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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / October 2006Campground Owners - We All Start Somewhere
My wife and I have camped for about 35 years. Like many RV'ers we started with humble beginnings. We have worked our way through several tents, a pickup topper, a cab-over camper, two Starcraft pop-ups and eventually during the middle 90's we bought our first travel trailer, a 21' Road Ranger. We currently use a nice 31' Cedar Creek 5th-wheel that we pull behind a 2500HD Duramax and this is the rig that will take us into retirement. However, we seem to have one trait that runs counter to many RV'ers. Even with our trailers, on occasion we get a wild hair and load up our tent, campstove, lawn chairs, sleeping bags and some of the 'real camping' gear we acquired over the years and head out on a one to two week trip. During these trips we usually end up sharing time in campgrounds and motels on about a 50/50 ratio. We often get funny looks from other campers when we mention the rig and home, but that is part of our entertainment (Yeah, we are a little different). What's the point? Point is, it has become very interesting how rude some campground operators are toward the tent crowd. They do offer tent slots and they do take the tent-owners money but much of the remaining relationship is with a 'looking-down-their-nose' attitude. An example: A couple of years ago we took a wild-hair trip from Wichita, down to Taos, over to Chama NM and then on up to Silverton, Ouray, Montrose and over to CO Springs area. We knew there was a pretty nice looking campground near the west station of the Cumbres-Toltec Railroad, in Chama, and our Woodall's described it as offering a full range of RV and tent slots. Their advertisements proudly proclaimed "Tenter's Welcome!" When we arrived, the campground was about 1/2 full. When I told the operator we needed a tent slot I was told "you folks camp in the meadow West of the office. The meadow had trees and was pretty enough but barely above the local water table. It was also very close to the railroad bridge. That evening it became apparent that the campground would not fill and I asked if we could move up to one of the non-hookup slots in the main campground for the remainder of our stay. I offered to pay the $2 or $3 difference. Again I was told tenters stayed below. Irritated by now, I said "So if we had pulled our fifth-wheel out here we could have been treated as first-class customers!" The operator obviously was surprised and commented "If you have a fifth-wheel at home, why the hell are you in a tent?" We moved on the next morning. We have also observed this kind of attitude toward tent-campers at other locations, including some national parks. And yes I know there are many full-service parks that welcome tent or pop-up campers with open arms. Moral of the story to CAMPGROUND OPERATORS: While a few of your big rig owners do start big these days; most of us did start from humble beginnings. A few of us 'big-riggers' even revert to a simpler mode of travel from time to time. If you find yourself looking down your nose at the customers wanting your lower-priced tent slots; you can bet you'll never see them on one of your $30-$40/night fully-wired pads. So there! I feel better now. RonB > My wife and I have camped for about 35 years. Like many RV'ers we started > with humble beginnings. We have worked our way through several tents, a [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > RonB I rarely see that attitude. A tent site is easy money, and unless they exceed person capacity they can always squeeze in another one. What I have seen is transients that are not properly mannered for campgrounds and often use a tent. Some shower, shave and whatever and cook on grills and make a mess. Except for the "make a mess part" no problem so far, until nightfall and the complaints start coming in. These people give tenters a bad name. Perhaps you were at a campground that saw a lot of this. Regards, Tom >My wife and I have camped for about 35 years. Like many RV'ers we started >with humble beginnings. We have worked our way through several tents, a [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Ron, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just wanted to inform you we do not care to cross post.  