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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / September 2006

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Towing a light-weight with a GMC Envoy 4X4

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jayco1007 - 02 Sep 2006 03:41 GMT
Hi there, hoping to get some of your views on this:

We current have a 2002 GMC Envoy 4X4 SUV, with an inline 6 cylinder
engine. We have the factory towing package, and we also had an
additional transmission cooler installer, the largest we could get.
Right now we are towing a 2006 Jayco 1007 Tent Trailer with no problems
at all, has a total gross weight of 2300 pounds.

Now that we know we really enjoy camping in the great outdoors, we are
hoping to keep our GMC Envoy and trade the Jayco TT in for some sort of
Hybrid Light Weight Trailer. Our Envoy is rated for towing 5000 pounds.
We have looked at some Hybrids out there weight as little as 4300
pounds fully loaded. Has anybody had any experience towing a light
weight trailer with an Envoy?

We once did see a coupe towing a Hybrid with an Envoy at a campsite we
were at, but didn't have a chance to chat with them.

Looking forward to hear you opinions on this.

Thanks
Mark Jones - 02 Sep 2006 04:41 GMT
> Hi there, hoping to get some of your views on this:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Looking forward to hear you opinions on this.

The recommendation from a lot of people is to limit the
weight to no more than 75% of what the vehicle is rated
for. That would be 3750 pounds. One problem you will run
into as well is that your vehicle has a short wheelbase that
will make it a bit unstable.
Will Sill - 02 Sep 2006 13:15 GMT
I see where "jayco1007" <ostafie@shaw.ca> contributed:
>Hi there, hoping to get some of your views on this:

> . . . . we are
>hoping to keep our GMC Envoy and trade the Jayco TT in for some sort of
>Hybrid Light Weight Trailer. Our Envoy is rated for towing 5000 pounds.

Please don't try it.  The Envoy is too tall, too short, and will not
be able to give you a safe, comfortable ride with a two-ton trailer.
The fact that a few people have survived while towing big trailers
with Jeeps (imitation and otherwise) does not make doing so a good
idea.

Congratulations for having the good sense to ask before trying it.

See the following verbiage - old but relevant.  Especially note #10:

===============

It is my firmly-held opinion that  - on average - manufacturers'
maximum tow ratings are optimistic and presume near-ideal
conditions and a fair amount of operator skill. I continue to
recommend that people buying equipment to tow (or be towed) try
to stay well *under* the maximum. I like a 75% target, on the
basis that it provides a safety/reliability/comfort cushion for
steep grades, bad roads, and emergency maneuvers.  In recent
years as the bulk of traffic has moved over to the interstate
system, I've become increasingly concerned with the number of
people who sincerely believe it is OK to drag their long long
tri-axle trailer (at 125% of tow rating) at 75 mph with their
leetl pick-em-up.

    [There is even the Hensley hitch character going about    
    like a side show barker with his video showing an    
    Intrepid hauling a 9,600 lb trailer! This is FIVE TIMES
    the tow rating, ladies & gents! The product is good but
    the marketing is near-fraudulent.]

Bottom line:  there's a great deal more to tow ratings than
power.  To get some perspective on that, consider the average
over-the-road truck. Typically 400 horsepower or less to haul
80,000 pounds.  Do your own math.

And consider this reasoning for a 75% recomendtion:

There is pretty general agreement that it is unwise and possibly
dangerous to EXCEED maximum ratings, but many of us with long
trailering experience have found that tow rating information is
often misleading - or at least not applicable to everyone.

1. The tow rating is ALWAYS a maximum figure, and is as large as the
manufacturer dares make it. They hope you will buy their stuff for
towing.  Their rating may or may not be right for you.  Every maker
has his own methods of setting tow ratings. Some are conservative
and some are ludicrously over-stated (many Jeep Cherokees were rated
at 5,000 lbs, and IMO are hopelessly overloaded at that figure).

2. MOST tow ratings (nothing personal or specific vs your brand)
do not allow for long steep grades - up or (especially) down.

3. Most tow ratings make no allowance for bad road conditions.

4. Most tow ratings are accompanied by asterisks that call attention
to special equipment "required". Your rig may not have those features.

5. Most tow ratings make no allowance whatever for emergency
maneuvers.  I assure you your vehicle WILL NOT turn or stop as
fast or as safely with the maximum load as it will with a lot less.
The difference can be dramatic. Don't believe me?  Try a few tactics
in a large parking lot.

6. Vehicle tow ratings make no allowance for the DRIVER'S "tow
rating".  No insult intended, but if you have to ask how much your
rig will tow, you have neither the experience or the knowledge to
handle the maximum load safely.  IMO.

