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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / October 2006

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Electrical Systems information

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Steve/Aus - 27 Oct 2006 03:27 GMT
I am setting up a dual electrical system in my home constructed rv trailer
and need some help in how it's done.
The system will consist of an independent power supply, that is 3 large deep
cycle batteries in parallel, feeding a 2000W inverter.
Then there is the battery charger capable of charging all three batteries at
once but they must be disconnected from each other during charging. The
charger will enter float mode when the batteries are fully charged (one at a
time).
Then there is the solar charger and controller who's job it is to maintain
the charge during long periods of not being used.
Then when we have access to external power, we switch over to that,
diconnecting the inverter from the system completely, and charge the
batteries if required.
So far, I have the float (battery) charger, solar panel, solar controller
and inverter. The batteries are not an issue. I will need high amperage
switching and a bunch of other stuff to get this system up and running and
am looking for advice - not necessarily suppliers as I am in Aus where our
mains power is 240v.
TIA
Steve W (in Aus)
RAM³ - 27 Oct 2006 05:08 GMT
>I am setting up a dual electrical system in my home constructed rv trailer
>and need some help in how it's done.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> TIA
> Steve W (in Aus)

A more common approach is to use a transfer switch to shift between power
sources.

As installed, the power mains are the primary supply and, when they fail or
are otherwise disconnected, the backup power source takes over. This backup
source may be a generator, solar, batteries, or wind.

A Transfer Switch is far less expensive than duplicate wiring. <G>
Steve/Aus - 27 Oct 2006 05:53 GMT
>> TIA
>> Steve W (in Aus)
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> A Transfer Switch is far less expensive than duplicate wiring. <G>
Thanks for the info. That was the single piece of information that was
missing (naive I guess)
I never intended to have two systems, I just didn't know how to switch
between the two.
A quick google and I've found a bunch of suppliers in Aus.
Steve W
RichA - 27 Oct 2006 06:15 GMT
>I am setting up a dual electrical system in my home constructed rv trailer
>and need some help in how it's done.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>TIA
>Steve W (in Aus)

Hi,
The best way to go would be a 2000W inverter/charger (Heart Interface,
Xantrex now, is what I have) coupled to an automatic change over switch
for using a generator or when connected to shore power.   When using the
batteries only the inverter section of the inverter/charger would be
supplying power from the batteries for any AC items you might have
connected to it.  When hooked up to shore power through an automatic
change over switch the charger section of the inverter/charger would
charge and maintain your batteries whenever you plugged into AC shore
power.   Good inverter/chargers would supply 3 stage charging keeping
your batteries in top condition.  A good control panel like a Link 1000
should be used in combination with the inverter/charger.  You might want
to look here to see what I'm talking about.  Note that even though these
inverter chargers have a built in transfer switch you still need an
automatic switch if you plan on using a generator, or at the very least
a cable and plug.
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/49/p/1/pt/24/product.asp

The solar panel and charge controller would be hooked up to the
batteries and supply a charge to them when the panel was in sun light.
The charge controller would determine how much of a charge to supply
from the solar panel, a C12 controller is a good choice for panels
supplying less then 12 amps.   The charge controller along with the Link
1000 or other inverter/charger control panel would need to be set up to
prevent overcharging of the batteries.

The above system is basically what is used on most newer RV's that have
large inverter/chargers.

I don't know why you would need to disconnect the batteries from each
other to charge them.  If you are going to use them with a 2000 watt
inverter you will need heavy cables between the batteries and the
inverter.  These cables will be more then capable of handling any
charging currents.  The batteries and inverter should be as close
together as possible.  The shorter the cable runs the better.

There are other ways to do what you want using a plain 2000 watt
inverter a 3 stage battery charger and change over switch, but the basic
setup would be the same.  Batteries supplying power to the inverter, an
AC battery charger hooked up to the batteries to charge them when on
shore power, and a change over switch to take the inverter out of the
system when hooked up to shore power.  The change over switch can be as
simple as a plug as long as you NEVER forget to use it.

Hope this helps some.

Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

Steve/Aus - 27 Oct 2006 07:12 GMT
>>TIA
>>Steve W (in Aus)
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Hope this helps some.

That is extremely helpful Rich. I am starting to understand with clarity
what needs to done. Whether, or what equipment is available in Australia is
something I am yet to fully investigate. One thing is for sure, I can't use
American imported stuff (except some 12v) because of the mains power
difference (240v versus 115v).
The inverter is only meant to run some low power usage stuff (fridge,
LCD-TV, short burst of small microwave etc.) Air con etc. is for mains power
only.
Steve W (in Aus)
Eisboch - 27 Oct 2006 09:22 GMT
> That is extremely helpful Rich. I am starting to understand with clarity
> what needs to done. Whether, or what equipment is available in Australia
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> power only.
> Steve W (in Aus)

Many manufacturers, including Xantrex offer products in 115v, 220v and 240v
versions as well as
50 or 60 Hz.  You should have no problem finding appropriate equipment.

Eisboch
Dean Van Praotl - 28 Oct 2006 00:02 GMT
"Steve/Aus" <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit> apparently said:

> One thing is for sure, I can't use
>American imported stuff (except some 12v) because of the mains power
>difference (240v versus 115v).

Xantrex makes equipment for 230v 50Hz power, which
is the nominal mains standard for Australia IINM.

