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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / December 2006Connect Generator to house ??
Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp House Panel? I was considering using a Transfer switch such as the Reliance TWB2005DR, which allows up to 50 amp/12.5kW Generator input and a max utility input of 200 amps. MY BIGGEST QUESTION, IS HOW DO I HANDLE THE FACT THAT I ONLY HAVE 110 VOLT POWER? I would install a seperate power inlet box to plug in my generator and a meter in line, and limit my useage to only 110 volt circuits within the house, but how to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions welcomed. THANKS. > Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer > Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions > welcomed. THANKS. Pull the meter. Unplug the stove, HWH, Dryer, other 220s. Jump the positive bars to each other. Connect positive 110v to now connected positive bars, and negative to the negative bar. > Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer > Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions > welcomed. THANKS. I don't have the answer to your question but just a comment about what "Dude" said, do not under any circumstances consider pulling your electrical meter. That can result in serious injury. Not only that, the electric company will really be pissed when they have to come out a reseal it. >>>I don't have the answer to your question but just a comment about what > "Dude" said, do not under any circumstances consider pulling your > electrical meter. That can result in serious injury. Not only that, > the electric company will really be pissed when they have to come out > a reseal it.<<< I agree. Pull the main breakers in you panel box, not the meter. Then shut off all the 220 volt breakers. If you have room in the panel box, install another 220 breaker. If you don't have room for another breaker, just remove any 220 breaker and move it away so it won't touch anything. Hook the generator "hot' wire to one side of the breaker and install a jumper wire from that side of the breaker to the other side. Hook up your ground and neutral wires and fire up the generator. When power is restored, remove the breaker, the neutral and ground wires and store them for the next time. Put the main breaker back in and you are done. (except for putting the panel cover back on)  SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) I see where "Nate" <maplemanvt@pivot.net> contributed: >Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer >Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions >welcomed. THANKS. Good for you to realize you need a transfer switch. We have a 200A Ronk manual transfer switch installed between the mater and the main panel, but we also have a 240v genset. But if you have to ask how you use a 120v genset, you should NOT be doing this work yourself. There are some very nice small switches that need to be wired into selected circuits, but you need electrical experience wo install them. IMO the best possible no-cost way to use a 120v gen for emergencies is forget wiring to the panel and to run heavy duty extension cords direct to essential appliances, and don't even think about tricks with breakers and backfeeding. Will Sill Don't worry about what people think, they don't do it very often. > the best possible no-cost way to use > a 120v gen for emergencies is forget wiring to the panel and to run > heavy duty extension cords direct to essential appliances, and don't > even think about tricks with breakers and backfeeding. Thank-you. I am appalled at the recommendations for "hinking" a generator output to a home's mains without a properly installed transfer switch. As one that has worked (and still works) many storms - up in the air on poles - it is no wonder we are required to adhere to so many safety rules, including checking suspension strand and telephone cable for high voltages, etc. Install a transfer switch or, fer pete's sake, just run an extension cord or two! Sheesh! Signature:) JR Climb poles and dig holes Have staplegun, will travel > > the best possible no-cost way to use > > a 120v gen for emergencies is forget wiring to the panel and to run [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Climb poles and dig holes > Have staplegun, will travel You adhere to "...so many safety rules..." to save your butt in case something IS wrong, covering the contingencies. Same as if you're driving your car, you have to expect the idiot in the car ahead and behind to do anything that car can physically possibly do, and a few things you might not think it can do. If you think that because NOBODY was "backfeeding" or some such then you wouldn't have to adhere to the safety guidelines, you'd be fried chicken in no time. I've been on a pole, too. >>>the best possible no-cost way to use >>>a 120v gen for emergencies is forget wiring to the panel and to run [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>Climb poles and dig holes >>Have staplegun, will travel > I am appalled at the recommendations for "hinking" a generator output to a > home's mains without a properly installed transfer switch. While in Home Depot yesterday, I saw a generator that comes with a "Heavy duty generator cord set", which looks like a widowmaker cord to me. It appears to be just a heavy cord with two male plugs on the end (spaced to fit a standard outlet). It's a Briggs & Stratton 5,500 watt unit (I thought Briggs only made engines, but the whole unit is branded Briggs), Home Depot item # 553330 (just looked it up on their website). I doubt their lawyers are dumb enough to expose them to the liability of selling a factory-made hack which may be illegal in some places, and which would be so obviously dangerous. I wonder how they're dealing with it... |I see where "Nate" <maplemanvt@pivot.net> contributed: | [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] | heavy duty extension cords direct to essential appliances, and don't | even think about tricks with breakers and backfeeding. If the possibility of killing yourself or someone else does not deter you: If you DO manage to back feed to the mains the power company will pull your service and you'll play hell and a LOT of money getting service reestablished. If manage to avoid killing someone you may still burn down the house and the insurance company will likely refuse to pay any claims. > I see where "Nate" <maplemanvt@pivot.net> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Don't worry about what people think, they don't do > it very often. I agree with you. The guy asked how to do it, and I told him. I would only pull the meter on the long term emergency. I have plenty of #12 extention cord for my gen and would use them first, only for the fridge, lighting and microwave. > I see where "Nate" <maplemanvt@pivot.net> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Don't worry about what people think, they don't do > it very often. I've got to agree with Will on this one. Another consideration is the power rating of your genset. In all liklihood it will be capable of powering a relatively limited number of essential items. I'd suggest that you itemize the things you feel are essential. List the wattage rating of each. Then make a plan. For example if you have two refrigerators and a freezer you may find that you can only power one of them at a time if you also want to use power for some lighting or other things. You can get by for a very long time powering refrigerators or freezers for only a few hours per day (if the doors remain closed). The things we are discussing can be powered by extension cord(s) and doing so will save you a great deal of money. However, if you will need to provide power to a furnace or boiler in order to get some heat in your house, you will need the services of an electrician to install the necessary switch. Even this will be much simpler that a full blown transfer switch. Ed MacNeil, Ancient Aviator North Hampton, New Hamster "Edwin MacNeil" | I've got to agree with Will on this one. Another consideration is the | power rating of your genset. In all liklihood it will be capable of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] | necessary switch. Even this will be much simpler that a full blown | transfer switch. As to the heater fans and such. More than a few HVAC systems have the fan motors run on 220/240 VAC. > Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer > Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions > welcomed. THANKS. We had this installed by the power company. Actually they had a subcontractor do the work. With only 110 volts, you have to turn off your 220 breakers. Also you have know your generators limitations. http://www.dom.com/products/generators/hub.jsp http://www.electromn.com/res/html/lgm.htm >Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer >Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions >welcomed. THANKS. Hi, This is one of those if you have to ask questions you are better off finding someone locally who is qualified to do the job. Wiring it wrong can be dangerous to you and your family and to anyone working on the power lines outside your home. Just wiring it can be dangerous if you don't know what you are doing and how to disconnect the main power properly. Your local electric company will most likely be happy to either install it or give you names of folks they recommend, since their line men's safety could depend on how it is installed. Depending upon where you are at you may need an electrical permit or inspection by your local building/electrical inspector too. It should be installed in accordance with the NEC. Take care and Happy Campin... SignatureRichA "We Get Too Soon Olde and Too Late Smart" Nate, You neglected to include any reason you might try to do this. If it is an life or death emergency, there are dangerous thinks that might be done. These things are dangerous and can result in harm or death if mishandled. Other wise, move into the MH for the time being - you live there for a couple of weeks any way - Right? You know how to boonie - right? him again > Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer > Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions > welcomed. THANKS. Whatever! I have been doing this thing you're calling "backfeeding" with no problems. I shut off the main power breaker on the pole to my house feeder box and feed in from an outlet that I have installed with some heavy wiring. If you're too stupid to shut off your main power breaker, then you're beyond help. > Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer > Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions > welcomed. THANKS. "Tom" | Whatever! I have been doing this thing you're calling "backfeeding" | with no problems. | I shut off the main power breaker on the pole to my house feeder box and | feed in from an outlet that I have installed with some heavy wiring. | If you're too stupid to shut off your main power breaker, then | you're beyond help. Works fine up-until you forget or someone else does something beyond your control/knowledge. Regardless how it happens you will bear the responsibility. >>>If you're too stupid to shut off your main power breaker, then you're >>>beyond help.<<< I have re-thought my suggestion of powering the panel box and decided Will's suggestion is far better. (just run a heavy duty extension cord from the generator to whatever needs power) Everyone here might understand my suggestion but someone else could read it, do it wrong and kill someone. