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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / July 2006

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Dialogue about Jesus Christ

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booktwo@lorenzocrescini.it - 25 Jun 2006 06:07 GMT
Jesus defeated death not for him but for all of us. In order to open to
all us the door towards a happy eternity. He defeated death to let us
win that "useless passion" that is the short life on earth, opening
prospectives of infinite when every way seemed closed by the black wall
of a final and inevitable end. Here we will talk about His
Resurrection, trying to answer some questions as the ones which follow
for example:

- Why can we understand the sense of our life only thinking of eternity
?
- What are the reasons of our Faith?
- And what about people who do not have Faith?
- Why death?
- Can reason and common sense help us in our Faith?
- What is the mistake in the hypothesis which deny Jesus Christ?

Sito Web:   www.lorenzocrescini.it/dialogue

E-Mail:       ricercapap@lorenzocrescini.it

To all the readers a loving greeting
Lorenzo Crescini
Ken Harrison - 25 Jun 2006 07:23 GMT
> Jesus defeated death not for him but for all of us.

Talk about SPAM!
Dave in Lake Villa - 25 Jun 2006 19:59 GMT
'Jesus defeated death not for him but for all of us.
Talk about SPAM!'

REPLY:  Hardly Spam  ;  its grounded in historical evidence both
Christian and non Christian.  Now is the time for you to do research on
this most important issue by going here : www.impactapologetics.com  .
See the book called : 'I dont have enough faith to be an Atheist'.  Very
scholarly written.   Be a dedicated Seeker and dont have a closed heart
and mind. Regards.
Dave Lee - 25 Jun 2006 20:08 GMT
> 'Jesus defeated death not for him but for all of us.
> Talk about SPAM!'
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> scholarly written.   Be a dedicated Seeker and dont have a closed heart
> and mind. Regards.

What kind of rig does he drive??
Eregon - 26 Jun 2006 01:04 GMT
>> 'Jesus defeated death not for him but for all of us.
>> Talk about SPAM!'
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> What kind of rig does he drive??

The same one that "Dave in Lake Villa" <DaveInLakeVilla@webtv.net> does - the
VERY same one... <EG>

Signature

Quotations from Tom Gorrell:

"A wing nut without a left or right is just a nut.  Which best describes me"
"I'm sorry about the erratic weather and must admit it's been caused by the
pinko commie Clinton & Reno supporters."
"I am hiding nothing, other than the fact that I'm homosexual."

Quotation from the Graphic Queer: "I have always advocated the death of the
human being and I see that I was right all along. This earth will be so much
better off once we are no longer part of the mix."

Dave in Lake Villa - 28 Jun 2006 23:23 GMT
''Jesus defeated death not for him but for all of us. Talk about SPAM!'
REPLY: Hardly Spam ; its grounded in historical evidence both
Christian and non Christian. Now is the time for you to do research on
this most important issue by going here : www.impactapologetics.com .
See the book called : 'I dont have enough faith to be an Atheist'. Very
scholarly written.   Be a dedicated Seeker and dont have a closed
heart and mind. Regards.

What kind of rig does he drive??

REPLY: I drive a Class B motorhome ; on a Dodge 3500 .  Jesus is my Co
Pilot.  Want to go to heaven after this very short life ?  Then make him
your Lord , Saviour, and King.  He is the Creator . Have you ever taken
the time to really research Jesus Christ ?  He is very real. Start here
:www.impactapologetics.com  then  go to : www.answersingenesis.org  .
Dont let your pride overrule you.  Jesus said he was the Creator who
will be your final Judge -- thats why its worth a good look/see.  
Ken Harrison - 26 Jun 2006 06:04 GMT
> 'Jesus defeated death not for him but for all of us. Talk about
> SPAM!'
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> enough faith to be an Atheist'.  Very scholarly written.   Be a
> dedicated Seeker and dont have a closed heart and mind. Regards.

Before I would remark on "scholarly" writing, I would see to it that my
spelling and grammar were consistently scholarly.  Spelling and grammar
are not "leaps of faith."

