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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / October 2006Cap vs no cap tow vehicle
I couldn't find a cargo trailer newsgroup so I thought I'd ask here. I'll be getting a new gasoline powered 1/2 ton truck and 6 or 7'x14' cargo trailer soon. I have the option of getting a Snugtop Super Sport cap on the truck from the factory at a reasonable price. I'm thinking about getting it for general day to day usage. Assuming the cap extends the cab height of 5'10" and bed width of 5' to approximately 3'4" infront of the 7'8" high by 6.5-7.5' wide trailer, will the cap have any positive or negative impact on fuel economy/transmission stress when towing this trailer? In my mind it would have a some positive impact but I'm not sure that is true or how much of a difference we're talking. Any real world experience with a gasser towing a 8' tall trailer with and without a cab height cap? (begin can of worms that probably shouldn't be opened) The only reason I'm pondering removing the cap sometimes when towing is carrying that extra weight around. Its weight probably puts me within 100lbs of GVWR with just me and the usual equipment plus a reese straight-arrow hitch and the maximum 650lb tongue weight. In those cases I'd rather not exceed GVWR for safety and legal reasons so no passengers or stuff in the bed when towing fully loaded with the ~250lb cap. When less than fully loaded (most of the time) its just extra weight to push up the hill. No, I don't see myself buying a diesel dually to drive 150k non-towing miles and 20k towing miles, especially since most of the towing will be WELL below 6000lbs. (end can of worms that probably shouldn't be opened) TIA! >I couldn't find a cargo trailer newsgroup so I thought I'd ask here. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >TIA! Do not buy a new 1/2 ton truck for this as the suspensions are a joke if you plan to haul something in bed and trailer, get a 3/4 model here at least as 1/2 ton are now little more than cars with truck bodies on them as they have tried to soften rides as much as possible for car replacement sales. See link below http://forum.snoman.com/viewtopic.php?t=217 ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>No, I don't see myself buying a diesel dually to drive 150k non-towing >>miles and 20k towing miles, especially since most of the towing will >>be WELL below 6000lbs. > > Do not buy a new 1/2 ton truck for this as the suspensions are a joke As we've discussed in a recent thread, I disagree, based on my own experience. 2002 GMC 1500 with "Trailering/Handling Suspension Package". Rides soft. Doesn't squat much under the ~700 pound tongue weight of my 26' TT with plain weight-carrying hitch or with Husky weight-distributing hitch. Handles great, is very stable with either hitch. A heavier truck, besides possibly not being as pleasant of a ride for the 150k non-towing miles, will also get better fuel efficiency. OP: That trailer would be a piece of cake for my 1/2 ton. You won't need the Straight-Arrow hitch you mentioned with a similar truck. For your situation, with few towing miles and many solo miles, it is optimum. >>I couldn't find a cargo trailer newsgroup so I thought I'd ask here. >> [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com With all due respect, you're full of it. Why don't you drop your mindless patter on this subject and leave it to those who actually have the knowledge to answer. Hugh > I couldn't find a cargo trailer newsgroup so I thought I'd ask here. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > TIA! The cap will help a bit (1-2 MPG) but not necessarily a lot since the described trailer is both taller and wider than the truck+cap combo. BTDT Your main issue will be the wind resistance presented by the front of the trailer which, in turn, will act like a drag racer's parachute. This will place quite a bit of a strain on your drivetrain. If you can find one of the cargo trailers with a "V"-shaped "nose", you'll find that it will (1) be more economical to pull and (2) place a noticeably lesser strain on the drivetrain than the "slab-front" styles. When towing a brake-equipped trailer, the main issue is Frontal Area/Wind Resistance - not weight - and aerodynamics becomes a key factor. Length is a relatively minor concern which