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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / July 20062006 Jayco Jayflight 31BHS towing question
We just purchased a new Jayco Jayflight 31BHS about a month ago. We plan on towing it with our 2001 Suburban 1500 4WD with tow package. We are worried that we will have problems towing our new travel trailer with our suburban. The sales person told us that we shouldn't have a problem towing it. We are planning a trip from Stockton, CA to Southern Oregon. We are totally freaked that we are going to break down. I have the following specs for the Jayco that I got from their website: UVW 6935 DHW 960 GVW 9000 I don't have the manual to our Suburban so I don't know it's specs. We are newbies to the RV world. Do you think we will be able to tow the TT without burning out our transmission? Thanks in advance, Vida from Stockton, CA >We just purchased a new Jayco Jayflight 31BHS about a month ago. We >plan on towing it with our 2001 Suburban 1500 4WD with tow package. We [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Thanks in advance, >Vida from Stockton, CA You do know how to tell if a salesman is lying don't you? His lips are moving. I'm afraid that you are going to find that suburban underpowered and unsafe to drive with much trailer behind it. If I were you I'd plan on spending another 25-30k to get a real tow vehicle. Or go back and demand your money back due to the unsuitability of your vehicle and a lying salesman.  SignatureFrank Tabor I see where vaceves@tusd.net contributed: >We just purchased a new Jayco Jayflight 31BHS about a month ago. We >plan on towing it with our 2001 Suburban 1500 4WD with tow package. We >are worried that we will have problems towing You should be worried. The salesman misled you. You can, of course, tow with the Sub, but it will NOT be a happy experience, and you are right to be concerned about cooking the tranny - and even more concerned about controlling that big TT safely. I wish I had good news for you, but the honest answer is that you have too much trailer for safe, comfortable towing. Here is some old verbiage to help you understand why - and why the salesman lied. ============= It is my firmly-held opinion that - on average - manufacturers' maximum tow ratings are optimistic and presume near-ideal conditions and a fair amount of operator skill. I continue to recommend that people buying equipment to tow (or be towed) try to stay well *under* the maximum. I like a 75% target, on the basis that it provides a safety/reliability/comfort cushion for steep grades, bad roads, and emergency maneuvers. In recent years as the bulk of traffic has moved over to the interstate system, I've become increasingly concerned with the number of people who sincerely believe it is OK to drag their long long tri-axle trailer (at 125% of tow rating) at 75 mph with their leetl pick-em-up. [There is even the Hensley hitch character going about like a side show barker with his video showing an Intrepid hauling a 9,600 lb trailer! This is FIVE TIMES the tow rating, ladies & gents! The product is good but the marketing is near-fraudulent.] Bottom line: there's a great deal more to tow ratings than power. To get some perspective on that, consider the average over-the-road truck. Typically 400 horsepower or less to haul 80,000 pounds. Do your own math. And consider this reasoning for a 75% recomendtion: There is pretty general agreement that it is unwise and possibly dangerous to EXCEED maximum ratings, but many of us with long trailering experience have found that tow rating information is often misleading - or at least not applicable to everyone. 1. The tow rating is ALWAYS a maximum figure, and is as large as the manufacturer dares make it. They hope you will buy their stuff for towing. Their rating may or may not be right for you. Every maker has his own methods of setting tow ratings. Some are conservative and some are ludicrously over-stated (many Jeep Cherokees were rated at 5,000 lbs, and IMO are hopelessly overloaded at that figure). 2. MOST tow ratings (nothing personal or specific vs your brand) do not allow for long steep grades - up or (especially) down. 3. Most tow ratings make no allowance for bad road conditions. 4. Most tow ratings are accompanied by asterisks that call attention to special equipment "required". Your rig may not have those features. 5. Most tow ratings make no allowance whatever for emergency maneuvers. I assure you your vehicle WILL NOT turn or stop as fast or as safely with the maximum load as it will with a lot less. The difference can be dramatic. Don't believe me? Try a few tactics in a large parking lot. 6. Vehicle tow ratings make no allowance for the DRIVER'S "tow rating". No insult intended, but if you have to ask how much your rig will tow, you have neither the experience or the knowledge to handle the maximum load safely. IMO. 7. One of the most-overlooked factors in safe towing is a COMBINED maximum (GCWR = Gross Combined Weight Rating, often only found in a towing guide) that dictates a much lighter-than-maximum TOWED load. Most of the weight of cargo & passengers in the tow vehicle must be deducted from the permissible towed load to find the true rating. Some towing guides appear to gloss over this issue because the marketing types want to put the best possible face on their product. 8. What is reasonably safe and comfortable at 45 mph may well be a lethal weapon at 75. Tow ratings, IMO, do NOT reflect any respect for this hazard. 9. An internal combustion engine loses about 2 1/2 to 3% efficiency per thousand feet. You can easily lose 15-18% in the mountains unless you have a turbocharger or supercharger. 10. Regardless of weight ratings, SUV's and "1/2'-ton" pickups are mostly useless for serious towing. They will handle pop-ups and even some of the short "lite" trailers - and will haul yer big one out to the lake if you are careful. But competent handling of a large TT requires a long wheelbase & short overhang. Someone once wrote: "You can tow anything with anything - the question is how far, how safely?" BOTTOM LINE: IF you trust the experienced trailerists who have been there and done that and don't want to go back, you will not exceed about 75% of the rated maximum. The number is of course not writ by the finger of God on a stone tablet - it is merely an indication that you should stay well below the manufacturer's maximum allowance if you want a safe, comfortable trip. Some say the figure ought to be as low as 50 or 60%. But except for a few macho braggarts, most experienced folks agree in principle if not detail with these concerns. For example, go to http://www.popuptimes.com/archives/75rule.asp ========= Will Sill - towing 50+ years "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." William James > BOTTOM LINE: IF you trust the experienced trailerists who have been > there and done that and don't want to go back, you will not exceed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > folks agree in principle if not detail with these concerns. For > example, go to http://www.popuptimes.com/archives/75rule.asp I totally agree with this. I don't think that I would enjoy pushing it to the 75% level. Even at 75%, any emergency situation will be very difficult to deal with. Thanks Frank and Will for your honesty. I was afraid that was the case. We will make the trip to Oregon in the Suburban this time but hopefully the next trip will be in a vehicle that was meant for towing our TT. My husband is very experienced on the road with large big rigs so maneuvering our TT with our Suburban is a breeze for him. I guess we will just be driviing very, very sloooooow from here to Oregon. ;) Thanks again!! >Thanks Frank and Will for your honesty. I was afraid that was the >case. We will make the trip to Oregon in the Suburban this time but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >we will just be driviing very, very sloooooow from here to Oregon. ;) >Thanks again!! You can make this work better if you do a few things. The first is use some loac range c tires rated at 50 PSI as it will increase your sway stabilty as srock type 32 PSI tires will not do it. Next if you have like a 4.10 axle ratio behind it it will not do too bad as burbs are pretty strudy otherwise even in a 1500 model. If you have a stock 3.42 axle ratio it is not going to be fun at all. Also when you tow, do not use OD and keep RPM above or around 3000 RPM when pulling hard on grades as this limits tranny slipage from a unlocked converter and keeps tranny temps down. When you climb long grades, do not try to race up them just find a gear and speed that it feel happy with and keep it there and you will not burn anything up and if you engine heat starts to climb, throttle back and do not push it hot. (say 220 and above) and use 89 octane or better as it will make more power pulling on a hot day because the ECM will be retarding the spark big time with 87 in tank towing (you will never here it knock if it is working properly but you will feel the power loss at times and lost MPG towing too) ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com >>I guess we will just be driviing very, very sloooooow from here to Oregon. ;) Thanks again!!<< It was mentioned already, but I will say it again. DON'T tow in overdrive. That will ruin the transmission for sure. