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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / October 2006

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Durango and Other options for smallish fiver

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J & S - 03 Oct 2006 02:07 GMT
A month ago I ask a question titled "Lightweight Fiver Questions," thank you
all for your answers.  Since then we traveled to Hershey, PA to study a few
manufacturers and found very few smaller fivers at the show or anywhere
really.  To date we think the KZ Durango 255RL may achieve most of what we
are looking for with a few compromises.  The KZ seems to be better made than
some but we wonder where it falls in the market?  Has anyone had experiences
with the Durango line that would care to comment?

As we haven't found a model that reaches all our goals (5th wheel; 27 ft or
under total, king bed, rear living area with chairs and pull out sofa or
jack knife gaucho), MDH suggested an idea of two campers, a travel trailer
about (20 ft) pulled by a truck camper.  This gives us the storage, length,
sleeping space for 3 or 4 and ability to leave the trailer behind for
backcountry trips.  Has anyone tried this combination?  I am wondering what
the drawbacks to this might be.  In particular, is this too much weight on
the bed or bumper so as to affect handling of the 3/4 ton or ton truck?
Could there be problems with turning or backing up this combination due to
having the travel trailer on the truck with the truck camper?

Thanks in advance,

Shelley
SnoMan - 03 Oct 2006 02:47 GMT
>MDH suggested an idea of two campers, a travel trailer
>about (20 ft) pulled by a truck camper.  This gives us the storage, length,
>sleeping space for 3 or 4 and ability to leave the trailer behind for
>backcountry trips.  Has anyone tried this combination?  I am wondering what
>the drawbacks to this might be.  In particular, is this too much weight on
>the bed or bumper so as to affect handling of the 3/4 ton or ton truck?

This depends a lot on the truck as newer 3/4 tons have less spring in
the back than models of the 80's and 90's as Detriot strive to make
them ride nicer for sales. There was a time with a 3/4 ton truck was a
very serious load hauler but not today and if you look at some 80's
model 1/2 tons you will find that they have basically the same amount
of rear springs as a new 3/4 ton. (example, my 89 1/2 ton 4x4 burb 5
big leafs and a booster in rear while a 2500HD has 4 and a booster
with same leaf thickness). I would not recommand a slid in camper and
a pull type TT behind a new 3/4 ton unless you add a few leafs to the
rear to stiffen it up some. Otherwise consider at least a SRW 1 ton
model for this if you are not into adding a few leafs yourself to
greatly improve stabilty. BTW new 2500 and 3500SRW trucks share same
frame, axle and brakes, only the springs are different in the rear so
you can build a "poor mans" 1 ton easily from one. Suspension issues
aside, your idea has merit.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Rick Onanian - 03 Oct 2006 11:28 GMT
> This depends a lot on the truck as newer 3/4 tons have less spring in
> the back than models of the 80's and 90's as Detriot strive to make
[snipped: Uninformed-sounding stuff]

Have you actually tried to haul anything with a modern pickup? New "half
ton" models haul loads that "3/4 ton" models did twelve years ago.
Modern "3/4 ton" models are factory rated for payloads of 3,000 pounds
or more, and probably overload better than old trucks too. Yeah, the
springs look like less, but they work better (maybe they're made of
different alloys?). New trucks may ride soft and have lame-looking
springs, but they haul like nobody's business.

> rear to stiffen it up some. Otherwise consider at least a SRW 1 ton
> model for this if you are not into adding a few leafs yourself to
> greatly improve stabilty.

To get stability with the suggested rig, it will probably be necessary
to get a modern "1 ton" with dual rear wheels. Besides the weight,
there's also a high center of gravity on the truck, combined with the
stability required for towing the trailer.

> BTW new 2500 and 3500SRW trucks share same
> frame, axle and brakes, only the springs are different in the rear so
> you can build a "poor mans" 1 ton easily from one. Suspension issues

I used to think the same thing, but I'm not so sure now. More people in
rec.outdoors.rv-travel will know for sure.
SnoMan - 03 Oct 2006 13:35 GMT
>> This depends a lot on the truck as newer 3/4 tons have less spring in
>> the back than models of the 80's and 90's as Detriot strive to make
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>different alloys?). New trucks may ride soft and have lame-looking
>springs, but they haul like nobody's business.