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) I see where "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jerryd@rochester.rr.com> contributed: >I have re-thought my suggestion of powering the panel box and decided Will's >suggestion is far better. >(just run a heavy duty extension cord from the generator to whatever needs >power) >Everyone here might understand my suggestion but someone else could read it, >do it wrong and kill someone. Good to know SOMEONE was helped by my suggestion.. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill I see where Tom <twright64@sswavecable.com> contributed: >Whatever! I have been doing this thing you're calling "backfeeding" >with no problems. >I shut off the main power breaker on the pole to my house feeder box and >feed in from an outlet that I have installed with some heavy wiring. >If you're too stupid to shut off your main power breaker, then >you're beyond help. The problem with your obstinate attitude is that while most normal people wouldn't _deliberately_ try to murder the neighbor's kid or a careless lineman by throwing the breaker back on while the generator is still running -- emergency situations very often induce people to do moronic things. I spent a lot of time in upstate NY during the aftermath of the great '98 ice storm, helping people to cope with no power, A ridiculous number of otherwise bright people had NO CLUE about the consequence of double-male cords and similar lashups. There are SAFE ways of powering essential stuff - and there are risky ways. You seem to think the risky ways are ok. They're not - they're dangerous and illegal. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill Wanna show me a code that says I have to have a transfer switch for a PORTABLE generator? The Nat. Elec. Code says one is required for a PERMANENTLY installed generator, but seems to be quiet about a portable one. Sure would be nice to know EVERYTHING like ole Will Sill does. If I have my generator hooked up the way I do, the main power breaker LOCKED out, nobody's gonna mess with it but me (my wife will hardly even touch an extension cord for a lamp), HOW am I gonna harm anyone. I'd be willing to bet that over 3/4 of people running portable emergency generators hook up through an outlet with a double-male cord. We just came through a MAJOR outage here in the Puget Sound area and 5 of 6 guys I've talked to are doing it that way. If a lineman comes along and messes with a downed wire without ascertaining positively that it's dead, that should help clean up the overall gene pool a bit. Sorry, but I've worked it and NEVER touched a line without verifying PERSONALLY that it was dead - and I'm still alive. Granted, some idiot might not have sense enough to know how to turn off the main breaker and lock it out, but hopefully he'll get across the line, too, and help with the gene pool cleaning. > I see where Tom <twright64@sswavecable.com> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Will Sill > The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill am I gonna harm anyone. > I'd be willing to bet that over 3/4 of people running portable > emergency generators hook up through an outlet with a double-male > cord. I am one of the 3/4. I have a 220 outlet in my garage for use with an aircompressor or welder. When my elec. has gone out for more than a couple hours, I shut off my main 200amp breaker in the house and plug my generator into the 220 box in the garage. It feeds the whole house and I can use only what I want to use, atho I do conserve. I have a 5500 watt generator and it will run the furnace motor ( I have gas heat), refrigerator and any other needed items without problems. Hank <~~~thinks circumstances dictate procedures Exactly the same thing my neighbor does though his generator is pretty powerful. He made a interconnect cable out of 6-3 wire with a "stove" 60 amp rated plug on each end. He too is a welder and I think he uses the generator to run an arc welder when repairing farm equipment in the field so to speak. He also throws a few breakers (stove, dryer, air conditioners, lesser important circuits ) to keep the draw down on the generator. In my case I made up 2 heavy extension cords out of 10-3. One goes to the furnace (less that 15 amps) and a few lights from there on standard outdoor extension cords. The other goes to the fridge and freezer as well as a few lights down that end of the house. Isolation is never a question as the devices are unplugged from the house circuits to be plugged into the generator circuit. I can then leave the overhead light switches in the "on" position and when the power gets restored I will know it. On Dec 23, 12:26pm, Tom <twrigh...@sswavecable.com> wrote: am I gonna harm anyone. > I'd be willing to bet that over 3/4 of people running portable > emergency generators hook up through an outlet with a double-male > cord. I am one of the 3/4. I have a 220 outlet in my garage for use with an aircompressor or welder. When my elec. has gone out for more than a couple hours, I shut off my main 200amp breaker in the house and plug my generator into the 220 box in the garage. It feeds the whole house and I can use only what I want to use, atho I do conserve. I have a 5500 watt generator and it will run the furnace motor ( I have gas heat), refrigerator and any other needed items without problems. Hank <~~~thinks circumstances dictate procedures In article <1166896725.613136.130740@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com>, "Hustlin' Hank" <ninebal310@aol.com> wrote: > Hank <~~~thinks circumstances dictate procedures Hank <=-probably does everything else right but shortcuts when it comes to this aspect of safety and the law. Signature:) JR > In article <1166896725.613136.130...@73g2000cwn.googlegroups.com>, > "Hustlin' Hank" <ninebal...@aol.