7. One of the most-overlooked factors in safe towing is a COMBINED
maximum (GCWR = Gross Combined Weight Rating, often only found in
a towing guide) that dictates a much lighter-than-maximum TOWED load.
Most of the weight of cargo & passengers in the tow vehicle must be
deducted from the permissible towed load to find the true rating.
Some towing guides appear to gloss over this issue because the
marketing types want to put the best possible face on their product.

8. What is reasonably safe and comfortable at 45 mph may well be a
lethal weapon at 75.  Tow ratings, IMO, do NOT reflect any respect for
this hazard.  

9. An internal combustion engine loses about 2 1/2 to 3% efficiency
per thousand feet.  You can easily lose 15-18% in the mountains
unless you have a turbocharger or supercharger.

10.  Regardless of weight ratings, SUV's and "1/2'-ton" pickups are
mostly useless for serious towing.  They will handle pop-ups and even
some of the short "lite" trailers - and will haul yer big one out to
the lake if you are careful.  But competent handling of a large TT
requires a long wheelbase & short overhang.  

Someone once wrote: "You can tow anything with anything - the question
is how far, how safely?"

BOTTOM LINE:  IF you trust the experienced trailerists who have been
there and done that and don't want to go back, you will not exceed
about 75% of the rated maximum.  The number is of course not writ by
the finger of God on a stone tablet - it is merely an indication that
you should stay well below the manufacturer's maximum allowance if you
want a safe, comfortable trip.  Some say the figure ought to be as low
as 50 or 60%.  But except for a few macho braggarts, most experienced
folks agree in principle if not detail with these concerns. For
example, go to http://www.popuptimes.com/archives/75rule.asp
   
==============

Will Sill - towing trailers for 50+ years
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Jeff - 02 Sep 2006 21:42 GMT
> 10.  Regardless of weight ratings, SUV's and "1/2'-ton" pickups are
> mostly useless for serious towing.  They will handle pop-ups and even
> some of the short "lite" trailers - and will haul yer big one out to
> the lake if you are careful.  But competent handling of a large TT
> requires a long wheelbase & short overhang.  

How would I be doing safety-wise with a Chevy Astro compact van (not the
extended version) pulling a Wells Cargo, 10 foot, 900 lb. cargo trailer
with a 2000 lb load of boxed books? I think the van has a short wheel
base, but also a short overhang.

The van's engine is a Vortex V6, 4.3 liter with around 170 HP. Do you
think I could get over the continental divide on I15, in Montana I guess
it is, or in Colorado--what is it the I70--depending on which route I
ultimately decide taking?
Signature

Jeff

Will Sill - 02 Sep 2006 22:34 GMT
I see where Jeff <jefferio007@earthlink.net> contributed:

>How would I be doing safety-wise with a Chevy Astro compact van (not the
>extended version) pulling a Wells Cargo, 10 foot, 900 lb. cargo trailer
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>it is, or in Colorado--what is it the I70--depending on which route I
>ultimately decide taking?

People do that sort of thing all the time, and most of them survive
without cooking the tranny.  Most of them.  I absolutely do NOT
recommend such a combo, because the extra 1 1/2 tons puts a lot of
extra strain on the drive train and especially the brakess.

But the main reason I don't recommend it is simple - if you have to
ask, that means you lack confidence and experience towing.  Far too
many people think if they can get the rig up to speed without smoke or
funny noises, they are good to go.  

Congratulations for having the good sense to ask.

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Jeff - 02 Sep 2006 23:35 GMT
>>How would I be doing safety-wise with a Chevy Astro compact van (not the
>>extended version) pulling a Wells Cargo, 10 foot, 900 lb. cargo trailer
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>it is, or in Colorado--what is it the I70--depending on which route I
>>ultimately decide taking?

> People do that sort of thing all the time, and most of them survive
> without cooking the tranny.  Most of them.  

My tranny was rebuilt a few years ago with a trans cooler and the tranny
technician drilled some extra holes in some part inside the transmission
that he said make it a lot more robust.

That rebuiding was necessary because I had to learn the hard way that
the Astro vans throw their transmission fluid up and out through the
filler tube if you drive too fast without overdrive on.

Anyway, so I'm pretty much convinced the transmission is a lot better
than the stock one that comes with the Astro vans.

Anyway, I'm content to go up steep grades as slow as about 38 miles per
hour or low-mid-range rpms in second gear, whatever speed that is.
Conserving expensive gas is reason enough by itself. Overheating the
transmission is a the lesser concern.

