Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / March 2007
Handicap Sticker Good Idea or Bad????
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qq - 21 Feb 2007 16:10 GMT Has anyone obtained a handicap sticker for the convenience and found that they have opened a can of worms with their insurance company or motor vehicle licensing dept. and found they now have restrictions on their operator's licsense.
qq
JerryD(upstateNY) - 21 Feb 2007 18:32 GMT qq wrote: Has anyone obtained a handicap sticker for the convenience and found that they have opened a can of worms with their insurance company or motor vehicle licensing dept. and found they now have restrictions on their operator's licsense.<<<<<<<<
My wife has one and I don't see any can of worms attached to it. On the pass is the last 3 digits of her driver's license number so police can check to make sure she is the one who is using it.
 Signature JerryD(upstateNY)
Steve B - 21 Feb 2007 18:56 GMT > qq wrote: Has anyone obtained a handicap sticker for the convenience and > found that they have opened a can of worms with their insurance company or > motor vehicle licensing dept. and found they now have restrictions on > their operator's licsense. Warning: The following advice, information, and opinion may not be valid in any way where you live, but you asked for it. It is free and worth the cost.
You don't get a handicap sticker for convenience. You get it because it is difficult for you to walk as far as the regular spaces. Or you have some other limitation that would let you park closer. If you're just old, there is no entitlement for "convenience." You don't get it for being handicapped, but being limited. In some states, not all handicapped can get the special tags. Such as deaf people.
I have had plates and placards in two states. In both states, you needed a form filled out by a doctor. In one of the states, the form is then ruled upon by a panel of DOCTORS before you get the special tags.
If there is any indication of impairment of balance, vision, fainting, or other major conditions that would endanger the driver, then the Board or DMV would put restrictions on the licensee, and that would be a no brainer to understand.
I can't imagine the size of the can of worms one would open if they got in a crash with a pre-existing condition that was kept secret INTENTIONALLY.
Steve
Hustlin' Hank - 24 Feb 2007 03:50 GMT On Feb 21, 1:32?pm, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jer...@wherever.com> wrote:
> qq wrote: Has anyone obtained a handicap sticker for the convenience and > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > JerryD(upstateNY) You pushed my button. Like one poster said " you don't get a handicap sticker for convenience". He is correct. This was a good idea that went bad. The idea behind this is to give the handicapped access to places they couldn't get to before because of the longer walk, wheelchair ride or crutches they had to use.
It seems 95% of the people who have these stickers can walk better than I. People are taking advantage of this and they should be ashamed of themselves. Doctors should also be ashamed for issuing them to non- qualified people. Thank goodness I am not a cop, or my city would be rich.
Hank <~~~Hopes all NY'ers aren't like you.
Steve B - 24 Feb 2007 04:29 GMT > On Feb 21, 1:32?pm, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jer...@wherever.com> wrote: >> qq wrote: Has anyone obtained a handicap sticker for the convenience and [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Hank <~~~Hopes all NY'ers aren't like you. I get a sneer occasionally, because I look healthy. I have had five angioplasties in my life. I had 8 hours of heart surgery where they took my heart out, put it on a table, replumbed it, and put it back in. I am scheduled on April 3 to go in for angioplasty and putting stents in the bypass grafts they did five years ago. I am currently taking nitroglycerine.
But to look at me, I look like someone who healthy, and might be abusing the card.
So, sometimes, you have to think there might be some thing's you don't know.
One day, I see a van pull up in a handicapped spot. Mom and Dad beebop out of the van, and I'm thinking something bad about them, they look so good. They look like they're heading into the store. They are actually going to the side rear of the van to plug in a special key to activate the automatic wheelchair mechanism. Whirr, snap, crackle, pop, and out comes a wheelchair with a profoundly handicapped youngster that looked all of eight years old. I'm not going to say what the voice in the back of my head said.
Now, I don't pay any attention to people who pull into the spaces. I figure that they, like me, might have a very good reason, or if they don't, they'll get what's coming to them down the road. I sure spend less time pissed off and getting high blood pressure and headaches like I did for a few minutes with the people in the van.
Steve
Steve Barker - 24 Feb 2007 05:45 GMT It's not always a visible handicap. Nor a walking one.
 Signature Steve Barker
> It seems 95% of the people who have these stickers can walk better > than I. People are taking advantage of this and they should be ashamed [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hank <~~~Hopes all NY'ers aren't like you. Hustlin' Hank - 24 Feb 2007 11:40 GMT On Feb 24, 12:45�am, "Steve Barker" <ichasetra...@some.yahoo.com> wrote:
> It's not always a visible handicap. Nor a walking one. > > -- > Steve Barker I understand what you are saying, but you have to admit that 95% don't really need that 4-5 car length advantage and the handicap sticker is being abused. I have handicapped friends, have worked beside handicaps and know people who abuse the privilege.
A couple weeks ago I witnessed a guy about 30-35 years old pull into a handicap spot in a pickup. As I sat their waiting for my wife to come out, he took a long time to get out of his truck. I was going to say something to him when he got out, but after stepping out of his truck, he reached in and got a pair of crutches, then proceded into the store. So, I do realize all isn't what it seems.
Maybe I am just a little more sensitive to this than most.