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > :) > JR Hi JR, I know what you are saying and it may be true for most people, but I know how my 3 yr old house is wired. I understand your concern for safety. Belive it or not, I am safety conscious too. First, anything is possible. I have witnessed a lineman getting his hand blown apart. I have seen 2 people get killed installing a CB antenna. So, I am very safety conscious. Second, even with an automatic transfer switch, sh.t can happen, especially if they aren't maintained properly. Third, my generator has 2-20 amp breakers (one on each leg). IF, for some reason there was a back-feed error, I doubt that my generator would produce enough electricity to the neighborhood houses without tripping a breaker on the generator. Fourth, there are strict safety measures and procedures in place by the electric company that should insure the linemen aren't harmed. Also, an experienced lineman uses gloves (which are tested regually)and tools that won't conduct electricity. But again, sh.t can still happen. Merr Xmas Hank I see where "Hustlin' Hank" <ninebal310@aol.com> rationalized a half-a.s approach to the OP's question: > I know what you are saying and it may be true for most people, but >I know how my 3 yr old house is wired. I understand your concern for [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >Also, an experienced lineman uses gloves (which are tested regually)and >tools that won't conduct electricity. But again, sh.t can still happen. Let's review: The OP was smart enough to realize he ought to have a transfer switch, but made it perfectly clear he did NOT have the expertise to connect his MH gen into a panel. As a Safety Engineer, I NEVER advised someone who didn't understand even the basics (the OP admitted as much) to work on things that could kill them. IMO it is moronic to expound on theories of home power distribution systems to answer the OP's concern. Doing so falsely implies is OK for him to patch together some half-assed lashup. Yes, it is true that double male cords don't necessarily kill every innocent child in the neighborhood - or every moron who makes up one. You CAN lash up some dangerous arrangement (heaven knows enough have been described!) and probably won't kill anyone or get arrested. If that's good enough for you, fine - but please DON'T encourage others to take unnecessary chances. The most completely idiot-proof setup is similar to many motorhome generator connections: the shore power plug is inserted in the CG power receptacle _OR_ the generator output receptacle. Obviously no backfeeding or cross-connection is possible with that system. In your home, you can't possibly backfeed the power grid if you just use extension cords from the MH to run your fridge, etc. Transfer switches are _almost_ as idiot proof, and offer much more convenience - at a major cost. Our 200a manual switch allows us to run anything in the home - full-automatic setups are even more convenient and satisfy all safety codes. I have a question for all you 'experts' - would you call your mother in a distant State and tell her how to wire her 120v motorhome generator into her house panel? Or would ya just tell her where to get some extension cords? Finally, specifically for Hank - you said: :IF, for some reason there was a back-feed error, I doubt that my generator :would produce enough electricity to the neighborhood houses . . . That's not the issue, Hank - your power is probably off because a wire is down. Should that wire be down upstream of your nearest transformer, it won't power the neighbor's house but can put 7,200 volts into the neighbor's cute little girl, with or without kitten. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > As a Safety Engineer, I NEVER advised someone who didn't understand > even the basics (the OP admitted as much) to work on things that could [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Will Sill If you would go to a Home Depot or Lowes or other places that sell small generators, you will see that the manufacturerers of these generators also include wires and instructions for supplying your house with electricity. I doubt they would do so if they thought someone would get killed. I am not talking 20kw gensets. I am talking 5500w and less. I doubt teh OP has a 20kw genset. Like I said earlier, anything is possible. All the safety engineers and techs didn't keep one of the space shuttles from blowing up and killing a few did it? Maybe it is the area of the country, but most of us people who live in my area and have small gensets will connect them to their house. That is why they bought them. Hank > If you would go to a Home Depot or Lowes or other places that sell > small generators, you will see that the manufacturerers of these [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > less. I doubt teh OP has a 20kw genset. Like I said earlier, anything > is possible. http://groups.google.com/group/alt.rv/msg/4dc1b8bc25c5591c Home Depot item # 553330 Briggs & Stratton 5,500 watt generator comes with a "Heavy duty generator cord set", which looked like a widowmaker cord to me when I saw it in the store. I don't know what safety equipment it has. > I have seen 2 people get killed installing a CB antenna. How? > Second, even with an automatic transfer switch, sh.t can happen, > especially if they aren't maintained properly. What kind of maintenance? My parents recently bought a house with an automatic transfer switch (and an automatically-starting generator). > What kind of maintenance? My parents recently bought a house with an > automatic transfer switch (and an automatically-starting generator).