Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / December 2006

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Oil changing/engineers rant

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Steve B - 05 Dec 2006 19:51 GMT
I just changed the oil and filter in my 2006 Dodge Cummins engine.

The drain plug is nicely located, and has a female square 3/8" fitting to
insert a socket extension in.  Nice.

The filter was way up in amongst a bunch of stuff.  There was a pipe
touching it from some other device, making it impossible to get a wrench
around.  I carefully bent the pipe a little, it was a light aluminum looking
thing.

Then, to get the wrench in there.  Finally after about four tries, and
snaking the wrench in there first this way and then that, I got the band
around the barrel, I tried unloosening the old filter.  It must have been
put on there by a gorilla using a cheater pipe.  All I could get was about
1/16 a turn on each grab, and that I had to do with my fingertips of both
hands.  One hand was not strong enough to overcome the factory tightening.
After much wrist skinning on the plastic shroud around the wheel where I had
to stick my hand between that and the frame, I turned and turned and turned,
asking myself, "I"m sure it's lefty lucy, righty tighty, right?  Then why
isn't this coming off?"  After a time, it came off.

I do wish that manufacturers would REQUIRE the engineers to perform basic
maintenance on these things so that they know they are putting user
accessible items in very hard to reach places.  What's so hard to understand
about that?

I remember one year of Corvette where you actually had to loosen the motor
mounts and jack up the engine to change some of the spark plugs.

And why can't you and I, guys who would make some common sense changes to
benefit everyone, get a job doing the things that these people are doing so
badly and getting paid for?

Rant off.

Steve
Rick Onanian - 05 Dec 2006 20:23 GMT
> Then, to get the wrench in there.  Finally after about four tries, and
> snaking the wrench in there first this way and then that, I got the band
> around the barrel, I tried unloosening the old filter.  It must have been
> put on there by a gorilla using a cheater pipe.  All I could get was about

Next time, skip the wrench and shove a screwdriver through the filter.

> I do wish that manufacturers would REQUIRE the engineers to perform basic
> maintenance on these things so that they know they are putting user
> accessible items in very hard to reach places.  What's so hard to understand
> about that?

The point is to make it inaccessible to the user so you'll pay a
professional.

> I remember one year of Corvette where you actually had to loosen the motor
> mounts and jack up the engine to change some of the spark plugs.

I had a 1997 Grand Am where you had to completely disconnect at least
one motor mount to change the serpentine belt.
Steve B - 05 Dec 2006 20:51 GMT
> Next time, skip the wrench and shove a screwdriver through the filter.

You can only do that vertically.  There is not enough room to stick one
through horizontally.  I DID think of one of those wrenches like a plumber
uses to reach up under the sink and get to those hard to reach nuts.

Do they make such a thing for oil filters?

I'll look around.

Steve
Steve B - 05 Dec 2006 21:57 GMT
>> Next time, skip the wrench and shove a screwdriver through the filter.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Steve

You can see a lot by observing.

I just took my used oil over to the Cheapo parts store.  While there, I
found a graphite cup shaped device that goes over the base of the filter,
and it has a 3/8" socket hole.  I also found that K&N makes their filters
with a 13/16" nut flash welded on the bottom.  $12, though.

So, I got one of the graphite thingies, and that should be a whole lot
better.

Steve
Chris Cowles - 06 Dec 2006 01:33 GMT
> You can only do that vertically.  There is not enough room to stick one
> through horizontally.  I DID think of one of those wrenches like a
> plumber uses to reach up under the sink and get to those hard to reach
> nuts.
>
> Do they make such a thing for oil filters?

I've seen (in print) a spiral band kinda wrench shaped like the filter. It
fits over end of the filter and, as you turn it to remove the filter, the
band tightens around the filter.
Signature

Chris Cowles
Gainesville, FL

R.J.(Bob) Evans - 07 Dec 2006 00:02 GMT
>You can only do that vertically.  There is not enough room to stick one
>through horizontally.  I DID think of one of those wrenches like a plumber
>uses to reach up under the sink and get to those hard to reach nuts.

I've seen filter wrenches that are like a socket - they fit onto the
bottom of the filter and you use a ratchet with extension to turn
them.  No idea where you would find one.

Signature

R.J.(Bob) Evans
(return address needs alteration to work)

GBinNC - 07 Dec 2006 00:12 GMT
>I've seen filter wrenches that are like a socket - they fit onto the
>bottom of the filter and you use a ratchet with extension to turn
>them.  No idea where you would find one.

Any auto parts store -- maybe even Wal-Mart.

This is a very common DIY tool. I've accumulated several over the years,
in different sizes. They weren't at all hard to find.