Now my differential is noisy, but they always are in these vans. I would
worry about that more. So, I will take it easy on the hills to keep this
getting hot. I've got new oil in it. And if it fails on an up hill I'll
be going slow anyway. And on the downhill, I can hear how it is faring.

What I am wondering now, is whether when a differential goes, could a
rear wheel lock up? If not, then recovery is less dangerous.

> I absolutely do NOT
> recommend such a combo, because the extra 1 1/2 tons puts a lot of
> extra strain on the drive train and especially the brakess.

Okay, I wouldn't recommend it to others either, but I think I can get
away with it. I don't have much trailering experience, but I have the
engineering background, and it is a short trailer without sloshing tanks
of liquid as travel trailers invariably do.

I was thinking about adding brakes to the trailer. The Wells Cargo
outlet quoted 500 dollars to do so for me. I'm not so keen on the cost
when I won't be mountain driving most of the time. I've braked very hard
on the flat roads of town and stopping was very quick with no sway.

I know how to keep brakes from overheating by down shifting, and using
short firm braking (while perfectly straight before entering any curve).
Besides, such a short trailer with a tight (non liquid) load and axle
set well back as these are wouldn't cause swaying during such braking.

If I were to do a more than a minimal amount of mountain driving, I'd
get the trailer brakes.

Now with the trailer wheels so far back, it requires care to keep the
hitch weight down. I secured the heaviest boxes of books over the axles.
I can get my hitch weight down where I want it between 230 and 300
pounds well enough.

The van is rated by Chevy with a 200 pound hitch rating. I figure on
getting away with more, because the rear benches are removed to the
trailer (part of its 2000 pound load) there is no other loadbed of the
van. The van's rear springs are actually riding high with the sub-300
pounds hitch weight. The rear tires are new and not at all bulging
abnormally from the sub-300 pound hitch weight. The hitch is pretty near
the rear axle of the van, because it is not an extended van therefore
doesn't have much overhang. So I think that I don't think I need a
weight redistributing hitch.

> But the main reason I don't recommend it is simple - if you have to
> ask, that means you lack confidence and experience towing.  

That's true. I don't have anything like your experience. No telling
about a confidence. Just because I ask doesn't mean my motivation for
asking is a lack of confidence. ;-)

> Far too
> many people think if they can get the rig up to speed without smoke or
> funny noises, they are good to go.  

Not me. I've researching this for a few months already, even though an
acquaintance of the kind about which you just spoke has been saying you
learn by doing not by researching and he drove a van like mine with a
huge boat across several states many times. I personally think he's
reckless.

> Congratulations for having the good sense to ask.

Thanks. And I look forward to more criticisms. :-)
Signature

Jeff

Frank Tabor - 02 Sep 2006 23:52 GMT
>The van is rated by Chevy with a 200 pound hitch rating. I figure on
>getting away with more, because the rear benches are removed to the
>trailer (part of its 2000 pound load) there is no other loadbed of the
>van.

You could cut the whole a.s end of the van off and it wouldn't
increase the hitch rating of 200 lbs.  That's all the components it's
mounted to are rated for.  Exceeding the hitch rating is foolish and
dangerous.
Jeff - 03 Sep 2006 00:19 GMT
>>The van is rated by Chevy with a 200 pound hitch rating. I figure on
>>getting away with more, because the rear benches are removed to the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> mounted to are rated for.  Exceeding the hitch rating is foolish and
> dangerous.

Chevy okays subframe to 600 lbs weight at the hitch with a weight
redistributing hitch.

Therefore, I figured the 200-lb non-redistributed rating is because of
headlight aim, getting squirrely steering if the front end if levered up
by a heavy hitch loading, or because the rating allows for 8 people and
the heavy benches in the bed, which none of which would be present
during any of my towing scenarios.

I'd be about 80 pounds over the hitch weight. If I made the hitch weight
less, I'd be losing too much of the normal force needed on the braking
wheels for braking traction.

To avoid this, I could replace the hitch with a weight distributing
hitch, but these also have some drawbacks such as causing too little
rear-wheel traction on up hills or slick surfaces.

I think its a trade-off.

By the way, the actual hitch itself is rated enough at 300
unredistributed and 600 redistributed.

Aside from the issue of hitch weight, the van outweighs the loaded
trailer by a good measure and Chevy okays pulling trailers about 2000
pounds more than this 2900 lb trailer. So, there I've got oodles of
safety margin together. I figure Chevy considers the brake strength and
sway (tail wag the dog) factor when arriving at this number.
Signature

Jeff

Jeff - 03 Sep 2006 00:28 GMT
> Chevy okays subframe to 600 lbs weight at the hitch with a weight
> redistributing hitch.