<<< I am sure there is a sticker on the equipment that has the installers name on it. Call them and have them do a maintenence/safety check on the equitment. They can also show your father and mother anything they need to know about the system. (like how to shut it off) SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) >> Second, even with an automatic transfer switch, sh.t can happen, >> especially if they aren't maintained properly. >What kind of maintenance? My parents recently bought a house with an >automatic transfer switch (and an automatically-starting generator). At my home, I have a 20kw Onan automatic standby genset with an automatic transfer switch. Believe me, I'm not opening that sucker (the transfer switch, I mean) to do ANY kind of maintenance on it. Nor is any required, according to the documentation that came with it. GB in NC >>What kind of maintenance? My parents recently bought a house with an >>automatic transfer switch (and an automatically-starting generator). I should have also added the obvious, if this hasn't already been done: Turn off the main power. If the generator comes on within a few seconds and within a few more seconds provides power to the house, assume it's working properly. In fact, they ought to exercise it under load every now and then anyway, in addition to the (I assume) ten-minute weekly session it gives itself. That weekly exercise -- on mine, anyway -- is just for the engine. It doesn't provide power to the house, so the generator itself isn't involved. Every month or two -- just like with my RV generator -- I give it a hard workout. I throw the main power switch off to see if the generator starts like it's supposed to and takes over the power. Then I turn on practically everything in the house, including both heat pumps, and let it run for a couple of hours. I usually try to do this when I've got a bunch of laundry to do (I'm the resident laundrymeister). That way the well pump and the electric clothes dryer get into the act as well. Even better when we're also watering the garden, using the oven, etc. I like the sound of a home standby generator doing its stuff.... GB in NC > In fact, they ought to exercise it under load every now and then anyway, > in addition to the (I assume) ten-minute weekly session it gives itself. At Qwest (and probably everywhere else) there is a job title of [power technician] whose job is to maintain and, monthly, test Central Office standby power systems. They fire-up the generator to ensure that it switches automatically then let it run, under load, for an hour or two. A few years ago, a C.O. Technician had to intentionally take the switch off-line due to a "double-whammy": Shore power failed, the generator promptly fired-up, then it's main bearing assembly "died". The C.O. ran on the battery for several hours, with no grid restoration in "sight". Rather than run the battery down to -0-, the tech shut down the switch. That's a first for my career in this area. As Hank said, sh*t can still happen. > Every month or two -- just like with my RV generator -- I give it a hard > workout. I throw the main power switch off to see if the generator [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > clothes dryer get into the act as well. Even better when we're also > watering the garden, using the oven, etc. That's awesome! What are the specs for your plant? Signature:) JR >As Hank said, sh*t can still happen. Agreed. And does. >That's awesome! What are the specs for your plant? http://www.onan.com/onan/homestandbygenerators/RS/generatorProductDetail.jsp?prd id=prod60011 Spec sheet is clickable from there. I just noticed they've changed it a bit. The housing on mine doesn't have the extra part hanging off the end. That is, it's perfectly rectangular. This is probably because they've changed the engine. (Mine was installed almost three years ago.) Mine has a "Ford 2.5-liter, 4-cyl industrial engine." The current model uses a 3-liter GM engine. Mine has the engine block pre-heater (thermostatically controlled) and battery maintainer. It's always ready to go. (I have a 1000-gallon propane tank.) It really isn't much louder than a residential air conditioning unit. And as I've said here before, the sound of a home generator running during a power outage is a *very* sweet sound to me. I have no neighbors who could hear it anyway. When we get into the new house we won't be able to hear it at all, because it's on the "other" side of the carriagehouse from there. The real fun is going to be finding out how much of *both* houses it can run at once. There's a 200-amp transfer switch for the carriagehouse, but the big house will have to have 400 amps. I'm getting a rebuilt "manual" transfer switch -- the Onan price for a 400-amp one is out of sight, and besides, I don't need to buy all the electronics again. The electrical contractor is going to wire it up as a "slave" unit to the Onan transfer switch so that the Onan controls everything, first taking over the 200-amp switch and then throwing power to the 400-amp switch a couple of seconds later via solenoid. (Yes, he knows what he's doing.) The big house will have three heat pumps (there are two over here -- one for the garage/workshop areas and one for the upstairs living quarters, where I am as we speak). But water heat is gas over there, as it is here. And all the ovens are electrical, but the cooktops are gas. And when we get a new (or another) dryer it will be gas -- we already have the lines in place in both houses. We really aren't very big users of electricity. We have a woodstove for primary heat here and will also have one over there. I can't imagine any time when I will EVER have all five heat pumps running at once, summer or winter. Three, maybe, but more likely two -- if that many. We haven't turned on either of these over here but once so far this season, and that was to heat the garage (the ground level) on a really cold day because we were going to be working in there most of the day. Up here in the living area we sometimes have to open a skylight for a few minutes because the woodstove works so well <g>. (We call that an "Appalachian thermostat" because when we lived in the mountains it was typical of the local folks that they would burn their woodstoves like crazy and then open various doors and windows to regulate the