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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / January 2006

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Grand Am for pulling

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Gene - 15 Jan 2006 03:05 GMT
OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...

Yep, have trailer hookup installed..tow weight rated 3250.

I was looking at a 13 foot trailer..Is that too much trailer?
Thoran Walker - 15 Jan 2006 03:14 GMT
you may be able to tow a small boat or maybe a tent on a small utility
trailer but nothing more.

Its not too much trailer.  its not enough capability

you should get a real suv/truck to tow with....

> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>
> Yep, have trailer hookup installed..tow weight rated 3250.
>
> I was looking at a 13 foot trailer..Is that too much trailer?
Gene - 15 Jan 2006 05:15 GMT
>you may be able to tow a small boat or maybe a tent on a small utility
>trailer but nothing more.
>
>Its not too much trailer.  its not enough capability
>
>you should get a real suv/truck to tow with....

 Well, not able to afford the $3k-5K to get a "Real" Truck/Suv, I
kind of have to go with what I have...You understand?

 But still, wondering that does a 13' weighing more then 3000 pounds?

Seems a tad much for it..But hey, not the expert here
Peter Pan - 15 Jan 2006 07:17 GMT
>> you may be able to tow a small boat or maybe a tent on a small
>> utility trailer but nothing more.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Seems a tad much for it..But hey, not the expert here

Actually there are several small trailers you could tow.. In my home state
(FL), you can have a trailer of up to 13' and 2000LBS without having to
register it (it is considered part of the car, so the cars plates and
insurance covers it), and of course, if theres a need, there are people to
sell things that fill it :)

Don't know where you are from, or what your local laws say, but there are a
few that weigh about 1500 LBS and go on a 467LB trailer. I picked up a used
truck bed camper, and just put it on the utility trailer.. Handy when going
out in the woods...
Gene - 15 Jan 2006 13:35 GMT
>>> you may be able to tow a small boat or maybe a tent on a small
>>> utility trailer but nothing more.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>insurance covers it), and of course, if theres a need, there are people to
>sell things that fill it :)

 Thank you. Just looking through sales offerings and the trailer is
planned to be a "Temp" housing place till I can build a small
microhouse which is where I'll spend the rest of the time while
planning/building the bigger one.

 I have seen so many 21', 18' and a few 15' but don't want to
purchase if they are going to rip the rear end off the car...Or, in an
emergency stop, try to hump the car in a last ditch effort to breed
new trailers...:)

That's why I thought a 13' would fit into the "Acceptable" envelope of
towing without endangering myself, or others...
Peter Pan - 15 Jan 2006 17:28 GMT
>  Thank you. Just looking through sales offerings and the trailer is
> planned to be a "Temp" housing place till I can build a small
> microhouse which is where I'll spend the rest of the time while
> planning/building the bigger one.

> That's why I thought a 13' would fit into the "Acceptable" envelope of
> towing without endangering myself, or others...

As others have said, there are small TT's (13' check out the scamp), but it
DOES depend on where you are... While you can certainly live in a small
trailer in the south during the winter, you may have a big problem if you
are in the north (sort of warm outside means you have a huge area outside to
recreate in, but north means you will be stuck in an area about the size of
a jail cell)

For instance, even though I am from Florida, I am currently in Northern
Idaho on 5 acres, live in a 65'x14' perm-parked trailer, and have a 13' TT
that I tow behind my vehicle for camping/hunting/etc... When I was in Vegas,
the TT was fine year round, but now/here with winter (and lots of snow and
cold), the TT is basically parked behind the garage (unused) and probably
won't be moved until spring.

If in fact that what you said above is what you want, consider an onsite
older bigger trailer/professionally moved (many construction companies have
people who do that), and just a smaller one to vacation/travel in.

Other than cost, I see no problem with having two different trailers.. (One
to live in and one to travel in, course I have two, so I'm biased)
Will Sill - 15 Jan 2006 12:28 GMT
I see where Gene <Gene@nowhere.com> contributed:

>OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>
>Yep, have trailer hookup installed..tow weight rated 3250.
>
>I was looking at a 13 foot trailer..Is that too much trailer?

Why are you asking? Isn't it bone obvious that you're comparing weight
to length?   Egad!  Engage brain.

But for your reading pleasure, the following may not seem to pertain
to using a Grand Am for towing - but read it anyway in you want:
==================
It is my firmly-held opinion that  - on average - manufacturers'
maximum tow ratings are optimistic and presume near-ideal
conditions and a fair amount of operator skill. I continue to
recommend that people buying equipment to tow (or be towed) try
to stay well *under* the maximum. I like a 75% target, on the
basis that it provides a safety/reliability/comfort cushion for
steep grades, bad roads, and emergency maneuvers.  In recent
years as the bulk of traffic has moved over to the interstate
system, I've become increasingly concerned with the number of
people who sincerely believe it is OK to drag their long long
tri-axle trailer (at 125% of tow rating) at 75 mph with their
leetl pick-em-up.