Hank <~~~ remembers when there weren't any fire-lanes :-)
Steve B - 24 Feb 2007 17:15 GMT On Feb 24, 12:45?am, "Steve Barker" <ichasetra...@some.yahoo.com> wrote:
> It's not always a visible handicap. Nor a walking one. > > -- > Steve Barker I understand what you are saying, but you have to admit that 95% don't really need that 4-5 car length advantage and the handicap sticker is being abused. I have handicapped friends, have worked beside handicaps and know people who abuse the privilege.
A couple weeks ago I witnessed a guy about 30-35 years old pull into a handicap spot in a pickup. As I sat their waiting for my wife to come out, he took a long time to get out of his truck. I was going to say something to him when he got out, but after stepping out of his truck, he reached in and got a pair of crutches, then proceded into the store. So, I do realize all isn't what it seems.
Maybe I am just a little more sensitive to this than most
Hank
I'm with you, Hank. Sometimes you can't see what's wrong, but many times, I think someone who is not the handicapped person is using the privilege. I like the states that have some way to insure that ONLY the handicapped person uses the card.
BUT, my MIL is 84, and handicapped. She has heart problems, and is legally blind, although she can see SOME. She can't drive any more. Soooooooo, when wifey takes her to the store, she takes the truck with the hc plates or takes the placard. Grandma has no DMV accreditation, but is entitled to handicapped parking when being driven by someone who is not handicapped. What does everyone think is the right thing to do in this situation?
Steve
mikeyhsd - 24 Feb 2007 18:53 GMT what irks me most is those who appear to have no other need for the handicap placard then being 200 pounds over weight. they really need the exercise. and yeah I know that being over weight also have heart problems.
mikeyhsd@sport.rr.commikeyhsd@sport.rr.com
"Hustlin' Hank" <ninebal310@aol.com> wrote in message news:1172317210.590301.293560@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... On Feb 24, 12:45?am, "Steve Barker" <ichasetra...@some.yahoo.com> wrote: > It's not always a visible handicap. Nor a walking one. > > -- > Steve Barker >
I understand what you are saying, but you have to admit that 95% don't really need that 4-5 car length advantage and the handicap sticker is being abused. I have handicapped friends, have worked beside handicaps and know people who abuse the privilege.
A couple weeks ago I witnessed a guy about 30-35 years old pull into a handicap spot in a pickup. As I sat their waiting for my wife to come out, he took a long time to get out of his truck. I was going to say something to him when he got out, but after stepping out of his truck, he reached in and got a pair of crutches, then proceded into the store. So, I do realize all isn't what it seems.
Maybe I am just a little more sensitive to this than most
Hank
I'm with you, Hank. Sometimes you can't see what's wrong, but many times, I think someone who is not the handicapped person is using the privilege. I like the states that have some way to insure that ONLY the handicapped person uses the card.
BUT, my MIL is 84, and handicapped. She has heart problems, and is legally blind, although she can see SOME. She can't drive any more. Soooooooo, when wifey takes her to the store, she takes the truck with the hc plates or takes the placard. Grandma has no DMV accreditation, but is entitled to handicapped parking when being driven by someone who is not handicapped. What does everyone think is the right thing to do in this situation?
Steve
Hustlin' Hank - 24 Feb 2007 20:14 GMT > I'm with you, Hank. Sometimes you can't see what's wrong, but many times, I > think someone who is not the handicapped person is using the privilege. I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Steve Personally, I see nothing wrong with what your wife and MIL are doing. However, when I take my friend to the store that is on crutches, I drop him off at the door and go park elsewhere. Of course, he can see good, but this way he walks even less than if I parked in a handicap spot.
People who have "true" heart and respiratory illnesses can qualify for one of those little scooter thingies thru their insurance company/ medicare. Now, if they have one of those, should they qualify for handicap parking since the walk would be the same?
Hank <~~~Hates gray areas
JerryD(upstateNY) - 24 Feb 2007 23:56 GMT Personally, I see nothing wrong with what your wife and MIL are doing. However, when I take my friend to the store that is on crutches, I
> drop him off at the door and go park elsewhere. Of course, he can see > good, but this way he walks even less than if I parked in a handicap > spot. If I take my wife to the grocery store I usually park in a handicap area. (she has a handicap sticker) I go into the store and get her a power cart and drive it out to the car. I would use a regular parking spot but I need extra room on the side of the car to drive the scooter up to the door. Some store have the scooters close enough so she can walk to them. Then I drive up to the door, let her out and park in a regular parking spot and walk into the store. I see many people park in a handicap spot and then JUMP out of the car and SKIP to the store.
Steve B - 25 Feb 2007 01:19 GMT > Personally, I see nothing wrong with what your wife and MIL are doing. > However, when I take my friend to the store that is on crutches, I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I see many people park in a handicap spot and then JUMP out of the car and > SKIP to the store. I have handicapped plate and a placard. And there are still many times that I will park in regular parking when there is one close, so that another handicapper can use the spot.
Steve
Ron Recer - 25 Feb 2007 15:00 GMT >> Personally, I see nothing wrong with what your wife and MIL are doing. >> However, when I take my friend to the store that is on crutches, I [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Steve Yep, I often do the same thing.