KH
Dave in Lake Villa - 28 Jun 2006 23:39 GMT
'Before I would remark on "scholarly" writing, I would see to it that my
spelling and grammar were consistently scholarly. Spelling and grammar
are not "leaps of faith."
KH '

REPLY:   Fortunately,  ones spelling, grammar,  income,  bank account,
number of cars owned,  size of ones Rig,  achievements,  trophies won,
et al, ad infinitum....doesnt come into play when we are considering
inviting God into our lives ;  and....it really isnt a very big 'leap of
faith' at all !    All the evidence is right there for you to peruse and
consider and the only giant leap might be ones own pride.
William Boyd - 26 Jun 2006 01:50 GMT
>Jesus defeated death not for him but for all of us. In order to open to
>all us the door towards a happy eternity. He defeated death to let us
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>  

I would think this would be more appropriate on another news group that
caters to religion.
We talk about RV and camping here, when we want to talk about religion
we go else where.
Each individual has a right to religion as well as from religion.

Signature

BILL P.
Just
Me
&
DOG

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

jo - 28 Jun 2006 20:10 GMT
well said.....I would have been nastier,but who would care?

>>Jesus defeated death not for him but for all of us. In order to open to
>>all us the door towards a happy eternity. He defeated death to let us
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> go else where.
> Each individual has a right to religion as well as from religion.
Dave in Lake Villa - 28 Jun 2006 23:43 GMT
'well said.....I would have been nastier,but who would care?'

REPLY:  Jo,  No need to come up with nastiness on this issue ;  no need
to demonstrate hostility on the topic of The Creator .  But it is
something that you and everyone one else on earth needs to seriously
consider as 'the'  most important subject matter.  You just cant get any
bigger than that !   If youre inclind, please go here :
www.impactapologetics.com   .
Pepperoni - 29 Jun 2006 03:49 GMT
Please add  "OT"  to off- topic posts.  This allows our members to employ
their idiot filters .  Many of our readers have limited time and slow
connections.

When in doubt,  the  newsgroup  name often describes the on topic arena.
"RV"  stands for recreational vehicle,  not Revised Version.

Your help in this matter would be appreciated.

Pepperoni

> 'well said.....I would have been nastier,but who would care?'
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> bigger than that !   If youre inclind, please go here :
> www.impactaxxxpologetics.com   .
Frank Tabor - 29 Jun 2006 04:04 GMT
>Please add  "OT"  to off- topic posts.  This allows our members to employ
>their idiot filters .  Many of our readers have limited time and slow
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Pepperoni

Filtering on *@webtv.net will take care of 99% of it.
Signature

Frank Tabor

Dave in Lake Villa - 29 Jun 2006 13:01 GMT
'Please add "OT" to off- topic posts. This allows our members to employ
their idiot filters . Many of our readers have limited time and slow
connections.
When in doubt, the newsgroup name often describes the on topic arena.
"RV" stands for recreational vehicle, not Revised Version.
Your help in this matter would be appreciated.
Pepperoni'

REPLY:  It wasnt myself who was the original poster, otherwise, i might
have used 'OT'  just for formality .  But...while we are on the
topic....have you taken the time to thoroughly reseach the historical
Jesus Christ ?  There is a large booklet available called : The 12
Points that Prove Christianity , written by Dr. Norman Geisler which
lists all the evidence for the Theistic God of the Bible, Jesus Christ ,
the accuracy of the New Testament, Moral Absolutes, etc... so you can be
brought up to speed  allowing you to make a very rational decision on
this most important issue .  If your eternity hangs in the balance, then
why wouldnt a person do this ?  Or, at least do a google under :
Evidence for Jesus Christ.  As a Skeptic, i fully researched the
evidence and it was enough for me to become a Believer...as many notable
figures in history have. Regards.
Dave in Lake Villa - 28 Jun 2006 23:33 GMT
'I would think this would be more appropriate on another news group that
caters to religion.
We talk about RV and camping here, when we want to talk about religion
we go else where.'