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) Snipped everything: Towing with an under sized vehicle will surely cause death and destruction. Might as well buy a real truck if ya wanta pull it around the country. SignatureMoParMaN---Remove Clothes To Reply! --SCUD Coordinates 32.61204 North: 96.92993 West-- > Thanks Frank and Will for your honesty. I was afraid that was the > case. We will make the trip to Oregon in the Suburban this time but > hopefully the next trip will be in a vehicle that was meant for towing > our TT. My husband is very experienced on the road with large big rigs > so maneuvering our TT with our Suburban is a breeze for him. I guess > we will just be driviing very, very sloooooow from here to Oregon. ;) Make sure to use a quality weight distribution hitch with anti-sway such as an Equalizer or Reese Dual Cam. They are not that expensive and are far better than a friction type add on anti-sway bar. Next, make sure your suburban has a good sized transmission cooler. Since you have the factory tow package I assume you probably already have a decent cooler but make sure. They are not very expensive and should keep your transmission cool. Do not tow in overdrive and manually downshift when pulling hills if the transmission starts hunting between gears. Tow with empty water and waste tanks. Water is 8 lbs per gallon. >Next, make sure your suburban has a good sized transmission cooler. >Since you have the factory tow package I assume you probably already >have a decent cooler but make sure. They are not very expensive and >should keep your transmission cool. Nothing is gained by overcooling it and 180 to 200 degrees is just fine here. Many go overboard on this. If gearing is all wrong not even a big cooler will save tranny. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com > Nothing is gained by overcooling it and 180 to 200 degrees is just > fine here. Many go overboard on this. If gearing is all wrong not even > a big cooler will save tranny. Keeping it cool prevents the fluid from breaking down premature. I agree that keeping it under 200 is about right. Often to do that requires quite a bit of cooling. If you live where I do where 115 degree days and 6%-8% or steeper grades are common then it can easily require a very large cooler. I have a 2001 Dodge Ram 5.9L with factory tow/cooler. No way would it keep my tranny below 200F climbing hills in the summer. More like 230+ until I changed the cooler. >Keeping it cool prevents the fluid from breaking down premature. I >agree that keeping it under 200 is about right. Often to do that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >tow/cooler. No way would it keep my tranny below 200F climbing hills in >the summer. More like 230+ until I changed the cooler. I agree with you on this. Also consider too though that the raditor tank cooler is in series with it and if you fluid is getting that warm the engine likely is too and a bigger radiator and/or a more agresive cooling fan may be in order here too. Usually factory clutch fans are not agressive enough at times. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com > We just purchased a new Jayco Jayflight 31BHS about a month ago. We > plan on towing it with our 2001 Suburban 1500 4WD with tow package. We [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Thanks in advance, > Vida from Stockton, CA Highly doubtful. Using the Trailer Life towing guide at http://www.trailerlife.com/towratings/2006/TowingRatings_p20_33.pdf, the 'typical 1500 4WD Suburban rates at 7,200 to 8,200 pounds. You were lied to. If you want to stay with the Suburban, the 2500 can be equipped to tow up to 12,000 pounds. SignatureDave Thompson > We just purchased a new Jayco Jayflight 31BHS about a month ago. We > plan on towing it with our 2001 Suburban 1500 4WD with tow package. We [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Thanks in advance, > Vida from Stockton, CA You are up pretty high on all three weights. That trailer is too much for the 1500 Suburban but you can make it a safer tow. Spend the money on a Hensley hitch, you won't be sorry and it will work as well with your next tow vehicle. A friend from Ohio has an F150 Expedition and a long double slide Hornet trailer. He hauled it south for a couple of years and didn't like fighting the trailer. After listening to a few expounding the virtues of the Hensley he sent for one. That was Spring 2005. This past December I asked him how it performed. He said it was an orgasmic delight (not his actual words but a fairly accurate representation). The Hensley won't make the rig stop any better but it will make it a safer tow. As has been suggested, if you have the 4.11 gearing you will be a little better off. If you have the tow/haul feature, use it. Make sure before every trip the trailer brakes are capable of skidding the tires. The Suburban doesn't have any reserve braking capacity so the trailer brakes become even more important. Hugh >> We just purchased a new Jayco Jayflight 31BHS about a month ago. We >> plan on towing it with our 2001 Suburban 1500 4WD with tow package. We [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >the trailer brakes become even more important. >Hugh I have a 89 1500 4x4 burb that I biought new and I have towed horse trailer and even loaded car haulers with it a few times and never had any control issues nor drive train either. I do have "C" range tires on it and basically always have had them too. (swapped them out at about 9000 miles) Never used a WD hitch either but then it has stiffer spring than they do now (it has more leafs in rear than a new 2500 HD!) Since he should have coils in rear, a set of airbag inserter for them would be a wise investment. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com >We just purchased a new Jayco Jayflight 31BHS about a month ago. We >plan on towing it with our 2001 Suburban 1500 4WD with tow package. We [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Considering you just purchased a new RV and over loaded your Suburban, you might consider trading it in while it is still in good shape. When you get finished with it you might not be able to give it away. Another thing to look at is your liability while overweight. In the event of an accident you can be held just as liable for it even if it was not determined to be your primary fault. It is generally considered had an overloaded condition not been involved you could have been able to avoid the crash. SignatureBILL P. Just Me & DOG -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > We just purchased a new Jayco Jayflight 31BHS about a month ago. We > plan on towing it with our 2001 Suburban 1500 4WD with tow package. We > GVW 9000 Others in thread: Since the OP is determined to make the drive with their rig, perhaps we can help them (and help keep the roads safe) by suggesting the following: 1. Proper hitch equipment as suggested elsewhere in the thread 2. Load range E tires -- others suggest C, but E are not prohibitively expensive, and give you up to 80 psi capacity to adjust while on the road. 3. Upgraded brakes. 4. Upgraded suspension! Front and rear! Folks here have discussed the weight, but 31' is a lot of length too. Even with all the good quality Reese cam-style sway control, it's a lot of length. I asked a similar question a couple years ago when I was getting started: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.outdoors.rv-travel/browse_frm/thread/b18004df ebbc2b51 OP, read that thread. Lots of useful information. I see where "Rick Onanian" <groups.theholycow@xoxy.net> tried to help. >Others in thread: Since the OP is determined to make the drive with >their rig, perhaps we can help them (and help keep the roads safe) by >suggesting the following: > >1. Proper hitch equipment as suggested elsewhere in the thread Of course. >2. Load range E tires -- others suggest C, but E are not prohibitively >expensive, and give you up to 80 psi capacity to adjust while on the >road. No. VERY unlikely that OEM wheels are rated for 80 psi and dangerous to try if not. NOT RECOMMENDED. >3. Upgraded brakes. How do you do that? >4. Upgraded suspension! Front and rear! How do you do THAT? Airbags? If so, this is bandaid stuff. >Folks here have discussed the >weight, but 31' is a lot of length too. Even with all the good quality >Reese cam-style sway control, it's a lot of length. Disagree. Sway control gadgets are an unnecessary and even potentially dangerous add-ons if not used wisely. Length is pretty much irrelevant to safe handling - in fact an argument can be made that longer is better in some respects. IMO, giving the OP advice on how to survive with a marginal/inadequate tow vehicle is one thing -- suggesting they start modifying the dang thing is quite another. They are WAY better off to be VERY careful making a test run and then trading off the wrong tow car for one suitable for the job. Will Sill Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often. >> 3. Upgraded brakes. > > How do you do that? Some aftermarket calipers, rotors and pads are far superior to stock. >> 4. Upgraded suspension! Front and rear! > > How do you do THAT? Airbags? If so, this is bandaid stuff. Add a leaf, or replace the springs entirely. > Disagree. Sway control gadgets are an unnecessary and even > potentially dangerous add-ons if not used wisely. Length is pretty > much irrelevant to safe handling - in fact an argument can be made > that longer is better in some respects. The longer length is more susceptible to sway. It becomes a huge lever against the tow vehicle. To