Suggestion: Try fitting it onto the correct size oil filter while in the
store. Some of them fit better than others.

GB in NC
Steve Barker LT - 06 Dec 2006 02:40 GMT
And then there was the super coupe tbird where the s-belt went around the
lower radiator hose.  Lovely.

Signature

Steve Barker

>> Then, to get the wrench in there.  Finally after about four tries, and
>> snaking the wrench in there first this way and then that, I got the band
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> I had a 1997 Grand Am where you had to completely disconnect at least one
> motor mount to change the serpentine belt.
Rick Onanian - 06 Dec 2006 02:53 GMT
> And then there was the super coupe tbird where the s-belt went around the
> lower radiator hose.  Lovely.

I almost bought a T-bird instead of that Grand Am. I should have. I
probably would have liked it better. There was a nice black one with a V8...
john - 06 Dec 2006 04:55 GMT
>> And then there was the super coupe tbird where the s-belt went around
>> the lower radiator hose.  Lovely.
>
> I almost bought a T-bird instead of that Grand Am. I should have. I
> probably would have liked it better. There was a nice black one with a
> V8...

Once,I was changing a water pump on a Jap car and found that I could get
it loose, but due to the engine casting, there was a knobby protrusion
keeping the pump from coming off. Probably intended to make one go to
the dealer for water pump changing.  To do the job I was going to have
to pull the radiator, and whatever else was in front and above the water
pump. I had an epiphany. Getting out my $15, Harbor Freight grinder, I
ground 1/4 inch off the stubbyextra metal from the engine block, and the
old pump slid out, and the new one slid right on. I not only completed
the job quickly, I made the engine lighter and the job easier for the
next guy.
R.J.(Bob) Evans - 07 Dec 2006 00:07 GMT
>And then there was the super coupe tbird where the s-belt went around the
>lower radiator hose.  Lovely.

I had my '01 Powersmoke in the Ford shop one time for something -
can't remember what.  When I drove it home I could hear an
intermittent belt squeal from under the hood.  It only seemed to
happen when I pulled hard and then let off the accelerator.  When I
got out I could smell burnt belt.  When I lifted the hood everything
looked OK.  It took a while but I finally figured out that they had
threaded the serpentine belt wrong.  It still amazes me that it
actually more or less fit and worked with the belt threaded wrong.  At
first I thought they had put the wrong length of belt on but after I
started tracing the belt against the little picture on the hood it was
apparent that someone had managed to screw up the belt threading.

I suggested to the garage owner that - while I was loath to support
the work of an engineer - in this case it was probably best to rely on
the engineered solution rather than reinventing it on the fly.

Signature

R.J.(Bob) Evans
(return address needs alteration to work)

Scout - 05 Dec 2006 22:12 GMT
Steve,
Don't put the filter on so tight in the first place.
You should be able to take it off with your bare hands.
Scout

>I just changed the oil and filter in my 2006 Dodge Cummins engine.
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Steve
Steve Barker LT - 06 Dec 2006 02:41 GMT
what HE said.

Signature

Steve Barker

> Steve,
> Don't put the filter on so tight in the first place.
> You should be able to take it off with your bare hands.
> Scout
Steve B - 06 Dec 2006 03:45 GMT
> Steve,
> Don't put the filter on so tight in the first place.
> You should be able to take it off with your bare hands.
> Scout

I didn't put it on tight.  The factory did.  I snug them up, then go 1/8
turn.

Steve
Scout - 06 Dec 2006 07:18 GMT
>> Steve,
>> Don't put the filter on so tight in the first place.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I didn't put it on tight.  The factory did.  I snug them up, then go 1/8
> turn.

You'd think the factory would know better. Or care.
I've played hell over the years getting filters off. I finally learned to be
less of a gorilla putting them on. The instinct of the young and the
inexperienced is to overtighten everything. I wonder what the factory's
excuse is.
Scout
Bob V - 05 Dec 2006 22:16 GMT
:I just changed the oil and filter in my 2006 Dodge Cummins engine.

Are you out of warranty?  If not, you're taking a chance doing your own
servicing.
Steve Barker LT - 06 Dec 2006 02:41 GMT
Has nothing to do with it.

Signature

Steve Barker

> :I just changed the oil and filter in my 2006 Dodge Cummins engine.
>
> Are you out of warranty?  If not, you're taking a chance doing your own
> servicing.
Steve B - 06 Dec 2006 03:46 GMT
> :I just changed the oil and filter in my 2006 Dodge Cummins engine.
>
> Are you out of warranty?  If not, you're taking a chance doing your own
> servicing.

When I can't change my own oil and filter, I'll sell the truck.