REPLY:  I cant think of anything more relavent to your life and your
travelling than Jesus Christ ;  if you got killed the next time you got
in your Camping Rig, youd soon find out if he was real or not. Besides,
im not discussing 'religion' here....im talking about a personal
relationship with your Creator in whom you were ultimately designed for.

'Each individual has a right to religion as well as from religion.'

REPLY:  Did you know that EVERY person on earth follows some sort of 'a
religion' ?  If its not a major world religion, then it might be one or
more of the following sub-categories :  Hedonism,  Narcisicism , Secular
Humanism,  Atheism,  or others.   While its true you have the right to
ignore God whom you know ,intrinsically,  has to exist because the
Universe is quite provable to be a personal one with incredible razor
edge precision and design....I would like to encourage you to give him a
chance with your life and make room for him amongst your many lifelong
pursuits and hobbys.  Can u imagine the ramifications to ignoring the
Creator / your Creator all your life .. only to meet him face to face
all of a sudden upon your death ?  It is indeed a very sobering thought.
Regards.
Dan Listermann - 29 Jun 2006 14:12 GMT
> REPLY:  Did you know that EVERY person on earth follows some sort of 'a
> religion' ?  If its not a major world religion, then it might be one or
> more of the following sub-categories :  Hedonism,  Narcisicism , Secular
> Humanism,  Atheism,  or others.

Is it also your opinion that EVERY person on earth follows some sort of
superstition?
Dave in Lake Villa - 29 Jun 2006 17:46 GMT
Did you know that EVERY person on earth follows some sort of 'a
religion' ? If its not a major world religion, then it might be one or
more of the following sub-categories : Hedonism, Narcisicism , Secular
Humanism, Atheism, or others.

Is it also your opinion that EVERY person on earth follows some sort of
superstition?

REPLY:  What led you to that conclusion please ?  Thanks.
Dan Listermann - 29 Jun 2006 20:09 GMT
> Did you know that EVERY person on earth follows some sort of 'a
> religion' ? If its not a major world religion, then it might be one or
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> REPLY:  What led you to that conclusion please ?  Thanks.

Perhaps you can tell us the differences between religion and superstition.
Dave in Lake Villa - 29 Jun 2006 21:03 GMT
'Is it also your opinion that EVERY person on earth follows some sort of
superstition?

REPLY: What led you to that conclusion please ? Thanks.

Perhaps you can tell us the differences between religion and
superstition.'

REPLY:  Are you indicating that belief in a Theistic Creator is
'superstition' ?  How did you arrive at that conclusion based on your
research ? Thanks.  
Dan Listermann - 30 Jun 2006 15:34 GMT
> 'Is it also your opinion that EVERY person on earth follows some sort of
> superstition?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> 'superstition' ?  How did you arrive at that conclusion based on your
> research ? Thanks.

Viewed from the outside, it is painfully obvious.  Imagine you just arrived
from Mars and started to study the religious behavior you found on Earth.
Dave in Lake Villa - 30 Jun 2006 19:43 GMT
'Are you indicating that belief in a Theistic Creator is
'superstition' ? How did you arrive at that conclusion based on your
research ? Thanks.

Viewed from the outside, it is painfully obvious. Imagine you just
arrived from Mars and started to study the religious behavior you found
on Earth.'

REPLY:   Well, if you think the 133 very narrow scientific parameters
(so far discovered) of our Solar System which are all needed,
simultaneously, so earth can survive and so humankind could be
started....arrived without the intervention of a Personal Mind and Will
(or in other words ' willy-nilly ')...perhaps you can explain how and
why they all decided to get together to accomplish this specific goal ;
was it just a cosmic tea party that turned into a productive meeting of
some sort , in your estimation ?