    [There is even the Hensley hitch character going about    
    like a side show barker with his video showing an    
    Intrepid hauling a 9,600 lb trailer! This is FIVE TIMES
    the tow rating, ladies & gents! The product is good but
    the marketing is near-fraudulent.]

Bottom line:  there's a great deal more to tow ratings than
power.  To get some perspective on that, consider the average
over-the-road truck. Typically 400 horsepower or less to haul
80,000 pounds.  Do your own math.

And consider this reasoning for a 75% recomendtion:

There is pretty general agreement that it is unwise and possibly
dangerous to EXCEED maximum ratings, but many of us with long
trailering experience have found that tow rating information is
often misleading - or at least not applicable to everyone.

1. The tow rating is ALWAYS a maximum figure, and is as large as the
manufacturer dares make it. They hope you will buy their stuff for
towing.  Their rating may or may not be right for you.  Every maker
has his own methods of setting tow ratings. Some are conservative
and some are ludicrously over-stated (many Jeep Cherokees were rated
at 5,000 lbs, and IMO are hopelessly overloaded at that figure).

2. MOST tow ratings (nothing personal or specific vs your brand)
do not allow for long steep grades - up or (especially) down.

3. Most tow ratings make no allowance for bad road conditions.

4. Most tow ratings are accompanied by asterisks that call attention
to special equipment "required". Your rig may not have those features.

5. Most tow ratings make no allowance whatever for emergency
maneuvers.  I assure you your vehicle WILL NOT turn or stop as
fast or as safely with the maximum load as it will with a lot less.
The difference can be dramatic. Don't believe me?  Try a few tactics
in a large parking lot.

6. Vehicle tow ratings make no allowance for the DRIVER'S "tow
rating".  No insult intended, but if you have to ask how much your
rig will tow, you have neither the experience or the knowledge to
handle the maximum load safely.  IMO.

7. One of the most-overlooked factors in safe towing is a COMBINED
maximum (GCWR = Gross Combined Weight Rating, often only found in
a towing guide) that dictates a much lighter-than-maximum TOWED load.
Most of the weight of cargo & passengers in the tow vehicle must be
deducted from the permissible towed load to find the true rating.
Some towing guides appear to gloss over this issue because the
marketing types want to put the best possible face on their product.

8. What is reasonably safe and comfortable at 45 mph may well be a
lethal weapon at 75.  Tow ratings, IMO, do NOT reflect any respect for
this hazard.  

9. An internal combustion engine loses about 2 1/2 to 3% efficiency
per thousand feet.  You can easily lose 15-18% in the mountains
unless you have a turbocharger or supercharger.

10.  Regardless of weight ratings, SUV's and "1/2'-ton" pickups are
mostly useless for serious towing.  They will handle pop-ups and even
some of the short "lite" trailers - and will haul yer big one out to
the lake if you are careful.  But competent handling of a large TT
requires a long wheelbase & short overhang.  

Someone once wrote: "You can tow anything with anything - the question
is how far, how safely?"

BOTTOM LINE:  IF you trust the experienced trailerists who have been
there and done that and don't want to go back, you will not exceed
about 75% of the rated maximum.  The number is of course not writ by
the finger of God on a stone tablet - it is merely an indication that
you should stay well below the manufacturer's maximum allowance if you
want a safe, comfortable trip.  Some say the figure ought to be as low
as 50 or 60%.  But except for a few macho braggarts, most experienced
folks agree in principle if not detail with these concerns. For
example, go to http://www.popuptimes.com/archives/75rule.asp
   
Will Sill
"A great many people think they are thinking when they
are merely rearranging their prejudices."
William James
Gene - 15 Jan 2006 13:29 GMT
>I see where Gene <Gene@nowhere.com> contributed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Why are you asking? Isn't it bone obvious that you're comparing weight
>to length?   Egad!  Engage brain.

Well, I apologise for making the question too hard for some
here...Really, I diodn't know someone wouldn't have a clue about what
the weight of a 13' trailer would weigh.

I apologise for taking your time and hope that some day, someone would
come by and help some here, to figure out how to read a question
without acting a bit off or insulting.

Thank you.
Frank Tabor - 15 Jan 2006 15:10 GMT
>>I see where Gene <Gene@nowhere.com> contributed:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Thank you.

Google for Scamper.  
Signature

Frank Tabor

Rich256 - 15 Jan 2006 16:37 GMT
> >>I see where Gene <Gene@nowhere.com> contributed:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Google for Scamper.

A neighbor just bought an older one of them:

http://www.scamptrailers.com/

950 lbs.
William Boyd - 15 Jan 2006 17:20 GMT
>>>>I see where Gene <Gene@nowhere.com> contributed:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> 950 lbs.