I was remembering the limit for the receiver. I'm now remembering 750
lbs redistributed hitch weight for Chevy Astros and as before only 200
lbs for the non-redistributed case.

So, I think that the subframe on the back of these Astros is pretty
sturdy--sturdy enough I thinkfor the 280 lbs I want.
Signature

Jeff

Jon Porter - 03 Sep 2006 20:09 GMT
> Therefore, I figured the 200-lb non-redistributed rating is because of
> headlight aim, getting squirrely steering if the front end if levered up
> by a heavy hitch loading, or because the rating allows for 8 people and
> the heavy benches in the bed, which none of which would be present during
> any of my towing scenarios.

Check those figures again and pay attention to the GCVW for van and trailer
combined. Being at the top end of the weight rating for towing could mean
that the load carried inside the van needs to be reduced.
Signature

Jon
JPinOH

RonB - 04 Sep 2006 02:20 GMT
>I see where "jayco1007" <ostafie@shaw.ca> contributed:
>>Hi there, hoping to get some of your views on this:
>
>> . . . . we are
>>hoping to keep our GMC Envoy and trade the Jayco TT in for some sort of
>>Hybrid Light Weight Trailer. Our Envoy is rated for towing 5000 pounds.

Agree with Will.  Years ago we pulled a 21' Road Ranger behind a full-sized
'86 Blazer and it was not good match.  The Blazer had a 305 cu in engine
which was probably a litttle more horsey than your 6 cyl.  We pulled with a
load leveler and single sway control and you had to "drive" the vehicle
constantly with the trailer.  The Blazer had too little wheelbase and too
little power to pull the high-profile travel trailer.  I even had a VERY
scary experience pulling a 20' flat-bed with about 1-1/2 tons of firewood
(severe sway that lasted more than one mile).  Even with transmission
cooling we cooked one batch of transmission fluid.  Gas milage ran around
6-7 in best conditions; and down to 4 in any kind of wind.

RonB
Rick Onanian - 04 Sep 2006 13:22 GMT
> Agree with Will.  Years ago we pulled a 21' Road Ranger behind a full-sized
> '86 Blazer and it was not good match.  The Blazer had a 305 cu in engine

While I won't offer any opinion on whether it will reasonably well do
the job in question, I'm willing to bet that a 2002 model will tow a
whole lot more than a 1986 model, and do so a whole lot safer.

I just looked up the numbers, and a 2002 Envoy has more curb weight,
length, and wheelbase than a 1986 full-size Blazer. The Envoy's 6 cyl
engine also has oodles more HP and significantly more torque than any
of the V8 engines (including the diesel!) in the 1986 Blazer, although
that has nothing whatsoever to do with safety.

My sources:
http://coloradok5.com/specs.shtml#1986
http://www.coloradok5.com/brochures/1986/blazer7.jpg
http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/Used/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/2544/Act/usedc
arreviewspecs/


> scary experience pulling a 20' flat-bed with about 1-1/2 tons of firewood
> (severe sway that lasted more than one mile).  Even with transmission

I call BS. I doubt you would last a mile with "severe sway" if you were
dumb enough to keep driving at all -- but I also doubt anybody would
have the balls to keep driving for a whole mile with "severe sway".
Also, a flatbed is much less prone to sway (axles further back, no side
area to catch wind), although with the tongue load so heavy, I'm sure
the front end had little traction, so the Blazer could have been
swaying while the trailer tracked relatively straight...
CoachPotato - 02 Sep 2006 15:41 GMT
I had an '02 Trailblazer 2WD with which I towed a 24' Mallard. I had
the same engine as you mention. I believe the tow rating was 5100 or
so, yours may be less with the 4WD.

There is also the GCWR or combination of tow vehicle/trailer which I
read somewhere is about 10,500 lbs for that Trailblazer, but not
certain of that.

The TBlazer was a fine tow rig for that trailer, but we were near the
limit. We used a weight distribution hitch which is required on heavier
towing, about 4000 lbs as I recall. That WD hitch set up was a pain and
I hated messing with it.

An unacceptable trait of the Trailblazer as tow vehicle was its small
gas tank, about 17 gallons, as I recall. Our towing range wasn't much
more than 100 miles. That lousy range was a deal killer for me; we sold
the Mallard after about six months and bought a motor home.

GM knows more about your Envoy than do the know-it-alls who tell you to
stay way below the factory ratings. The factories have too much to lose
to advertise unsafe tow ratings. The nay-sayers aren't GM engineers.