I have been hauling for over 35 years and the suspensions on some new
3/4 ton trucks is a joke. Get a 86 HD 3/4 chevy or Ford and but 3K in
it and then in a new one and the difference is very obviuos. A 2500HD
sucks with 3 K in it. Once I hauld a 3500 pound tractor in the bed of
a 72 3/4 ton truck 200 miles on highway and it was a piece of cake
with load capacity to spare. Doing it with a 2500HD it woul be
dragging butt big time and have stabilty issues. I have a old style
2000 K3500 SRW with a rated GVW or "only" 9200 (same as a 2500 HD) but
is has more rear spring in it that the 2500 HD and will easily out
carry the 2500HD (I have had 2 tons in it more than once) You should
check out the link below as I have started to picture catalog the
differences and I have more that I will be adding for all models as
well as for older still models. BTW even the 1 ton DRW dodge have less
spring today than 10 years ago.
http://forum.snoman.com/viewforum.php?f=63

>> rear to stiffen it up some. Otherwise consider at least a SRW 1 ton
>> model for this if you are not into adding a few leafs yourself to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>there's also a high center of gravity on the truck, combined with the
>stability required for towing the trailer.

Your comment has merit but it would be doable with the proper SRW with
correct suspension under it because as new trucks ship you will over
power the new weakened suspensions long before the axle and tires. It
is all about improving ride for sales.

> > BTW new 2500 and 3500SRW trucks share same
>> frame, axle and brakes, only the springs are different in the rear so
>> you can build a "poor mans" 1 ton easily from one. Suspension issues
>
>I used to think the same thing, but I'm not so sure now. More people in
>rec.outdoors.rv-travel will know for sure.

You are mistaken, I have done a LOT of tech research on this and the
major brands use the exact same chassis, brakes, axles and such on
2500 and  3500 SRW to control cost factors. The ONLY difference is the
springs in rear, maybe tires (265R16 E instead of 245R16 E) and a
sticker or decal on door. Anyone that says otherwise has not really
looked into it. DRW also use same chassis as well but different
springs and rear axle assembly (usually still same basic axle with
different hubs and brakes on it) The rear axle shipped in modern 3/4
tons trucks are usually good for at least 4 tons but the springs will
crap out long before that and even stock tires will exceed reworld
capacity of stock suspension as well on a 2500 today. Detriot is free
to do what they want here.  
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Rick Onanian - 03 Oct 2006 14:59 GMT
Note: I moved one portion from the middle to the top, since that's
probably the only piece of interest to the OP.

> On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 06:28:57 -0400, Rick Onanian wrote
>>To get stability with the suggested rig, it will probably be necessary
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Your comment has merit but it would be doable with the proper SRW with

The dual rear wheels provide traction (so trailer sway won't push the
truck around) and extra width for stability. Common pickup campers are
very tall and very heavy, and therefore raise the center of gravity,
resulting in reduced stability. Towing a trailer requires lots of stability.

>>Have you actually tried to haul anything with a modern pickup? New "half
>
> I have been hauling for over 35 years and the suspensions on some new
> 3/4 ton trucks is a joke. Get a 86 HD 3/4 chevy or Ford and but 3K in
> it and then in a new one and the difference is very obviuos. A 2500HD

For 2500 and 3500 series pickups, I can only judge by what I've seen on
the road. I know the weight of roof shingles or dirt by sight, having
dealt with those loads often enough. That said, my observation of modern
vs. older trucks is that the older ones look way overloaded.

> check out the link below as I have started to picture catalog the
> differences and I have more that I will be adding for all models as
> well as for older still models. BTW even the 1 ton DRW dodge have less
> spring today than 10 years ago.
> http://forum.snoman.com/viewforum.php?f=63

You're stuck on quantity and physical dimensions of spring leaf. I don't
think that's valid anymore; based on what I've oberserved of HD pickups,
and experienced in 1500 and compact pickups, it is obvious to me that
spring technology has changed. Either the leafs are made of a different
alloy, or maybe they are shorter in length, or whatever.

