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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / March 2006

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Reverse polarity warning with our Honda generator

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Big Bird - 18 Mar 2006 14:32 GMT
Has anyone had reverse polarity problems with their Honda generator?  We've
used our EU3000is generator for years now while boondocking.  Yesterday I
plugged a digital power monitor (model 20020 made by Automated Engineering)
directly into the generator and received a "reverse polarity fault" alarm.
What is this condition and can it be corrected?!?

Thanks,

Phil
Pepperoni - 18 Mar 2006 14:43 GMT
Let me see if I can find a write-up.  IIRC,  RVs have an unusual grounding
situation.  let me look.................

http://tinyurl.com/lzgna

Here's a hint, but not much info.

> Has anyone had reverse polarity problems with their Honda generator?
> We've used our EU3000is generator for years now while boondocking.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Phil
Rich256 - 18 Mar 2006 16:42 GMT
> Let me see if I can find a write-up.  IIRC,  RVs have an unusual grounding
> situation.  let me look.................
>
> http://tinyurl.com/lzgna
>
> Here's a hint, but not much info.

I think it might be that the ground and return in generator are not tied
 together.  Not certain about that.

They should not be tied together in the RV.  It they are the GFCI on
shore power will trip because there will be some return current in the
ground.
RichA - 18 Mar 2006 17:31 GMT
>Has anyone had reverse polarity problems with their Honda generator?  We've
>used our EU3000is generator for years now while boondocking.  Yesterday I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Thanks,
>Phil
Hi,
The basic reason is because the generator is not grounded.  It's an
isolated ground.  The output of the generator is isolated from the
chassis.  Your meter is seeing this as reversed polarity.  It should not
be a problem.  If in doubt call Honda and ask them.

Take care and Happy Campin...
Big Bird - 18 Mar 2006 17:59 GMT
Update since my earlier post this morning...

I just powered our TT with our Honda generator to check all of the outlets
with my model 20020 power monitor.  Every outlet shows a ground fault (GF)
alarm!  I then plugged the monitor directly into the generator (with it
still powering the TT) and it too gave me a GF alarm.  When I unplugged the
trailer from the generator, my still attached monitor switched back to a
polarity fault (PF).  When I ran an extension cord out from the house to
power the trailer the monitor was happy - no faults.  I'm cornfused (beyond
confused).

Phil

> Has anyone had reverse polarity problems with their Honda generator?
> We've used our EU3000is generator for years now while boondocking.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Phil
JIMinFL - 18 Mar 2006 18:14 GMT
Phil,
Might be that neutral needs to be connected to ground at the generator.
Check the generator owners manual.
Jim

> Update since my earlier post this morning...
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>
>> Phil
Tom  J - 18 Mar 2006 19:15 GMT
> Update since my earlier post this morning...
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> monitor
> was happy - no faults.  I'm cornfused (beyond confused).

Put a wire to a ground stake from the Honda and it should solve your
readings on the meter. there is a ground lug either on the gen or the
frame. It expects the Honda to be grounded and it's not. DON'T tie the
neutral & ground together as has been suggested. This is an RV, not a
house and requires different wiring.

Tom J
Rich256 - 18 Mar 2006 23:12 GMT
Tom J wrote:
>> Update since my earlier post this morning...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Tom J

The only way to cure the monitor problem is to tie ground and neutral
together.  That is what will make it look like the commercial power.
Ground and neutral are tied together outside the house (at the circuit
breaker box).  And, I don't see any good reason not to tie them
together, especially if you use a ground stake like you recommend.

What you do not want is two grounds.  If a generator is hooked to house
wiring the common ground point for ground and neutral is normally
provided at the circuit breaker box.
Frank Tabor - 18 Mar 2006 23:45 GMT
>Tom J wrote:
>>> Update since my earlier post this morning...
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>wiring the common ground point for ground and neutral is normally
>provided at the circuit breaker box.