If i came from Mars I would certainly know , intrinsically, that
something could not arrive from nothing without a willful cause behind
it.  In fact,  I would break out into horrific laughter that many
Earthlings think they were the product of accidental / ancient Pond Scum
which developed into a 206 bone human being with a brain informational
capacity far exceeding The LIbrary of Congress ... all so they can feel
justified in rejecting the most obvious of all things :  That  a
personal Creator has to exist which is beyond his finite
Creation....which bolsters their ulterior motive of doing life THEIR way
which always involves a good dose of immoral living.

Belief in The Creator isnt 'religion' by the way.... is backed by the
actual Laws of Science  for which many agnostic Scientists are admitting
left and right -- id be pleased to list a few if you are truly
interested ;  contrary to the fairy tale that life arose from dead
matter (Spontaneous Generation) which was totally disproven in the last
century, that fully renders Macro Evolution an utter fraud perpetuated
on the masses.  It will one day play out like this :

Setting : Mrs. Thompsons 3rd Grade Class
Year :  2566

Mrs Thompson :' Class...today we are going to take a look at a 20th
century popular theory which many at that time actually thought was fact
Many believed that a tiny one celled  Pond Protozoa swimming around in
scum with nothing better to do,  became a fully developed 6' tall Human
Being over millions of years, by chance, for no apparent reason....'

(the class roars with uncontrollable laughter  until Mrs. Thompson
regains order...)  

Look friend....its going to be far better for you to stop pretending
that there is no Creator to whom you will one day be responsible to,
than to suppress your God given moral conscience so you do as you darn
well wish.  I was once where you are today, and, there is real freedom
from being set apart from the utter foolishness and being duped by our
present Culture on lifestyle choices and anti-Creator rhetoric.  Turn
from your sins, admit your sins to God, trust Jesus who is historically
verifiable,  tell God you want to live for him and him alone...then
surrender your life to his leadership.  Then you will have eternity with
him instead of getting what you always wanted while here on earth :
Great distance.  Dont go and mess up your entire eternity due to pride.
Please.

Email me if you want to discuss this vital fact, further.  And with
this, i shall conclude this discussion...which IS relevant to your (RV)
life and beyond.

My door is always open ,

Regards, Dave.
Pepperoni - 30 Jun 2006 20:44 GMT
> 'Are you indicating that belief in a Theistic Creator is
> 'superstition' ? How did you arrive at that conclusion based on your
> research ? Thanks.

Theism implies that the Creator made the world and let it run itself.  Deism
implies that the Creator  has a hand in the continued administration of the
Creation.  If you believe that G** is active daily and continuously, you
posit Deism.  It must be terribly lonely as a Theist in this Deistic world.
While your Christ was specific about being present "in the beginning",  His
action in the world  implies a Deistic function.

I know,  Semantics Sucks.

HTH

Pepperoni
Godless Heathen - 01 Jul 2006 03:33 GMT
which IS relevant to your (RV) life and beyond.

No it isn't

My door is always open.

So is the door OUT of this group. don't let it it you on your a** as
you leave
Ken Harrison - 01 Jul 2006 07:09 GMT
> Email me if you want to discuss this vital fact, further.  And with
> this, i shall conclude this discussion.

Now THERE'S a statement I can get behind!

Ken
Dan Listermann - 01 Jul 2006 16:25 GMT
> 'Are you indicating that belief in a Theistic Creator is
> 'superstition' ? How did you arrive at that conclusion based on your
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> was it just a cosmic tea party that turned into a productive meeting of
> some sort , in your estimation ?

Are you aware of how many planets there are in the Universe?  I haven't the
foggiest idea, but I know that there are a real big bunch.   The odds of
these parameters happening on a specific planet are indeed very long, but
"Murphy's Law" has not been repealed.  Given enough opportunities, unless
you can demonstrate that it is physically impossible, not just improbable,
it will likely happen somewhere sometime.  Life seems to have happened here.
We know this because we are part of it.  We also know that it is highly
likely that it has happened elsewhere as well from a Murphy's Law
perspective, but it is also possible that we are the only ones.  It is just
not very probable.

