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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / March 2006

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Best Ultralight 19' TT for towing with BMW X5

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pgmacdonald@gmail.com - 21 Mar 2006 04:16 GMT
I am realatively new to RV travel and I am in the market for a new
lightweight travel trailer to tow with my BMW X5 3.0.  The SUV is rated
for 6,000 lbs.  I've towed with it before and, unlike other mid-sized
SUVs I've heard of, it does quite well.

I am comparing a 19' Trail-Cruiser (Dual-axle, Dry Weight 2756, 8'
wide), 19' Jayco (Single-axle, GVWR 3750, 7.5' wide) and 19' Airstream
Bambi (Single-axle, GVWR 4500, 8' wide).  I haven't had the opportunity
to tow any of these trailers yet and I am interested in some
experienced opinions from others in this group.  Any thoughts on which
one will tow the best with my vehicle (or any other for that matter).
My decision is really going to come down to ease of towing.  I rather
have an F-250 Diesel but that isn't in the cards so I plan to base my
decision on the safest bet possible.

Any other thoughts on my possible selection would be welcomed as well.

Thanks,
Paul
Steve B - 21 Mar 2006 04:38 GMT
>I am realatively new to RV travel and I am in the market for a new
> lightweight travel trailer to tow with my BMW X5 3.0.  The SUV is rated
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks,
> Paul

Do this:

Get a .38 caliber pistol.  Get one bullet.  Go out in the country somewhere.
Load the gun.  Put it to your temple.  Pull the trigger until things go
black.

That way, you will achieve the same result as what you are considering in
the RV realm, but you won't hurt anyone else in the process.

You need to talk to a salesman who doesn't want to sell you the trailer so
bad that he will endanger the lives of innocents to get his commission.

That combination might pull down the road, but just don't hit anything
slippery, go round curves too fast, hit the brakes, drive in windy
conditions, get near the slip stream of a semi, or anything else that would
blow this feather off the road.

Buy a real vehicle that will handle a lot more than you will be towing.  Or
keep your Beemer and rent hotel rooms.  And if you do tow this bad dream,
let me know where so I can be on the lookout.

Steve
pgmacdonald@gmail.com - 21 Mar 2006 05:08 GMT
Interesting response but I'm not surprised.  I've been to three
different RV dealers and they all assure me that I'm fine with any of
the options I've listed.  Moreover, they indicate the desire to direct
me to folks who own similar trailers and who tow with a similar
vehicle.  The only reason I even bothered to pose the question in this
newsgroup is because of previous posts from other individuals who seem
to have the same opinion as you do.

I'm out of RV dealers in the area.  Could it be that they are all
uninformed and/or reckless?  If so, could someone recommend an RV
dealer in Canada that will give me an honest answer?

Thanks...and I think I'll pass on the .38.
Paul
Steve B - 21 Mar 2006 05:55 GMT
> Interesting response but I'm not surprised.  I've been to three
> different RV dealers and they all assure me that I'm fine with any of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks...and I think I'll pass on the .38.
> Paul

Pardon me for being blunt, but I have heard this question from a hundred or
so souls who wanted information regarding underpowered underweight (or both)
tow vehicles pulling overweight loads.  And then they were offended by the
answers posted.

So, let start new.

Welcome to RVing.  It is infections and addicting.  And, like any addiction,
it can cause common sense, caution, and good judgment to be left in a
mayonnaise jar on the back porch when we indulge in this addiction.

The goal of any RV is to go out and have a good time, do it safely, and
return home.  In that process, you must wend your way through a minefield of
semi truck tire carcasses, live deer, live idiots driving motor vehicles,
wind, weather, ice, dumped tranny fluid and antifreeze, surprises that jump
out and go boo, and a thousand other real situations.  Bad enough if you are
just in your regular car, but now you got this big heavy thing strapped to
your backside, and you can't just hit a button and turn it loose.

So, you want to control this beast.  You ever see an elephant handler.  He
uses a small stick.  Ever seen what happens when that elephant goes crazy
and does what it wants to do?  It ain't pretty, and that little stick is
useless.  You don't want no little stick.  You want something that will
control that beast that can kill you.

I have seen a lot of highway accidents.  They had many causes.  Driver
inattention, fatigue, equipment failure, inexperienced driver, weather, bad
luck, brain farts, lots of reasons.  But, I have seen many a RV rig in a
ditch because the hauling setup wasn't adequate.  Too small a tow vehicle,
too big a load.  Then something happened.  Someone swerved.  A gust of wind.
And off she goes into the next zip code.