Even if you don't go with their equipment, there's a lot of
great technical help on their website.

http://www.xantrex.com/support/web/id/996/support1.asp

FWIW, my fifth wheel has four large 12v batteries, a Heart
(now Xantrex) 2000 watt inverter/charger with 3 stage
charging, plus a solar panel and controller.  Other than your
stated requirement to isolate the batteries when charging,
your plan sounds pretty similar to mine.
RichA - 28 Oct 2006 05:33 GMT
>>>TIA
>>>Steve W (in Aus)
>>>
>> Hi,
<bunch snipped>

>> I don't know why you would need to disconnect the batteries from each
>> other to charge them.  If you are going to use them with a 2000 watt
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>only.
>Steve W (in Aus)
Hi,
The Xantrex site has a support section that has the user guides and
installation manuals.  These would show you how they wire up their
inverters and inverter/chargers and even charge controllers and inverter
control panels.   You have to figure out how to wire the inverter so
that when you plug into shore power it is taken out of the system and
the items it was supplying are switched over to shore power.  With most
inverter/chargers designed for use in RV's the inverter/charger senses
when shore power or generator power is available and shuts off it's AC
outputs.  You can see how this is done at the Xantrex site by looking at
the owners manuals.

With just an inverter you would have to figure out how to do this.  It
can be as simple as a plug or you can use change over switches or even
relays.  Here in the US there is a code that has to be followed when
wiring up RV's.  Just remember to follow your AUS electrical code or if
in doubt get someone who knows for sure to help you.

Take care and Happy Campin...
Signature

RichA
"We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart"

Dan Listermann - 27 Oct 2006 13:52 GMT
Another consideration is cutting the converter's charger out of the system
when the inverter is running.  If you don't do this, the batteries will be
trying to charge themselves wasting a lot of power.  In our old Toyota I put
a relay in the line that charged the batteries to cut them out.  In our new
Sunseeker, I hope to interrupt the power to the converter so it is not
powered by the inverter.

Dan

>>I am setting up a dual electrical system in my home constructed rv trailer
>>and need some help in how it's done.
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Hope this helps some.
Steve/Aus - 28 Oct 2006 03:26 GMT
> Another consideration is cutting the converter's charger out of the system
> when the inverter is running.  If you don't do this, the batteries will be
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Dan

I do intend to do this. I can't see any point in creating an unecessary
loop.
BTW do have a micro brewery in your new sunseeker?
Steve W (in Aus)
Jon Griffin - 27 Oct 2006 14:59 GMT
>I am setting up a dual electrical system in my home constructed rv trailer
>and need some help in how it's done.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>charger will enter float mode when the batteries are fully charged (one at a
>time).

Others have mentioned the transfer switch.  On my rig there is no
transfer switch.  The output of my generator goes to an outlet.  I
plug my shorepower cable in to the parks pedestal when available or
into the the genny outlet.  No reason your invertor couldn't have an
outlet that your shorepower cable can plug into.

Jon

Signature

====================================================
                   Jon Griffin
          Yuma,AZ                Olds, AB
              http://www.om-im.org       
====================================================

Will Sill - 27 Oct 2006 15:35 GMT
I see where Jon Griffin <ur@ravingidiots.net> contributed:

>Others have mentioned the transfer switch.  On my rig there is no
>transfer switch.  The output of my generator goes to an outlet.  I
>plug my shorepower cable in to the parks pedestal when available or
>into the the genny outlet.  No reason your invertor couldn't have an
>outlet that your shorepower cable can plug into.

On rv's with a genset (we've had several) I sincerely believe the
'best setup' is to plug the power cord into the gen output
(receptacle) or available mains.   Auto transfer switches strike me as
an expensive and potentially troublesome gadget.

On our present rv there is a "dual system" as follows:  when connected
to shore power, all receptacles are powered and our 1500w
inverter/charger is topping the batteries.  When we unplug from shore
power, a few selected outlets are powered from the inverter (fridge,
MW, etc) leaving the rest dead.  (There is an internal changeover
switch in the inverter/charger).

Our house system has a 200A manual transfer switch upstream of the
main panel.  When public power disappears we throw the transfer switch
and fire a 7kw genset --  we can run anything we like but don't try to
run the dryer and well pump at the same time!

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Steve/Aus - 28 Oct 2006 03:20 GMT
>I see where Jon Griffin <ur@ravingidiots.net> contributed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Will Sill

That is an interesting concept.
Can you explain how *all* receptacles are powered from shore power but only
a select few receptacles are powered when switching over to the inverter. I
like this idea. I agree that auto-transfer switches are expensive and may
not be necessary. Also, the inverter I have is a soft-start so it wouldn't
fire up to full power when the transfer switch throws over and could
potentially cause problems if appliances are left on when the switch throws.
Steve W (in Aus)
Will Sill - 28 Oct 2006 13:46 GMT
I see where "Steve/Aus" <adlab@bigponddotnetdotau.trashthisbit>
contributed:

>That is an interesting concept.
>Can you explain how *all* receptacles are powered from shore power but only
>a select few receptacles are powered when switching over to the inverter. I
>like this idea.

Easy. A few receptacles are hardwired direct from the main panel.  A
few are wired from the inverter output.   The ones wired direct are
dead when shore power is not available; the ones wired from the
inverter are automatically switched when shore power causes the
inverter to change over to charger mode.  

Take Rich A's advice and go to the Xantrex site for a full explanation
- with detailed wiring diagrams - of how the system works.  

Will Sill
The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill

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