You have to stand back from our little world to get a better perspective on
things.  The Universe does not orbit the Earth anymore.
WhiteSwan - 01 Jul 2006 19:59 GMT
> 'Are you indicating that belief in a Theistic Creator is
> 'superstition' ? How did you arrive at that conclusion based on your
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> arrived from Mars and started to study the religious behavior you found
> on Earth.'

Everywhere I go, Daveinlake Villa is talking his usual Bull S**t!

Why are you such a turd underfoot dave?
Dave in Lake Villa - 29 Jun 2006 18:10 GMT
Do you have enough Faith to be ... an 'Atheist' ???? :

Address:http://www.impactapologetics.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=1&P_ID=264
Godless Heathen - 29 Jun 2006 23:52 GMT
Pepperoni mentioned:
Please add  "OT"  to off- topic posts.
This allows our members to employ
their idiot filters .
Many of our readers have limited time and slow
connections.
When in doubt,  the newsgroup  name often describes the on topic arena.

"RV"  stands for recreational vehicle,  not Revised Version.
Your help in this matter would be appreciated.

BILL P. also mentioned:
Would think this would be more appropriate on another news group that
caters to religion.
We talk about RV and camping here, when we want to talk about religion
we go else where.'

DAVE'S REPLY:  I cant think of anything more relavent to your life and
your travelling than Jesus Christ ;  if you got killed the next time
you got in your Camping Rig, youd soon find out if he was real or not.
Besides, im not discussing 'religion' here....im talking about a
personal relationship with your Creator in whom you were ultimately
designed for.

Why not you tell us exactly what part of "Off Topic" do you fail to
comprehend?

DAVE'S REPLY: But...while we are on the
topic....have you taken the time to thoroughly reseach the historical
Jesus Christ ?

No!...We are were not "ON THE TOPIC"

You've apparently decided to start off making enemies here with your
proselytizing

DAVE'S OT REPLY:Do you have enough Faith to be ... an 'Atheist' ???? :
Address:http://www.impactapologetics.com/product.asp?numRecordPosition=1&P_ID..

Frank T correctly mentioned the following:
Filtering on *...@webtv.net will take care of 99% of it.

Couldn't have said it better myself, as I go off down the highway
wondering why webtv consistently attracts so many profound dense
idjits?
Dave in Lake Villa - 30 Jun 2006 00:37 GMT
'Why not you tell us exactly what part of "Off Topic" do you fail to
comprehend?'

REPLY: Did you mean to say :' Why dont you tell us....' ?    I
understand what Off Topic means ;  there are many Off Topics posted in
this RV NG , so id like to ask you : How come this particular Off Topic
creates hostility within yourself ?  Lastly,  I was not the Original
Poster ... I am just a Responder to the Original Post.  Do u understand
the difference ?

'No!...We are were not "ON THE TOPIC" '

REPLY:  I believe we are since the original posted topic was on Jesus ,
was it not ? I just had a look , and yes...it is the original post.

'You've apparently decided to start off making enemies here with your
proselytizing'

REPLY:  All ive said was that it behooves a person to look intently into
this subject matter since ones eternity may very well be at stake if
Jesus Christ is who he claimed to be (which he confirmed himself to be)
 Ive suggested some good source material in case someone is willing ;
that isnt 'proselytizing' .... its encouragement to be an honest Seeker
for the truth.

May i ask of you, why  are you so intolerant toward this topic and my
admonition for others to investigate The Christian Faith ?  Youre
showing a good deal of hositility ... and i do beleive it goes a bit
deeper than me responding to an 'off topic' post .   Please clarify and
i thank you.
Godless Heathen - 30 Jun 2006 01:18 GMT
Dave in Lake Villa wrote: that isnt 'proselytizing' ....

Yes it is!
(As several others have previously mentioned)
It doesn't apply to RVing and camping, no matter how you wish to
disguise it.