call anti-sway devices 'gadgets' is misleading. They can and do make towing considerably safer. However, they are not a substitute for proper trailer and tow vehicle setup (proper loading, height etc.). I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: Someone suggested: >>> 3. Upgraded brakes. Will: >> How do you do that? m: >Some aftermarket calipers, rotors and pads are far superior to stock. I guess you're serious, but for one trip? Someone: >>> 4. Upgraded suspension! Front and rear! Will: >> How do you do THAT? Airbags? If so, this is bandaid stuff. m: >Add a leaf, or replace the springs entirely. I guess you're serious, but for one trip? That will drain the wallet, stiffen the ride, and do NOTHING to actually improve the load capacity. Will: >> . . . . Sway control gadgets are an unnecessary and even >> potentially dangerous add-ons if not used wisely. Length is pretty >> much irrelevant to safe handling - in fact an argument can be made >> that longer is better in some respects. m: >The longer length is more susceptible to sway. It becomes a huge lever >against the tow vehicle. To call anti-sway devices 'gadgets' is >misleading. They can and do make towing considerably safer. However, >they are not a substitute for proper trailer and tow vehicle setup >(proper loading, height etc.). ::sigh:: You obviously know little or nothing about towing. I realize this "sway control" myth is widespread, but the popularity of the idea is no measure of it's validity. At best these gadgets mask the tendency for an improper combination to begin swaying, and at worst (bad traction situations) they can literally cause a wreck. While a trailer of any length can sway if everything isn't right, a long trailer has LESS leverage - not more. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > I guess you're serious, but for one trip? That will drain the wallet, > stiffen the ride, and do NOTHING to actually improve the load > capacity. I see. So whatever a manufacture comes out with as stock on a vehicle is always the best and no improvements can be made huh? > ::sigh:: > You obviously know little or nothing about towing. I realize this > "sway control" myth is widespread, but the popularity of the idea is > no measure of it's validity. At best these gadgets mask the tendency > for an improper combination to begin swaying, and at worst (bad > traction situations) they can literally cause a wreck. Are you suggesting that no sway control devices should be installed for any reason? Are you suggesting that a standard basic WD hitch is preferable to something like an Equalizer hitch? I agree that a proper combination of TT and TV as well as proper loading etc. of each is the primary step to take. However, anti-sway devices do improve towability, improve safety from high winds, passing semi's etc. and are far more than just 'gadgets'. > While a trailer of any length can sway if everything isn't right, a > long trailer has LESS leverage - not more. What happens as a semi truck begins to pass? What part of the trailer is effected first? Please explain how a shorter trailer will have less leverage against the TV when the back end is pushed to the side. While you're at it explain how anti-sway devices provide no benefit as a semi passes and pushes sideways against the back end of a trailer. I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: >I see. So whatever a manufacture comes out with as stock on a vehicle >is always the best and no improvements can be made huh? You emphatically do NOT 'see'. I made no such claim or anything like it, and you're being dishonest to characterize my comments that way. Fact is, you could (theoretically if not practically) put HUGE brakes on a half-ton and put in bllocks of wood instead of springs, and you would not have a safe, comfortable tow car Will: >> . . . . . I realize this >> "sway control" myth is widespread, but the popularity of the idea is >> no measure of it's validity. At best these gadgets mask the tendency >> for an improper combination to begin swaying, and at worst (bad >> traction situations) they can literally cause a wreck. m: >Are you suggesting that no sway control devices should be installed for >any reason? Are you suggesting that a standard basic WD hitch is >preferable to something like an Equalizer hitch? As a matter fact, I DO advise against installing cams or friction gadgets in a vain attempt to deal with trailer sway. I realize that's an unpopular view, too. But I also suggest that people serious about a lot of towing with a TT use a Hensley or PullRite hitch - both expensive but both provide vastly improved stability. I also strongly urge good towing practices overall, including consideration of ALL the issues mentioned in the following old and often published essay: ================================== A trailer can sway for MANY reasons. Hensley, PullRite and 5th- wheel hitches are vastly superior to conventional hitches but address ONLY the level and direction of stresses the swaying trailer applies to the tow vehicle, and better minimize effects on the tow vehicle. Trailerists concerned about stability would do well to use a "good" hitch. But you must STILL pay attention to proper weight balance, tire pressures, driving habits, and suspension conditions. You CAN wreck your rig due to sway, no matter what hitch you use. Here are some free tips: BALANCE. TT's & utility trailers ought to have about 10-12% of their weight on the tongue, fivers around 20% on the pin, and be more or less equal side to side. TIRES, both on trailer & tow vehicle, should be correctly inflated for the actual load you're carrying. The best pressure is that shown on the inflation chart for your actual measured weight. Absolute precision is neither necessary or possible but don't over-inflate. ALIGNMENT of both trailer and tow vehicle suspension as well as the hitch is important. You can't expect a trailer to track straight if the tow car is hunting back & forth or the hitch is off center. HITCH TENSION is a factor: too much tension on the weight- distributing bars takes too much weight off the rear wheels of the tow vehicle and is potentially deadly in sudden braking; too little squashes the rear suspension, unloads the front, and lets the trailer nose down -- all three combine to decrease stability. HIGH WINDS will move trailers around, some more than others, Airstreams and Awards are a little less susceptible to crosswinds but you will do will to park the dang thing on a real windy day. TOW RATINGS have GOT to be conservatively applied if you expect a safe, comfortable trip. I recommend you not exceed about 3/4 of the max tow rating for your vehicle. You are a candidate for the Darwin Award if you try to tow a 9,000 lb Airstream with an Intrepid or a Winstar - no matter what some greedy sales loon tells you. WHEELBASE. The right tow vehicle has a long wheelbase. It is absolutely absurd to expect a Blazer, Jeep Cherokee, or Suzuki Samurai to control a big TT. Those vehicles handle badly by themselves and have all the confidence-building directional stability of a hockey puck once a trailer is attached. OVERHANG. The less the better for minimizing sway because the trailer has less leverage to steer you. That is why the Hensley & PullRite hitches feel as stable as a fifth-wheel setup. For years Suburbans were considered a "good" tow vehicle but they have too much rear overhang compared to some vans. LOOSE PARTS on the hitch platform, the hitch itself, trailer frame, or trailer suspension can cause havoc. Not common but a Big Deal if it happens. "SWAY CONTROL" gadgets are little more than bandaids, with minimal effectiveness. If everything else is right they are unnecessary. At best they introduce some small resistance to sway, and at worst they can cause you a crisis under slippery conditions. I do NOT recommend them. Instead, of you are serious about towing, check all the other stuff and get a good hitch. ------------------------------- This lecture brought to you free by Will Sill KD3XR, who hopes you are not offended by anything you read, inferred, assumed, presumed or otherwise guessed I might have possibly meant as demeaning - unless of course you are personally a humorless nitwit who WANTS to be insulted. In which case be my guest. ============================== >I agree that a proper combination of TT and TV as well as proper loading >etc. of each is the primary step to take. However, anti-sway devices do >improve towability, improve safety from high winds, passing semi's etc. >and are far more than just 'gadgets'. You're entitled to your opinion, but readers are invited to compare the validity of your advice with that of someone who's been towing for 50+ years AND understands the physics. Will: >> While a trailer of any length can sway if everything isn't right, a >> long trailer has LESS leverage - not more. m: >What happens as a semi truck begins to pass? What part of the trailer >is effected first? Please explain how a shorter trailer will have less >leverage against the TV when the back end is pushed to the side. I didn't say it did. From experience AND simple physics, a longer distance from hitch ball to trailer wheels equates to less unwanted steering force from the trailer. m: >While you're at it explain how anti-sway devices provide no benefit as a >semi passes and pushes sideways against the back end of a trailer. I already explained, but here is some more: The amount of resistance to misalignment that can be