Ron
Dean - 25 Feb 2007 21:41 GMT >I have handicapped plate and a placard. And there are still many times that >I will park in regular parking when there is one close, so that another >handicapper can use the spot. > >Steve What irritates me is businesses that allocate their HC parking spaces as far away from the entry as they can get without being on the opposite side of the bldg.
Once I noticed a car parking in a space being driven by a low 20's woman. No sticker, no plate. So I pulled in behind her and killed the engine. She reappeared a few minutes later and asked me to move. I told her I was handicapped and couldn't start my car, and that it might take about 10-15 minutes before I could. She ranted and raved but I said, "If you had displayed the proper HC ID, I bet my car would have started right off." She said she was only in there a few seconds (it was closer to 4 minutes). I let her stew for a while and then my car miraculously started.
Steve B - 26 Feb 2007 21:40 GMT >>I have handicapped plate and a placard. And there are still many times >>that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (it was closer to 4 minutes). I let her stew for a while and then my > car miraculously started. And then, what chaps my a.s is that at OutBack, Marie Callender, and Olive Garden, they have the BEST spots right in the front for "TAKE OUT ORDER PICK UP ONLY". And there's like four to six of them.
Steve
Jim Redelfs - 27 Feb 2007 06:24 GMT > And then, what chaps my a.s is that at OutBack, Marie Callender, and Olive > Garden, they have the BEST spots right in the front for "TAKE OUT ORDER PICK > UP ONLY". And there's like four to six of them. Uh, you presumptuous folks better take a deep breath and remember why the businesses are there in the first place. They are in business, first and foremost, to make a profit and please their would-be patrons.
The LACK of a special accommodation does not (or, at least SHOULD not) constitute a "slight" to that otherwise accommodated person. It should be viewed with gratitude for what it is: A special accommodation in your favor.
If you can still see beyond the hood ornament on your car it should be easy to see that a business owner is (or should be) free to operate their business as they see fit. Especially if A.D.A.-forced accommodations are present, the business owner should be able to allocate parking on their property as they like. If doing it their way chaps your @$$, you should go elsewhere.
 Signature JR
Eregon - 27 Feb 2007 06:40 GMT >> And then, what chaps my a.s is that at OutBack, Marie Callender, and >> Olive Garden, they have the BEST spots right in the front for "TAKE OUT [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > allocate parking on their property as they like. If doing it their way > chaps your @$$, you should go elsewhere. I'd suggest that you re-read the Americans with Disabilities Act, Jim, since you seem to be unaware that these reserved parking spaces, ramps, etc., are required by Federal Law and, thus, business owners/mall owners who fail to provide them are subject to major Federal penalties.
The proximity of the reserved parking to entrances is, likewise, mandated on the basis that individuals that use "walkers" for mobility will require this.
If you are so incensed about the provisions of the ADA, take it up with your Congresscritter and Senators since they, and only they, can instigate any changes in the Law.
Jim Redelfs - 27 Feb 2007 13:00 GMT >> Especially if A.D.A.-forced
> you seem to be unaware that these reserved parking spaces, > ramps, etc., are required by Federal Law Given my words, what did I say that makes it SEEM that I am unaware of the requirements of the A.D.A? To the contrary, I am quite aware of them.
> If you are so incensed about the provisions of the ADA I am not incensed by The Act or its provisions. I am, but try VERY hard NOT to be, too often incensed by those that feel they are OWED even more.
 Signature JR
RAM³ - 27 Feb 2007 19:40 GMT > In article <Xns98E46DD13D7Eregon@208.49.80.60>, Eregon > <Eregon@Saphira.org> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > NOT > to be, too often incensed by those that feel they are OWED even more. Owed?
I've never encountered any truly handicapped individual that even hinted that anyone OWED him/her/it anything at all.
The purpose of the ADA was/is to make available, to the truly handicapped, resources that are enjoyed by those of us who do not have severe limitations that, otherwise, would prevent US from partaking of the joys - and duties - of life.
If this means that the "choicest" parking/camping spaces - those with the most convenient access - are reserved for those who, for whatever reason, have difficulty climbing, walking, etc., then so be it.
Rather than complain about a perceived inconvenience, I give thanks that I *don't* qualify!
The ones that "get my goat" are those who feel that their ethnicity is sufficient "handicap" that they are "entitled" to those reserved spaces *with or without* any placards/plates/hangers, etc.
Dean - 27 Feb 2007 20:39 GMT >Given my words, what did I say that makes it SEEM that I am unaware of the >requirements of the A.D.A? To the contrary, I am quite aware of them. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I am not incensed by The Act or its provisions. I am, but try VERY hard NOT >to be, too often incensed by those that feel they are OWED even more. Jim, I am not owed an GD thing. In fact, I am against the ADA. But, I wasn't asked so I will take advantage of it. Same with SSI. I hate it. I think SSI and medicare are a burden on the economy.
No one under 40 will see a penny of SSI and those between 40-50 will pay like mad for both themselves and ME. It just might be salvaged by privatization but the democrats will never allow that. They are too invested in failure to
But, since I am forced into it, I cannot use those same monies to save the way I wanted to which would be paying me about 4X SSI at a minimum.