enters only during turns and the selection of a parking place. BTW, you might want to consider a 250/2500 rather than the 150/1500 because, for the ~$100 difference in price, you get a noticeably higher GVWR with little change in ride quality. <G> FWIW, my '03.5 Dodge RAM 3500 Diesel Dually IS my "Daily Driver" of preference. <VBG> At 7' tall by 8' wide, towing a small cargo trailer isn't the strain that pulling our 38' FW is - and, at that, it isn't much of one. One of its best qualities is its cornering: as flat and tight as an F1 racer. >When towing a brake-equipped trailer, the main issue is Frontal Area/Wind >Resistance - not weight - and aerodynamics becomes a key factor. > >Length is a relatively minor concern which enters only during turns and >the selection of a parking place. Not exactly, while frontal drag is a concern it is not much of a factor below 60 MPH or so but weight is always a factor to get moving, keep moving and especailly to climb grades. Length is more than this because a longer trailer does have a bit more frictional drag on sides ,from air passing over it it also effect srabilty and CG in sudden conditions and in crosswinds. There are no free lunches here those some may cost less, they still cost. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>When towing a brake-equipped trailer, the main issue is Frontal Area/Wind >>Resistance - not weight - and aerodynamics becomes a key factor. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > factor below 60 MPH or so but weight is always a factor to get moving, > keep moving and especailly to climb grades. Funny that you should say that - I durned near roasted the engine in my last truck [GMC 1500] when, on level ground, I attempted to exceed 45 MPH while towing a 6x8 U-Haul van-type trailer! You just go on believing this BS that you spout, SnoMan, but quit trying to "Snow" people who are asking for reliable information. > Length is more than this because a longer trailer does have a bit more > frictional drag on sides ,from air passing over it it also effect > srabilty and CG in sudden conditions and in crosswinds. There are no > free lunches here those some may cost less, they still cost. > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com Dream on, Boob, Dream On! Now go back to your non-tobacco cigarettes before the Narcs raid you again. >Funny that you should say that - I durned near roasted the engine in my last >truck [GMC 1500] when, on level ground, I attempted to exceed 45 MPH while >towing a 6x8 U-Haul van-type trailer! > >You just go on believing this BS that you spout, SnoMan, but quit trying to >"Snow" people who are asking for reliable information. You nearly roasted your engine because of a few possible combinations, first your clutch fan was not working properly, second you have a vehicle with a really tall axle ratio and because of this you were towing is converter stall which is a big heat generator because then radiator has to cool engine and tranny extra. My guess if that you had a combination of both. If the trailer about fried your motor it is because you vehical was very marginal in cooling and towing capacity to begin with, not because of trailer. The trailer only brought to light your vehicals true lack of cooling capacity and reserve as well as its lack of towing abilty (towing abilty is not only having the force to move load but also to stay cool while doing it) Most new stock 1/2 ton trucks make very poor tow vehicals that are greatly over rated by detriot and have tall axles and limited cooling to limit fan noise and cost and weak suspensions for car like ride. When I by a truck, I buy it for a truck to work not as a car replacement and I get it equipped as such. Because of this my 4x4's old and new will tow even when it is 95 out and keep their cool because if they do not, I do not want them in my driveway.. I see people like you that "know" just enough to be dangerous. People come to group to ask questions and you come here to start trouble and when the physics involved exceed your understanding you talk insults. You can disagree and be civil but I guess you have not figured that out yet. Also if you think that towing at 60 or less does not have a lot less drage, take a trip with a large frontal area at 55 to 60 MPH and record MPG then do it at 70 MPH. Then there is head wind and tail wind to consider because even 55MPH into a stiff head wind it a hard pull at times while with a stiff tail wind it can be easy. The towing world is not a controlled lab and has lots of variables. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com snipped > You nearly roasted your engine because of a few possible combinations, > first your clutch fan was not working properly, second you have a snipped > TheSnoMan.com Sure ain't hard to whoosh you is it <lmao>. Hugh > Funny that you should say that - I durned near roasted the engine in > my last truck [GMC 1500] when, on level ground, I attempted to exceed > 45 MPH while towing a 6x8 U-Haul van-type trailer! You must have had some problems with your truck. We towed one of the large dual axle U-haul trailers from northern Louisiana to central Missouri through the Ozark mountains and did it without any problems at all. This trailer was fully loaded with a lot of weight. This was done in the spring of 1974. The tow vehicle was a 1972 Chevy Impala with a 400 ci small block and turbo 400 automatic transmission. I was still driving this car in 1982 and it had never had any major engine or transmission repairs. >> Funny that you should say that - I durned near roasted the engine in >> my last truck [GMC 1500] when, on level ground, I attempted to exceed >> 45 MPH while towing a 6x8 U-Haul van-type trailer! When we towed a TT with our '91 1500 suburban, we had to drop out of overdrive and tow in third gear as the top gear was a bit tall and as well as load being too much for that gear and shaft. In third it would still have the go to get in the left lane and run with the big dogs if needed. Leanne >>> Funny that you should say that - I durned near roasted the engine in >>> my last truck [GMC 1500] when, on level ground, I attempted to exceed [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Leanne Leanne,'you sound like someone I'd want to meet. >You must have had some problems with your truck. I was thinking the same thing. Back in January '74 I did a road trip from NC to western NY state (near where Hugh lives) to move my sister back to NC after she finished a graduate degree at Eastman. I took with me an empty 6x12, dual-axle, U-Haul trailer (rented at "local" daily rate -- MUCH cheaper than one-way/drop-off). When I got there we loaded it to the gills -- even tied stuff onto the tongue A-frame -- and headed back home. My tow vehicle was a well-used, full-sized '65 Ford S/W (fake woodie, peeling) that I'd bought on the cheap and then put curtains and a bed in the back to use as a rudimentary camper of sorts -- my first RV. It also was loaded to the hilt on the trip, including the roof rack. There were three humans on board as well as three drugged, crated cats -- which, come to think of it, is a great way to keep cats <g> (sorry, Kevin). We probably looked like Okies.... We had no mechanical problems except for a split heater hose, which -- after we disconnected the heater -- made it a "fun" trip in the bitter January cold. But the engine and drive train performed well and never showed any ill effects. Not saying anybody SHOULD do this, and I wouldn't do it again. But I did it then and didn't feel unsafe. GB in NC > Funny that you should say that - I durned near roasted the engine in my last > truck [GMC 1500] when, on level ground, I attempted to exceed 45 MPH while > towing a 6x8 U-Haul van-type trailer! That's unbelievable. I'd like to know more details. >> Funny that you should say that - I durned near roasted the engine in >> my last truck [GMC 1500] when, on level ground, I attempted to exceed >> 45 MPH while towing a 6x8 U-Haul van-type trailer! > > That's unbelievable. I'd like to know more details. C'mon guys and gals, he's spoofin' snoman. Hugh HD in NY <hbdandvsd@nodamnspamyahoo.com> wrote in news:12id52kcdcdtmf5 @corp.supernews.com: >>> Funny that you should say that - I durned near roasted the engine in >>> my last truck [GMC 1500] when, on level ground, I attempted to exceed [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > C'mon guys and gals, he's spoofin' snoman. > Hugh Actually not, Hugh: the truck was an '81 GMC 1500 "Heavy Half" with a *250 CID* 6-Cylinder. <G> 85 honest HP. 3-on-the-tree. HD cooling system, though. <G> The drag of that trailer was a bear: I'd towed cars, trucks, and lower