Might be hard to come by one of these as the factory burned down.
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/politics/13628164.htm

Signature

BILL P.
Just Dog
  &
 ME

Will Sill - 16 Jan 2006 00:29 GMT
I see where Gene <Gene@nowhere.com> contributed:

>Well, I apologise for making the question too hard for some
>here...Really, I diodn't know someone wouldn't have a clue about what
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>come by and help some here, to figure out how to read a question
>without acting a bit off or insulting.

Sorry you were insulted, but if you're insulted every time someone
points out really obvious things like the fact that weight and length
are entirely different issues, you'll spend a lot of your time feeling
insulted.  

I'll give you one more chance, in case you didn't pay any attention to
the other posts or were too insulted to absorb the information.

WEIGHT is what matters most in towing, and a 13 foot trailer can weigh
800# or 2800# - or less or more. A given unit weighs what it weighs,
as measured by a SCALE.  That figure may but usually not be the
advertised unladen weight, or the GVWR -- and almost CERTAINLY will
not be what the sales person says it is.   No matter WHAT it weighs, I
tend to agree with those who advise towing one with a Grand Am.

If you really really plan to just park the thing as a temporary
residence, IMO you'd be MUCH better off to buy an aging but
non-leaking TT of 5'er, have it delivered and live in it for the
duration of the construction work.  Wife & I lived in a 28' fifth
wheel for 6 months while rebuilding our house, and would NOT want to
do the same in a 13' anything.

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Will Sill - 16 Jan 2006 01:08 GMT
I see where Will Sill <will@epix.enet> contributed:

> No matter WHAT it weighs, I
>tend to agree with those who advise towing one with a Grand Am.

Duh!

That was supposed to read:

> No matter WHAT it weighs, I tend to agree with those who
> advise AGAINST towing one with a Grand Am.

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Randy Davis - 15 Jan 2006 14:27 GMT
It is not only crazy, it is dangerous. Did you ever wonder why you don't see
Grand Am's pulling trailers? The truth of the matter is that we can't tell
you more than that because you have failed to provide the necessary
information. Not all 13 feet trailers weigh the same. Then there is the
matter of your personal effects, water, propane, and other things that are
not included in the weight of the trailer. You need to know the Combined
GVRW of your vehicle and then figure out the weight of the car, loaded with
you, your stuff, and fuel. Figure out the weight of the trailer loaded. Add
the two and if it is below the combine GVRW you can tow that vehicle. But,
it will not be safe. To be safe you need to take the Combined GVRW and then
use 75% of that as the abolute Combined weight. I doubt seriously that you
will find anything that you can tow safely that is much bigger than a pop-up
trailer. Do be warned that the dealer who sells you the trailer will tell
you all kinds of things to do the sale.

In short, if you have to ask this question you are not yet ready to buy.
Hang around the newsgroup, ask questions, do your homework. And, don't be
thin-skinned. You can't survive here if you are, and if you don't listen to
the advice of those who have been doing this for a long time you may be dead
when you tow your overweight trailer.

Randy Davis

> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>
> Yep, have trailer hookup installed..tow weight rated 3250.
>
> I was looking at a 13 foot trailer..Is that too much trailer?
Gene - 15 Jan 2006 18:47 GMT
>It is not only crazy, it is dangerous. Did you ever wonder why you don't see
>Grand Am's pulling trailers?

 Ummm..That's funny, I have..2 small utility, but one was a 13' I
would have followed, but pulling a 180 at 65 mph is a bit crazy.

>The truth of the matter is that we can't tell
>you more than that because you have failed to provide the necessary
>information. Not all 13 feet trailers weigh the same.

I know that much, the question wasn't so openended as you seem to
think.

Basically, the "Average" weight was what I was looking at. If the
"Average was over 3000, then no, I wouldn't try it. If it was 85% of
limit, then again, nope. If say the answer had been "There are some
which are below 2500" That's the kind of answer I was looking for.

Regarding which ones, that's what I have to find out. But I sure don't
care to drive to the 20 or so dealers nearby, if the trailers I'll
see, are out of the weight limit.

Very simple..

That's all the information I was looking for.

>Then there is the
>matter of your personal effects, water, propane, and other things that are
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>trailer. Do be warned that the dealer who sells you the trailer will tell
>you all kinds of things to do the sale.

 Yes, I know that salesmen don't care except for the $$$ That's why I
am looking for the "Average"

Plus, I don't know how I'll accept what's there or not. It is intended
for a "Temp" shelter. So, this usually means I'll strip somethings
which I feel aren't need, or useless in regards to weight.

>In short, if you have to ask this question you are not yet ready to buy.

Yes, I am, but not ready to spend 45 hours driving dealer to dealer
and finding the weight of the trailers are not what I can risk.