Steve
NotMe - 06 Dec 2006 04:06 GMT
"Steve B" <

| > :I just changed the oil and filter in my 2006 Dodge Cummins engine.
| >
| > Are you out of warranty?  If not, you're taking a chance doing your own
| > servicing.
|
| When I can't change my own oil and filter, I'll sell the truck.

That's why god provided grand kids.

Only draw back is I have to feed'um before and after they work on my van.
( I had no idea a 16 y.o can do that much damage at Mickey D's)
Dapper Dave - 06 Dec 2006 14:18 GMT
>"Bob V" <transition@yahoo.com> wrote:

>:I just changed the oil and filter in my 2006 Dodge Cummins engine.
>
>Are you out of warranty?  If not, you're taking a chance doing your own
>servicing.

I just love Internet Facts, don't you?

Signature

DD

Mark Jones - 06 Dec 2006 01:01 GMT
> I just changed the oil and filter in my 2006 Dodge Cummins engine.

Finally after about four tries, and
> snaking the wrench in there first this way and then that, I got the
> band around the barrel, I tried unloosening the old filter.

Try getting one of the filter tools that slides onto the bottom
of the filter and then you use a ratchet with an extension
and socket to turn this tool. No band involved. The tool
slides onto the groves that are in the bottom of the filter.

I believe that they are called an "end cap oil filter wrench".
Steve Barker LT - 06 Dec 2006 02:39 GMT
If you don't overtighten it, you won't need a wrench.  I've been servicing 4
dodges since new in 97 and haven't used a wrench except to get the factory
one off.

Signature

Steve Barker

> And why can't you and I, guys who would make some common sense changes to
> benefit everyone, get a job doing the things that these people are doing
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Steve
Steve B - 06 Dec 2006 03:47 GMT
> If you don't overtighten it, you won't need a wrench.  I've been servicing
> 4 dodges since new in 97 and haven't used a wrench except to get the
> factory one off.

Like I did today.  I know when I change it the next time, I will be able to
easily take it off.  They must put those filters on there before they put
the engine in the frame.

Steve
Rich256 - 06 Dec 2006 15:31 GMT
>> If you don't overtighten it, you won't need a wrench.  I've been servicing
>> 4 dodges since new in 97 and haven't used a wrench except to get the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Steve

Is the wrench you use the type you use with socket wrench?  Something
like this one.  I had to search for picture.

http://tinyurl.com/y66x38

I have cheaper versions that are not adjustable.
Steve B - 06 Dec 2006 16:59 GMT
>>> If you don't overtighten it, you won't need a wrench.  I've been
>>> servicing 4 dodges since new in 97 and haven't used a wrench except to
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I have cheaper versions that are not adjustable.

Nah, it looks like a black plastic bowl with twelve sides, and a 3/8" socket
hole in the bottom.  About $6.

Steve
Rich256 - 06 Dec 2006 18:59 GMT
>>>> If you don't overtighten it, you won't need a wrench.  I've been
>>>> servicing 4 dodges since new in 97 and haven't used a wrench except to
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Steve

Yeah, I know the one.  Not good.  The ones like I showed work very well.
 With a long extension on a ratchet wrench you can reach up into a
pretty tight hole.

The one I got didn't even cost $6 (but that was a long time ago).  Had
to get two of them for two different size filters.

Looks more like this one.  Works really well because you can slide it
right up to the base of the filter and still have a lot of leverage.

http://tinyurl.com/trwam

Or

http://tinyurl.com/y8d3vx

in the $8-$9 range

Gee, Amazon.com has 283 listed oil filter wrenches!  Looks like a lot
are duplicates.
Steve B - 06 Dec 2006 19:28 GMT
>>>>> If you don't overtighten it, you won't need a wrench.  I've been
>>>>> servicing 4 dodges since new in 97 and haven't used a wrench except to
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Gee, Amazon.com has 283 listed oil filter wrenches!  Looks like a lot are
> duplicates.

It'll be 7500 miles before I get to test this one.  And with that pipe right
next to the filter, I don't know yet if this device will even fit past the
pipe.

But since I didn't twist this filter on with the enthusiasm the factory
worker did, I imagine I won't have that much trouble getting this one off.

FWIW, I do like that band type the best, and see one in my future.  :-)

Steve
Matt Colie - 07 Dec 2006 22:08 GMT
Steve,

They do.  And the engine is usually out in the middle of a well lite
hanger size building.

I haven't had time yet to read this whole thread, but I am sure that I
will have something to add.