Do not hook the ground and neutral together in the generator.  If Honda
had intended it to be connected, they would have.
Signature

Frank Tabor

Rich256 - 19 Mar 2006 00:49 GMT
>> Tom J wrote:
>>>> Update since my earlier post this morning...
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> Do not hook the ground and neutral together in the generator.  If Honda
> had intended it to be connected, they would have.

They do not prohibit it.  They even recognize that sometimes code
requires it.

Don't do it "in the generator"  Do it external.

They do not tie them internal because it would violate codes when hooked
to house wiring where the ground and neutral are already tied together.
 Multiple grounds are prohibited because they cause ground loops.

Personally I would not bother.  Just recognize that the power monitor
can't work with a floating return.

Also recognize that if appliances in the RV are hooked to ground, the
GFCI in the RV will not perform unless the ground and neutral are tied
together.
Tom  J - 19 Mar 2006 03:36 GMT
> Tom J wrote:
>>> Update since my earlier post this morning...
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> neutral
> together.

Have YOU grounded a Honda generator and tested the meter?
There is no way the ground and neutral should ever be tied together
when powering an RV.

Tom J
been there and tried that ONE time.
Rich256 - 19 Mar 2006 04:22 GMT
Tom J wrote:
>> Tom J wrote:
>>>> Update since my earlier post this morning...
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Tom J
> been there and tried that ONE time.

Why shouldn't they be tied together?

I have done it.  Some RVs have the ground and neutral tied together
inside the rig when being powered by a generator.

However, it really doesn't accomplish anything unless they make a good
earth connection as well which is not practical for most RV use.

A properly wired RV will open that connection when plugged into shore
power.   In that case the shore power provides the common ground and
neutral.

I have seen some that did not remove that connection and they pop the
GCFI on the shore power supply.  If tied together in the RV some of the
return current will flow on the ground line popping the shore power GCFI.

This is for Honda Commercial Generators but would be valid for all:

http://www.mayberrys.com/honda/generator/html/operation.htm

"Bonding the neutral wire to ground is required on some construction
sites. Honda’s Industrial Generators provide neutral bonding."

From a Forum:

http://www.campingworld.com/cforum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/13722460.cfm
You bring up a good point. There are apparantly no existing standards in
the US on the grounding of portable generators. It is my understanding
that Honda generators have a "floating neutral" that is not bonded to
ground conductor. I have verified that my own EU1000 is unbonded.

<snip>
It is also my understanding that GFI recepticals on equipment powered by
such generators will not provide any protection.

Grounding of a portable generator in accordance with most electric codes
requires driving a 8' rod into the ground or bonding to an existing
grounding system. That is clearly not practical with portable generators
as we RVers use them.

I recently read a report of an instance where a person received an
electrical shock from a system powered by a Honda EU3000 generator. The
shock was caused by a faulty piece of electrical equipment but
reportedly would not have occured if the Honda had a bonded neutral.
<snip>
RichA - 19 Mar 2006 02:35 GMT
>Update since my earlier post this morning...
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Phil

Hi,
The generator has an isolated ground.  It is not grounded to earth or
anything else.  When you hook it to the RV you get a GF reading on your
meter because there is no ground coming into the RV.   RV's are not like
houses.  The ground and neutral are separate and should not be tied
together inside the RV like they are in regular homes breaker boxes.
The RV depends upon a ground being supplied by whatever it's plugged
into.  When you use an extension cord you supplied the RV a ground so
your monitor was happy.

Even grounding the frame of the Honda probably won't work because I
believe that the output is isolated from the frame, but that's easy to
test just by grounding the frame using a metal rod and wire.  If the GF
doesn't go away then the frame is isolated.

Your meter is better suited to testing campground wiring before you
plug into it then the output of the generator, as you are finding out :)

Take care and Happy Campin...
Big Bird - 18 Mar 2006 19:40 GMT
Thanks for the feedback, tips and suggestions.

> Has anyone had reverse polarity problems with their Honda generator?
> We've used our EU3000is generator for years now while boondocking.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Phil
 
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