Eregon - 27 Feb 2007 23:12 GMT >>> Especially if A.D.A.-forced > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > NOT to be, too often incensed by those that feel they are OWED even > more. So, Jim, are you or are you not incensed by the ADA?
You've been complaining about the mandated provisions of the ADA which inconvenience *you* and, yet, you're also complaining about those who take advantage of those provisions.
While the Welfarites in this country "work hard" to "milk the system", only the Congresscritters and Senators actually have any say in the matter and *they* are hard at work to (a) provide all of the perquisites being demanded by the Welfarites and (b) convince the Tax-Paying Public that it's necessary to provide the Welfarites with even more benefits in hopes of buying a few more votes for themselves and their Political Party.
Is it "Right"?
WGAS - it's REALITY.
Dean - 27 Feb 2007 19:58 GMT >Uh, you presumptuous folks better take a deep breath and remember why the >businesses are there in the first place. They are in business, first and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >business owner should be able to allocate parking on their property as they >like. If doing it their way chaps your @$$, you should go elsewhere. Presumptious? Pot-Kettle?
Is my money any less valuable that the person using up a space. I don't go to many of the aforementioned, especially Fry's electronics. I used to spend $1,000-3,000/year. When my back and legs went to pot, I quit spending there. I sent the head man of Fry's a well writen not bellyaching complaint and the SOB didn't see fit to even respond with a "thank-you" form letter or a go to hell note. I haven't been in one in 2 years.
NotMe - 27 Feb 2007 15:41 GMT | >>I have handicapped plate and a placard. And there are still many times | >>that [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] | Garden, they have the BEST spots right in the front for "TAKE OUT ORDER PICK | UP ONLY". And there's like four to six of them. Drop a short polite note to the home office and see what sort of response you get. We did with Olive Garden and were surprised to see the changes in the local parking lot BEFORE we received a response.
Jim Redelfs - 27 Feb 2007 06:12 GMT > What irritates me is businesses that allocate their HC parking spaces > as far away from the entry as they can get without being on the > opposite side of the bldg. I suspect such placement is contrary to A.D.A. requirements. I know that virtually EVERY sizable parking lot in my neck of the woods has PLENTY of HC-designated spots and EVERY ONE is closest to the main entrance. Many are usually unoccupied.
I had some fun the other day: I took my mother-in-law to a HUGE Wal-Mart Supercenter (oxymoron?) and, for the very first time, she used one of their electric carts.
She didn't break anything or anybody, so I guess she did OK.
 Signature :) JR
Steve B - 27 Feb 2007 16:28 GMT And another thing:
What's up with people who drive around with those hanging on their mirror. All I have had said, "REMOVE FROM MIRROR WHILE DRIVING" printed on the bottom.
Steve
RAM³ - 27 Feb 2007 19:43 GMT > And another thing: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Steve You forget that the illiterate can't read... <G>
Rattlesnake - 28 Feb 2007 01:23 GMT >> What irritates me is businesses that allocate their HC parking spaces >> as far away from the entry as they can get without being on the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >HC-designated spots and EVERY ONE is closest to the main entrance. Many are >usually unoccupied. The clear, stable path with no steps or no more slope than 12 to 1 to the entrance may dictate the space location.
JerryD(upstateNY) - 28 Feb 2007 01:37 GMT Rattlesnake wrote:...The clear, stable path with no steps or no more slope than 12 to 1 to the entrance may dictate the space location.<<<<<
That's correct. If the door threshold is 12" higher than the parking lot, the handicap parking spot/spots have to be at least 12' away from the door because they can only go up 1" for every foot of sidewalk.
 Signature JerryD(upstateNY)
NotMe - 01 Mar 2007 03:16 GMT | Rattlesnake wrote:...The clear, stable path with no steps or no more slope | than 12 to 1 to the entrance may dictate the space location.<<<<< [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | parking spot/spots have to be at least 12' away from the door because they | can only go up 1" for every foot of sidewalk. That makes sense but across the drive and 40 foot down the road is another matter.
Or taking all the HC spaces for Christmas trees and other seasonal sales. Customers using the HC spaces as loading zones.
Rtavi - 28 Feb 2007 04:51 GMT >>I have handicapped plate and a placard. And there are still many times >>that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (it was closer to 4 minutes). I let her stew for a while and then my > car miraculously started. I love that. My mom was qualified for a plaque but always would say leave the space for one of those old people who really need it It never fails when I go to Wal-Mart a load of 20 somethings wheel in with their boom box blaring then all pile out and head inside no sticker nothing and they never get ticketed--maybe its a cultural thing?
NotMe - 02 Mar 2007 00:03 GMT "Dean" <
| Once I noticed a car parking in a space being driven by a low 20's | woman. No sticker, no plate. So I pulled in behind her and killed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | (it was closer to 4 minutes). I let her stew for a while and then my | car miraculously started. I love it!!! Next time why not tell her you'll put the car in neutral and suggest she push it out of the way?
