use the highest setting. When this comes on, I normally don't fee any hitch clash. Only if I have the total braking voltage set too low. Then the truck tends to try to stop the trailer. This isn't because the brakes don't come on fast enough, it's because there's not enough brake coming on. I kind of wish you would get away from trying to figure whether trailer brakes should be first, last or whatever. Trailer brakes should come on the instant your brake lights go on, and depending on the inertia change, the voltage should ramp up accordingly. If your trailer brakes don't come on when you apply the brakes, then the trailer is going to give you a shove. Especially with hard braking. Pin clash is caused by the trailer taking up any slack that is in the hitch. It's normal to hear it on take off. If you are hearing a lot of pin clash, or hitch clash on braking, then it means your trailer brakes may be set too high or too low. You have to determine whether it's form push or pull. If it's push, not enough (aggressive) enough trailer braking. I it pulling, reduce the gain a bit. Again, forget about timing. Trailer brakes should come on instantly. the amount of braking controlled by the gain and the inertia control. SignatureFrank Tabor . > I'm not sure this will answer your question or not, but here goes. snip good stuff Yes that helps a lot, thanks for taking the trouble to explain it. Regards, Barry I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >. >> I'm not sure this will answer your question or not, but here goes. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Regards, >Barry Scairdest I've ever been. Dad had a '69 Mercury Montego with the towing package. Car had a 351 engine, C6 tranny and a Kelsey-Hayes brake controller. Trailer was a 21' Shasta. Probably way too much trailer. It was a '65 model. Freezing rain, going over the mountains to the hunting camp in Western VA. Coming down the back side the road got extremely slick. It didn't matter what you did with the brakes, manually or with the brake pedal, the trailer would break loose and try to pass the car. It was an overall 12% grade with switchbacks. Pulled the transmission down to 2nd and fought between pumping the car brakes and working the manual lever I finally got the car down the mountain to a place to pull over and get it stopped. It stopped with the trailer jack-knifed against the bumper. The only damage was to my shorts. There was no salvaging them. I sat there the rest of the night and in the am a salt truck came down the mountain and I followed him down. I vowed to never get in that situation again. SignatureFrank Tabor > I see where, BF Lake managed to write: > [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > Again, forget about timing. Trailer brakes should come on instantly. > the amount of braking controlled by the gain and the inertia control. None of the controllers will react immediately. All of the Tekonsha controllers apply voltage to the brakes in proportion to how fast you are stopping. That applies all the time. As the vehicle slows the power to the brakes is less. The amount of voltage applied throughout the range is a function of the gain setting. Heavier trailers need more brakes so they need a higher gain setting. The boost setting is at best a guess but it does get applied immediately before the deceleration is detected.. It applies a percentage of the voltage. The controllers with the cable to the brake pedal may win out in that area. They apply a voltage in proportion to how far down the pedal is. The boost voltage I think is the same regardless of how fast you are stopping. It is only there for a very short time and then goes back to what ever the sensor is measuring for the rate of deceleration. As I remember all the Tekonsha controllers use basically the same method of setting the gain. Get going something like 25 mph, apply the brakes and adjust the gain so you don't notice the trailer is neither pushing or pulling.. At other speeds it may well be pulling or pushing but hopefully it will be close. With the boost applied it will usually initally pull a bit. Come to think of it that is a good idea as it might help straighten out a sway problem. Regardless they are all superior to those old time based controllers. Set for highway speeds, the trailer brakes will lock up when you are lightly applying brakes at slow speeds such as approaching a stop light. I see where, Rich256 managed to write: >As I remember all the Tekonsha controllers use basically the same method of >setting the gain. Get going something like 25 mph, apply the brakes and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >bit. Come to think of it that is a good idea as it might help straighten >out a sway problem. At 25, apply the manual trailer brake until the trailer slides, then back off just a touch until they don't slide. From the setup instructions. On any but the Prodigy I always found that this was way too aggressive at city speeds in traffic and I always lowered it. Back on the highway, crank it back up. SignatureFrank Tabor > I see where, Rich256 managed to write: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > at city speeds in traffic and I always lowered it. Back on the > highway, crank it back up. That is the same instruction as used for all Tekonsha controllers. > None of the controllers will react immediately. Have you ever towed with a Jordan Brake Controller? If you had, you would know there is such a controller. I have used this controller for 5 years without an adjustment of any kind since the 1st week of use. That's at all speeds and all kinds of braking in all kind of weather, from light to panic stopping when someone pulled in front of me. That said, many people have problems with the cable slipping in the clamps and needing adjusting. I made a clamp that let the cable go through but held the cable casing (outer cover) so mine has stayed put. I did that in the 1st week of use. The Jordan will cost $145 delivered: http://www.jordanbrake.com/ I know many people that are happy with many different models from different manufacturers, but after trying others since the old "hook to the master cylinder" models, this was my last one to buy. SignatureTom J http://www.fleetwoodclub.org/ Tom J wrote: >>None of the controllers will react immediately. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > different manufacturers, but after trying others since the old "hook > to the master cylinder" models, this was my last one to buy. Oh Yes! I remember buying an old Ford truck with one of those on it. As I remember It worked real good. But I was accustomed to air brakes and thought nothing about it as they worked about like them. I thought it was old technology so when I bought a replacement for it, a 0ne ton duelie I had the going thing in controllers installed, the Voyager. Never seen that much difference in it after getting the Voyager properly adjusted. Like I have said before, as long as you make all the proper adjustments they are all about the same, they stop the rig. None of them outdated or makes the others obsolete, some will sound better, depends on how much money you shelled out. OH! That is for radios, isn't it. The consensus of opinion here is that who ever spent the most money on his controller must have the best one. (to him). And it might be true, but that doesn't mean that other moneys were not well spent. :-) But now if you are relying on a chain with an anchor to throw out the window when all else fails, I would opt for the parachute. ;-) SignatureBILL P. Just Me and Dog >That said, many people have problems with the cable slipping in the >clamps and needing adjusting. I made a clamp that let the cable go >through but held the cable casing (outer cover) so mine has stayed >put. I did that in the 1st week of use.> Next time I see you Tom will you do that to mine please? It disconnected once in Vermont and I had to push the button all the way to Florida to brake the trailer. Hunter -- http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!" >>That said, many people have problems with the cable slipping in the >>clamps and needing adjusting. I made a clamp that let the cable go [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Hunter I just took a small plated L bracket & cut 1 end to about 1/2 inch, drilled a hole slightly larger than the braided part of the cable in that short end that lined up with the cable when bolted up. It replaced the original cable clamp bracket under the dash or wherever that is straight out from where the control module fastens to the brake pedal arm. I drilled a new hole in the other side of the bracket to match up with the original bracket clamp when the hole in the plate was against the end of the cable casing. The screw that came with mine was long enough to use with the modification. then the other side was bent to match the original and the mounting holes drilled. I didn't use any of the original holes in the bracket. I know you can do it - I have helped! The bracket I used is similar to this: http://www.dlawlesshardware.com/b10-corner.html Here is a photo of the controller that shows where I describe putting the bracket, but I don't have any photos of the actual modification. http://www.jordanbrake.com/LARGE-SCHEM.html SignatureTom J http://www.fleetwoodclub.org/ >Here is a photo of the controller that shows where I describe putting >the bracket, but I don't have any photos of the actual modification. >http://www.jordanbrake.com/LARGE-SCHEM.html Thanks Tom! When I'm awake I'll try to absorb all that <g> Hunter -- http://members.aol.com/hhamp5246/roadtrip2005.htm Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy sh.t...what a ride!" I see where, Tom J managed to write: >> None of the controllers will react immediately. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >different manufacturers, but after trying others since the old "hook >to the master cylinder" models, this was my last one to buy. One of the main reasons I didn't try to discuss the Jordan is because I've never towed with one, so I can't comment on how well it does or doesn't work. The only bad comments I've ever heard is the one you just gave about the cable slipping. SignatureFrank Tabor > Perhaps I am more typical in that when we got the trailer, as newbies, the > RV dealer took our truck in hand (it had a towing package from new) and > organized a hitch and a brake controller. Since they installed a Tekonsha Voyager you are NOT typical. My experience is that most dealers install the cheaper timer-based controllers marketed by Draw Tite and Reese, among others. Your Voyager is a fine controller. Until you change tow vehicles or the Voyager dies, an upgrade would probably not be worth the expense. http://www.tekonsha.com/tevoyagerintro.html I bought the Sentinel in May, 2000. It's a good one, too. > We have been happy with the hitch, controller, and trailer ever since. Count your blessings and don't change a thing. > Now I see that we could have had the Prodigy from the start? (Oct 03), > but it was never on offer. First I ever heard about Prodigy was yesterday. ...and the Prodigy is "old news" now. You aren't missing much, if anything. :) JR "Jim Redelfs" <jim.redelfs@redelfs.com> wrote in message news:jim.redelfs- > Your Voyager is a fine controller. Until you change tow vehicles or the > Voyager dies, an upgrade would probably not be worth the expense. I have been trying to understand why some people see a big difference in the Prodigy compared with the Voyager and others don't. Here is a premise for you guys to consider: Size Matters. Let us take the same truck and try two different trailers. The truck weighs 7,000 lbs and has a GVWR of 9,000 lbs. Its brakes are assumed to be capable of stopping the truck fully loaded plus an extra 2,000 lbs (the amount over which a loaded trailer must have its own brakes, according to the driver's manual) So the truck's brakes are good to 11,000 lbs. GCWR is 22,000 lbs so say your trailer weighs either 9,500 or 15,000 lbs. So: A. CW =16,500 "overage" (beyond 11K lbs) trailer brakes must do =5,500 lbs (overage of 50%) B. CW=22,000 overage =11,000lbs (overage of 100%) So if the brake controller is not quite at the right setting for a "unified stop" then the driver in B would "feel" it twice as much as the driver in A.? So if driver A has a Voyager he can live with it being a little off, but driver B would really notice the improvement if he upgraded to a Prodigy? Regards, Barry > "Jim Redelfs" <jim.redelfs@redelfs.com> wrote in message news:jim.redelfs- > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Regards, > Barry I think I got lost, but what you are saying is that the Prodigy will cover your error where the Voyager you have to know more about what you are doing. Did I get it right? Because the size of the load has nothing to do with the braking sequence. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > I think I got lost, but what you are saying is that the Prodigy will > cover your error where the Voyager you have to know more about what you > are doing. Did I get it right? Because the size of the load has nothing > to do with the braking sequence. The "overage" idea seemed like a good way to express it at the time <G> How about-- I am assuming if the Voyager setting were perfect, there would be no trailer effect on the truck, but if eg, the gain setting were off by a bit, (some small angle clockwise or counter clockwise) then that would be felt as a pull or push, by a corresponding percentage to that angle, of the trailer's weight that was getting braked too much or not enough. That percentage would be twice the weight with the bigger trailer, for the same angle you are off on the gain setting knob. (this assumes the missing or added squeeze on the big trailer's brakes is proportionally bigger than the missing or added squeeze to the smaller trailer's and proportional rubber on the road etc so it is letting through or holding back twice as much braking weight) It just seems to me that if the trailer is smaller in proportion to the truck that you won't feel it as much if the trailer's braking is not perfectly "unified" as when the trailer is big in proportion to the truck, so you would not be fiddling with the controller with the smaller trailer, because you can't feel anything is wrong, so you would think the Voyager is just fine as is, even if you are going down a mountain and it was set when on the flat. If you had the bigger trailer you would really feel the amount it is "off" and be trying to adjust it so you would prefer the Prodigy. ?? Regards, Barry > > I think I got lost, but what you are saying is that the Prodigy will > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Regards, > Barry I can understand that and accept it. Back to my original comment about the Prodigy, it is an all around better controller as I said. But one might go out and buy another gun, fishing rod or golf club when a new model hit the market, but brake controller I'm afraid not. Just have to delay the purchase until replacement time comes, until then I'll just keep the anchor and chain close to the window or adjust the old Voyager correctly to begin with. By the way I do leave the controllers on my tow vehicles when I upgrade. Another thought, I think the wiring harness is the same for both controllers. All you would have to do is mount the new one and plug it in. SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME > > > I think I got lost, but what you are saying is that the Prodigy will > > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Another thought, I think the wiring harness is the same for both > controllers. All you would have to do is mount the new one and plug it in. In normal use I doubt that you would note any difference between any of the Tekonsha controllers. The main difference being the number of brakes they can control. Basically I think the Prodigy is the same unit as the Voyager and Sentinel, with a different display and the addition of boost, auto level, and proportional braking in reverse. I like the Prodigy display where it shows the voltage reading being applied to the brakes instead of changing lights. Primus is the same except 3 axle instead of 4 Envoy is 2 axle > I can understand that and accept it. Back to my original comment about > the Prodigy, it is an all around better controller as I said. But one [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Another thought, I think the wiring harness is the same for both > controllers. All you would have to do is mount the new one and plug it in. I need more input from the experts to be sure, but there has to be a reason why I have not felt anything wrong when braking even down steep hills, even though I have not touched my Voyager since it was first set up on the flat over a year ago. I just look to see it makes the usual sort of orangey-reddish colour when braking and I assume it is still good. Maybe I am such a spaz that I don't notice anything wrong or there isn't anything wrong. It certainly takes longer to get stopped with the trailer than just with the truck by itself, but there is no feeling things aren't smooth. If this makes sense, then upgrading for me would be casting pearls before swine <G> Regards, Barry >>I can understand that and accept it. Back to my original comment about >>the Prodigy, it is an all around better controller as I said. But one [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Regards, > Barry I think I hear an echo in here! ;-) SignatureBILL P. Just Dog & ME I see where, BF Lake managed to write: >"Jim Redelfs" <jim.redelfs@redelfs.com> wrote in message news:jim.redelfs- >> Your Voyager is a fine controller. Until you change tow vehicles or the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Regards, >Barry I think what I would feel with the larger trailer with the Voyager is that initially, I would feel like maybe the trailer wasn't doing enough on it's own initially. I say this, because the Prodigy, instead of waiting for the inertia sensor to tell it to start ramping up, it will start with a "boost" of up to half the voltage available, 6.75 volts, then start the variable voltage. The Voyager will start with 0 volts and then ramp up as the inertia calls for it. Under light braking conditions you may not feel any push at all from the Voyager, and providing you have the settings right, it will probably do fine. Where you will feel the difference is with the larger trailer and hard stops. But not twice or any other specific difference. It will be more in the seat of the pants feelings that tell you what is going on. I'm not advocating that you run right out and buy the Prodigy. If the Voyager seems to be doing a good job for you and you are comfortable with it, keep it. The Prodigy is not $135 better than the Voyager. It is a measurable amount of better and if I had to choose which one from scratch, the Prodigy is worth the difference in price. Bottom line is what you are comfortable with. Just keep in mind that there is a better alternative out there. SignatureFrank Tabor >I have been trying to understand why some people see a big difference in the >Prodigy compared with the Voyager and others don't. Here is a premise for >you guys to consider: Size Matters. I think it is very simple; those who haven't towed with a better controller than the Voyager think it is okay. We just got used to the stupid thing not being quite right in the cold, and having to futz with it all the time. The prodigy hasn't been touched other than to tighten the mounting screws since it was installed, and it works better than the voyager ever did. Frankly, it is beyond my comprehension why anyone would buy an expensive new truck or trailer and use a piece of junk voyager on it. Yes, there are worse piece of junk controllers out there, but the voyager isn't that great either. > "when driving on steep grades, the sensor may need to be adjusted to a less > aggressive position" (by that they mean introduce more delay so the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > not coming on soon enough that would cause that? I am lost! What "delay" > is the subject here? Is it two different "delays"? It's trying to tell you that if you don't back the trailer brakes off a little on long downhill grades, you will smoke the trailer brakes. Same as your truck brakes. The controller, because of the downhill slant, will apply the trailer brakes more than is ideal when you are going downhill. Translation. USE THE ENGINE and TRANSMISSION to slow your descent. Lon |
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