My 2002 GMC 1500 has the wimpiest looking springs I've ever seen, but
they carry more load with less squat than ballsy looking springs in
other trucks. My cousin's mid-80s F250, for example, has a big leaf
bundle the way you like, but squats easier than my miniscule setup.

2000 pounds in my truck bed is barely noticable, and very easy to forget
while driving. It still looks level, and feels stable, and rides like a
car at that load -- and that's technically overloaded, with my payload
capacity rated about 1800 including my fat a.s, my ladder racks, and the
pile of junk in my backseat.

I'll try to get you a picture of the springs in my truck. One day, I
made a few runs that turned out to be about 3000 pounds (against my
better judgement*), and that DID cause a lot of squat -- it wasn't
bottomed out, but the rear was somewhat lower than the front.

*: I went to the jobsite, an hour and a half drive, and found out we
needed some loam. If the site was closer, I'd have gone back for the
dumptruck. I went to the gravel yard and asked for 1/2 yard of loam. I
got at least 3/4 yard of sopping wet mud (filled the bed, heaping over
the top, dripping everywhere). I made two more runs like that.

> correct suspension under it because as new trucks ship you will over
> power the new weakened suspensions long before the axle and tires. It
> is all about improving ride for sales.

I suspect that, until the late 1990s, not a lot of engineering effort
was put into trucks -- they were simple workhorses until manufacturers
determined that people would pay through the nose for something more.
Now, with profit margins many times that of a car, they're worth the
extra engineering to get both ride and capacity.

>>>BTW new 2500 and 3500SRW trucks share same
>>>frame, axle and brakes, only the springs are different in the rear so
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You are mistaken, I have done a LOT of tech research on this and the

I _haven't_ done that particular research, so it's easy enough for me to
believe, as I used to.
SnoMan - 04 Oct 2006 01:39 GMT
>The dual rear wheels provide traction (so trailer sway won't push the
>truck around) and extra width for stability. Common pickup campers are
>very tall and very heavy, and therefore raise the center of gravity,
>resulting in reduced stability. Towing a trailer requires lots of stability.

Dual wheels have there pluses and minuses and at not the must have
that some claim them to be. I have towed some very serious trailers at
highway speeds and some that weighed 14k and a lotmore and I never had
any stabilty issues with any of them on a SRW truck because I make
darn sure on have the proper springs and tires in the rear. I also run
tongue weight well over 1000 lbs too and never use a weight
distributing hitch (I tried one a few times and did not like it)
because if you have the proper tow vehical with the correct tires,
hitch and suspension, you really do not need it. If your vehicle is so
mushy that it has control issues with a 500 or 800 lbs hitch load then
you really need a better tow vehical. There may be a few cases were
one might be needed but it is largely used to allow vehciles that
should not be towing to begin with get by.  Besides I mostly use a
pintle hitch these days anyway for the thing I tow which is not weight
distributing freindly  but very easy to couple and decouple in any
weather and very strong yet simple too.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Rick Onanian - 04 Oct 2006 02:27 GMT
> On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 13:59:58 GMT, Rick Onanian wrote
>>truck around) and extra width for stability. Common pickup campers are
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> any stabilty issues with any of them on a SRW truck because I make
> darn sure on have the proper springs and tires in the rear. I also run

Ah, but you didn't have the severely raised center of gravity provided
by the truck camper while towing such trailers.

> hitch and suspension, you really do not need it. If your vehicle is so
> mushy that it has control issues with a 500 or 800 lbs hitch load then
> you really need a better tow vehical. There may be a few cases were

I know you weren't addressing my particular rig, but this reminds me: My
TT has a tongue weight of ~700 pounds (depending on how I load it and
what's in the tanks, all of which are at the far rear), and hitched
_without_ weight distributing, the whole rig handles great. I do use a
weight distributing hitch, but only to comply with the law.

> one might be needed but it is largely used to allow vehciles that
> should not be towing to begin with get by.

I'm not so sure about that; the same could be said of stiffer springs,
or lighter trailers. The evidence seems to show that a WDH is a decent
component of many rigs, not necessarily a band-aid for a jury-rigged
deathtrap. I do, however, feel good knowing that my rig is stable and
safe without one, and will probably attempt to keep things that way with
future rigs.
 
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