Janet Wilder - 25 Feb 2007 03:24 GMT > People who have "true" heart and respiratory illnesses can qualify for > one of those little scooter thingies thru their insurance company/ > medicare. Now, if they have one of those, should they qualify for > handicap parking since the walk would be the same? Qualifying for a scooter from insurance or Medicare isn't as easy as the commercials lead one to believe. With many stores offering electric carts for their handicapped patrons, all most people with cardiac or respiratory problems need is a spot closer to the door. JMHO
 Signature Janet Wilder Bad spelling. Bad punctuation Good Friends. Good Life
Hustlin' Hank - 25 Feb 2007 05:53 GMT > Qualifying for a scooter from insurance or Medicare isn't as easy as the > commercials lead one to believe. With many stores offering electric [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Bad spelling. Bad punctuation > Good Friends. Good Life I guess it is a matter of perspective and circumstances. What I think is just my opinion, like everyone elses. I just feel that if a few car lengths make that much difference, then maybe they should stay home or go to another store where they don't have to park so far away. If they don't have the stamina, how can they walk around in the store? I am talking the big stores (Wal-mart and etc.), not the little convenient stores.
Hank <~~~still thinks majority abuse the privilege
dmartin@newarts.com - 25 Feb 2007 13:10 GMT > I just feel that if a few car > lengths make that much difference, then maybe they should stay home or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Hank <~~~still thinks majority abuse the privilege I look just fine Hank, but can only walk about 5 steps before resting. I can do it without oxygen if I use the store's cart as a walker. That's how I get by with low stamina.
I purposely go to Walmart because it IS big & its bigness helps keep my strength up & I can do it without getting in other people's way. I know Walmart's inventory & about where stuff is for any Walmart I enter.
The situation is the same in the parking lot. If I'm in my camper, I park near a cart storage rack & use a cart as a walker to reach the store. If I'm on my motor scooter I park as close as I can - usually in a striped-out area rather than occupy a handicap site but use such sites sometimes.
It is important for me to go to the store to get food. Otherwise I'd die. I need other stuff too.
Little convenience stores you refer to are much less convenient than Walmart for some of us; they seldom even have counters to lean on & are so crowded with stuff in narrow aisles you can't get out of other people's way. Most people who enter convenience stores are in a hurry. It is very stressful and exhausting to try and keep out of the way of those in a rush. Most hardware stores etc. lack carts too.
I'm also upset by those who abuse handicap parking & services but try not to leap to conclusions.
Anyhow, I hope I've explained why some of us with physical limitations go to big stores. We have to eat too and the big stores are easier for us to negotiate.
dmartin@newarts.com - 25 Feb 2007 13:38 GMT On Feb 25, 8:10 am, dmar...@newarts.com wrote:
> > I just feel that if a few car > > lengths make that much difference, then maybe they should stay home or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > Hank <~~~still thinks majority abuse the privilege Earlier you asked why some of us (like me) don't use a handicap motorized cart, 'cause then we wouldn't need the close space, thereby freeing it up for others who may or may not need it.
Well, I'll tell ya. It is a lot of work getting such a cart on & off its carrier. The cart gets in everyone's way. Riding around in the cart doesn't keep leg muscle tone up.
Now I do agree that a downside of modern medicine is that it keeps a lot of sick people around & we'd probably be better off cost wise if they'd all disappear. I'm not ready to volunteer for that yet and will try to minimize my impact on the healthy.
Hustlin' Hank - 25 Feb 2007 17:53 GMT On Feb 25, 8:10?am, dmar...@newarts.com wrote:
> I look just fine Hank, but can only walk about 5 steps before resting. > I can do it without oxygen if I use the store's cart as a walker. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > go to big stores. We have to eat too and the big stores are easier for > us to negotiate. If you can only walk 5 steps before resting, I'd like to believe I could notice that handicap. :-)
I am not saying that there aren't handicap people that deserve the spots. If what you say is true, then you, like many others on here, deserve to use the spots.
But to get a sticker because "you can" or it is more convenient, is just plain abuse of an origianlly good idea.
Hank <~~~~thinks too many people abuse many privileges
NotMe - 27 Feb 2007 16:04 GMT "Hustlin' Hank"
| > I look just fine Hank, but can only walk about 5 steps before resting. | > I can do it without oxygen if I use the store's cart as a walker. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] | But to get a sticker because "you can" or it is more convenient, is | just plain abuse of an originally good idea. Hank,
The requirement is a variable for many folk. My friend (the 80 y.o. marine) likely could get from the car to the store on foot without the need of HC parking. But what is he to do for the return trip? Recall the effects of a disability are not predictable from day to day or even from hour to hour.
As to people abusing the placard. Recall 95% of the world suffers from hemorrhoids ... the other 5% are perfect A**H***s. These are the same folk who would feel privileged enough to park in fire zones.
BTW it is not only a good idea it's a law.
Ron Recer - 25 Feb 2007 15:49 GMT >> Qualifying for a scooter from insurance or Medicare isn't as easy as the >> commercials lead one to believe. With many stores offering electric [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Hank <~~~still thinks majority abuse the privilege It isn't always a stamina issue. My problem is a knee issue. A little walking doesn't bother me, a lot of walking or stairs does. When I go to a Wal-Mart supercenter I don't roam the entire store. I either park at the grocery end or the other end and only go to the part of the store near where I am parked.