Why do you disdain a 250 as a tow vehicle and insist on the Beemer?

Remember this:  whatever you choose as a tow vehicle, and whatever
trailer/setup you choose ............

you are betting your life on it ......... and the lives of your passengers
........... and the lives of others on the road you don't even know
.............

The forces of X,000# going down the road at XX mph are infinite.  It's like
having a dog on a leash.  A good leash is important, but once the dog
approaches a certain size, anything can happen if it takes off on you.

Choose wisely, and ask RVers.  Salesman want to make the sale.  Go to
rec.outdoors.rv-travel and ask questions.  BUT, be prepared to be flamed,
and not treated nicely.

The nice thing is that they will tell you the truth.  And a lot of these
people drive RVs around 24/7 365 days a year.  They know just a slight bit
more than a salesman as to what really goes on in the real world.

Good luck.  Enjoy your RV, whatever you end up with.  I have personally
owned and driven "hoodoo" RVs.  Those that were overloaded, under weight,
and in many ways unsafe.  But I was stupid, and God was looking out for me.
Others didn't fare as well.

Steve
Chris Cowles - 22 Mar 2006 02:38 GMT
> ....  And then they were offended by the answers posted.

Maybe because the answers are posted in an offensive manner?

I'm not disagreeing with most of the opinions, only the tone with which
they're expressed.
Signature

Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL

Gene - 22 Mar 2006 18:09 GMT
>> ....  And then they were offended by the answers posted.
>
>Maybe because the answers are posted in an offensive manner?
>
>I'm not disagreeing with most of the opinions, only the tone with which
>they're expressed.

 I knew that when I'd posted my first questions, I'd get some
responses better left for a playground fight...You have some who are
polite, some who aren't and some who have forgotten what it was like
to be a newbie :)
Lindakay - 21 Mar 2006 15:00 GMT
> Interesting response but I'm not surprised.  I've been to three
> different RV dealers and they all assure me that I'm fine with any of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Thanks...and I think I'll pass on the .38.
> Paul

If you're in Ontario, Canada, Try Sicard Holiday Campers in Smithville,
ON

Here's link to their web site with a location map:

http://www.sicardrv.com/map.htm

If you're not located in Ontario - it's worth the telephone call to
discuss this.

These folks here are experienced in RVs, and they don't *deal* in this
to make a living and are putting your safety before their pockets.

They post opinions based on experience.

Your other alternative is to take your dealer's recommendations to talk
to folks who have this arrangement for towing and get the other
customer's opinions too.

Lindakay
John Andrews - 21 Mar 2006 05:22 GMT
> I am realatively new to RV travel and I am in the market for a new
> lightweight travel trailer to tow with my BMW X5 3.0.  The SUV is rated
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks,
> Paul

Paul, I suggest you look at http://www.tab-rv.com/ for something
you can pull safely.  (Don't do the gun thing, its as unsafe as
pulling a 19' trailer with the short wheelbase no-chassis BMW SUV!)

Signature

John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee

Will Sill - 21 Mar 2006 12:51 GMT
I see where pgmacdonald@gmail.com contributed:
>I am realatively new to RV travel and I am in the market for a new
>lightweight travel trailer to tow with my BMW X5 3.0.  The SUV is rated
>for 6,000 lbs.  I've towed with it before and, unlike other mid-sized
>SUVs I've heard of, it does quite well.

PLEASE don't do it.   I have no doubt your Beemer Jeep is wonderful
and can tow 6,000 lbs.   It can also leap tall buildings with a single
bound, etc.  What it CANNOT do is safely _control_ anything much
bigger than a snowmobile trailer.  Regardless of what RV salespeople
tell you.

Safe towing is NOT about power.  You can quite literally tow any known
TT with a garden tractor.

Here is some free advice from the perspective of a half-century of
towing experience:

====================

It is my firmly-held opinion that  - on average - manufacturers'
maximum tow ratings are optimistic and presume near-ideal
conditions and a fair amount of operator skill. I continue to
recommend that people buying equipment to tow (or be towed) try
to stay well *under* the maximum. I like a 75% target, on the
basis that it provides a safety/reliability/comfort cushion for
steep grades, bad roads, and emergency maneuvers.  In recent
years as the bulk of traffic has moved over to the interstate
system, I've become increasingly concerned with the number of
people who sincerely believe it is OK to drag their long long
tri-axle trailer (at 125% of tow rating) at 75 mph with their
leetl pick-em-up.