>Hang around the newsgroup, ask questions, do your homework. And, don't be
>thin-skinned. You can't survive here if you are, and if you don't listen to
>the advice of those who have been doing this for a long time you may be dead
>when you tow your overweight trailer.

Well, if someone feels the need to insult a poster asking a very
simple question, then what does that say about the group in general?

I know every group has their "Types" and such, but in a general sense,
excusing the persons actions, speaks volumes for those who also
frequest this group.

>Randy Davis
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> I was looking at a 13 foot trailer..Is that too much trailer?
RAM^3 - 15 Jan 2006 19:04 GMT
> Yes, I am, but not ready to spend 45 hours driving dealer to dealer
> and finding the weight of the trailers are not what I can risk.

You'd be better off spending a bit of time online first:

1. Compile a "short list" of those trailers whose GVWRs fall within your
towing capacity.

   This data is available on the manufacturers' web sites.

   The smaller the trailer the more likely to be loaded to/above the GVWR
with "stuff".

2. Compile a list of "local" dealers who handle these specific trailers.

3. Add to the dealer list any Consignment/Resale Lots that offer one or more
of the trailers.

4. Starting with the Consignment/Resale Lots, go see the trailers.

       Consignment/Resale offerings will give you a good idea how well-made
           a given make/model/year trailer is and what a new one will soon
look like.

FWIW, don't be surprised to find that even the smallest hard-body trailer's
GVWR will seriously exceed your Pontiac's towing capability.
GBinNC - 15 Jan 2006 20:05 GMT
>Basically, the "Average" weight was what I was looking at. If the
>"Average was over 3000, then no, I wouldn't try it. If it was 85% of
>limit, then again, nope. If say the answer had been "There are some
>which are below 2500" That's the kind of answer I was looking for.

I think you've already gotten enough good advice, so I won't try to give
any.

But here's something about towing weight, for the record:

We factory-ordered new (and still have, now with 200k on it) a '96
Plymouth Grand Voyager with the towing package. This was not to pull a
TT but a small utility trailer. It's supposed to tow 3500# with the
package.

I loaded the small trailer with gravel once, total weight about 2500#. I
drove it several miles to my destination and I will never do it again.
And we're talking about 1000# BELOW the supposed towing capacity of the
vehicle -- and there was no cargo in the vehicle and I was the only
occupant.

It wasn't that I felt that unsafe, although I *am* glad I didn't have to
make a quick stop. It's just that I could feel the strain on the engine
and drive train the entire time. I've towed that trailer any number of
times since then with a much lighter load, and it does just fine. But
I'll not go over a ton again or probably anywhere near it. (I now have a
5'x8' enclosed cargo trailer that my Class B can handle with little
effort.)

My point: Just because a vehicle is supposed to be able to tow a certain
weight doesn't mean it will do it adequately.

And speaking of which, I once saw a minivan just like ours (same color,
even) towing a huge tri-axle Airstream at 70 mph on an interstate
highway. Thank heaven I was going the other way. I did not want to be
near such a combination. And I wonder how long his transmission lasted
(ours has been rebuilt twice, and we're easy on it)....

GB in NC
John Wesley - 18 Jan 2006 04:35 GMT
I had a grand am.  I wouldn't tow anything with a grand am except maybe
a small utility trailer.  It wouldn't even have enough power and braking
for a small pop up.  It would be an accident waiting to happen.

jw
Rich256 - 18 Jan 2006 14:48 GMT
> I had a grand am.  I wouldn't tow anything with a grand am except maybe
> a small utility trailer.  It wouldn't even have enough power and braking
> for a small pop up.  It would be an accident waiting to happen.
>
> jw

I had a Grand Am.  Although not designed to tow, it probably would out-pull
many of the tow vehicles on the road today.  (1973, 400 Cubic Inch or maybe
it was a 455).
William Boyd - 18 Jan 2006 15:06 GMT
>>I had a grand am.  I wouldn't tow anything with a grand am except maybe
>>a small utility trailer.  It wouldn't even have enough power and braking
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> many of the tow vehicles on the road today.  (1973, 400 Cubic Inch or maybe
> it was a 455).

That was what I was talking about in one of my earlier replies. As I
said you can tell that some did not know the formidable earlier Grand Am
cars. Guess that must indicate they are either to young and do not have
the experience or to old and have misplaced their memory.

Signature

BILL P.
Just Dog
  &
 ME

Unk - 18 Jan 2006 17:39 GMT
>> I had a Grand Am.  Although not designed to tow, it probably would out-pull
>> many of the tow vehicles on the road today.  (1973, 400 Cubic Inch or maybe
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>cars. Guess that must indicate they are either to young and do not have
>the experience or to old and have misplaced their memory.

Those muscle cars were not meant to tow.  They were lightweight for
speed.  The brakes are waaaaay to small, the springs are waaaaaay to
light.