Some take advantage of handicapped permits by using a spouse's (some even a deceased spouse's permit) or parent's permit. One large hospital in Oklahoma City is noted for checking the permit number and finding out who it was issued to. When people return to the vehicle they will ask of the permit holder's ID. If the permit holder isn't present the driver gets a ticket!
My wife doesn't use my permit and I don't use it when I am driving and she is going in the store while I wait in the parking lot. I think all holders of handicapped permits would welcome a more vigorous approach to rules enforcement.
Ron
Paul Johnson - 25 Feb 2007 16:19 GMT > It isn't always a stamina issue. My problem is a knee issue. A little > walking doesn't bother me, a lot of walking or stairs does. When I go to [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > holders of handicapped permits would welcome a more vigorous approach to > rules enforcement. Good for you. I get very tired of seeing a vehicle with a young couple in it, zip into a handicapped space and walk briskly in to a store. I have also seen cars with obviously handicapped passengers drive into handicapped spaces only to have a young caregiver hop out and run into the store. Paul Johnson
Steve B - 25 Feb 2007 17:13 GMT I think all holders
> of handicapped permits would welcome a more vigorous approach to rules > enforcement. > > Ron I, personally, am going to find out if my community has volunteer enforcement officers, and do it if they do.
Steve
Dean - 25 Feb 2007 21:54 GMT >> Qualifying for a scooter from insurance or Medicare isn't as easy as the >> commercials lead one to believe. With many stores offering electric [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Bad spelling. Bad punctuation >> Good Friends. Good Life
>Hank <~~~still thinks majority abuse the privilege Hank, it has been my observation that minorities abuse the privilege far more.
Dean
JerryD(upstateNY) - 26 Feb 2007 01:10 GMT Dean wrote:... Hank, it has been my observation that minorities abuse the privilege far more.
Dean, Same around here. Most have a driver in the car, waiting for passenger. If there isn't a HC parking spot nearby they will park right in the road. Fire lanes mean nothing.
 Signature JerryD(upstateNY)
Rtavi - 28 Feb 2007 04:58 GMT > Dean wrote:... Hank, it has been my observation that minorities abuse the > privilege far more. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If there isn't a HC parking spot nearby they will park right in the road. > Fire lanes mean nothing. Same here (south MS) consistantly young and are never ticketed. I have seen this dozens of times dont seem to see this with other groups maybe the figure ethnicity is a handicap.
Eregon - 28 Feb 2007 05:07 GMT >> Dean wrote:... Hank, it has been my observation that minorities abuse >> the privilege far more. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > seen this dozens of times dont seem to see this with other groups maybe > the figure ethnicity is a handicap. It's like that nationwide, especially during February.
Jud Hardcastle - 26 Feb 2007 15:14 GMT > People who have "true" heart and respiratory illnesses can qualify for > one of those little scooter thingies thru their insurance company/ > medicare. Now, if they have one of those, should they qualify for > handicap parking since the walk would be the same? Resounding YES. My roommate's mom can't walk at all (polio) and uses a scooter. The driver has to take the scooter out of the trunk and then around to the passenger side carefully positioning the scooter in the open door so that with the help of a custom made transfer seat she can pull herself onto the scooter while the other person stands close to help if needed. Takes a good 15 minutes both directions. YOU try doing that without a wide handicap space! Sure you can park further away next to an open space--with no guarantee it will be open when you come out. They may or may not have left you enough room. If not then you have to move the car to another area that does have two spaces open--if there is one--while she has to follow on the scooter risking getting hit. We've had to do just that a few times. Thanks but no thanks--I'll continue to use her legally issued handicap sticker and park in handicapped spaces when she's in the car thank you.
 Signature Jud Dallas TX USA
Steve B - 26 Feb 2007 21:48 GMT > Resounding YES. My roommate's mom can't walk at all (polio) and uses a > scooter. The driver has to take the scooter out of the trunk and then [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > help if needed. Takes a good 15 minutes both directions. YOU try doing > that without a wide handicap space! What gets me is that they paint the van accessible spaces with the extra lined space ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, and not on the side where the wheelchair usually comes out of the van. What engineer came up with that one?
STeve
Hustlin' Hank - 26 Feb 2007 23:11 GMT > What gets me is that they paint the van accessible spaces with the extra > lined space ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, and not on the side where > the wheelchair usually comes out of the van. What engineer came up with > that one? > > STeve I was at Wal-mart today at approx. 11:30 am. Approx. 20% or more, of the cars there were parked in a handicapped space. Is 20% of our population handicapped? I would hope not.
Why do they put the cart corrals away from the handicap spaces? Shouldn't they be right next to them?
Hank <~~~~~keeping the fire stirred :-)
NotMe - 27 Feb 2007 16:24 GMT "Hustlin' Hank"
>I was at Wal-mart today at approx. 11:30 am. Approx. 20% or more, of >the cars there were parked in a handicapped space. Is 20% of our >population handicapped? I would hope not. We went to Olive garden at 4:30 yesterday. 70%+ of the patrons were over 65 y.o. is 70% of the population over 65?
Or could it be that OG has a 20% early bird senior discount?
Wonder what the numbers would be on tonight when kids under 12 eat free?