Pepperoni: Please add  "OT"  to off- topic posts.
This allows our members to employ
their idiot filters---------------Plonkability

Frank: Filtering on *...@webtv.net will take care of 99% of
it-------------Plonkability

The Original Poster was an OT troll, as one can easily see by searching
out his many similar posts in other completely inappropriate groups.

Answer this question: am still wondering why webtv consistently
attracts so many profoundly dense idjits?

Awaiting your non-answer
Dave Lee - 30 Jun 2006 03:55 GMT
> Dave in Lake Villa wrote: that isnt 'proselytizing' ....
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Awaiting your non-answer

He's obviously a zealot. If so, then nothing will help.
Dave in Lake Villa - 30 Jun 2006 19:10 GMT
'He's obviously a zealot. If so, then nothing will help.'

REPLY:  Dont you think we are all zealous for something / someone in
life ?  I believe we are.  Theres plenty of things that we make 'our
god' , including : Ilicit sex, hedonism, bigotry,  et al.   If youre
going to be a Zealot, it should be appropriately channeled to what our
ultimate purpose is in life , and ,  that is getting to know The Creator
of the Universe (lest you think the Universe created itself with
extraordinary design and razor edge precision...for no purpose and by
complete accident).
Dave in Lake Villa - 30 Jun 2006 19:06 GMT
'Answer this question: am still wondering why webtv consistently
attracts so many profoundly dense idjits?
Awaiting your non-answer'

REPLY:  What led you to this relative opinion ?
Godless Heathen - 01 Jul 2006 03:36 GMT
> 'Answer this question: am still wondering why webtv consistently
> attracts so many profoundly dense idjits?
> Awaiting your non-answer'
>
> REPLY:  What led you to this relative opinion ?

Your "non-answer" continues to prove this same point-----------As to
why webtv consistently
attracts so many profoundly dense idjits
Jack Eason - 04 Jul 2006 20:13 GMT
[snip]

>May i ask of you, why  are you so intolerant toward this topic and my
>admonition for others to investigate The Christian Faith ?  Youre
>showing a good deal of hositility ... and i do beleive it goes a bit
>deeper than me responding to an 'off topic' post .   Please clarify and
>i thank you.

This is my first post but I believe I can cite at least one reason
that this topic might draw hostility. To lecture another person or a
group on spiritual matters without being asked requires considerable
insensitivity and arrogance. If one reviews the historry of this
particular cult, one finds enormous intolerance, violence, cruelty,
wars, and intellectual vacancy.
Steve B - 04 Jul 2006 22:08 GMT
If one reviews the historry of this
> particular cult, one finds enormous intolerance, violence, cruelty,
> wars, and intellectual vacancy.

I came in late on this.  Which particular cult are we talking about?

Steve
Will Sill - 04 Jul 2006 22:39 GMT
I see where "Steve B" <boozoochavez@zydeco.net> contributed:

"Jack Eason" <jeason@mindspring.com> wrote

> If one reviews the historry of this
>> particular cult, one finds enormous intolerance, violence, cruelty,
>> wars, and intellectual vacancy.

Steve:
>I came in late on this.  Which particular cult are we talking about?

Eason has assumed that because Jim Jones, David Koresh, and the pope
all claim to represent the "Christian" faith, he chooses to call
Christianity a cult.   Sad, but even those of us who ARE Christians
don't do very well as ambassadors.   A pity, too, but this is not a
good forum to try to address the real issues - which are not
"religious", denominational or even cultural.   The Easons of the
world are content to view Christianity with contempt without having a
clue what it's all about, partly because they are looking in vain for
someone who meets THEIR standards rather than God's.

The war in Iraq is OVER. We won.
The battle against Islaamic jihadists rages on..  
Will Sill
Steve B - 05 Jul 2006 01:11 GMT
>I see where "Steve B" <boozoochavez@zydeco.net> contributed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> The battle against Islaamic jihadists rages on..
> Will Sill

And the problem is that most Christians IMHO are invisible.  They just go on
living their lives.  Doing the next right thing.  Trying to help others.
They are the ones that will be taken at the Rapture, and those who will
inherit the earth.  They are the silent, the invisible, the ones who don't
even enter into this conversation because it is futile to argue with idiots.