temperature. And I mean in the coldest of winter too.) In temperate weather (which in this part of NC is 8 months or so) we open the house and use a whole-house fan for ventilation. There's one going into the new house too. We wouldn't have a house without one, as much as we like using fresh air when possible. Even so, the heat pumps are set for random delay in coming back on when power goes off and then comes back on. They won't try to start at the same time, even if all of them were on. Still, I'm curious to see how much we can run at once. Everything will be connected in both houses (no "selected" circuits), but obviously we'll think about what to turn on if we're running on generator. I'll let you know <g>. GB in NC > > I have seen 2 people get killed installing a CB antenna. How? They were on top of a mobile home and the antenna touched the overhead power lines. > > Second, even with an automatic transfer switch, sh.t can happen, > > especially if they aren't maintained properly. What kind of maintenance? My parents recently bought a house with an > automatic transfer switch (and an automatically-starting generator). Mostly monthly starting, oil changes and making sure the contacts are clean and the springs aren't broke and the switch is working correctly on transfer. Hank <~~~runs with sissors In article <1166981463.638757.304060@a3g2000cwd.googlegroups.com>, "Hustlin' Hank" <ninebal310@aol.com> wrote: > my generator has 2-20 amp breakers (one on each leg). IF, > for some reason there was a back-feed error, I doubt that my generator > would produce enough electricity to the neighborhood houses without > tripping a breaker on the generator. I know what you mean and would find it interesting to observe such a test. I expect that all but the most gigantic of gensets would trip and/or stall in the event of a backfeed. Heck, that in itself might be a good (if UNreliable) safety "feature". > an experienced lineman uses gloves (which are tested regually)and > tools that won't conduct electricity. Mine are rated to 20kv while the local power techs' are rated to 35kv. > sh.t can still happen. Agreed. ...and it usually does when LEAST expected. > Merr Xmas Thank-you, Hank. Merry Christmas to you and everyone else. I hope Santa brings you a transfer switch. [ducking and running] Signature<VGB> JR I am so pleased to finally find the "Fountain of ALL Knowledge". Tell your story to the wife of the lineman you killed by your knowing recklessness. >Wanna show me a code that says I have to have a transfer switch >for a PORTABLE generator? The Nat. Elec. Code says one is required [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> Will Sill >> The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill Listen up, a.shole, just because some people are idiots doesn't mean everybody is stupid. If I thought for an instant I would cause somebady any harm I'd chuck the whole freakin' generator, power cord , the works, on the trash heap RIGHT NOW! > I am so pleased to finally find the "Fountain of ALL Knowledge". Tell > your story to the wife of the lineman you killed by your knowing [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >>>Will Sill >>>The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > just because some people are idiots doesn't mean everybody is stupid. True. So why don't you change sides and do it right? > If I thought for an instant I would cause somebady any harm I'd chuck > the whole freakin' generator, power cord, the works, on the trash heap > RIGHT NOW! It would be cheaper to keep the stuff and use it properly. SignatureJR Well, this a.shole believes that is EXACTLY what you should do. People who are uninformed as to potential dangers are negligent. You, knowing of the dangers are CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT. Dean >Listen up, a.shole, just because some people are idiots doesn't mean >everybody is stupid. If I thought for an instant I would cause [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> your story to the wife of the lineman you killed by your knowing >> recklessness. > Wanna show me a code that says I have to have a transfer switch > for a PORTABLE generator? The Nat. Elec. Code says one is required > for a PERMANENTLY installed generator, but seems to be quiet about a > portable one. You're kidding, right? I won't cite chapter and verse, but a temporary power source MUST be connected through a "transfer switch" to be legal. All the remote equipment sites I visit that do NOT have a permanently installed generator are so equipped. In the event of a protracted outage, a trailer-mounted genset is towed to the site. You can be conscientious, smart and safe but it doesn't change the fact that LEGALLY, you are required BY LAW (code) to use a properly-installed transfer switch when using a standby power system - portable or permanently installed. > Sure would be nice to know EVERYTHING like ole Will Sill does. Yes, it would. Work on that, will ya? Sheesh! Signature<sigh> JR It depends on where you live. Check locally with the building dept and electrical company. Pulling the meter is never an option and can carry heavy fines. Most electrical utility companies are very sensitive about such things. I had a neighbor who just ran romex wire under the house to another set of outlets in places like near the TC, in the kitchen, etc. These run to a junction box completely separate from the house wiring. When the electricity goes off he just plugs his generator into the junction box and moves all the necessary plugs from the standard well outlets to the generator outlets. makes it easy to control the load as well that way. I just keep a few heavy duty extension cords around. >Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer >Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions >welcomed. THANKS. From Randy & Val 1990 30' Rexhal Airex > It depends on where you