Good luck.

Dale
www.FishWisher.com
Mark Jones - 02 Sep 2006 17:49 GMT
> GM knows more about your Envoy than do the know-it-alls who tell you
> to stay way below the factory ratings. The factories have too much to
> lose to advertise unsafe tow ratings. The nay-sayers aren't GM
> engineers.

The factory ratings are for near perfect conditions with your
vehicle in new condition. That is seldom the case, so that
is why you do not want to tow at the maximum.

If you are towing at the maximum and you get into an
emergency situation, you are in trouble.
Mountain Mike^^ - 02 Sep 2006 18:02 GMT
> If you are towing at the maximum and you get into an
> emergency situation, you are in trouble.

If anyone is considering towing at the mx, they are already in trouble.

My best friend, the stubborn one, decided to buy a fiver as big as he could
tow with his Chevy 1500. Sure it had the tow package, the bigger springs,
the works. But a short bed. Against my advice, he bought a 26" Nomad,
w/slider. 6131# DRY........He says his manual allows him 8000#..sure.

He just got it home from the dealer, Didn't bother to put big mirrors on,
either. After he got out of the truck, he had white knuckes. 10 miles. IT
hasn't moved in a week. I doubt if it will till he gets a bigger truck.
HD in NY - 02 Sep 2006 19:42 GMT
>>If you are towing at the maximum and you get into an
>>emergency situation, you are in trouble.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> either. After he got out of the truck, he had white knuckes. 10 miles. IT
> hasn't moved in a week. I doubt if it will till he gets a bigger truck.

I don't believe you. Doesn't even make sense. If you'd said it was a
travel trailer then I'd sorta believe your "observation". You saying
it was a 5th wheel gives you away. Not saying he won't be in trouble
but it won't come from the rig being unstable on the road. It will
come from his bed weight being too much and the rear wheel bearings
letting go. The 150/1500 rear axles will lose the axle when the
bearing slips in the race and the whole hub will come out.

I've seen fools towing a lot bigger 5th wheels than the one you
mention and stability was not an issue. I even met a fool who had
bought a double slide 5th (living room and bedroom slides) and he had
already towed it from Nova Scotia to Florida and was on hiss way back
when we met him in Georgia. I asked him if he had any problem towing
it with his 4x4 Silverado club cab, short box and he said "no". All he
noted was he had to go slow up any steep grades. I did note his rear
was down quite a bit. I know he was way overloaded, not only in gross
combined weight but in bed weight also.

It's always best, when giving anecdotal advice, to know what sounds
like bs and what will be construed as plausible. You may be a nice guy
in person but your post doesn't ring true.
Hugh
CoachPotato - 02 Sep 2006 18:11 GMT
> The factory ratings are for near perfect conditions with your
> vehicle in new condition. That is seldom the case, so that
> is why you do not want to tow at the maximum.
>
> If you are towing at the maximum and you get into an
> emergency situation, you are in trouble.

<sigh> Thanks for saving us all, Mark!

GM states a tow rating and folks can generally make their own opinions
based on the manufacturers knowledge of their own products. I think we
can all live with that and without the endless warnings of the
Internet's self appointed Chicken Littles.

Folks of your ilk, always preaching ultra-safety and sounding like the
final expert opinion on everything automotive become, well... tiring.

Dale
Mountain Mike^^ - 02 Sep 2006 18:26 GMT
--
MM^^
> Folks of your ilk, always preaching ultra-safety and sounding like the
> final expert opinion on everything automotive become, well... tiring.
>
> Dale

Most people learn things in one of 3 ways, IMHO. By an instructor, by
studying on their own, or by the experience of others. A few stubborn ones
can only learn from their own mistakes. You'll eventually get it, but the
price is awfully high. It's a free country, people can learn/do/not do/make
mistakes at will. I have no problem with that. But it seems that when people
come here asking for help, they generally want some. A few, naturally just
want justification for a decision already made......but they are easily
spotted and ignored. Which category are you in?
CoachPotato - 02 Sep 2006 19:21 GMT
> Most people learn things in one of 3 ways, IMHO. By an instructor, by
> studying on their own, or by the experience of others. A few stubborn ones
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> want justification for a decision already made......but they are easily
> spotted and ignored. Which category are you in?

I am in the helping category.

A nice couple asked a simple question about their Envoy. I have first
hand experience towing a 24' travel trailer with a Trailblazer, a
nearly identical model. I told them clearly and accurately of my
experience and what I considered the good and the bad of my actual
experience. I also related GM's ratings as well as I recall them. My
post would likely be considered a helpful post, directly related to the
original question.