But if someone wants to tow, let them suffer the consequences.

unk
Rich256 - 18 Jan 2006 19:51 GMT
> >> I had a Grand Am.  Although not designed to tow, it probably would out-pull
> >> many of the tow vehicles on the road today.  (1973, 400 Cubic Inch or maybe
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> unk

Just wonder how you figure that.  The Grand Am weight was over 4000 pounds.
I would think that would be more than necessary for pulling a 2000 pound
trailer.  Many here think it is perfectly OK to pull a 12000 pound trailer
with an 8000 pound vehicle.  With a WDH the tongue weight should not be a
problem.

And the trailer brakes should take care of itself.

I pulled about a 2000 pound trailer all over Colorado with a 350 Ford
Galaxy.   Probably less weight than the Grand Am.   The trailer brakes were
more than adequate to take care of itself.
William Boyd - 18 Jan 2006 20:28 GMT
>>>I had a Grand Am.  Although not designed to tow, it probably would out-pull
>>>many of the tow vehicles on the road today.  (1973, 400 Cubic Inch or maybe
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> unk
That is bull sh.t, they in fact had heavier construction to stand up to
the high power engines. The one I had was built with what looked like
the same suspension as the pickup I had. How about the muscle car in
Dukes of Hazard, look what it was put through. Yes I know the production
of that series went through several cars.

Signature

BILL P.
Just Dog
  &
 ME

John Wesley - 19 Jan 2006 00:31 GMT
> > I had a grand am.  I wouldn't tow anything with a grand am except maybe
> > a small utility trailer.  It wouldn't even have enough power and braking
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> many of the tow vehicles on the road today.  (1973, 400 Cubic Inch or maybe
> it was a 455).

The OP has a 96 I believe.  I had a 94.  The newer ones ain't pullin'
much.
Rich256 - 19 Jan 2006 02:58 GMT
> > > I had a grand am.  I wouldn't tow anything with a grand am except maybe
> > > a small utility trailer.  It wouldn't even have enough power and braking
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> The OP has a 96 I believe.  I had a 94.  The newer ones ain't pullin'
> much.

I think you are right.  He did not state that in the original post which got
us going saying it all depends on the age.  Us old ----s remember when it
had lots of power.
RAM^3 - 19 Jan 2006 03:55 GMT
> I think you are right.  He did not state that in the original post which
> got
> us going saying it all depends on the age.  Us old ----s remember when it
> had lots of power.

Not to mention a *very* stout frame!
Jim Redelfs - 19 Jan 2006 11:54 GMT
> Not to mention a *very* stout frame!

Heck, that's a BIG part of the equation that many forget.

Do you remember when UNIBODY first appeared?  Those of us that knew the
difference between a camshaft and crankshaft were appalled.

Now all these kids come along and all they want to know is how much they can
tow with a front-wheel-drive minivan.  Then they go away mad when virtually
everyone tells them the "bad news".

Signature

           :)
JR

Gene - 19 Jan 2006 12:14 GMT
>> Not to mention a *very* stout frame!
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>tow with a front-wheel-drive minivan.  Then they go away mad when virtually
>everyone tells them the "bad news".

Well, I certianly didn't go away and not mad as one poster was so
helpful in not only saying it's a bad idea, but also WHY and that is
something which I surely appreciate.

No, not because I'll be risking my life, but I'd be risking the lives
of those with me (My dogs) and of course, those in traffic also.

And yes, I never knew the difference between unibody and the old
frames, but I ask questions and usually, I get some solid answers.

I remember when we also had (I believe is was a 79) a Grand Am. Yes,
that was a strong bugger, but sadly, it passed away to that great
wrecking yard in the sky...Ever wonder what happens when a drive shaft
pops loose from the front of a transmission at 45 mph? :0

Not the most fun thing I assure you...But sure made for a spectacle
for some waiting for a bus...:)
William Boyd - 19 Jan 2006 18:54 GMT
>>>Not to mention a *very* stout frame!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Not the most fun thing I assure you...But sure made for a spectacle
> for some waiting for a bus...:)
Talking about sturdy frames. I can remember cutting away the back of a
car and making a pickup out of it. Hauled fire wood in from the farm in
Oklahoma City for several people made enough money to buy my next car,
straight out of the junk yard.

Signature

BILL P.
Just Me and Dog

Jim Redelfs - 19 Jan 2006 18:57 GMT
> Well, I certianly didn't go away and not mad

That's good.  If you can endure the off-topics and occasional flames, there's
a WEALTH of RVing and trailering information available here.  Lots of
opinions, too.   <g>

> one poster was so helpful in not only saying it's a bad idea,
> but also WHY and that is something which I surely appreciate.

Well, we can't have that.  Your muther wears COMBAT BOOTS!   <BG>

> I'd be risking the lives of those with me (My dogs) and of course,
> those in traffic also.