utility trailers and never had any problems but *that* 75-mile trip taught me a serious lesson concerning Aerodynamic Drag. The trailer contained ~ 300# of furniture (I'd already transported the "heavy" stuff in the bed of the truck on previous runs). In fact, the only reason for using the trailer at all was for that furniture since it wouldn't fit under the cab-height cap over the bed. Jump forward 20 years. While heading North on I-29, after stopping off at the Sioux Falls, SD, Flying-J, Wind Warnings went out for the SD, ND, and MN areas due to sustained 60 MPH winds. [Some OTR trucks had, unfortunately, been overturned by side winds.] Since the wind was coming from the South, I had the pleasurable experience of motoring along from Sioux Falls to Drayton, ND, while getting the same fuel mileage TOWING MY 7-TON, 12'9" HIGH, Fifth-Wheel that I normally get when NOT TOWING. Just another example of the effects of Aerodynamic Drag. BTW, I enjoyed that 5 MPG savings! <VBG> After all, it allowed me to bypass my usual refuelling stop in Fargo, ND. >Actually not, Hugh: the truck was an '81 GMC 1500 "Heavy Half" with a *250 >CID* 6-Cylinder. <G> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >utility trailers and never had any problems but *that* 75-mile trip taught >me a serious lesson concerning Aerodynamic Drag. In 1981 the 250 was rated at 115HPat 3600 RPM with 200ftlbs of torque at 2000. The puzzle fits together a lot better now because without doubt given age of truck the cooling system was well pluged up and not HD anymore (radiator core) and a truck of that era would have had tall gears because it was made during gas crunch then (I remember it well) so it would not be suited well for towing. It would not of overheated though if cooling system was operating properly as lead raditor salt blockages are common on old radiators of that era. A tip, if you find yourself over heating, turn heater/defroster on full and it may save your bacon untill you can get it fixed. (it can get a bit warm in car but better than walking) Back around 74 I towed a fullsize car on a hauler from Ohio to Tennesse near North Carolina border with a 66 Chey 3/4 ton with a 250 and a stock 4.57 rear axle. It had no problem doing it even in hilly areas. It never even got hot either though it was summer when we did it and we averaged between 11 and 12 MPG too. You can move a lot of weight with a six with proper gearing and cooling. Also back in later 70's I knew a old man that had a 57 chevy C60 single axle dump truck with a 261 and a 8 speed (4x2) and he used to haul 8 tons of gravel or blacktop to make extra money. Truck was stock and cherry and it had no trouble getting around that I ever saw. Heck back then too I drove a C70 triaxel with a 427 and a 20 speed (5x4) it it moved 20 tons of gravel or blacktop with a fair amount of easy at a rated GVW of 60K (state limit) but on a few city paving jobs we got a wavier to run 70K (25 tons of blacktop) and it did okay even at that weight. Somehow we seemed to have survived quite well back then without diesels though mentality today is that you cannot do it without one. It is all in matching engines power curve to load and keeping motor cool and nothing more. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>Actually not, Hugh: the truck was an '81 GMC 1500 "Heavy Half" with a *250 >>CID* 6-Cylinder. <G> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > though if cooling system was operating properly as lead raditor salt > blockages are common on old radiators of that era. Nice try, SnowMan, but, as I said earlier, the '81 GMC was my L_A_S_T truck - and it was only 3 years old at the time. <G> BTW, If you believed that 115 HP claim, I know a *very large* collection of Salescritters who'd love to meet you. <VBG> FWIW, I sold that '81 GMC back in '95 - with ~250K miles on it - to a co-worker who used it as his daily driver for another 10 years. Since April, 2003, I've been driving an '03.5 Dodge RAM 3500 CTD(HO) Laramie Quad-Cab 4WD ASD LB DRW with the 48RE auto and 4.10 gears in both differentials. <VVBG> I see where "RAM³" <s31924.nospam@netscape.net> contributed stories about towing, including this memory jogger: >Since the wind was coming from the South, I had the pleasurable experience >of motoring along from Sioux Falls to Drayton, ND, while getting the same [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >BTW, I enjoyed that 5 MPG savings! <VBG> After all, it allowed me to bypass >my usual refuelling stop in Fargo, ND. Our dusty travel notes from our 1972 trip to the Rockies records buying 12.3 gallons of gas in Fargo for $3.19 - yes, that's $0.259/gal. And on the topic of getting a push: many years later our current class B got 19mpg traveling across ND on 200 - with a brisk tailwind. Will Sill Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often. > HD in NY <hbdandvsd@nodamnspamyahoo.com> wrote in news:12id52kcdcdtmf5 > @corp.supernews.com: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > BTW, I enjoyed that 5 MPG savings! <VBG> After all, it allowed me to bypass > my usual refuelling stop in Fargo, ND. Okay, I dig <g>. Think you may even have related that story before. Drag does make a difference. We got as high as 12 mpg towing our Award to Florida and back. Probably averaged 10 to 11 mpg overall with our '96 GMC 1500, 4.3L V6. Same truck towing a similar weight HR trailer only did 9 mpg tops. The Award had a much more streamlined shape than the boxy HR. Hugh > Okay, I dig <g>. Think you may even have related that story before. Drag > does make a difference. We got as high as 12 mpg towing our Award to > Florida and back. Probably averaged 10 to 11 mpg overall with our '96 GMC > 1500, 4.3L V6. Same truck towing a similar weight HR trailer only did 9 > mpg tops. The Award had a much more streamlined shape than the boxy HR. > Hugh Perhaps the best indicator of the effect of towed-vehicle-generated Aerodynamic Drag upon the towing vehicle is the notation in Ford's Towing Guide which states " FRONTAL AREA CONSIDERATIONS Frontal Area Limitations/ Vehicle Line Considerations With F-250/F-350 Super Duty 60 sq. ft. All Applications Frontal area is the total area in square feet that a moving vehicle and trailer exposes to air resistance. The chart shows the limitations that must be considered in selecting a vehicle/trailer combination. Exceeding these limitations may significantly reduce the performance of your towing vehicle. Selecting a trailer with a low-drag, rounded front design will help optimize performance and fuel economy." >I couldn't find a cargo trailer newsgroup so I thought I'd ask here. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >experience with a gasser towing a 8' tall trailer with and without >a cab height cap? I wouldn't own one. Ever put stuff in the truck with a cap on? It is a head banger no matter how careful you are. > I'll be getting a new gasoline powered 1/2 ton truck and 6 or 7'x14' > cargo trailer soon. I have the option of getting a Snugtop Super > Sport cap on the truck from the factory at a reasonable price. I'm > thinking about getting it for general day to day usage. A FACTORY topper? Who? What? Where? <g> A link or two would be appreciated. > [Deleted: Much excellent musing about pickup fuel efficiency > with/without a covered box.] Get the cap. Amen. (no joke) Our first pickup (our last, an S10) sported a cab-high, fiberglass topper with slide-opening, screened side windows. Nice. Rubber bed mat, too. Very nice. It was of my design. Now, five years later with its replacement, our Silverado enjoys a cab-high, fiberglass topper with slide-opening, screened side windows. ...and the rubber bed mat. It, too, is very nice. Motivating a "brick" (the pickup) through the air at 70 mph while that brick is towing another HEAVY "brick" (aerodynamically speaking) takes a LOT of fuel. There would be NO WAY one could reasonably expect REAL payback of the CO$T of the topper in fuel consumption improvement, if any. The cap is there for your vanity or utility only. If you don't need the open box to tow a fifthwheel or gooseneck trailer, a topper is a GREAT idea, IMHO. Our first one was BOLTED on, and I never regretted it. The Silverado's was SUPPOSED to be bolted-on but my request didn't make it into the installation bay when the topper was installed so it came out front CLAMPED on. (A common attachment) I decided to live with the clamps and they haven't been a problem. I have even mounted a Yakima bike rack atop with five full-size bicycles and there hasn't been a micron of movement back there. Good stuff. Get the cap. Good luck!  Signature:) JR |
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