Believe what you will.  Live your life accordingly, I say.  Each person is
the one who will answer for it ultimately.  If there is no God, no big deal.
If there is, then there's hell to pay.  Each man bets his eternity on it,
and hopes he's right.

As for me and my house, we choose to serve the Lord.

Steve
Ken Harrison - 05 Jul 2006 08:00 GMT
> They are the ones that will be taken at the Rapture, and those who
> will inherit the earth.  They are the silent, the invisible, the ones
> who don't even enter into this conversation because it is futile to
> argue with idiots.

The (so-called) Rapture is, of course, one of the fundamentalist beliefs
that leads those who occupy positions that should be occupied by leaders
to ignore their effect on the environment.  ("What does it matter that
we might hasten the end of life as we know it on the Earth?").

The problem is, this approach ignores all the *other* people in the
world.  I have no problem with fundamentalism, except to the extent that
it impinges on *my* life.  Rapturists can look forward to their reward,
but why are they allowed to drag me into the discussion?  Your rapture
makes my life more difficult.  Why?

Ken
Will Sill - 05 Jul 2006 11:46 GMT
I see where Ken Harrison <sptrain98@earthlink.net> contributed:

>The (so-called) Rapture is, of course, one of the fundamentalist beliefs
>that leads those who occupy positions that should be occupied by leaders
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>but why are they allowed to drag me into the discussion?  Your rapture
>makes my life more difficult.  Why?

I often disagree with Steve, but he pretty well summed up why I spend
very likttle effort arguing with your POV:

:And the problem is that most Christians IMHO are invisible.  They just go on
:living their lives.  Doing the next right thing.  Trying to help others.
:They are the ones that will be taken at the Rapture, and those who will
:inherit the earth.  They are the silent, the invisible, the ones who don't
:even enter into this conversation because it is futile to argue with idiots.

You are NOT "dragged into the discussion" - you volunteered a POV
which is frankly based on a complete lack of understanding.

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Steve B - 05 Jul 2006 16:47 GMT
>> They are the ones that will be taken at the Rapture, and those who
>> will inherit the earth.  They are the silent, the invisible, the ones
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Ken

Because you suffer from guilt and angst over not believing in anything but
yourself?

If it truly doesn't make any difference in you, why the emotions?

Steve
Dan Listermann - 05 Jul 2006 14:22 GMT
If there is no God, no big deal.
> If there is, then there's hell to pay.  Each man bets his eternity on it,
> and hopes he's right.
>
> As for me and my house, we choose to serve the Lord.
>
> Steve

"Pascal's Wager" is a sad reason to believe in a religion.  The big "Mumbo
Jumbo" in the sky will probably not look well on this rationale if such a
thing exists at all.
Will Sill - 05 Jul 2006 15:53 GMT
>"Pascal's Wager" is a sad reason to believe in a religion.  The big "Mumbo
>Jumbo" in the sky will probably not look well on this rationale if such a
>thing exists at all.

I find it interesting that those who profess agnosticism seem to
holler the loudest and most viciously against those who do believe in
a soverign, omnipotent God.  You'd think they could just ignore the
topic, wouldn't ya?

But there's that still small voice of doubt, isn't there?

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Dan Listermann - 05 Jul 2006 18:11 GMT
>>"Pascal's Wager" is a sad reason to believe in a religion.  The big "Mumbo
>>Jumbo" in the sky will probably not look well on this rationale if such a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> But there's that still small voice of doubt, isn't there?

That is a bit presumptuous on you, isn't it?

Perhaps your doubt is exposed in your "Pascal's Wager?"
Steve B - 05 Jul 2006 16:48 GMT
> If there is no God, no big deal.
>> If there is, then there's hell to pay.  Each man bets his eternity on it,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Jumbo" in the sky will probably not look well on this rationale if such a
> thing exists at all.

