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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / April 2006Brake Failure
The following question and answer appear in the "Coach & Chassis" column written by Wes Caughlan on Page 76 of the May 2006 "MotorHome Magazine." <quote> We have a 2001 Class A motorhome with air-over-hydraulic brakes. Our brakes have gone out several times without warning. It doesn't matter if it is in the mountains or flat stop-and-go traffic. We have had the motorhome checked after each occasion, but no one can tell us what is causing it. It seems to occur after my husband applies the brakes several times very hard. You hear air discharging, and then the brake light turns on at the same time you press on the brake pedal. Then, the brake pedal goes all the way to the floor. Last year we had to run into the woods to keep from going over a cliff because the brakes failed. Prior to this we were sitting at a turnout for 20 minutes just in case the brakes were hot. The minute we pulled out, my husband applied the brakes and the pedal went to the floor. Do you have any answers? I get tires of paying high-dollar shop prices when the shop can find nothing wrong and does nothing. Pam Jeffries Lake Providence, Louisiana You describe the classic symptoms of wet brake fluid, Pam. Motorhome brake systems breathe in and out every day whether they are used or not. Brake fluid absorbs moisture in the air and gradually becomes saturated with water. When brake fluid gets saturated with water, its boiling point declines dramatically. Hard braking turns it to steam, which causes the brake pedal to go to the floor. Once the brake fluid cools, everything is back to normal. That's why the service shops can't find anything wrong. Have your brake fluid completely flushed and replaced with Ford high-temperature, DOT 3 brake fluid (Part No. PM-1/FIR 002092). Then put "brake fluid change every two years" on your maintenance schedule. You will find this requirement on Ford's maintenance schedule, and we've tried for years to get it on all chassis manufacturers' maintenance schedules. Once the brake fluid has been flushed and replaced, inspect your brake lines for their proximity to hot engine parts such as exhaust manifolds and pipes. IF the lines are in close proximity to the parts, purchase heat-resistant insulation and wrap the brake lines with it. The combination of fresh, high-temperature, Ford DOT 3 brake fluid and brake-line insulation should make your brakes perform properly under all future operating conditions. <end quote>  SignatureD.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762 dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com Sell the rig or die, those are your choices! NM > The following question and answer appear in the "Coach & Chassis" column > written by Wes Caughlan on Page 76 of the May 2006 "MotorHome Magazine." [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > <end quote> > Sell the rig or die, those are your choices! > [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >> >><end quote> I guess this idiot wants some one else to die. There must be a mechanic that can repair the problem. What is your answer David? > The following question and answer appear in the "Coach & Chassis" column > written by Wes Caughlan on Page 76 of the May 2006 "MotorHome Magazine." [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > <end quote> > What is your answer David? I wasn't asked the question about the brake failure; Wes Caughlan was. Wes answered the question, and--based on the information provided--I find no fault with his answer. SignatureD.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762 dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com >> What is your answer David? > > I wasn't asked the question about the brake failure; Wes Caughlan was. Wes > answered the question, and--based on the information provided--I find no > fault with his answer. I wondered why you started the thread with a quote and didn't make a comment of your own. I just wanted to see what you had to say about the subject. >>> What is your answer David? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > comment of your own. I just wanted to see what you had to say about the > subject. I think it's a most interesting subject--particularly considering some of the outrageous claims made here. Mr. Sill claims that hydraulic brake systems are sealed so that they cannot absorb moisture, while even Delphi acknowledges that moisture *is* transmitted through their brake hoses. http://delphi.com/pdf/ppd/chsteer/br_hose_assy.pdf states: "Delphi Brake Hose Assemblies feature low expansion rates, low moisture transmission, and high/low temperature resistance." We can see that they don't claim *no* moisture transmission; they merely claim "low" moisture transmission. This statement clearly acknowledges that moisture *is* transmitted through brake hoses. SignatureD.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762 dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com >>>It seems to occur after my husband applies the brakes several times very hard.<<< How many people here have applied " SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) >>>It seems to occur after my husband applies the brakes several times very >>>hard.<<< How many people here have applied " SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) >>>It seems to occur after my husband applies the brakes several times very >>>hard.<<< How many people here have applied " the brakes several times very hard" enough times to notice a pattern ? It may very well be water in the brake fluid but that guy has to stop driving and let someone drive who knows how to look ahead and anticipate their stops. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) > The following question and answer appear in the "Coach & Chassis" column > written by Wes Caughlan on Page 76 of the May 2006 "MotorHome Magazine." [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > brake light turns on at the same time you press on the brake pedal. Then, > the brake pedal goes all the way to the floor. There's a good possibility that the hydraulic master cylinder is flakey, but who knows for sure without the machinery in front of them? Such failures with a master cylinder can be an off and on sort of thing, it's happened to me on straight hydraulic systems in cars. SignatureJon JPinOH >>The following question and answer appear in the "Coach & Chassis" column >>written by Wes Caughlan on Page 76 of the May 2006 "MotorHome Magazine." [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > with a master cylinder can be an off and on sort of thing, it's happened to > me on straight hydraulic systems in cars. Don't know if this helps but I had a 1990 Ford F250 gas truck that had brake failure. Nothing unusual to precede it, just happened occasionally and