You're new here?  If yes, you're WAY more "on top of it" than the usual
newbie.  Overloaded towing (a bad thing) is a SAFETY hazard to a LOT of
people, not to mention dogs!  (Good for you.)

> I never knew the difference between unibody and the old
> frames, but I ask questions and usually, I get some solid answers.

Getting rid of the frame was one of the EARLY approaches to DOWNSIZING,
weight-reduction and fuel economy improvements.  Unibody construction is a
perfectly good passenger car building technique but, without a frame, lacks
sufficient [whatever] to tow much of anything.

> 79) a Grand Am. Yes, that was a strong bugger, but sadly, it passed away
> to that greatwrecking yard in the sky.

Saying goodbye to a good, old car is difficult and sad.  BTDT

> Ever wonder what happens when a drive shaft
> pops loose from the front of a transmission at 45 mph? :0

Ooops.  We weren't keeping-up with universal joint maintenance, were we?

> Not the most fun thing I assure you...But sure made for a spectacle
> for some waiting for a bus...:)

Yeah, I'll bet.   Did it catch a seam in the pavement?  Didja flip?

Buckle up!

Signature

           :)
JR

Rich256 - 19 Jan 2006 20:35 GMT
> > Well, I certianly didn't go away and not mad
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Ooops.  We weren't keeping-up with universal joint maintenance, were we?

Brings back memories.  I think it was the first time I pulled a camping
trailer.  We had rented one to see if we liked doing it.  In a little town
close to the campground I heard the sound of a loose U Joint.  I went into a
parts store and bought one, planning to get to a station as soon as I
unhooked the trailer.  Got to the CG and unhooked.  Took a look at the U
Joint and was afraid to even drive the thing.  Having done it before and
having a few tools (socket wrench and hammer) I jacked the car up right
there in the CG, dropped the drive shaft and put on the new joint.    I
think I did it in less time than it would have taken to drive to town and
wait for someone else to do it.

That is another task that is about impossible with the front wheel drive.
Gene - 20 Jan 2006 01:43 GMT
>> Well, I certianly didn't go away and not mad
>
>That's good.  If you can endure the off-topics and occasional flames, there's
>a WEALTH of RVing and trailering information available here.  Lots of
>opinions, too.   <g>

>> Ever wonder what happens when a drive shaft
>> pops loose from the front of a transmission at 45 mph? :0
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Yeah, I'll bet.   Did it catch a seam in the pavement?  Didja flip?

Well, it dropped out, It banged about (As I started to hit the brakes)
and then it caught "Something" (I think a pot hole) and launched the
rear about 6' in the air.

In the 4 seconds I was pretending to be a "Dive Bomber" (One witness
said they'd never seen so many sparks come off the FRONT of a vehicle
in motion) I converted to 12 known religions and then one of them had
the desire to see what else I could mess up in life and so the rear
come back down.

The rear axle had been turned and the first bounce shoved the
driveshaft into it partially, bending it and then second one snapped
it off, thus I bounced to a stop right at the intersection and to my
left, was a officer who had seen the entire thing in his rearview and
side windows and also converted to some religions as he thought he
also was about to meet his maker.

On the bright side, a wrecker (Owned by a wrecking yard) saw the
impromptu circus and took the poor thing away (For $45 as the engine
still ran..Somehow) and so, I was left to walk the 4 miles home and
with each step I cursed my luck for not knowing the bus schedules..

Later, we bought a Ford Maverick, but that's another story (I lit the
entire set of idiot lights at 65 mph at night) for another day...
Jim Redelfs - 19 Jan 2006 11:50 GMT
> Us old ----s remember when it had lots of power.

You got that right, Mr.   :)

For today's kids, heck even OUR kids,
the power isn't under the hood, it's...

...UNDER THE DASHBOARD!  (Loud, booming car stereos)

Years ago, when I wanted to install a floor shifter in my '68 Chevelle, my
grandfather just fumed:  "We waited 30 YEARS to get that thing OFF the floor
and now you want to put it BACK!!"

Kids these days...   <sigh>

Signature

           :)
JR

Curtis - 23 Jan 2006 18:14 GMT
You had a Gran Prix NOT a Gran Am. Totally different car.

>> I had a grand am.  I wouldn't tow anything with a grand am except maybe
>> a small utility trailer.  It wouldn't even have enough power and braking
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> maybe
> it was a 455).
Rich256 - 23 Jan 2006 18:46 GMT
> You had a Gran Prix NOT a Gran Am. Totally different car.

Nope:  Grand Am.  Had to look around the web to find references to them but
I see it could not have had the 455 engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Am
tightwad - 15 Jan 2006 14:34 GMT
> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>
> Yep, have trailer hookup installed..tow weight rated 3250.
>
> I was looking at a 13 foot trailer..Is that too much trailer?