Well, Dan, that's your opinion, and I respect it.

Steve
Dan Listermann - 05 Jul 2006 18:09 GMT
>> If there is no God, no big deal.
>>> If there is, then there's hell to pay.  Each man bets his eternity on
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Steve

That is nice of you.
Ken Harrison - 07 Jul 2006 08:12 GMT
> And the problem is that most Christians IMHO are invisible.

It isn't a problem, Steve, it is the way it *should* be.  Religion is
too personal to be hung on one's shirt sleeve for all to see.  And since
religion is personal (and even atheism is a religion in one sense of the
word), no person has a right to attempt to change another's beliefs.

The fundamental problem is that each person, as a proselyter, is not
really trying to be religious, he is trying to be *right.*  And trying
to be *right* makes conflicts, and even wars.  And it has been so since
the emergence of the common religions of Judao-Christian times (Judaism,
Christianity, and Islam, all of which share the same god).

More power to you and your rapture.  Just don't try to convince me and
others that your understanding is *right.*  Such understandings are
irrelevant to my understanding.  Ergo, Christian invisibility is to be
desired, not demeaned.

Ken (I may have misspelled "Judao")
Will Sill - 07 Jul 2006 12:12 GMT
I see where Ken Harrison <sptrain98@earthlink.net> contributed:

> Religion is
>too personal to be hung on one's shirt sleeve for all to see.  And since
>religion is personal (and even atheism is a religion in one sense of the
>word), no person has a right to attempt to change another's beliefs.

Sad.

If you knew flood waters had washed a huge hole out of the highway
ahead, would you feel any obligation to warn drivers approaching same?

(Authorities are still looking for the body of one trucker who drove
into such a hole on the interstate highway near here.)

Q:  If there is a hole in the highway you're traveling, does it make
any difference what you believe about it?

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
GBinNC - 07 Jul 2006 12:55 GMT
>I see where Ken Harrison <sptrain98@earthlink.net> contributed:
>
>> Religion is
>>too personal to be hung on one's shirt sleeve for all to see.  And since
>>religion is personal (and even atheism is a religion in one sense of the
>>word), no person has a right to attempt to change another's beliefs.

>If you knew flood waters had washed a huge hole out of the highway
>ahead, would you feel any obligation to warn drivers approaching same?

Here we go with the "belief" versus "knowlege" thing again, Ken. We've
been through this before with Will.

You may as well give up now. He has proven himself truly unable to
comprehend the difference.

GB in NC
Ken Harrison - 08 Jul 2006 07:31 GMT
> Here we go with the "belief" versus "knowlege" thing again, Ken.
> We've been through this before with Will.
>
> You may as well give up now. He has proven himself truly unable to
> comprehend the difference.

Alas, too bad.  His curmudgeonly attitude is sometimes very appealing to
me (I share that "virtue," I might add).  So it is too bad that he can't
recognize his foibles.

Ken
Ken Harrison - 08 Jul 2006 07:26 GMT
> I see where Ken Harrison <sptrain98@earthlink.net> contributed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Sad.

No, not sad; personal.  Quit insisting that you are *right*.  Just
accept that others believe differently and leave them and us alone.

Ken
Jack Eason - 08 Jul 2006 17:20 GMT
>I see where "Steve B" <boozoochavez@zydeco.net> contributed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>The battle against Islaamic jihadists rages on..  
> Will Sill

Given that I was reacting to boorish, aggressive proselytizing by
persons who seemed bigoted, intolerant and ignorant to me, I take your
point that my labeling Christianity in general as a cult is
unreasonable, unfair and incorrect. However there are many calling
themselves Christians who talk and act like cults (to say nothing o
fthe Inquisition and the Crusades). And yes, I think contempt does
describe my attitude.

But I have nothing but admiration and respect for persons who are
trying to follow the teachings of Jesus and/or who look to each other
for spiritual gudance and who care about morals and ethics.

Thank you for helping me clarify my remarks.
 
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