Matt Colie

>>If you don't overtighten it, you won't need a wrench.  I've been servicing
>>4 dodges since new in 97 and haven't used a wrench except to get the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Steve
Jim Redelfs - 06 Dec 2006 04:02 GMT
> I do wish that manufacturers would REQUIRE the engineers to perform basic
> maintenance on these things so that they know they are putting user
> accessible items in very hard to reach places.  What's so hard to understand
> about that?

Your definition of "user accessible" is probably different than those that
make money doing what you described so well.

> I remember one year of Corvette where you actually had to loosen the motor
> mounts and jack up the engine to change some of the spark plugs.

I recall it was the 1977 Chevrolet Monza with the optional, shoe-horned-in,
V8.  The procedure was to replace ONE spark plug.  Of course, the tool
industry came up with a special tool for accessing that plug, I'm sure.

> And why can't you and I, guys who would make some common sense changes to
> benefit everyone, get a job doing the things that these people are doing so
> badly and getting paid for?

I wonder how much of that particular procedure involves Cummins engineering
and how much Dodge.  Nice article.
Signature

           :)
JR

RAM³ - 06 Dec 2006 09:36 GMT
>> I do wish that manufacturers would REQUIRE the engineers to perform
>> basic maintenance on these things so that they know they are putting
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> I wonder how much of that particular procedure involves Cummins
> engineering and how much Dodge.  Nice article.

IIRC, the last Monza was built in '69 - after which GM dropped the entire
Corvair line. <G>

Are you sure that V8 wasn't in a Malibu?
Jim Redelfs - 06 Dec 2006 13:33 GMT
> IIRC, the last Monza was built in '69 - after which GM dropped the entire
> Corvair line. <G>

Chevy resurrected the Monza model name for a couple/three years in the
mid-70s.  It was a model based (VERY loosely) on the Vega.
Signature

           :)
JR

Frank Tabor - 06 Dec 2006 15:11 GMT
>>> I do wish that manufacturers would REQUIRE the engineers to perform
>>> basic maintenance on these things so that they know they are putting
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Are you sure that V8 wasn't in a Malibu?

Monza was reincarnated in a small body FE RWD sprty car.  Rack and Pinion
steering, 4 speed and a pretty zippy 6 banger in it.  I wish I could
remember the years.  Google will tell you.

Signature

Frank Tabor

Steve Barker LT - 06 Dec 2006 15:17 GMT
here's a pic of a '77.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2124289

Signature

Steve Barker

>>> I do wish that manufacturers would REQUIRE the engineers to perform
>>> basic maintenance on these things so that they know they are putting
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Are you sure that V8 wasn't in a Malibu?
R.J.(Bob) Evans - 07 Dec 2006 00:01 GMT
>I remember one year of Corvette where you actually had to loosen the motor
>mounts and jack up the engine to change some of the spark plugs.

I have a good friend who had a Maxima years ago.  He used to go on and
on and on and on about what a superior vehicle it was and how
wonderfully engineered it was.  That continued until the time I saw
him taking the plate off the muffler so that he could change the oil
filter.  After that he never got very far with his superior
engineering speech.

Signature

R.J.(Bob) Evans
(return address needs alteration to work)

Matt Colie - 07 Dec 2006 22:46 GMT
Steve,

Now that the well based rant has quieted down,  and I have time to
write, I will let you in on some inside Detroit Engineering Standards.

In the case of your truck, Chrysler (now DCX) buys the engine from
Cummins (I bet you knew that) and then they do there best to fit it in a
vehicle.  Changes cost money.  As a supplier (I was for years) to the
big three, you can expect to get beat up for .01$us on a single part.
If the part could be five times better for 2c, but the cheaper passes
the validation testing (it probably won't cause warrantee issues) - They
Ain't Blowin' that extra money.....

Here's the other secret - true of all vehicle manfacturing everywhere.
The parts are designed in different places - sometimes even different
countries.  They may get some engine people to look at the whole thing
before they commit to build it, but that does not always happen.

Then there are the things like the vehicle where management thinks there
is a marketing opportunity if they can sell a version with a larger
engine.  Sometimes the vehicle people do it, and sometimes the work is
farmed out to an outside design group that will fit the required parts
together, but may have very limited responsibility for the final product.

There are in some companies, people in the engine group that watch
maintainability and scream bloody-murder, stamp feet and sometimes throw
things to get their way.  This is why there are external timing marks on
some modern engines.  You can't do anything with them, there is no
distributer to twist, there are no plug wires to attach a timing light,
but there are marks.

Oh- by the by - Filters are installed too tight at most engine plants.
This reduces filter leakage warrantee and who cares?  The dealer is
supposed to do the first oil change (except on anything I have owned or
leased).

Matt

> I just changed the oil and filter in my 2006 Dodge Cummins engine.
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Steve
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.