provided by a gadget is trivial compared to the force of crosswinds - and if you are foolish enough to tighten one down too much it will cause you to wreck when you find yourself trying to turn under poor traction conditions. Example: our area was struck by a major flood this week, and MANY sections of road are closed due to washouts. Others are open but with gravel washed across. A "sway control" tight enough to keep the trailer straight in a gusty crosswind will prevent you from turning on the marbles. BTW, I don't really care what YOU do --- I'm interested in making sure people get good advice here, not hype, foolish ideas, or bragging by someone who thinks '1/2-ton' pickups are wonderful for hauling big TT's because they have done it with having a big wreck - yet. Will Sill Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often. Actually you are not alone in most of your views listed below. I do not beleive in using sway control devices to stabilize a load bigger than should really be back there for a given vehicle. I much prefer the route of the proper chassis, springs, tires, hitch and trailer load centering to "control" or "tame" the trailer. Though some swear by sway stabilizers, they are but a bandaid fix to the real problem and can give you a false sense of security that can fail you at the wrong time and "surprize" you. >As a matter fact, I DO advise against installing cams or friction >gadgets in a vain attempt to deal with trailer sway. I realize that's [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] >them. Instead, of you are serious about towing, check all the other >stuff and get a good hitch. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com > Actually you are not alone in most of your views listed below. I do > not beleive in using sway control devices to stabilize a load bigger [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and can give you a false sense of security that can fail you at the > wrong time and "surprize" you. Sway controls are just like any other equipment you use with an RV. You have to know when to use them and when not to. My current trailer has over 200,000 miles on it. Most of those miles were made with 2 friction sway controls, 1 on each side of the standard Reese hitch of old (before the patent ran out). The few times that the sway bars were loosened to the point they were not causing friction when turning was either heavy rain, 1 time snow on the road and another time ice patches on the road. Some have the clamp so tight that the least thing can cause the tow vehicle try to go different from where it's steered. I feel confident mine are doing what I need done as for as sway. If I didn't, I'd buy a Pullrite. I'd never buy one of the other lying, false advertizing high priced hitches. Tom J I see where "Tom J" <tomnews@earthlink.net> contributed: >Sway controls are just like any other equipment you use with an RV. >You have to know when to use them and when not to. My current trailer [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >didn't, I'd buy a Pullrite. I'd never buy one of the other lying, >false advertizing high priced hitches. Thanx for that honest report. I don't feel they help you much, but certainly agree with the risks when they are too tight. I regret to opine that the ad hype for both Hensley & PullRite is deceptive - but they are both excellent hitches. IMO not worth the money in terms of what you get for the dollar (but I feel that way about a lot of stuff these days!) but if you're serious about having the most stable hitch currently available for a TT, you gotta have one. Will Sill Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often. > Actually you are not alone in most of your views listed below. I do > not beleive in using sway control devices to stabilize a load bigger > than should really be back there for a given vehicle. Thats true. Such devices are not a substitute for proper setup. But they are far more than 'gadgets' as Old Time Will feels. > I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You emphatically do NOT 'see'. I made no such claim or anything like > it, and you're being dishonest to characterize my comments that way. No such thing. You called anti-sway devices 'gimmicks'. You stated that one could add all sorts of things (in reply to me mentioning springs and you mentioning airbags) and it wouldn't increase tow capabilities. So yes, you did make such a claim. If thats not what you meant, then by all means say what you mean. > Fact is, you could (theoretically if not practically) put HUGE brakes > on a half-ton and put in bllocks of wood instead of springs, and you > would not have a safe, comfortable tow car Um, good thing you are not a mechanic...or are you? lol > As a matter fact, I DO advise against installing cams or friction > gadgets in a vain attempt to deal with trailer sway. Who said such devices should be used for correctly other problems that are causing bad sway? Again I ask you point blank...are anti-sway devices uses and should never be installed? > A trailer can sway for MANY reasons. Hensley, PullRite and 5th- > wheel hitches are vastly superior to conventional hitches but address > ONLY the level and direction of stresses the swaying trailer applies > to the tow vehicle, and better minimize effects on the tow vehicle. Such hitches do one thing very well. Transfer the load and pivot point further forward. That in itself decreases the leveraging effect the trailer has on the TV. Of course you already said a shorter trailer has more leveraging effect on the TV. > Trailerists concerned about stability would do well to use a "good" > hitch. But you must STILL pay attention to proper weight balance, > tire pressures, driving habits, and suspension conditions. You CAN > wreck your rig due to sway, no matter what hitch you use. No argument there. Thats the first thing that should be done. Never said otherwise. > "SWAY CONTROL" gadgets are little more than bandaids, with minimal > effectiveness. If everything else is right they are unnecessary. At > best they introduce some small resistance to sway, and at worst they > can cause you a crisis under slippery conditions. I do NOT recommend > them. Instead, of you are serious about towing, check all the other > stuff and get a good hitch. I have a both a Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab and a Hemi Durango. I pull a 20' 5,000lb trailer. With a standard WD hitch properly setup, everything level, proper tounge weight etc. the trailer tows quite well with no sway. That is, until its very windy and semis are passing. When those two conditions exist the addition of an anti-sway hitch completely elimited any sway when the semis passed. What is your solution for these conditions? Buy a bigger truck to tow a rather light short trailer? > You're entitled to your opinion, but readers are invited to compare > the validity of your advice with that of someone who's been towing for > 50+ years AND understands the physics. ROFL, oh ya, the old I'm an old fart and know more than anyone else routine. Well tell ya what Will. Have you ever towed with a device that measures the forces on the hitch in X, Y and Z axis to truly understand the physics? I have. I'm an engineer at a company that produces them. My experience trumps yours from a purely technical knowledge aspect. Good grief...try the older and wiser line elsewhere. > I didn't say it did. From experience AND simple physics, a longer > distance from hitch ball to trailer wheels equates to less unwanted > steering force from the trailer. Not true at all. The trailer is a huge lever against the TV with the pivot point being the trailers wheels. The longer the trailer, the more leverage it has. The more axles, the more difficult it is to pivot and thus less prone to sway. > BTW, I don't really care what YOU do --- I'm interested in making sure > people get good advice here, not hype, foolish ideas, or bragging by > someone who thinks '1/2-ton' pickups are wonderful for hauling big > TT's because they have done it with having a big wreck - yet. Well Will, I really do not care about your bragging about how old you are and how many years you've towed. I also am not impressed with your spin attempt. I never once said a 1/2 ton truck is wonderful for hauling big TT's. What crawled up your butt and died anyways? I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> whined: >No such thing. You called anti-sway devices 'gimmicks'. No, I said: ================= "SWAY CONTROL" gadgets are little more than bandaids, with minimal effectiveness. If everything else is right they are unnecessary. At best they introduce some small resistance to sway, and at worst they can cause you a crisis under slippery conditions. I do NOT recommend them. Instead, of you are serious about towing, check all the other stuff and get a good hitch. And I added: This lecture brought to you free by Will Sill KD3XR, who hopes you are not offended by anything you read, inferred, assumed, presumed or otherwise guessed I might have possibly meant as demeaning - unless of course you are personally a humorless nitwit who WANTS to be insulted. In which case be my guest. Be my guest. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > And I added: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > unless of course you are personally a humorless nitwit who WANTS > to be insulted. In which case be my guest. Ahh...so your rhetoric is just BS for your own trolling needs! Well, at least you admit it! snipped > While a trailer of any length can sway if everything isn't right, a > long trailer has LESS leverage - not more. > > Will Sill I'd ask, if he'd listen, where he comes up with this. The longer the trailer, the more apt it is to effect a tow vehicle. Maybe someone should enlighten Will about what causes sway in the first place. All travel trailers and 5th wheels are built with the axles placed close to the load midpoint. This makes the axle(s) the fulcrum for sway forces. Depending on the stiffness of the tow vehicle rear springs and the side resistance of the suspension, the sway forces either overcome the tow vehicle or are subdued by it. The sway is generated by the swinging of the trailer about the axle fulcrum point. The sway force can be induced by any of several causes. The most common is from passing traffic. The wind force from the passing vehicle forces the unrestrained rear of the trailer to swing toward the curb forcing the hitch point to swing toward the left which in turn cause the front of the tow vehicle to swing right. Since all these actions are restrained by springs attached to the axles of both the tow vehicle and the trailer, that stored force reacts to push everything back toward the start. If conditions are right, cyclical sway begins. There are several ways to alleviate the problem. One is to sell the pull behind trailer and purchase a 5th wheel. Another is to have a friction sway controller (or two) installed. The reason for using one is simple. The friction controller acts as a damper (same as a shock absorber) to absorb the sway induced force. Adjusted properly, it will do a decent job of taming sway. The Reese twin cam is another friction sway controller that needs high hitch weight to be effective. The cams have a tendency to keep the rig going in a straight line and again, if adjusted properly does a decent job of taming sway. Two more much better devices exist to virtually eliminate sway. Both do so in a similar way. The PullRite hitch places the hitch point directly behind the tow vehicle rear axle. This reduces the lever arm of the trailer to a level that can't over power the tow vehicle. It will do an excellent job of taming sway. The other system is the Hensley Arrow Hitch. This device winds up being a combination of a standard ball mount hitch and a moving hitch point which can be close to the bumper and ahead of the tow vehicle rear axle. Up to a certain angle, it will eliminate sway entirely. It does this by a unique towing situation. As pointed out above, conventional hitches cause the tow vehicle/trailer combo to snake down the road. The Hensley can best be explained by picturing the vehicle from above. Say a wind force pushes against the left rear of the trailer and it tries to move right. It is resisted by the hitch point because the hitch point is not at the rear of the tow vehicle but instead is at some point between the rear axle and the front axle. This doesn't give the trailer a fulcrum point to react with. Since there is no movement there is no sway. All forces are absorbed and the driver can relax when tractor trailers swoosh by. Any and all comments are welcome. :) Hugh >I'd ask, if he'd listen, where he comes up with this. The longer the >trailer, the more apt it is to effect a tow vehicle. Actaully he has good logic here. With a longer trailer, the axle are further back and whne the tougue moves under sway to deflects the axle path less to it responces more tamely than a short one because the same amount of hitch side deflection wil cause axles to :turn" more and the trailer to react more agressively. Sure total weight play a factor to but on the right TV, longer trailers are a lot more predictable than shorter ones. They also back up easier too. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com > >I'd ask, if he'd listen, where he comes up with this. The longer the > >trailer, the more apt it is to effect a tow vehicle. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > same amount of hitch side deflection wil cause axles to :turn" more > and the trailer to react more agressively. Sure total weight play a Hmm.. In simpler terms, I think that all means: "While the longer trailer has more overhang (and therefore leverage) behind the fulcrum (axles), it is equally extended in front of the fulcrum, resulting in no net gain or loss of leverage." Is that an accurate simplification? > factor to but on the right TV, longer trailers are a lot more > predictable than shorter ones. They also back up easier too. This thread has been about -not- "the right TV". The concern here is that it's entirely the _wrong_ TV. In that case, a longer trailer may be less predictable than a shorter one. Why is a longer trailer easier to back up? I'm not sure, but I think I've observed this difference between my 16' boat trailer and my 26' TT. I figured that it was just because I was taking the TT more seriously and putting more attention into it. I suppose the longer distance to the wheels results in gentler jacknife action and easier following with the truck. OTOH, there's no denying that extra length requires more spatial awareness and depth perception, as well as more remembering more of what was over there in the now-blind spot. >Why is a longer trailer easier to back up? I'm not sure, but I think >I've observed this difference between my 16' boat trailer and my 26' >TT. I figured that it was just because I was taking the TT more >seriously and putting more attention into it. I suppose the longer >distance to the wheels results in gentler jacknife action and easier >following with the truck. THe further the axle are from the hitch, the less aggresively they respond to changed in hitch position changes so they are easier to control and back up further with less correction needed to keep them in line. Yes they need a little more room but they are a lot easier to put on the desire spot too. Most boat trilers usually back up nice for their size because the axles are far back because the boats CG is aft too. I would rather back up a long trailer than a short one any day. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com >>I'd ask, if he'd listen, where he comes up with this. The longer the >>trailer, the more apt it is to effect a tow vehicle. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The SnoMan > www.thesnoman.com Sorry, no he doesn't. Your analogy only applies to a commercial trailer with the axles at the back. Only in this case does the length of trailer pertain to towing stability. With a travel trailer, the axles become the fulcrum point for opposing forces. The weight carried by the frame behind the axle is balanced by a slightly greater weight carried by the frame ahead of the axle. The rear of the trailer is free to swing when pushed (or induced by the tow vehicle turning the steering wheel) and the reaction is "felt" at the ball hitch. Once the swing starts, the mass will try and keep it going till it's stopped by resistive forces. The longer the trailer, the more "stored" energy must be absorbed by resistive forces. All other things being equal (same tow vehicle), a short trailer will cause less chaos than a long trailer. It's the mass going on a ride perched on the two lever arms. I say two because the front lever arm going clockwise (when viewed from above) is added to the rear lever arm going counter clockwise. Hugh > Sorry, no he doesn't. Your analogy only applies to a commercial > trailer with the axles at the back. Only in this case does the length [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > from above) is added to the rear lever arm going counter clockwise. > Hugh I think Will and SnoMan may have a point -- while true that you can point out that one lever arm is longer, the other one is equally longer, resulting in the same overall mechanical advantage. However, one point that has been entirely ignored, and which I think is quite relevant, is the exposed side area of the trailer. Since the concern is often wind, as may be from natural crosswinds or forced winds by passing big rigs, a larger area of trailer is a bigger sail and will catch more force. If TT A is 20% longer than TT B, and both are passed by the same big rig at the same delta V, then TT A will get 20% more sideways force. And, having thought that through thoroughly enough to write it above, I find myself once again considering lever arms -- and it brings me to the following: If there is more leverage behind the TT axles, then the longer TT will be pushed aside more, with the fulcrum of that action being the hitch, the load being side-force on the TT wheels, and the force being wind at the rear of the TT. In that case, you do have a larger action, which then has a reaction of the TT swinging back into line behind the TV; and if it gains enough intertia while it's tracking sideways back into line, then it could definitely provide a larger force at the hitch. I wonder if my whole visualization of the process of sway was wrong and the truth is the two-stage lever action as described above. Whichever visualization is correct, Will and SnoMan (if I understand/remember correctly -- and they'll tell me if I don't) contend that a longer TT has no more leverage because both lever arms increase in length equivalantly as the TT gets longer; in which case, you have no difference in sway between shorter or longer TTs. However, that does not account for the larger "sail" area of a longer