SignatureBILL P. Just Me & DOG > Ron, I'm not trying to tell you what to do, just wanted to inform you we > do not care to cross post. Gotcha. I am a bit of a newbie over here and had seen some crossposting to other groups. No more from me. Thanks RonB > My wife and I have camped for about 35 years. Like many RV'ers we started > with humble beginnings. We have worked our way through several tents, a [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > RonB I started out with a tent. My wife decided if I wanted her to go camping we'd have to have an RV with a shower. We had an RV for 3 years then I got rid of it. I just can't think of camping as living in a home on wheels. To me camping is in a tent, if I want all the luxuries, I'll stay in a hotel/motel. Eric > I started out with a tent. My wife decided if I wanted her to go > camping we'd have to have an RV with a shower. We had an RV for 3 > years then I got rid of it. I just can't think of camping as living in > a home on wheels. To me camping is in a tent, if I want all the > luxuries, I'll stay in a hotel/motel. Maybe it's time to trim the cross-post list. Them's fightin words round these parts. <G> For the record, I think that many RVers agree that it's not camping. I have an RV and certainly don't consider it camping. What did you think of RonB's points about campground management treating tenters badly? > > I started out with a tent. My wife decided if I wanted her to go > > camping we'd have to have an RV with a shower. We had an RV for 3 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > What did you think of RonB's points about campground management > treating tenters badly? I can't remember being treated badly at any time, but I have noticed that sometimes the tent sites seem to have been thrown in as an afterthought. Actually I like to have a site thats a bit out of the way, as long as H20 and the bathroom aren't to far away. Most of my stays tend to be at State and County sites now a days. I have no animosity towards RVers, they're wonderful people, just to me its something other than camping. Eric I see where "bluezfolk" <ericreh@yahoo.com> contributed: > I started out with a tent. My wife decided if I wanted her to go >camping we'd have to have an RV with a shower. We had an RV for 3 >years then I got rid of it. I just can't think of camping as living in >a home on wheels. To me camping is in a tent, if I want all the >luxuries, I'll stay in a hotel/motel. Different strokes and all that. To us, "luxuries" is having our own stuff where we WANT to be. Have ya heard the one about where can an 800# gorilla sleep? Anyplace he wants. We enjoy sleeping in our own bed, not wondering to whom it was last rented and what their medical status was, and without having to haul suitcases in and out. Our 'motel room' is as warm, cool, or well ventilated as we like. We like having our own bathroom and privacy. We love having *choices*: meals in the rv, or that really nice-looking restaurant. Ponder THAT as you hammer down the interstate in your car, wondering if they used 40-weight Havoline instead of salad dressing at the last take-it-or-leave-it diner with its cardboard cuisine - or the seedy restaurant at the motel! Or fixing breakfast over a smoky campfire. *Flexibility* is a key advantage for us - being able to decide on the spur of the moment to go north instead of west, and not worrying about being at the motel before 6, or wondering if they overbooked. You like sleeping on the ground and stowing a tent during a drizzling rain? Go for it - more power to ya. But please don't look down yer nose at those of us who don't see things exactly as you do. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill I was repremanded (rightfully) from another group for crossposting among these camping and RV groups. I think I understand now!!! This bunch is more lively that the woodworking gangs. RonB >I see where "bluezfolk" <ericreh@yahoo.com> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Will Sill > The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >I see where "bluezfolk" <ericreh@yahoo.com> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Will Sill > The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill For once in who knows how many posts, I agree with Will. Terry Parsons A used to be camper. A now RV'er. Yes we are starting to see the bias towards RV's, especially in our travels this summer. At the Grand Canyon the bus stops right outside the RV park but the campers have to walk 3/4 of a mile to get to the closest bus stop. That's just one small example. Some of our state parks now have campgrounds that only have hook up sites, tenters are welcome but they have to pay the same price as an RV with full hook ups. Campsites seem to be getting smaller but the parking spot for the campsites remain big. Plenty of room to park an RV but little to no room to pitch a tent. I think as the affluent baby boomers start to retire and buy RV's the majority of people will be in RV's as the baby boomers are the majority of the people out there. Don't get me started on the attitudes of RV park attendants towards tenters! We are planning to escape to the back country for our next camping trip. > Moral of the story to CAMPGROUND OPERATORS: While a few of your big rig > owners do start big these days; most of us did start from humble beginnings. > A few of us 'big-riggers' even revert to a simpler mode of travel from time > to time. If you find yourself looking down your nose at the customers > wanting your lower-priced tent slots; you can bet you'll never see them on > one of your $30-$40/night fully-wired pads. Does anyone start with a cargo trailer? I haven't been camping in possibly 20 years, so we don't know if this is even common--given the fuzzy line between toy box tailers and cargo trailers. I had shopped a bit for used travel trailers (you know the usual ones with you know, built-ins), but it seems to me that a cargo trailer stowing whatever one needed for any particular kind of adventure would be more flexible, not to mention more economical. Besides, I have purchased a cargo trailer to escape LA with just my ample library of books and move possibly to Minneapolis or somewhere in Vermont. A travel trailer simply could not have carried my books and my three bicycles and the other things for camping. Now having a cargo trailer, what situation am I in if I want to camp along the way as far as campground owners knowing where to put me and what to charge me? I could still use the hook-ups--power, internet, and water. (Isn't sewage always by the gate?) So I guess I'm talking full hook-ups here, but I don't really know. At my site, I imagine pulling out canopies, tables, computers, sometimes a generator, a gravity fed water filter, an ice maker, ice chest, or whatever would be useful at a particular campsite, but I think such campsites should sprawl more than the compact foot print of an RV with built-ins would. It might even be more than an RV site is designed for, although it wouldn't have to sprawl, I guess. On the other hand, tent sites probably werent designed for trailers. So, my question is: Would I find myself in a camping netherworld between two worlds not fitting into either? Or, would a cargo trailer in tow possibly just be to our benefit --possibly even differentiating me to the campsite manager from the tent-only bums that reportedly misbehave after dark? And if any campground manager were to notice that my "RV" has no windows, I could explain some little known facts about sunlight in my finest Romanian accent. 8-D (I'd actually be sleeping in my van or in a tent.) So, when I'm checking in, what do I tell the manager? The cargo trailer is just full of book, because I'm moving? SignatureJeff > So, when I'm checking in, what do I tell the manager? The cargo trailer > is just full of book, because I'm moving? I don't know why you'd have to tell them anything - just pick a site that works for you. If you stay in those damplaces that assign you a site, first ask why you can't drive through and pick your own. Failing that, just tell them that you want a site to put up a tent. Unless the manager is a blind squirrel, he can see you'll need room for your rig. I don't know how big your cargo trailer is, but when I was pulling a 17-ft TT, many of the NF and SP sites we stayed in also had tent pads. This seems like a non-problem to me unless you tend to stay in CGs that have control freaks as managers - or have more rules than an uppity subdivision. Myself, I drive away from those kinds of places if there's enough daylight left. Signaturebill Theory don't mean squat if it don't work. >> So, when I'm checking in, what do I tell the manager? The cargo >> trailer is just full of book, because I'm moving? > I don't know why you'd have to tell them anything - just pick a site Great! :-) > that works for you. If you stay in those damplaces that assign you a > site, first ask why you can't drive through and pick your own. Failing > that, just tell them that you want a site to put up a tent. Unless the > manager is a blind squirrel, he can see you'll need room for your rig. Maybe I lied. I have been camping in Germany. <eg> I just don't know how it is in US campgrounds. Everything like that in Germany is kind of regimented. > I don't know how big your cargo trailer is, but when I was pulling a > 17-ft TT, many of the NF and SP sites we stayed in also had tent pads. It's just a 10-footer. Oh, and 6 feet wide. Yea, and 6 feet from its floor to its ceiling. > This seems like a non-problem to me unless you tend to stay in CGs that > have control freaks as managers - or have more rules than an uppity > subdivision. That's one of the reasons I'm leaving the suburbs of Los Angeles. > Myself, I drive away from those kinds of places if there's > enough daylight left. I know what you mean. I never got used to it, but I did have to put up with a certain amount of regimentation when I was living in Germany. Here, in the good ol' USA, I don't expect to have to. SignatureJeff <SNIP> >I could still use the hook-ups--power, internet, and water. (Isn't >sewage always by the gate?) So I guess I'm talking full hook-ups here, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >find myself in a camping netherworld between two worlds not fitting into >either? Perhaps, but there are many parks out there that will fit your needs and be happy to accommodate you. You will not be welcome at a 5 star resort with golf, but I don't think that is what you are after. >Or, would a cargo trailer in tow possibly just be to our benefit >--possibly even differentiating me to the campsite manager from the >tent-only bums that reportedly misbehave after dark? <Snip> Hey, the 'Tent Only' bums that mis-behave after dark usually congregate in receptive parks where partying into the wee hours of morning was permissible and normal. . Our's was a FWD club, big trucks with big tires with the beds full of dirt bikes and scuba