I think you are pulling our leg.
If not NO!
If you do don't drive on the road I'm on.
Advocate - 15 Jan 2006 16:03 GMT
> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>
> Yep, have trailer hookup installed..tow weight rated 3250.
>
> I was looking at a 13 foot trailer..Is that too much trailer?

The 4 cylinder Grand Am is not recommended for towing, the V6 is good for
1,000 pounds.

In other words, your car cannot pull the trailer. No way, no how.

If you are setting up at a construction site and leaving the trailer there,
have a friend with a suitable tow vehicle do it for you.
William Boyd - 15 Jan 2006 16:19 GMT
> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>
> Yep, have trailer hookup installed..tow weight rated 3250.
>
> I was looking at a 13 foot trailer..Is that too much trailer?

Maybe there is a lack of knowledge on the Grand Am model you have.
Is it one of the older ones with an engine larger than the average
pickup, rear wheel drive. If so, they will pull a good deal more than
the later models will. When you say tow in the same discussion that you
will use it for temporary housing, brings in the thought just how much
are you going to tow it.

I quote you;
" the trailer is planned to be a "Temp" housing place till I can build a
small micro house which is where I'll spend the rest of the time while
planning/building the bigger one."

You have spent funds that  could have covered the contracted towing of
any small camper of your choice. This would have allowed you to choose
an adequate sized camper to suit your "Temp" housing.

But, considering you have gone this far in preparation for towing, it is
apparent you intended on towing it around some. I would suggest you
obtain an equalizer hitch and rear overload springs for the Grand Am, if
this is your intent. I would also insure you have en electric brake
controller on the car and good brakes on the trailer.

Signature

BILL P.
Just Dog
  &
 ME

William Boyd - 15 Jan 2006 17:35 GMT
>> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> this is your intent. I would also insure you have en electric brake
> controller on the car and good brakes on the trailer.

My reference to the earlier mode Grand Am does not include the newer
front wheel drive versions. I would not tow with a front wheel drive
unibody vehicle at all.

Signature

BILL P.
Just Dog
  &
 ME

Gene - 15 Jan 2006 18:43 GMT
>>> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>front wheel drive versions. I would not tow with a front wheel drive
>unibody vehicle at all.

Ahhhh...I see....OK, thanks. Then I shall discard the idea totally.

You see? That kind of information is what I wanted.

Care to explain that? I may (Someday) be able to pass that info along
and help someone else like you have me.
William Boyd - 15 Jan 2006 19:54 GMT
> Ahhhh...I see....OK, thanks. Then I shall discard the idea totally.
>
> You see? That kind of information is what I wanted.
>
> Care to explain that? I may (Someday) be able to pass that info along
> and help someone else like you have me.

First, I do not think it is economically feasible to purchase an
equalizer hitch, $400, Brake controller and installation,$150, Just for
one tow job.(You would be lucky to get these prices) With a front wheel
drive tow vehicle, the majority of the weight is up front. When you
negotiate a stop, probability of jackknifing is very high. The trailer
would have to be used as the primary stopping unit to prevent this. This
could be done but traction on the front tires, I dont think lends it's
self to an even pull. Of course freight trains do it but they are on
tracks too.
 When the Kaiser car came out after WWII, we attempted to use it for
towing, but the unibody welds began to come loose. A 1964 Mustang also
having unibody construction had problems keeping the front and back
halves together, we think was caused by engine torque.
Signature

BILL P.
Just Dog
  &
 ME

Gene - 15 Jan 2006 20:01 GMT
>> Ahhhh...I see....OK, thanks. Then I shall discard the idea totally.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>having unibody construction had problems keeping the front and back
>halves together, we think was caused by engine torque.

 Thank you. I appreciate the response in a timely and intelligent
manner. I can see what you're explaining also. Yes, sounds very
logical in regards to "What may happen" and thus, makes me see, my
attempt could easily prove fatal.

Thanks again.
William Boyd - 15 Jan 2006 20:11 GMT
>   Thank you. I appreciate the response in a timely and intelligent
> manner. I can see what you're explaining also. Yes, sounds very
> logical in regards to "What may happen" and thus, makes me see, my
> attempt could easily prove fatal.
>
> Thanks again.

I know that desperate measures are some times warranted but if it were
me I think the advice on having the dealer deliver it for you is sound.
I'm sure there are other items of information you would require on the
feasibility of living in an RV. More specifically your geographical
location for weather preparations.
You may be able to obtain some good advice here.
Signature

BILL P.
Just Dog
  &
 ME

Gene - 16 Jan 2006 01:32 GMT
>>   Thank you. I appreciate the response in a timely and intelligent
>> manner. I can see what you're explaining also. Yes, sounds very
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>location for weather preparations.
>You may be able to obtain some good advice here.

Well, I have received some VERY good advice and will peruse postings
you make in the future if they pertain to me somewhat.