TT; resulting in a net increase in sway probability as the TT gets longer. Wow. That's a lot of theory squatting around and not meaning sh.t if it don't work. ;) > larger action, which then has a reaction of the TT swinging back into > line behind the TV; and if it gains enough intertia while it's tracking > sideways back into line, then it could definitely provide a larger Additionally, I wonder if there is an aerodynamic push just from the thing being cocked a little sideways after the drift but before the reaction of falling back into line. This would add to the lateral inertia it gains while straightening. Damned armchair theorists. Why I oughta...put accelerometers all over my TT and lateral run-out meters on the tires and precision angle measurement equipment on the hitch and high precision air pressure monitors all over the sides, get on the highway, and see what happens, then do the same on a longer one. Oh yeah, I forgot -- I don't have that kind of equipment or expertise, nor a longer TT with which to test and compare. Darn. >> larger action, which then has a reaction of the TT swinging back into >> line behind the TV; and if it gains enough intertia while it's tracking [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >that kind of equipment or expertise, nor a longer TT with which to test >and compare. Darn. You make some very good arguements and make some good points too. Kudo's :) ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com (all theory deleted) > Wow. That's a lot of theory squatting around and not meaning sh.t if > it don't work. ;) I have to agree with another poster besides you that "theory don't mean squat", especially in this case. I started out with an 18 foot travel trailer that was a real problem to keep straight behind the tow vehicle in any type wind from the side. I traded up to a 27 foot trailer and it was much more stable behind the same tow vehicle. A few years later I traded up to the 35 foot trailer I still have and it handles even better in side winds and when big trucks pass. I do have a couple of advantages over most people towing travel trailers. I used an F-250 heavy duty tow vehicle with all three and the last two trailers were Avion trailers with the rounded corners (as opposed to box trailers). Tom J snipped > Wow. That's a lot of theory squatting around and not meaning sh.t if it > don't work. ;) A body in motion tends to stay in motion. A body swinging around an axis will continue until resistive forces stop it. A swaying trailer will continue to sway until resistive forces stop it. In Tom's case, his friction control bars are what stops the sway from taking over. I'll try one more time. Passing tractor trailer bow wave pushes the rear of the trailer away from it. The trailer twists on its axis (axles) pushing the front of the trailer toward the tractor trailer. As the ball socket is on the trailer and is securely seated on the hitch ball, the ball gets pushed toward the tractor trailer. The ball is attached to the tow vehicle hitch which gets pushed toward the tractor trailer. The tow vehicle has an axis somewhere in-between its front and rear axles. As the hitch is being pushed toward the tractor trailer, the unrestrained front end of the tow vehicle is being pushed away. That in a nutshell is the basis for sway. Compounding this set of reactions is another. The trailer is sitting on a set of axles which are equipped with tires in contact with the road surface. The trailer is twisting on its axis and is swinging the trailer box about another axis midpoint between the axles. This axis is on the fore/aft centerline of the trailer. Again, a body in motion tends to remain in motion. Put all these things in motion and you can see how a trailer winds up on its side. The 5thwheel, the PullRite hitch and the Hensley Arrow Hitch all resolve the above conditions. A standard ball hitch trailer, without the above hitches, will sway under the right conditions. Will is absolutely correct in calling anti sway devices Band-Aids, they are. But, up to a point they work, some better than others. Now, if I still don't make sense I'll go to my day job, being retired <g>. Hugh > snipped >> Wow. That's a lot of theory squatting around and not meaning sh.t if it [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > in calling anti sway devices Band-Aids, they are. But, up to a point they > work, some better than others. I'm confused! I was under the impression that the long/short started out being about the TV wheelbase, now it seems centered on the trailer length. Short wheelbase/long overhang is going to aggravate any sway, regardless of trailer length, although with any given TV, different length trailers are going to handle differently. I understand the Hensley or Pullrite help with this problem by making the pivot point very close to the rear axle of the TV. Witness the commercial trailer transporters using chopped/shortened single axle semi tractors, with a massive hitch plate between the rear wheels so the hitch ball is as close as possible to the rear axle. SignatureNahmie The only road to success is always under construction. I see where "Norman D. Crow" <Ravens@madbbs.com> contributed: >I'm confused! I was under the impression that the long/short started out >being about the TV wheelbase, now it seems centered on the trailer length. Sorry you're confused, but I can see why. Endless theorizing sans hands-on experience often leads to confusion. Optimum tow vehicle configuration for a TT = long wheelbase, short overhang. PullRite & Hensley both make a huge difference. While any trailer can and will sway under certain conditions, the longer the distance from ball to axle(s) the less tendency to sway. ANY trailer can be pushed aside somewhat by crosswinds (such as from the 'bow wave' of a passing large vehicle), but only an unstable combination will begin to oscillate (sway) from side to side. Will Sill "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." William James >ANY trailer can be pushed aside somewhat by crosswinds (such as from >the 'bow wave' of a passing large vehicle), but only an unstable >combination will begin to oscillate (sway) from side to side. Very true indeed. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com >>Folks here have discussed the >>weight, but 31' is a lot of length too. Even with all the good quality [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > much irrelevant to safe handling - in fact an argument can be made > that longer is better in some respects. I agree completely...and in my opinion "good quality" and "Reese" cam-style sway control don't belong in the same sentence. I think Reese is at the bottom of the pile. > I agree completely...and in my opinion "good quality" and "Reese" cam-style > sway control don't belong in the same sentence. I think Reese is at the > bottom of the pile. Reese makes hitches from low end to mid end. If the only thing 'good' to you is a hensley then yes, everything else is bottom of the pile. The Dual Cam is a decent system. So is the Equalizer. > I see where "Rick Onanian" <groups.theholycow@xoxy.net> tried to help. > >2. Load range E tires -- others suggest C, but E are not prohibitively [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > No. VERY unlikely that OEM wheels are rated for 80 psi and dangerous > to try if not. NOT RECOMMENDED. In practice, 60,000 miles on 2002 GM wheels rated for 50psi running at 60 to 80psi have been wonderful. I'll grant you, I'm not entirely sure what could fail on a wheel when the pressure is too high. Is the hole for the valve stem not reinforced enough? Is the wheel more likely to break? I broke a wheel running over a curb with my tires at 40psi. My wheels are taking much less of a beating with the tires inflated higher (please, PLEASE don't let this turn into a tire-pressure flame war! My pressure works for me, and I'm only suggesting here that the OP have the opportunity, while on the road, to try and adjust to different pressures...). > >3. Upgraded brakes. > How do you do that? Aftermarket racing supply companies, or commercial truck fit-out companies (the same ones that put dump bodies on cab-chassis. Too bad RV body installers don't do that stuff). They can install bigger or just higher-rated same-size brake systems. > >4. Upgraded suspension! Front and rear! > How do you do THAT? Airbags? If so, this is bandaid stuff. I hadn't thought of airbags, but maybe. I was more thinking of heavier springs. You know, parts on a vehicle can be changed for...different parts! Many pickup truck and rv owners have replaced light-duty leaf springs with much beefier, heavier, stiffer leaf springs. Torsion bars (which are probably what the OP has for front springs) are easily available in heavier ratings from off-roading supply companies, and may possibly be a simple swap-out for components from GM's heavier trucks. > >Folks here have discussed the > >weight, but 31' is a lot of length too. Even with all the good quality [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > much irrelevant to safe handling - in fact an argument can be made > that longer is better in some respects. So, given a choice between two tow vehicles, both rated for a given trailer's weight, you would not think a longer vehicle would have more control? Egads, man! That's a simple leverage issue, and commonly discussed when people ask if it's okay to tow a long trailer with their short trucks (often sufficiently rated for