    [There is even the Hensley hitch character going about    
    like a side show barker with his video showing an    
    Intrepid hauling a 9,600 lb trailer! This is FIVE TIMES
    the tow rating, ladies & gents! The product is good but
    the marketing is near-fraudulent.]

Bottom line:  there's a great deal more to tow ratings than
power.  To get some perspective on that, consider the average
over-the-road truck. Typically 400 horsepower or less to haul
80,000 pounds.  Do your own math.

And consider this reasoning for a 75% recomendtion:

There is pretty general agreement that it is unwise and possibly
dangerous to EXCEED maximum ratings, but many of us with long
trailering experience have found that tow rating information is
often misleading - or at least not applicable to everyone.

1. The tow rating is ALWAYS a maximum figure, and is as large as the
manufacturer dares make it. They hope you will buy their stuff for
towing.  Their rating may or may not be right for you.  Every maker
has his own methods of setting tow ratings. Some are conservative
and some are ludicrously over-stated (many Jeep Cherokees were rated
at 5,000 lbs, and IMO are hopelessly overloaded at that figure).

2. MOST tow ratings (nothing personal or specific vs your brand)
do not allow for long steep grades - up or (especially) down.

3. Most tow ratings make no allowance for bad road conditions.

4. Most tow ratings are accompanied by asterisks that call attention
to special equipment "required". Your rig may not have those features.

5. Most tow ratings make no allowance whatever for emergency
maneuvers.  I assure you your vehicle WILL NOT turn or stop as
fast or as safely with the maximum load as it will with a lot less.
The difference can be dramatic. Don't believe me?  Try a few tactics
in a large parking lot.

6. Vehicle tow ratings make no allowance for the DRIVER'S "tow
rating".  No insult intended, but if you have to ask how much your
rig will tow, you have neither the experience or the knowledge to
handle the maximum load safely.  IMO.

7. One of the most-overlooked factors in safe towing is a COMBINED
maximum (GCWR = Gross Combined Weight Rating, often only found in
a towing guide) that dictates a much lighter-than-maximum TOWED load.
Most of the weight of cargo & passengers in the tow vehicle must be
deducted from the permissible towed load to find the true rating.
Some towing guides appear to gloss over this issue because the
marketing types want to put the best possible face on their product.

8. What is reasonably safe and comfortable at 45 mph may well be a
lethal weapon at 75.  Tow ratings, IMO, do NOT reflect any respect for
this hazard.  

9. An internal combustion engine loses about 2 1/2 to 3% efficiency
per thousand feet.  You can easily lose 15-18% in the mountains
unless you have a turbocharger or supercharger.

10.  Regardless of weight ratings, SUV's and "1/2'-ton" pickups are
mostly useless for serious towing.  They will handle pop-ups and even
some of the short "lite" trailers - and will haul yer big one out to
the lake if you are careful.  But competent handling of a large TT
requires a long wheelbase & short overhang.  

Someone once wrote: "You can tow anything with anything - the question
is how far, how safely?"

BOTTOM LINE:  IF you trust the experienced trailerists who have been
there and done that and don't want to go back, you will not exceed
about 75% of the rated maximum.  The number is of course not writ by
the finger of God on a stone tablet - it is merely an indication that
you should stay well below the manufacturer's maximum allowance if you
want a safe, comfortable trip.  Some say the figure ought to be as low
as 50 or 60%.  But except for a few macho braggarts, most experienced
folks agree in principle if not detail with these concerns. For
example, go to http://www.popuptimes.com/archives/75rule.asp
   
==================

Will Sill
"A great many people think they are thinking when they
are merely rearranging their prejudices."
William James
Thoran Walker - 21 Mar 2006 15:57 GMT
Been there, done that....   I had a 97 Dakota regular cab with the V6/5
speed standard.  towing a 23 foot Rockwood TT.

With this setup we were very limited on cargo weight.  You must include the
weight of all the cargo, passangers, the drive, the stuff in the holding
tanks, food, chairs, outdoor rug.  I am a big NASCAR fan and need to fill
the potable tank before dry camping at the track.  Even this added weight
would change the way the unit would handle.  Please add up the weight of all
the gear that you will be bringing with you and leave a good 15 to 20% for
everyones safety.

Towing on the highway was the worst,  the trailer wash coming off the
tractor trailers would send me into a panic.  The trailer would start
swaying, and the truck was too small (in weight and wheel base) to control
this motion and would start swaying.  The tail wagging the dog.  and this
was with the dual cam sway control system from Reese.  Even having the
spring bars set overly tight did not have any effect...