unpredictably. We took it in to the Ford dealer several times, but each time they could find nothing. Then one day they called us and told us to bring the truck in. There was either a recall or a technical service bulletin. They wouldn't tell us what they did, but we didn't have to pay anything. I suggest you research the chassis and see if there is some kind of known similar behavior. JMTCW Signature----------- Janet Wilder The Road Princess http://janetwilder.blogspot.com We had the same problem. The problem turned out to be the sliders that the disc brake calipers slide on. The were dirty. We cleaned all of them with a brass wire brush, lubed the sliders with some lithium grease. No problems for the last 10 years. > The following question and answer appear in the "Coach & Chassis" column > written by Wes Caughlan on Page 76 of the May 2006 "MotorHome Magazine." [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > <end quote> Tis quite obvious the intent of this post from the party who made it. While I have issues with Will over his insistence that brake systems are SEALED, this is a useless post. Anyone giving an opinion even from an expert from a distance without actually seeing the problem, their answer is an educated guess at best and more likely wrong than right. My Ford based MH suffered from an occasionally bout of brake failure, all of a sudden the peddle would got to the floor. NO external sign of a problem. I spoke with a mechanic at the Ford dealership and spoke to him about the problem. He said he had ran across a couple cases where there was some small foreign object in the master cyl and would get caught between the seal between the front and rear sections and when it happened, the pedal would go to the floor until on another press and the object would free itself and all would be working again. With that info I disassembled the MC cleaned and took the old saying "cleanliness is next to godliness" real serious. Have never had the problem reoccurr again and that has been over 6 yrs ago. Mickey >While I have issues with Will over his insistence that brake systems >are SEALED, this is a useless post. > >Anyone giving an opinion even from an expert from a distance without >actually seeing the problem, their answer is an educated guess at best >and more likely wrong than right. Yabut - Sill is an expert on brake issues, having experimented by soaking his nuts in brake fluid and then pronouncing he knows all there is to know about brakes. Canoli >>While I have issues with Will over his insistence that brake systems >>are SEALED, this is a useless post. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Canoli Everytime this comes up, I'm sooooo glad I had the foresight to use finishing nails. Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >> Yabut - Sill is an expert on brake issues, having experimented by >> soaking his nuts in brake fluid and then pronouncing he knows all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Everytime this comes up, I'm sooooo glad I had the foresight to use >finishing nails. You nailed your nuts to the wall? I admire men of science who test theories with actual experiments, but this seems a little extreme. Canoli >> Yabut - Sill is an expert on brake issues, having experimented by >> soaking his nuts in brake fluid and then pronouncing he knows all >> there is to know about brakes. >> >> Canoli >Everytime this comes up, I'm sooooo glad I had the foresight to use >finishing nails. I dunno, bill. It would also sound kinda strange to hear you talk about soaking your nails. GB in NC >>>Yabut - Sill is an expert on brake issues, having experimented by >>>soaking his nuts in brake fluid and then pronouncing he knows all [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > GB in NC Nice try, but I put "finishing" in on purpose. But although he cheated a little, Canoli found a workaround. Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >>>> Yabut - Sill is an expert on brake issues, having experimented by >>>> soaking his nuts in brake fluid and then pronouncing he knows all [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Nice try, but I put "finishing" in on purpose. But although he > cheated a little, Canoli found a workaround. Perhaps you'd have gotten different results with nails that had already finished. SignatureKevin W. Miller >>>>>Yabut - Sill is an expert on brake issues, having experimented by >>>>>soaking his nuts in brake fluid and then pronouncing he knows all [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Perhaps you'd have gotten different results with nails that had already > finished. Depends on what they finished. I don't what the nails are up to out there in the shop at night when nobody but the spikes and tacks are watching. Hell, for all I know, the spikes are the instigators. Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >> Yabut - Sill is an expert on brake issues, having experimented by >> soaking his nuts in brake fluid and then pronouncing he knows all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Everytime this comes up, I'm sooooo glad I had the foresight to use > finishing nails. I'm trying to remember - did you nail down an answer? SignatureJon JPinOH > The following question and answer appear in the "Coach & Chassis" column > written by Wes Caughlan on Page 76 of the May 2006 "MotorHome Magazine." [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > brake light turns on at the same time you press on the brake pedal. Then, > the brake pedal goes all the way to the floor. <snip> > <end quote> I don't know about other states, but here in CA if you have a privately owned vehicle used for emergency services (private ambulance, fire engine, etc...) and driven on public roads, you need an Emergency Vehicle Permit issued by the CHP. To receive this the first time, an inspector comes and checkes the vehicle for all the necessary equipment and also does an inspection of the entire vehicle. In addition to that, you have to provide a certificate showing your vehicle passed a "Brake Certification" at a state licenced facility. A Brake Certification is different than a Brake Inspection. A Certification involves taking each wheel's brake apart and inspecting each component as well as checking the rest of the braking system. A Certification on a F250 used to run about $850. Fire apparatus could run between $2-3,000. Once you did this, you had to repeat it every other year. Of course, State, City, County and other government owned vehicles were exempt from the Certification requirement. All that to say there are places out there that can/will find your brake issues. It does cost $$$ though. If you are more willing to kill yourself on the road (or someone else) than to spend money to fix it, then you will continue to get what you got. You need to look for a better shop. FMB |
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