towing weight capacity). This is especially so with TTs, where the axles are often near the center of the trailer, so wind or just inertia can push the back end of the TT, forcing sway -- the more leverage the truck has, the better. > IMO, giving the OP advice on how to survive with a marginal/inadequate > tow vehicle is one thing -- suggesting they start modifying the dang > thing is quite another. They are WAY better off to be VERY careful > making a test run and then trading off the wrong tow car for one > suitable for the job. Will, they're already committed to making a LONG trip! Do _you_ want to share the road with a vehicle that's completely unsafe for the job, or would you rather see them make it into a more capable vehicle? I see where "Rick Onanian" <groups.theholycow@xoxy.net> contributed: Will: >> VERY unlikely that OEM wheels are rated for 80 psi and dangerous >> to try if not. NOT RECOMMENDED. RO: >In practice, 60,000 miles on 2002 GM wheels rated for 50psi running at >60 to 80psi have been wonderful. I'll grant you, I'm not entirely sure >what could fail on a wheel when the pressure is too high. Is the hole >for the valve stem not reinforced enough? Is the wheel more likely to >break? I can't believe you'd make such a ridiculous recommendation, let alone try it yourself. Have you actually considered the consequences, or have you assumed your dumb luck will hold? Some of us KNOW what happens to over-pressured wheels: they crack and leak air. If some ignorant jerk tries to use a tube to stop the air leak, then the wheel can literally explode. In any event, don't be a moron and recommend potentially dangerous practices. Will: >> Length is pretty >> much irrelevant to safe handling - in fact an argument can be made >> that longer is better in some respects. RO: >So, given a choice between two tow vehicles, both rated for a given >trailer's weight, you would not think a longer vehicle would have more >control? Egads, man! That's a simple leverage issue, and commonly >discussed when people ask if it's okay to tow a long trailer with their >short trucks (often sufficiently rated for towing weight capacity). See my reply to miles. You are mistaken. In towing, length is mostly irrelevant compared to weight and frontal area. Long trailers are easier to control, easier to back, and less (not more) susceptible to sway. Will: >> IMO, giving the OP advice on how to survive with a marginal/inadequate >> tow vehicle is one thing -- suggesting they start modifying the dang >> thing is quite another. They are WAY better off to be VERY careful >> making a test run and then trading off the wrong tow car for one >> suitable for the job. RO: >Will, they're already committed to making a LONG trip! Do _you_ want to >share the road with a vehicle that's completely unsafe for the job, or >would you rather see them make it into a more capable vehicle? The problem is simply that hot-rodding the vehicle as recommended does NOT materially improve its safety or suitability. If they have the money to do all that stuff they would, as I suggested, be way better off trading. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >I can't believe you'd make such a ridiculous recommendation, let alone >try it yourself. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >In any event, don't be a moron and recommend potentially dangerous >practices. Though some of the wording is strong, the intent is correct. It is extremely dangerous to run well over rated pressure in rims as if the fail it can hurt or even kill someone nearby. To even suggest to others to do the same is very irresponsible to say the least. A very dangerous pratice indeed because ar such over pressure when they fail it will likely be massive and with no warning, not just a crack and a leak! ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com > I see where "Rick Onanian" <groups.theholycow@xoxy.net> contributed: > >In practice, 60,000 miles on 2002 GM wheels rated for 50psi running at > >60 to 80psi have been wonderful. I'll grant you, I'm not entirely sure > > your dumb luck will hold? Some of us KNOW what happens to > over-pressured wheels: they crack and leak air. Oh. That's pretty bad, especially if you're asking a lot of them; a cracked wheel with an oversized, overweight trailer behind it sounds like big trouble. > In any event, don't be a moron and recommend potentially dangerous > practices. This was a wreckless failure of judgement on my part. I would like to take this opportunity to retract my recommendation on inflation beyond limits for the wheel. In the event that the OP's wheels are rated for 50 psi (per my guess, based on my similar model vehicle), and they find that load range C tires do not offer enough pressure adjustment, new wheels should accompany higher-pressure tires. > >Will, they're already committed to making a LONG trip! Do _you_ want to > >share the road with a vehicle that's completely unsafe for the job, or > >would you rather see them make it into a more capable vehicle? > > The problem is simply that hot-rodding the vehicle as recommended does > NOT materially improve its safety or suitability. Actually, I'm not so sure. As I've continued to read this thread, I began to consider what the difference is between a Suburban 1500 and a Suburban 3500. What are the differences? Besides the upgrades discussed here, a stronger frame, and a stronger drivetrain, I'm not sure what else is different. The OP won't need a stronger drivetrain; driver is an experienced big rig driver and used to going slow. As for the frame, I'm not familiar with any examples of catastrophic tow vehicle frame failures, and my experience with the exact same frame is that it's pretty tough. >If they have the > money to do all that stuff they would, as I suggested, be way better > off trading. I agree that they really are ill-advised to tow with this vehicle at all, but I figure they have money to burn since they're already willing to destroy (and subsequently replace) their engine and transmission. Why not upgrade the springs and tires and whatnot before they break on the road? Upgraded stuff at home is cheaper than getting a couple tow trucks to drag the whole rig to an unknown garage away from home who will charge god knows how much. Hey, come to think of it, they might want to change out their rear-end for lower gears (don't forget the front too, if 4x4), which ought to save their engine and transmission a bit of grief. Here's a reality check, though: Perhaps they should get the thing to a scale and see just how much it really actually weighs. Maybe this is all a wasted discussion. >> I see where "Rick Onanian" <groups.theholycow@xoxy.net> contributed: >> >In practice, 60,000 miles on 2002 GM wheels rated for 50psi running at [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >failures, and my experience with the exact same frame is that it's >pretty tough. Larger brakes, heavier shocks, heavier springs, greater tow rating, larger rear end, heavier duty steering. Everything that makes the 1500 a poor choice for towing anything over 5000 lbs. >>If they have the >> money to do all that stuff they would, as I suggested, be way better [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >scale and see just how much it really actually weighs. Maybe this is >all a wasted discussion. SignatureFrank Tabor I see where "Rick Onanian" <groups.theholycow@xoxy.net> contributed: > I would like to >take this opportunity to retract my recommendation on inflation beyond >limits for the wheel. Thank you for stepping up. VERY few do that here. >In the event that the OP's wheels are rated for 50 psi (per my guess, >based on my similar model vehicle), and they find that load range C >tires do not offer enough pressure adjustment, new wheels should >accompany higher-pressure tires. A close look at the bigger picture will reveal substantial differences in axle design as well - the 3500 series will have much heavier full-floating 8-bolt hubs, for example. With a proper LD hitch. weight on the tow vehicle wheels is not a Big Deal. > As I've continued to read this thread, I >began to consider what the difference is between a Suburban 1500 and a >Suburban 3500. What are the differences? Besides the upgrades discussed >here, a stronger frame, and a stronger drivetrain, I'm not sure what >else is different. Your admission that you're not sure what else is different is at the root of the misunderstanding. Without studying the specs and reciting part numbers, I too don't know all the details. What I do know is that there are (despite virtually identical bodies) many differences - and that jacking up a 1500 to retrofit all 3500 parts is not only impractical and uneconomical, but is only a partial solution which I for one do NOT recommend. >I agree that they really are ill-advised to tow with this vehicle at >all, but I figure they have money to burn since they're already willing >to destroy (and subsequently replace) their engine and transmission. >Why not upgrade the springs and tires and whatnot before they break on >the road? The chance that they will 'destroy' anything is fairly small, IF the driver is as experienced as implied. IMO the biggest problem is the probability that this trip will be characterized by white knuckles, cold sweat, and buyer's remorse. A wreck is possible but improbable. A surprsing number of compleat morons seem to survive stupid combinations - a careful drive might never actually crash. >Hey, come to think of it, they might want to change out their rear-end >for lower gears (don't forget the front too, if 4x4), which ought to >save their engine and transmission a bit of grief. It IS a 4x4, and changing gears is very expensive. . . . and will do NOTHING for handling issues. >Here's a reality check, though: Perhaps they should get the thing to a >scale and see just how much it really actually weighs. Maybe this is >all a wasted discussion. I fear it is mostly wasted, but I heartily agree they should WEIGH before finalizing their plans. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >A close look at the bigger picture will reveal substantial differences >in axle design as well - the 3500 series will have much heavier >full-floating 8-bolt hubs, for example. With a proper LD hitch. >weight on the tow vehicle wheels is not a Big Deal. So does the 2500 series and in a P/U the 1500 HD (not to be cinfussed with regular 1500) is really a 3/4 ton truck and has the same springs, tires and chassis as the 2500HD. The only realy difference is the rear axle, the 1500 HD has the 14 bolt 9.5 semi floater which is very stout and has a axle capacity of about 3 ton and the 2500 HD or Burb has a 14 bolt 10.5 full floater that is good for about 4 tons (if springs and tires are too). In my "book" the the 1/2 burb should come with the 9.5 semi floater standard because the stock 10 bolt is really to light a axle for that vehicle. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com > Actually, I'm not so sure. As I've continued to read this thread, I > began to consider what the difference is between a Suburban 1500 and > a > Suburban 3500. What are the differences? I'm not convinced any Surburban built now is a safe tow vehicle. The Club I belong to has had 5 different roll over wrecks in the past 14 months. ALL the roll over wrecks were trailers being towed with a Suburban and one of those was suppose to be the most heavy duty model made for the 2005 model year. Three of these wrecks happened on Interstate highways on straight level streches of road. 2 on I-10, 1 in LA and 1 in AZ. The other was on I-65 in AL. The other 2 were on 2 lane US highways. I've towed in the past with a Suburban, but never again. Tom J >2. Load range E tires -- others suggest C, but E are not prohibitively >expensive, and give you up to 80 psi capacity to adjust while on the >road. The problem with this is that the rims may not be rated for "E" range tire pressures so this could be very bad advise. Most rims will go to 50 PSI or so safely but 80 or 85 PSI is a whole different ball game. THe difference in side sway stabilty with a trailer between 32 PSI and 50 PSI rear tires is a lot and a very feasable upgrade. Beyound 50 PSI you will get less return in this application. ----------------- The SnoMan www.thesnoman.com snipped > Others in thread: Since the OP is determined to make the drive with > their rig, perhaps we can help them (and help keep the roads safe) by > suggesting the following: This is why I made the serious suggestion of the Hensley Arrow Hitch. This, or the PullRite, is the only safe way to handle a trailer of that size and weight. To be honest, my biggest concern with this setup is the actual platform hitch itself. The hitch weight is high to begin with and the Hensley is a heavy hitch. The combined weight of the trailer hitch weight and the dead weight of the Hensley may be enough to overload the capacity of the hitch platform. My opinion of the GM OEM hitch platform is very bad. The design leaves a lot to be desired and it really is not up to handling a hitch weight of 1,000 lbs. This opinion comes from personal experience and an example of a failed hitch on a IIRC Suburban. The welding is poorly executed and there is not enough weld surface for the load rating. The Expedition and Hornet double slide trailer I mentioned is a good example of what the Hensley can do for a poor tow setup. The owner of the Hornet could not say enough good about the new hitch. It turned a white knuckle tow experience to a good tow with no reaction from passing trucks on I75. As to upgrading anything on the tow vehicle. This has to be limited to either adding air bags or extra leaves to the rear. A heavier duty stabilizer bar can be purchased and installed. LT tires of the proper load range for the tow vehicle and its wheels can be purchased and mounted. New, heavy duty shocks can be installed all around. Aside from that, with the exception of an added transmission cooler, not much else can be upgraded. It's true they could upgrade the brakes but the expense would be very high. I wouldn't tow that trailer with a 1500 stock Suburban. The wheelbase is too short and the suspension is too soft. Adding the Hensley is the best thing they could do. It at least would make the rig stable going down the road. Any modifications need to be weighed carefully against the purchase of a suitable tow vehicle. With a trailer like this, I'd get the Hensley even if the new tow vehicle was a 2500 Suburban. This is too much trailer for a short wheelbase vehicle like a Suburban chassis. Hugh > Any modifications need to be weighed carefully against the purchase of a > suitable tow vehicle. With a trailer like this, I'd get the Hensley even > if the new tow vehicle was a 2500 Suburban. This is too much trailer for a > short wheelbase vehicle like a Suburban chassis. > Hugh Anytime you need to add aftermarket brakes, suspension and tires to a tow vehicle to make it "marginal" for towing a given load, you have the wrong tow vehicle. I'd strongly recommend the op consider trading in his Suburban for a heavy duty 3/4 or one ton vehicle. I'm sorry but dangerously stupid behaviour is dangerously stupid and there is no realistic way to mitigate the fact. Their proposed trip and this advice both qualify as dangerously stupid (or perhaps stupidly dangerous). There is no "proper" equipment that can be added to an inadequate vehicle that will make this safe or even sufficiently less dangerous. Offering such suggestions onlys encourages further irresonsible behaviour by these folks and others. Everyone can fnd someone who knows someone who towed <insert very large towed load> for <insert VERY large number> miles with <insert very small tow vehicle> and never had (circle any or all) <damage, accident, problems>. This is foolishness and only perpetuates the fantasy that pure blind luck and good sense are somehow equivalent. If you encounter someone "determined to" go on a shooting rampage at the local grade school I urge you to refrain from trying to "help keep" the grade school "safe". Suggesting he keep his eyes closed to reduce the chance of actually hitting someone is not good advice. CruzMastr > > We just purchased a new Jayco Jayflight 31BHS about a month ago. We > > plan on towing it with our 2001 Suburban 1500 4WD with tow package. We [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I asked a similar question a couple years ago when I was getting > started: http://groups.google.com/group/rec.outdoors.rv-travel/browse_frm/thread/b18004df ebbc2b51 > OP, read that thread. Lots of useful information. I see where "CruzMastr" <cruzmastr@hotmail.com> contributed: >I'm sorry but dangerously stupid behaviour is dangerously stupid and there >is no realistic way to mitigate the fact. Their proposed trip and this [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Suggesting he keep his eyes closed to reduce the chance of actually hitting >someone is not good advice. Hehehehe! Why don't ya just come right out and say what ya think? I especially liked this one, and hope Hugh is reading: :Everyone can find someone who knows someone who towed <insert :very large towed load> for <insert VERY large number> miles with <insert :very small tow vehicle> and never had (circle any or all) <damage, accident, :problems>. This is foolishness and only perpetuates the fantasy that pure :blind luck and good sense are somehow equivalent. Ya gotta love it. I once towed a Caddy ambulance around 200 miles with a '63 Ford Fairlane. It was "legal" but really stupid, arguably one of the dumbest trick I ever pulled. Before the trip was over I knew I shoulda pulled the Ford with the ambulance and risked getting fined because the (retired) Caddy was unlicensed. Lesson: Most of us who KNOW what's wrong with stupid towing combinations have learned at least some of what we know by doing it wrong at one time or another. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > I see where "CruzMastr" <cruzmastr@hotmail.com> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Will Sill Of course I read it. Took it with a grain of salt as well. In over four decades of towing, *I* have *never* had an accident or damaged a trailer while towing. I have made some defensive moves to avoid some jerk from killing us and have never not been in control. What some are trying to do for the original poster is give them ideas of how to make their trip safer. There are many who lurk on this and other newsgroups who may be in similar situations and have need for possible solutions to towing dilemmas. In the crosstalk will be found a meeting of the minds and a compromise may be possible. Some situations are too wrong to be solvable and rational discussion will reveal this. What doesn't work is heated poster bashing attempting to demonize any other viewpoint. Most reasonable people leave the "discussion" when it reaches that point. Hugh |
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