I have actual experience towing with my Trailblazer at near maximum
weight. I have several thousand miles of such driving, through the
Rockies to Colorado and back, and many miles around California. I saw
good and bad weather, all types of traffic situations, and (surprise!)
enjoyed safe trips every time. Fortunately, I had no knowledge of your
"expertise" - so we had a wonderful time.

I still don't know what your learned recommendation might be. You
slapped up a very generic response which had little to do with the
actual topic of this thread.

Your response seemed to be to agree with the "experts" who know more
than GM or someone who might actually have experience in the matter. By
God, you just know better than the manufacturer.

And as a matter of fact, I have often peed on the electric fence to
learn the hard way. However, I have years of experience towing
trailers, so this case isn't one of them.

You and yours can carry on a pissing match if you wish, but count me
out.

Dale
www.fishwisher.com
Mountain Mike^^ - 02 Sep 2006 19:32 GMT
> You and yours can carry on a pissing match if you wish, but count me
> out.

No pissing match for me, I would lose. But in a Johnson contest, using a
yard stick................

So, I stand corrected. You have the experience. That counts for a lot. I'll
defer to your experience here.

MM^^<--knows when to shut up
HD in NY - 02 Sep 2006 19:45 GMT
> --
> MM^^
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> want justification for a decision already made......but they are easily
> spotted and ignored. Which category are you in?

...and some people think they can bs their way through advice. Your
post about your friend put you in that category.
Hugh
Mountain Mike^^ - 02 Sep 2006 20:00 GMT
> ...and some people think they can bs their way through advice. Your
> post about your friend put you in that category.
> Hugh

Listen, Pal, what I said was the absolute truth. You want his e-mail, phone
#, and verification of it all? And yes, his bed weight calculated by me in a
hurry was just under 2000#. He said, "NO, it's only about 700>"

I shut up because when you're dealing with fools, it's a no win situation.
Which are you? Take me up on my offer and apologize? Or prove to the world
what an a.shole you are?

MM^^<--your choice, buddy
HD in NY - 03 Sep 2006 00:37 GMT
>>...and some people think they can bs their way through advice. Your
>>post about your friend put you in that category.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> MM^^<--your choice, buddy

Sorry, no apology. I know your take on his rig is wrong. I already
gave you an actual observation when I related the meeting I had in
Georgia. The guy had a 30'+ 5th wheel, a double slide. Bedroom and
living room super slide. The truck was either an '02 or '03 Silverado
1500 club cab with the short box. Naturally he had a tow package and I
know what that consisted of because I had an '02 Sierra. His engine
had to be the 5.3L V8 and he may have had the 4.1 axle ratios. I'm
pretty darn certain his hitch weight was a lot more than the 2,000 lbs
you say your friends was. He had dragged the trailer several thousand
miles already and I talked to his wife. She told me they had a tow
behind with a different ruck and it was a nightmare. They bought their
present rig and she couldn't say enough good about how it towed.

I've talked to and seen dragged down the road a ton of lighter 5th
wheel trailers towed by 150/1500 pickups and though I don't think it's
a good idea for the reason I gave, they do not make for an unpleasant
towing experience.

Plus, unless you actually weighed his bed weight, your guess is just
that, a guess. You may in fact be close but if you are, the 2,000 lbs
you cite would not make for a white knuckle experience. In other words
"buddy", I still think you're talking through your hat.
Hugh
Mountain Mike^^ - 03 Sep 2006 00:49 GMT
> you cite would not make for a white knuckle experience. In other words
> "buddy", I still think you're talking through your hat.
> Hugh

Well, then see? It's not all that hard to be civil..............I don't
really know the WHY of his deal, he hit the bottle too soon for me to get a
coherent answer. Seems the big rigs wouldn't get off his a.s or something,
and he couldn't see to change lanes. And BTW, his RE ratio is 3.8 something,
If I remember right. That little Silverado with the stepside bed looks like
a toy under that thing. He has stand-up (almost) bedroom in front and the
wind resistance must be huge. So, maybe he'll drive it just fine. I suggest
he head your way. Which mountain do you want to meet-up on?

MM^^<--wouldn't tow my beer cans in a half ton.
HD in NY - 03 Sep 2006 02:05 GMT
>>you cite would not make for a white knuckle experience. In other words
>>"buddy", I still think you're talking through your hat.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> MM^^<--wouldn't tow my beer cans in a half ton.