John Andrews - 28 Feb 2007 02:22 GMT > "Hustlin' Hank" > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Wonder what the numbers would be on tonight when kids under 12 eat free? We were in jupiter, FL, recently and decided to eat at a nice restaurant right next to the Publix. As we entered I noticed that there was an early bird dinner with appetizer, entree, and dessert for a good price - say $18.00. I looked at my watch and it was 5:55 so I said to the hostess, "We just made it!" She laughed and seated us. The place was reasonably full for that time of day and thinking back on it, most were fairly on in years like we are.
The meal was extra special, beautiful presentation, delicious, perfect in every way. A delight! Unusual for a restaurant in essentially a strip mall. As we left at about 7 PM, there were few patrons left. Seems all the old folks have found a special place and take advantage of it.
We were staying in our RV at Johathan Dickenson State Park and the Cobblestone Cafe restaurant is in Tequesta on Highway One.
John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee
John Andrews - 27 Feb 2007 02:25 GMT >> Resounding YES. My roommate's mom can't walk at all (polio) and uses a >> scooter. The driver has to take the scooter out of the trunk and then [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > STeve Methinks that a normal person faced with this situation would simply park on the blue lines.
GBinNC - 27 Feb 2007 02:47 GMT >> What gets me is that they paint the van accessible spaces with the extra >> lined space ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, and not on the side where >> the wheelchair usually comes out of the van. What engineer came up with >> that one? >> >> STeve
>Methinks that a normal person faced with this situation would >simply park on the blue lines. Or turn the van around and back it in.
GB in NC
Steve Barker - 27 Feb 2007 03:44 GMT you hit the nail on the head. An _engineer_ was involved.
 Signature Steve Barker
>> Resounding YES. My roommate's mom can't walk at all (polio) and uses a >> scooter. The driver has to take the scooter out of the trunk and then [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > STeve Jim Redelfs - 27 Feb 2007 06:26 GMT > What gets me is that they paint the van accessible spaces with the extra > lined space ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, and not on the side where > the wheelchair usually comes out of the van. What engineer came up with > that one? You're kidding, right?
They're HANDICAPPED, Steve. They can approach that spot and park in it in ANY manner they like. If they get it wrong, well... Experience is the best teacher.
 Signature <sigh> JR -- :) JR
Steve B - 27 Feb 2007 16:23 GMT >> What gets me is that they paint the van accessible spaces with the extra >> lined space ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, and not on the side [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > manner they like. If they get it wrong, well... Experience is the best > teacher. While I have seen a few bonehead people back into parking spaces, the majority I have seen in the parking lots I have ever been in pull into spaces. I have also seen lots of handicapped spaces with the extra lined areas on the WRONG side of the van.
What part of that don't you understand?
sigh ........
Steve
Eregon - 27 Feb 2007 23:20 GMT "Steve B" <SurDO2Diver@Neptune.com> wrote in news:%VYEh.64146$6L3.21554 @newsfe08.phx:
> While I have seen a few bonehead people back into parking spaces, the > majority I have seen in the parking lots I have ever been in pull into > spaces. I have also seen lots of handicapped spaces with the extra lined > areas on the WRONG side of the van. In the past 6 months, I've seen a surprising number of vehicles driven by wheelchair-bound drivers that have a remote-controlled lift that swings the empty chair from/to the area normally occupied by a rear seat (4-door van, 'Burb/Expedition, pickup) or directly into the bed of a pickup.
These lifts place the chair right beside the driver's seat.
BTW, not too long ago, I met a wheelchair-bound motorcyclist. [His bike had been equipped with an open-rear sidecar and had been modified so that the handlebars were mounted in the front of the sidecar along with the hand- operated gearshift and brake levers. <G>]
NotMe - 01 Mar 2007 03:07 GMT "Steve B"
| >> What gets me is that they paint the van accessible spaces with the extra | >> lined space ON THE DRIVER'S SIDE OF THE VEHICLE, and not on the side [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] | | What part of that don't you understand? Curious I have a dodge van with doors on both sides and the WC can exit either side (and the back) so which exactly is the wrong side? And given that there is a wrong side how do I tell?
Also what's wrong with backing into a parking place? Seems the practice has been around for a long time (recall parallel parking in the driver's test)
Steve B - 01 Mar 2007 04:40 GMT > "Steve B" > | > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > has > been around for a long time (recall parallel parking in the driver's test) Apparently, you don't get out a lot. My point was that sometimes, the way they paint the spaces doesn't make a lot of sense.
For example: There will be six parking spots, the usual 9' wide x 18' deep, but two of them are labeled "Van Accessible" or "Van Only". Or there will be a mix of spots with the extra lined areas on both sides of the vehicle.
In my case, I don't have a wheelchair. And, it has been pointed out to me (which I didn't realize heretofore) that some people need to have the extra space on EITHER side of their vehicle. I had supposed that all handicap vans had the egress on the passenger side.
But, getting back to my original point, any reasonable person would conclude that there are inconsistencies in the way handicapped spaces are lined and marked.
Further enlightenment encouraged.
Steve
JerryD(upstateNY) - 01 Mar 2007 06:04 GMT Around here they have one handicap space, the next space is painted with orange diagonal lines, with a second handicap space past it. This makes the "loading area" spot on the left of one parking space and on the right of the other.