live. Check locally with the building dept and > electrical company. Pulling the meter is never an option and can carry > heavy fines. Most electrical utility companies are very sensitive > about such things. snipped In an emergency situation where the power is going to be off for several days/weeks, pulling the meter is the SAFEST way to avoid back feed to power lines. All that needs to be done then is to protect the "innards" from accidental touching or weather. If power and phone lines are out, there may not be any way to let authorities know. I'm certain the power company would rather have you pull the meter than back feed the lines. With all the generators that have been sold in the past few years, the potential for someone doing something stupid is high. maybe it would be better for authorities to make a big deal about pulling the meter when hooking the genset into house lines. Running around like Chicken Little does nothing to protect the lineman from death. Extension cords do make the most sense from a safety standpoint but if the outage is going to be long term, then there are better alternatives. Not everyone is going to invest in a transfer switch and no one can "force" them to. I'm for protecting the lineman and homeowners upstream of the transformer from injury or death. Pulling the meter serves that purpose. Hugh >Not everyone is going to invest in a transfer switch and no one can >"force" them to. I'm for protecting the lineman and homeowners >upstream of the transformer from injury or death. Pulling the meter >serves that purpose. "Force" is a relative term, and it is a risk vs. gain situation. In This part of the world, it can be up to a $50,000 fine for incorrectly hooking up a generator. it can also carry jail time. heavy duty extension cords are fine for low to medium draw appliances. The transfer switches also require a separate breaker box unless the generator is rated a the full potential that the hose is wired for (like 150 or 200 amp service, etc.). Running romex to generator specific outlets in the house is the cheapest and easiest. But be sure to provide an earth ground for the generator itself, and be sure that GFCI on the generator is active and working. Check with your local power company in regards to pulling the meter. If the fine costs more than a motel stay, it is poor economics. These sorts of regulations vary widely, so it is best to check first. I believe that if you hook a generator up in a way where it is possible to back feed the lines it is illegal- that is, if you pull the meter and feed the box and if someone COULD come along and plug the meter back in, thus back feeding the lines, it is unlawful. From Randy & Val 1990 30' Rexhal Airex > Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer > Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions > welcomed. THANKS. Hi Nate, People do what you want to do everyday. The problem I see is what size/type generator do you have? Does it only supply 110v? If it has 2-110v outlets, you may be able to supply 220v. Only you can answer this question. NEVER pull the meter. By flipping the MAIN switch to off, you will disconnect from the power pole and therefore don't need to worry about back feeding. The power coming into your house has 2-110v leads (called legs), plus a neutral. When both legs are ran to an appliance and also the neutral, you will supply that appliance with 220v. If you only want to use the generator for those occasional emergencies, run 2-110v extension cords of at least 12-2 with ground to 2 different outlets in the house that are on different legs. Your generator should have built-in circuit breakers if you overload the circuit. Run only must-have appliances tho. Good luck! Hank > Does anyone have experience or recomendations on setting up a Transfer > Switch for connecting my 110 volt Motohome Generator to my 200 amp [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > to I get power to all of them (instead of only half). Any suggestions > welcomed. THANKS. Hi Nate, People do what you want to do everyday. The problem I see is what size/type generator do you have? Does it only supply 110v? If it has 2-110v outlets, you may be able to supply 220v. Only you can answer this question. NEVER pull the meter. By flipping the MAIN switch to off, you will disconnect from the power pole and therefore don't need to worry about back feeding. The power coming into your house has 2-110v leads (called legs), plus a neutral. When both legs are ran to an appliance and also the neutral, you will supply that appliance with 220v. If you only want to use the generator for those occasional emergencies, run 2-110v extension cords of at least 12-2 with ground to 2 different outlets in the house that are on different legs. Your generator should have built-in circuit breakers if you overload the circuit. Run only must-have appliances tho. Good luck! The job CAN be done that way but there are much safer ways to accomplish the same goal. Need I mention that doing it your way will void the home owner's insurance and it's not like the insurance company would ignore a way to avoid paying. > NEVER pull the meter. By flipping the MAIN switch to off, you > will > disconnect from the power pole I just have to caution that back in the 1960/1970 era Square D made thousands of mains THAT DID NOT disconnect all power from the meter when the fuse labeled Main was pulled. It only disconnected the 110 volt legs, but all the 220 volt curcuits were still hot through the meter. In anu event, anyone wiring hot to any curcuit with a generator without a transfer switch is not using good common sense IMHO!! Tom J One way to check - throw the switch when under normal operating conditions, if everything quits, it's dead. Go around and take some voltage readings at various places around the house to be sure. Tom J wrote: >> NEVER pull the meter. By flipping the MAIN