What year is this truck? GM hasn't had a 3.8 rear end for far longer
than I know. It could be a 3.08, 3.42, 3.73 or a 4.10. The 4.10 was
only available for the 1500 4x4. Are you perchance saying his truck is
a standard cab, short box? If so, I agree his towing experience was a
nightmare. That would be a 117"+/- wb and that would also suggest it
would be a poor tow rig.

You didn't reveal any of the particulars in your first account. If the
joker was towing plastered, he oughta be dropped off a cliff.
Hugh
Mountain Mike^^ - 03 Sep 2006 07:33 GMT
> What year is this truck? GM hasn't had a 3.8 rear end for far longer
> than I know.

I think about a 1996. X-cab, stepside bed. Based on your choices (and
remembering mine of 4:10 it was a 3.73 which is CLOSE to 3.8, right?)

> You didn't reveal any of the particulars in your first account. If the
> joker was towing plastered, he oughta be dropped off a cliff.
> Hugh

No, not then. Only after. I called him today, and he had taken it to a get
together 8 miles away. Sort of in the boonies. Private property thing. But
no, he does drink some, but not when he's working or driving. (he's your
railroad conductor). BUT, he's stubborn and will not do his homework. (like
most people I've found out). Is used to paying for service, and not having
to check it out himself. While I'm at it, I may as well tell you that he's a
one-way SOB, and I do stuff like custom fit a door for him, and he doesn't
have the time to help unload lumber. When I quote facts, he quotes
*expectations.* All in all, a really terrible friend. But, I seem to love
him just the same. (why do I do it??).

Anyway, I bet him $10 he would get another truck after/before 3 trips in
this rig.............We'll see.

MM^^
Rick Onanian - 03 Sep 2006 13:06 GMT
> Listen, Pal, what I said was the absolute truth. You want his e-mail, phone
> #, and verification of it all? And yes, his bed weight calculated by me in a
> hurry was just under 2000#. He said, "NO, it's only about 700>"

Either Hugh is right, or your friend's truck is broken (or really old).
My 2002 GMC 1500 4x4 doesn't even notice 2000 pounds. My TT weighs 6000
pounds and the truck tows it like a champ, even with the bed loaded
with firewood and propane tanks and such, probably totalling 2000
pounds in combination with the tongue weight of the TT.

I can induce sway in the trailer, at highway speeds, by yanking the
steering wheel as hard as I have the balls to do. However, it quickly
straightens out, and I am unable to make it push the truck around.

Once, I towed a flatbed with an 18' beer truck body on it, which I
think probably weighed >8000, and tongue weight had to be at least 2000
based on how much it made the truck sag (much more than 2000 pounds of
roofing in the bed does, but the weight was on the hitch way behind the
axle, not centered over the axle like a load in the bed). With my
high-geared rear-end, it was slow uphill, but the whole thing handled
fine. I admit, I wouldn't want to tow a trailer like that
recreationally, or daily on the highway -- but it certainly wasn't
scary.

If your friend's truck is recent (1999 or newer), tell him it's broken
and he needs to get it fixed. Even if his doesn't have all the factory
towing equipment that mine has, I just can't imagine a scary ride in
the situation you described -- difficult, maybe, but not scary.

Perhaps I'm wrong and a base model 1500 2wd with coil front springs and
no "HD Towing Suspension" package really would be awful.
Mark Jones - 02 Sep 2006 21:35 GMT
>> The factory ratings are for near perfect conditions with your
>> vehicle in new condition. That is seldom the case, so that
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Folks of your ilk, always preaching ultra-safety and sounding like the
> final expert opinion on everything automotive become, well... tiring.

In my opinion, you a a f.cking idiot for thinking that pushing
things to the limit is safe. Encouraging others to engage in
this stupidity is even worse. If you want to do this, do it well
away from the rest of us. I do not want to end up in an
accident with an idiot such as yourself.
HD in NY - 02 Sep 2006 19:25 GMT
>>GM knows more about your Envoy than do the know-it-alls who tell you
>>to stay way below the factory ratings. The factories have too much to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If you are towing at the maximum and you get into an
> emergency situation, you are in trouble.

If you are towing at 75% of max and get into an emergency situation
you are in trouble. Other than that I generally agree with you.
Hugh
Mark Jones - 02 Sep 2006 21:38 GMT
>>> GM knows more about your Envoy than do the know-it-alls who tell you
>>> to stay way below the factory ratings. The factories have too much
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> If you are towing at 75% of max and get into an emergency situation
> you are in trouble. Other than that I generally agree with you.