gear. The camps we frequented catered to the young crowds. When we had an 'official outing' we usually wanted 30+ sites. If you don't want noise and rowdiness ask when you pull in, and also scan the park look for groups that look rowdy. They are easy to spot. We camped out of a 16' box trailer for years. We did almost exactly what you propose. We had a couple of Tarpaulins that hooked to the trailer for shade and shelter and tied to trees or tent poles if necessary. And a couple of large tarps for ground mats. It was great fun, we had a love seat hidabed in the front. And another couch that we could bring out for sitting by the fire. Even a coffee table. A lot of stuff will fit into the trailer and makes 'tent' camping easy. This was back in the 60's and 70's so we let our Freak Flags fly. Within an hour our camp looked like we had been there for days. On a couple of road trips across the country we had no trouble with our trailer. We asked about sites with electricity and usually it was no problem. Although that was many years ago I don't believe that there would be a problem for you to do it now. Have fun. Then we bought a Winny,(and if we could have afforded it, it would have been a Newell )and moved up to more high brow facilities where the quiet hours are from 10pm to 7am. Because some things that were a lot of fun at 20 were a lot less fun at 40. John >> Moral of the story to CAMPGROUND OPERATORS: While a few of your big rig >> owners do start big these days; most of us did start from humble [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > So, when I'm checking in, what do I tell the manager? The cargo trailer is > just full of book, because I'm moving? Hi Jeff, What you have here is just a bigger version of someone tent camping in a big old station wagon. It's just that half of your wagon trails behind a hitch. I am thinking that you can camp wherever you want, as long as it has enough space for your stuff. In going to a campground with hookups, look at what is available (yes, some sites will have a septic line right at the site even, but I think you would not want that in your setup), compare that to what you really want for that night and pick that site. Yep, I said for you to pick your site. You know what you have, how to arrange it and how much and what type of area you will need. Most areas will let you pick from what is unassigned and then sign in. Some that do not might talk you through a selection process looking at a site map when you check in and you will need to make that conversation work with your needs forefront in your mind. Ones that just assign without care as to your needs ought to be avoided anyway, in my opinion. I congratulate you in taking a different-then-most approach to this whole camping thing. It sounds like a plan to me. John.raincrow in his post above has already done what you want to do, so the viability is there. Go for it and please do come back here and keep letting us know how it all works out. Tomes One time back in 87 I had a Plymouth Voyager van and I had a total of 6 people camping.my wife,brother and his wife and our 2 kids. We needed 2 tents and had a big screen house with all the poles... I rented a small 4x6 or 4x8 u-haul and towed it behind the van. It worked out great for hauling all our gear for the 4-5 days we were camping. It rained most of the time so we used it to keep our gear and food dry,along with our wood. Had it really gotten bad we probably could have used it for an emergency shelter as those were built like tanks for the rental trade. My wife and I now own a nice 25ft travel trailer with all the amenities. It didn't matter to the cg owners back then that I towed all the gear in a u-haul or in the back of a pick up truck or travel trailer. I have been to that same campground several times. Had we been treated with disdain I would have never come back. . >>> Moral of the story to CAMPGROUND OPERATORS: While a few of your big rig >>> owners do start big these days; most of us did start from humble [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > works out. > Tomes > One time back in 87 I had a Plymouth Voyager van and I had a total of 6 > people camping.my wife,brother and his wife and our 2 kids. We needed 2 > tents and had a big screen house with all the poles... I rented a small 4x6 Only two tents? I'll bet the experience was too tense! <G> Seriously, did the kids sleep in the van or something? > One time back in 87 I had a Plymouth Voyager van and I had a total of 6 > people camping.my wife,brother and his wife and our 2 kids. We needed 2 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > really gotten bad we probably could have used it for an emergency shelter as > those were built like tanks for the rental trade. snipped I had a '73 Pinto station wagon and the family wanted to go camping with our best friends kids. All together we had 3 of our own and their 3 plus us two and the dog. All the kids wanted to bring their bikes so I put them all in our utility trailer and packed the camping gear on the roof rack. We had a ball. Hugh I used to need all kinds of gear to