   This combo also had issues with climbing hills.  Just about every hill
that I encountered the truck would bog down and I would have to shift down
to 4th gear.  Going through central NY (on the trip to Watkins Glen) I had
to drop into 3rd just to make it up some of the hills.  not that the hills
were that steep,  Its that the truck just did not have the power to get the
job done....

I have since replaced the truck with an '04 Chevy with the Duramax/Allison,
better power, more weight, longer wheel base.  while the truck is overkill
for the trailer,  the camping experience is much more enjoyable.  Looking
back at towing that trailer with the  Dakota (tow rating of like #8000)  was
stupid.   I must have looked like an idiot for towing that trailer with such
a small truck.  I certainly felt like one.

it does not take a wise Person to learn from ones experience,  but a wise
one will learn from someone else's.
EktarEd - 21 Mar 2006 15:43 GMT
> I am realatively new to RV travel and I am in the market for a new
> lightweight travel trailer to tow with my BMW X5 3.0.  The SUV is rated
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks,
> Paul

For what you are planning to spend on a small TT you can purchase a used
small Class C in great condition and tow the Beamer behind it. I drive a
Suzuki Grand Vitara which is a Small frame under SUV with not as much
power as a Beamer, but I would not think of towing anything with it even
if it had the power. This is the combination we use and find it totally
adequate in all instances.
William Boyd - 22 Mar 2006 02:52 GMT
> I am realatively new to RV travel and I am in the market for a new
> lightweight travel trailer to tow with my BMW X5 3.0.  The SUV is rated
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks,
> Paul

Well Paul I suppose you have drawn an opinion of our group
here to be a slight bit hostile with inexperienced RVer.
But I would like to say, they give advice the way a vast
amount of experience dictates. They are not trying to sell
you any thing, they are not trying to make a buck. Your
vehicle that you identified as a prospective tow vehicle is
not an rv tow vehicle. Yes you could pull things around town
and parking lits. Because it might have the power to do so.
But out on the high way things are just a little different.
It takes a great deal of brawn in a vehicle to be the boss
in a towing team and the BMW X5 does not have it. As have
already been said, the salesmen is interested in a profit
for their pocket. Desperate people will do desperate things,
and along now any used car salesman and all RV salesmen are
trying to make ends meet just like you. They would like to
be honest but as you said it is just not in the cards. You
do not need an F-250 diesel to pull what you want either,
but that is at the other end of the spectrum, the BMW is not
even in the spectrum.

Signature

BILL P.

2004, 2500 SLT Quad Cab, Dodge Ram,
SLT, SWB, 2WD,
5.9 HO Turbo Diesel, 48RE Auto Trans,
Anti-Spin 3.73 Dif.Rhino Liner,
Husky 16K. Voyager Controller
2005, 27RL Wildcat, DT/PC Wi-Fi.
Trojan Batteries, 600watt Inverter
Dual EU2000i Hondas
Just Me and Dog

tat-2 - 22 Mar 2006 05:57 GMT
Have you considered purchasing a class C or A motorhome and tow your BMW.
This would be much safer for you and those around you.

Ed

>I am realatively new to RV travel and I am in the market for a new
> lightweight travel trailer to tow with my BMW X5 3.0.  The SUV is rated
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks,
> Paul
Jim Hill - 30 Mar 2006 17:55 GMT
> I am realatively new to RV travel and I am in the market for a new
> lightweight travel trailer to tow with my BMW X5 3.0.  The SUV is rated
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thanks,
> Paul

This post is a little late, but here's my experience towing an 18' Terry
Resort travel trailer with a '91 S-10 4-door Blazer 4x4. I was able to
tow the trailer safely, and took a trip to Alaska. Big trucks affected
the trailer, but I had no trouble correcting. However driving in
mountains wasn't much fun due to lack of power. I don't like to hold up
other motorists and pull over to let them pass. By the time I got up to
speed, I had another line of cars behind me. Should you decide to take
the gamble, I would suggest the following: Weigh the trailer before
making a purchase, estimate wet weigh, and allow a comfortable margin
between actual weights and 6000 lbs. Install a transmission temperature
gage. Get a digital gage; analog gages have poor resolution at higher
temperatures where you would be concerned. If your trailer brake
controller has a manual means of applying brakes, try to mount it where
it is easily accessible while driving. In my experience, electric brake
controllers don't work very well and you can apply extra braking on
emergency stops. Also, should the trailer start swinging, you can apply
trailer breaks and accelerate gently to regain control.

Good luck, Jim (If you use my email, delete a J. It won't work otherwise)

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