You might stand a chance at 75%, but at 100% you won't
stand a chance.
HD in NY - 03 Sep 2006 01:06 GMT
>>>>GM knows more about your Envoy than do the know-it-alls who tell you
>>>>to stay way below the factory ratings. The factories have too much
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> You might stand a chance at 75%, but at 100% you won't
> stand a chance.

If you're in trouble at 75%, the additional trouble from being at 100%
won't matter. You lose a trailers footing at 75% and its as much gone
as at 100%. That goes for the inverse as well. You can make a 150/1500
as stable as a 250/2500 just by adding a leaf or air bags to the rear.
Stiffening up the towing platform doesn't make the tow chassis any
more able to carry more than the rated load but it will stabilize the
platform and make for good performance in an emergency situation.

We had a situation while going south last year. We were making our
move to an outside lane on I81 to merge onto I66. We were already in
the merge lane and a car to our right didn't see us. He pulled into
our lane and I had to switch to the next lane to our left. By impulse
I also hit the brakes. The trailer did a few flips from side to side,
enough to break the water tank loose and send it through the hallway
wall. Everything straightened out rather quickly and we continued on.

This was an '03 Dodge Ram quad cab, short box, 1500 towing an '00 HR
Alumascape 29fks super slide travel trailer. It's dry weight, as
weighed at the factory is 7,000 lbs and we were probably at 8,000 lbs.
Hugh
Will Sill - 02 Sep 2006 22:28 GMT
I see where "CoachPotato" <fishwishr@yahoo.com> contributed:

>GM knows more about your Envoy than do the know-it-alls who tell you to
>stay way below the factory ratings. The factories have too much to lose
>to advertise unsafe tow ratings. The nay-sayers aren't GM engineers.

Bullshit.

I find that there is almost ALWAYS some twit who disagrees with my
POV. In a way, I suppose that is confirmation that I give good advice.
I've been towing longer than most readers have been alive, and spent a
lot of years as a Safety Engineer.  So I know from hands-on personal
experience (as well as the bad experiences of others) what works well
and what does not.  

You absolutely CAN pull all but the most overweight TT's with yer yard
tractor.  On the level in good conditions.  What you CANNOT do with
any short, undersized tow vehicle is control the combination safely at
highway speeds - especially when the slightest unanticipated crisis
arises.  

Bottom line: you nitwits who actually believe that (for example) an
Envoy can safely tow 5,000 lbs need only to read the fine print in the
towing recommendations.  The large print giveth and the fine print
taketh away.  

Since I do not make recommendations couched in sales verbiage, I just
tell you like it is.   You are free to do whatever you like.

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
CoachPotato - 02 Sep 2006 23:50 GMT
> I see where "CoachPotato" <fishwishr@yahoo.com> contributed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Will Sill
> The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill

Certainly, sir and now I know that everyone who disagrees with you, the
esteemed Will Sill the curmudgeon of Sill Hill, is a twit, a nitwit and
full of bullshit. Just as he made perfectly clear, once again, in the
above.

I stand corrected. My hands on experience here is no match for Will's
endless flow of opinion, as anyone can measure simply by checking his
profile.

He is an expert on any item you wish to discuss. When facts get in the
way, an endless stream of name calling and cussin' will flow from him
as easily as his endless knowledge about nearly any subject that
appears.

My apologies for speaking from experience, I should have known...

<plonk>

Dale
www.fishwisher.com
Mountain Mike^^ - 03 Sep 2006 00:51 GMT
> <plonk>

Now if we could only Will to <plonk> himself................
jayco1007 - 04 Sep 2006 16:08 GMT
Thank you everyone for your advice, opinions and suggestions. We have
reviewed everyone's input. . . . .and bottom line is: I guess we'll be
sticking it in out for while with out Envoy and Jayco Tent Trailer.
Looks like we may have to wait a few years before we can make a
purchase of a new vehicle, as well as trading in out Tent Trailer.
Thanks everyone for your valuable input.
JAYCO1007
Tomes - 05 Sep 2006 17:33 GMT
> Thank you everyone for your advice, opinions and suggestions. We have
> reviewed everyone's input. . . . .and bottom line is: I guess we'll be
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Thanks everyone for your valuable input.
> JAYCO1007

Perhaps you can rent one and try it out....
Tomes
jayco1007 - 04 Sep 2006 16:08 GMT
Thank you everyone for your advice, opinions and suggestions. We have
reviewed everyone's input. . . . .and bottom line is: I guess we'll be
sticking it in out for while with out Envoy and Jayco Tent Trailer.
Looks like we may have to wait a few years before we can make a
purchase of a new vehicle, as well as trading in out Tent Trailer.
Thanks everyone for your valuable input.
JAYCO1007
 
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