As for "Others" the filters are quite useful on Agent.
Gene - 15 Jan 2006 18:47 GMT
>> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>will use it for temporary housing, brings in the thought just how much
>are you going to tow it.

 It's a one shot tow. Just to get to the location and that's it. Of
course, I don't want to kill the car in the tow either.

>I quote you;
>" the trailer is planned to be a "Temp" housing place till I can build a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>any small camper of your choice. This would have allowed you to choose
>an adequate sized camper to suit your "Temp" housing.

The "Funds" spent have been less then $200. I really doubt anyone
would deliver a trailer for that amount anywhere..Unless it was a very
short drive.

>But, considering you have gone this far in preparation for towing, it is
>apparent you intended on towing it around some. I would suggest you
>obtain an equalizer hitch and rear overload springs for the Grand Am, if
>this is your intent. I would also insure you have en electric brake
>controller on the car and good brakes on the trailer.

 Now that's helpful informaiton. I will look into that...But like I
said, it's a "One Shot" tow and drop..Nothing more.
RAM^3 - 15 Jan 2006 19:12 GMT
>>> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>  Now that's helpful informaiton. I will look into that...But like I
> said, it's a "One Shot" tow and drop..Nothing more.

You *might* want to check out used trailers offered near [<25 miles?] your
intended site - the seller [especially if a dealership] might deliver it as
a condition of the sale! <G>

This way, your budget (not your vehicle) would determine the size/comfort
level of the trailer.
Gene - 15 Jan 2006 20:04 GMT
>>>> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>This way, your budget (not your vehicle) would determine the size/comfort
>level of the trailer.

 Yes, that's now the idea. I have searched for alot of information,
but somethings are just damn near impossible (Like trailer weight) to
find....

That was a "Thought" previous to this posr, but not explored as I
looked at "Cost" here and not there, or that a seller may just (For a
fee) tow it our for me.
Eregon - 15 Jan 2006 20:22 GMT
Gene <Gene@nowhere.com> wrote in news:uhals1h9dulom04qctptnhq7dlhd1qm412@
4ax.com:

>   Yes, that's now the idea. I have searched for alot of information,
> but somethings are just damn near impossible (Like trailer weight) to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> looked at "Cost" here and not there, or that a seller may just (For a
> fee) tow it our for me.

If the seller is an individual tell him/her/it that you'll pay for it upon
delivery - that way, especially if it doesn't break down in transit, you'll
be assured of (at least) reasonably-sound running gear. If the seller can't
get it there intact you won't have to foot the bill.

A dealership/consignment/resale operation may, or may not, deliver it for
free within a given radius.

Either way, you won't be stuck with an untowable trailer sitting on someone
else's real estate.
Gene - 16 Jan 2006 01:33 GMT
>Gene <Gene@nowhere.com> wrote in news:uhals1h9dulom04qctptnhq7dlhd1qm412@
>4ax.com:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Either way, you won't be stuck with an untowable trailer sitting on someone
>else's real estate.

THANK YOU! That's one hell of a good suggestion!
Peter Pan - 15 Jan 2006 21:52 GMT
>> You *might* want to check out used trailers offered near [<25
>> miles?] your intended site - the seller [especially if a dealership]
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> looked at "Cost" here and not there, or that a seller may just (For a
> fee) tow it our for me.

Again, depending on where you are, you may want to look at used construction
trailers (not set up for RV'ng, but usually have a bathroom and a kitchen)..
When the buildings are finished, they sometimes unload them and of course
have the trucks to deliver it.
Gene - 16 Jan 2006 01:35 GMT
>>> You *might* want to check out used trailers offered near [<25
>>> miles?] your intended site - the seller [especially if a dealership]
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>When the buildings are finished, they sometimes unload them and of course
>have the trucks to deliver it.

Thank you, yes that too is a very good idea!

I knew there would be some people in thie group who'd take the extra
time to figuire out a sensible solution.

 I am in debt to you..Can I send you a check? Good in...Oh 12 years?
:)
RAM^3 - 15 Jan 2006 17:31 GMT
> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>
> Yep, have trailer hookup installed..tow weight rated 3250.
>
> I was looking at a 13 foot trailer..Is that too much trailer?

What Model Year is your Pontiac and which engine do you have? If it was made
prior to 1980 you *could* have a passable tow vehicle.

What *kind* of trailer did you have in mind?
Gene - 15 Jan 2006 18:45 GMT
>> OK, crazy as it sounds, I only have this for towing...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>What *kind* of trailer did you have in mind?

Well, it's a 96, but as one poster said, he wouldn't risk it at all.
That's enough for me, however, I have asked why and I am sure he's the
type who'll explain such to someone as I am.

It's a 6 cyl, but if someone says "This and this NO WAY" I'll take
their advice. I love life as much as anyone, but sure dislike someone
who'll be a sort of smart a.s, without the intelligence to back up
their attitude.
 
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