camp but now I don't need much at all and setting up and taking down camp is so much less work. >One time back in 87 I had a Plymouth Voyager van and I had a total of 6 >people camping.my wife,brother and his wife and our 2 kids. We needed 2 [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] >> works out. >> Tomes > I used to need all kinds of gear to camp but now I don't need much at all and > setting up and taking down camp is so much less work. What do you need now? SignatureJeff >> I used to need all kinds of gear to camp but now I don't need much at all and >> setting up and taking down camp is so much less work. > >What do you need now? Car camping with family: Stove and fuel Tent Sleeping bags and thermarest or foam pads 1 Food Tub 1 bag with pot, pan and cutlery Clothes Headlamps Diapers First Aid Kit Some things I don't need anymore: Hatchet Inflatable air matteress and air compresor Heavy Lantern Card Table and chairs (use the picnic table now) Play Pen (confine baby #2 in the tent when needed) Portable radio >>> I used to need all kinds of gear to camp but now I don't need much at >>> all and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Diapers > First Aid Kit I don't need diapers yet. I can still make it to the latrine. After dark it gets easier. Tom >>>> I used to need all kinds of gear to camp but now I don't need much at >>>> all and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Tom LOL.. by this time next year our youngest should be out of diapers but who knows maybe our oldest family member will be in diapers.. :) > One time back in 87 I had a Plymouth Voyager van and I had a total of 6 > people camping.my wife,brother and his wife and our 2 kids. We needed 2 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > really gotten bad we probably could have used it for an emergency shelter as > those were built like tanks for the rental trade. It could even be that the wood lined cargo trailer would be warmer than the Voyager without it's engine running. SignatureJeff > I congratulate you in taking a different-then-most approach to this whole > camping thing. Thanks. Haven't done it yet. Well, the price of gas is down 22 cents, the campgrounds are at the off-season prices, and the weather is Viking on down to my preference, so I ought to give it a first try soon. > It sounds like a plan to me. John.raincrow in his post > above has already done what you want to do, so the viability is there. Go > for it and please do come back here and keep letting us know how it all > works out. So far, all I have to put in the trailer for camping is a canopy, a mosquito tent to hang inside the canopy, a couple of camping chairs, an ice chest, an extension cord, an APC surge protector, a shortwave radio, a laptop, and a Wallmart-special card table, and a bicycle. I was about to Velcro mosquito netting over the inside of the van's windows for air sleeping in the van, but I think mosquito season is ending. I don't suppose the car is actually warmer than a tent, anyway. It's only safer against bears and curious Yettie. I have thought of other things to buy, but I suspect its better to get some experience and only buy something that I end up wishing I had brought. In that case, I'd find out slowly but surely whether I really need the extra weight, expense, and trouble of something, such as a generator, an ice maker, a second ice chest, golf cart batteries, a hammock, a cot, a chaise lounge, five-gallon buckets with a luggage carrier or a wheeled water tank, a USB/WiFi Internet adapter for my laptop, or so on. Of course if anyone has done this sort of thing, he might save me some inconvenience by being so kind as to recommend something before I learn the need of it for myself after a dire lack of it. SignatureJeff > Moral of the story to CAMPGROUND OPERATORS: While a few of your big rig > owners do start big these days; most of us did start from humble beginnings. > A few of us 'big-riggers' even revert to a simpler mode of travel from time > to time. If you find yourself looking down your nose at the customers > wanting your lower-priced tent slots; you can bet you'll never see them on > one of your $30-$40/night fully-wired pads. I agree there is no excuse for rudeness from operators. However, they do have the right and need to cater to both crowds. When I go to an RV resort or campground with my big rig I may not want tent campers camped all around me. Same goes when I tent camp. I do not want a bunch of RV's parked around me. I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: > When I go to an RV >resort or campground with my big rig I may not want tent campers camped >all around me. Same goes when I tent camp. I do not want a bunch of >RV's parked around me. Why? Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: > >> When I go to an RV >>resort or campground with my big rig I may not want tent campers camped >>all around me. Same goes when I tent camp. I do not want a bunch of >>RV's parked around me. Sounds like it would be better for all concerned if you just stuck to your driveway. STeve >> I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > STeve Why? Why not visit a campground or RV park that suits my needs for the current trip? If I tent camp I go where my tent camping needs are met. If I use my RV, I go where my RV'ing needs are met. Nothing wrong with an owner catering to their customers needs. Nothing wrong with a RV park saying NO to tent campers. Nothing wrong with a campground saying NO to RV's. I do have an advantage over many RV'ers and tent campers in many other states. Where I live I can camp most anywhere I want in the open forest far away from others. That can't be done in many states where the only choice is at an approved campground or RV park. > I do have an advantage over many RV'ers and tent campers in many other > states. Where I live I can camp most anywhere I want in the open forest > far away from others. That can't be done in many states where the only > choice is at an approved campground or RV park. You're preaching to the choir, my boy. I live in Nevada. I rarely rent a space. 87% of Nevada land is federal. We just returned from a Labor Day weekend at Coral Pink Sand Dunes, southern Utah. We camped in a very quiet private place on a dirt road at the very edge of the place just off Hancock Road. All the drunks and rowdies were confined to a place they call "The Meadow", although it is only a meadow around it. Inside the fenced off compound, it is dusty brown dirt, and a cow pond full of cow ......... well, you know. The regular campground was full of people who had made reservations last year, and who made next year's while they were there. Don't agree with that one whit. First come, first served, I say, but that is another topic. A really awesome weekend riding some fast machines. Weather was beautiful at 6000+' elevation. But yes, I do a lot of remote camping. The less I see of society and mankind, the better I feel. Campgrounds? In a REAL pinch, and then only maybe. I'll boondock or even stay a few hours at a truck stop until it's light enough to find a spot in the Outback. I get out to get away from morons, not to camp next to them. Steve > I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Why? Because thats what I prefer. I do not want a bunch of RV'ers parked all around me when tent camping. It ruins the experience to me. Might as well just pitch a tent in a Walmart parking lot. It's two different groups with different expectations. I like them both, just not at the same time. >> Moral of the story to CAMPGROUND OPERATORS: While a few of your big >> rig owners do start big these days; most of us did start from humble >> beginnings. A few of us 'big-riggers' even revert to a simpler mode of >> travel from time to time. If you find yourself looking down your nose >> at the customers wanting your lower-priced tent slots; you can bet >> you'll never see them on one of your $30-$40/night fully-wired pads. > I agree there is no excuse for rudeness from operators. However, they > do have the right and need to cater to both crowds. When I go to an RV > resort or campground with my big rig I may not want tent campers camped > all around me. Same goes when I tent camp. I do not want a bunch of > RV's parked around me. In Europe the MH often had wheeled tanks for grey water or what have you so that they could dump at a central location that didn't have a driveway, but only a walkway. The dripping into these things around my tent made worry at first whether any of them were sewage and might end up missing the container somewhere around me. Or, maybe the European motorhomes that are used for caravaning just don't come with restrooms inside. I don't know. I never checked it. On the other hand, a lot of tenters are like noisy busy squirrels with zippers zinging and unmuffled talking and whispering and clanging and hissing of cooking in the open. I don't think kitchen noises really escape the motorhomes. So yea: I can see how separation between tin boxers and tenters who are expecting different kinds of experiences could be beneficial. SignatureJeff I suppose from the CAMPGROUND OPERATORS point of view , Is that if everyone would quit complaining about cooking noise or zipper noise, when your CAMPING.And quit playing the my crap tank is better then yours game, with your transient neighbor. And remember your within feet of each other, in a public park or campground, BY YOUR CHOICE. Because you're not willing to go rustic in the middle of nowhere for some peace and quiet. He wouldn't have to separate the infantile crybabies into groups in an attempt to not piss off anyone involved. Or decide upon first sight in two seconds who the antisocial complainers are, or who has their nose in the air, and get them isolated somewhere until they get fed up and leave. >>> Moral of the story to CAMPGROUND OPERATORS: While a few of your big rig >>> owners do start big these days; most of us did start from humble [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > So yea: I can see how separation between tin boxers and tenters who are > expecting different kinds of experiences could be beneficial. |
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