switch to off, you >>will [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Tom J > One way to check - throw the switch when under normal operating > conditions, if everything quits, it's dead. Go around and take some > voltage readings at various places around the house to be sure. I don't have to do anything but pull the "Main" breaker and I can still hear the electric dryer running, the air still running and the stove still working, because Georgia Power Company supplied the builder of my house with such a house main. There is a large label saying it's Georgia Power property. That's the reason I say you can't make a flat statement that "pulling" the main will disconnect the house from the outside lines. Tom J Tom J Problem with that Tom is the main in Tom J's box must disconnect the neutral leg only. This would kill all the 110 outlets and devices as they are wired to one hot leg and the neutral to get 110. Most any 220 device does not need the neutral to work. They are wired to the 2 hot legs. In MOST cases the only reason a ground or neutral is run is for safety or to let the bulb in the oven or dryer operate. Inside the appliance those sockets are wired to the ground/neutral and one of the hot legs. Simple enough though to check the stove or dryer to see if they do or don't function. And don't look at the lights...turn a burner on and see if it gets hot to be sure. > One way to check - throw the switch when under normal operating > conditions, if everything quits, it's dead. Go around and take some [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> Tom J > Problem with that Tom is the main in Tom J's box must disconnect the neutral > leg only. The neutral buss in a service panel DOES NOT have a disconnect. In fact, for many years, depending on the size of the panel, there may NOT be a "main" disconnect. My previous house (built in 1978) was such an example. This is code legal and was done in many entry-level installations to save the cost of a main disconnect. One had to open several breakers to kill ALL the power to the home. At that time, the NEC stipulated that all power must be killed with 'x' motions of the wrist. Ya gotta love the bureaucrats. This VERY topic is currently RAGING in <news:alt.home.repair> under the subject "Is There An Electrician in the House?". C'mon, folks. If you are too lazy, cheap or careless to install an official "transfer switch", drag out a couple of your RV extension cords and run 'em to the essential appliances during the outage. Signature:) JR Climb poles and dig holes Have staplegun, will travel In article <jim.redelfs-784207.09072724122006@news.lga.highwinds- media.com>, jim.redelfs@NOSPAMredelfs.com says... > In fact, for many years, depending on the size of the panel, there may NOT be > a "main" disconnect. My previous house (built in 1978) was such an example. > This is code legal and was done in many entry-level installations to save the > cost of a main disconnect. One had to open several breakers to kill ALL the > power to the home. At that time, the NEC stipulated that all power must be > killed with 'x' motions of the wrist. Ya gotta love the bureaucrats. That's very common in this area. I've owned four houses in my life, all in the DFW area, and not a SINGLE one of them had a MAIN breaker--you have to throw all the breakers to kill all the power. Nor is there a breaker outside--every time I've had an electrician do something he's had to pull the meter or wire it live. And the previous house was only six years old and a custom plan by an independent builder so this is still being done. Come to think of it, the WW2-era farmhouse I grew up in didn't have a main breaker either--and only SIX breakers to handle the entire house! SignatureJud Dallas TX USA >> Problem with that Tom is the main in Tom J's box must disconnect >> the >> neutral leg only. > > The neutral buss in a service panel DOES NOT have a disconnect. Glad to see someone else has knowledge of these panels, but not glad to hear they are still legal under current code. You are currect that the neutral does not have a disconnect. The fuse set marked "Main" in my box only disconnects both buss bars BELOW all the 220 V circuits. There is no disconnect on the buss bars that all the 220V circuits are on, including the one that is marked "Main" that feeds the 120V circuits. I still contend anyone powering a building with a generator without a transfer switch is in danger of harming someone down line someplace. Do you really want to live with that???? Tom J > I still contend anyone powering a building with a generator without a > transfer switch is in danger of harming someone down line someplace. > Do you really want to live with that???? Based on what's transpired here and in <news:alt.home.repair> there are, sadly, more than a few that do. Signature<sigh> JR > C'mon, folks. If you are too lazy, cheap or careless to install an > official "transfer switch", drag out a couple of your RV extension cords > and run 'em to the essential appliances during the outage. AMEN! > > NEVER pull the meter. By flipping the MAIN switch to off, you > > will [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > In anu event, anyone wiring hot to any curcuit with a generator > without a transfer switch is not using good common sense IMHO!! > Tom J That's the problem. How often does one lose his electric? If it is a weekly occurrence, then a transfer switch installed by a licensed electrician is warranted. However, for the occassional outage, the cost of a transfer switch overrides the function. In older homes, wiring can be very complex with the addition of circuits over the years. But! Generators in MH's have circuit breakers built in and should trip if something is wrong. As with anything, nothing is perfect and extreme caution and COMMON SENSE must prevail. Hank |
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