 Signature JerryD(upstateNY)
> For example: There will be six parking spots, the usual 9' wide x 18' > deep, but two of them are labeled "Van Accessible" or "Van Only". Or [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Steve Hustlin' Hank - 01 Mar 2007 12:39 GMT OK, I am a little confused. Why wouldn't a HC person that uses a power- wheelchair park out where other cars aren't? Logic tells me s/he would have much more room, not likely to get boxed in, and have the comfort of knowing the car next to them wouldn't slam their door into their van. Besides, the distance shouldn't matter to them since they are powered and not walking.
Hank <~~~thinks people don't think anymore
Frank Tabor - 01 Mar 2007 13:47 GMT > OK, I am a little confused. Why wouldn't a HC person that uses a power- > wheelchair park out where other cars aren't? Logic tells me s/he would [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Hank <~~~thinks people don't think anymore Because the lift ramp takes up half or more of the next parking spot. If the chair is mounted on a hitch rack, I don't know, except that the person is going to need more room to get in and out of the car.
How many times have you parked in a spot and some inconsiderate bastard parked so close to you that you can't get your door open to get in or out. No try to do it when you are trying to balance on a cane or walker.
 Signature Frank Tabor He that is giddy thinks the world turns round. -- William Shakespeare, "The Taming of the Shrew"
Dean - 01 Mar 2007 18:59 GMT >> OK, I am a little confused. Why wouldn't a HC person that uses a power- >> wheelchair park out where other cars aren't? Logic tells me s/he would [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >parked so close to you that you can't get your door open to get in or >out. No try to do it when you are trying to balance on a cane or walker. IOW, Hank was "hoisted on his own Placard"?
Bwahahahahahahah.
I crack me up sometimes.
JerryD(upstateNY) - 01 Mar 2007 14:04 GMT Hustlin' Hank wrote:...Why wouldn't a HC person that uses a power- wheelchair park out where other cars aren't? > Hank <~~~thinks people don't think anymore<<<
I think this time it is you who isn't thinking. <g> You could park at the far end of the parking lot and have someone pull up right next to you while you are in the store/whatever. Now how do you get into the car/van ?
 Signature JerryD(upstateNY)
NotMe - 01 Mar 2007 15:21 GMT "Hustlin' Hank"
| OK, I am a little confused. Why wouldn't a HC person that uses a power- | wheelchair park out where other cars aren't? Logic tells me s/he would | have much more room, not likely to get boxed in, and have the comfort | of knowing the car next to them wouldn't slam their door into their | van. Besides, the distance shouldn't matter to them since they are | powered and not walking. It takes on one time where the lift door is blocked by another vehicle for however long to make it clear that parking in the 'out back' is not wise.
Then there is the security concerns with of parking away from the main 'gate' as a disabled person is an easy target.
Steve B - 01 Mar 2007 22:11 GMT > Around here they have one handicap space, the next space is painted with > orange diagonal lines, with a second handicap space past it. > This makes the "loading area" spot on the left of one parking space and on > the right of the other. I understand that, BUT, I have seen six or eight regularly painted HC parking spots, none wider than the other, yet a couple of them, even in the middle of the rest of them, that have signs "VAN ONLY". They have no extra space between them and the next space.
Steve
NotMe - 01 Mar 2007 19:56 GMT "Steve B"
| > Curious I have a dodge van with doors on both sides and the WC can exit | > either side (and the back) so which exactly is the wrong side? And given that there is a wrong side how do I tell?
| > Also what's wrong with backing into a parking place? Seems the practice | > has been around for a long time (recall parallel parking in the driver's test)
| Apparently, you don't get out a lot. My point was that sometimes, the way | they paint the spaces doesn't make a lot of sense. | | For example: There will be six parking spots, the usual 9' wide x 18' deep, but two of them are labeled "Van Accessible" or "Van Only". Or there will be a mix of spots with the extra lined areas on both sides of the vehicle.
| In my case, I don't have a wheelchair. And, it has been pointed out to me | (which I didn't realize heretofore) that some people need to have the extra space on EITHER side of their vehicle. I had supposed that all handicap vans had the egress on the passenger side.
| But, getting back to my original point, any reasonable person would conclude that there are inconsistencies in the way handicapped spaces are lined and marked.
| Further enlightenment encouraged. Bad assumption on how much I get out as some of the volunteer 'jobs' my family does is hospice and elder companionship.
Part of this involved driving a 'small' HC equipped van to take folk to the mall and other places. If we have a 'crowd' we take the big 'party' van one of the local churches provides. I call ahead to make sure I have a safe load/unload point and out of the way parking as the big boy is, in reality, a specialized Class C with all that that entails.
I do pro bono advocacy work with the various zoning boards to address the less than thoughtful requirements resulting from the people in charge not having a clue. BTW this includes representing the interest of the local business when the requirements are unreasonable for their side.
As example several of the small towns in were given bad info by a consultant and as a result were running around requiring any business that remodeled to install a third rest room that was fully HC accessible. BIG bucks in the best of circumstances. In any case I was able to arrange (for free) expert input to show the third rest room was an option not a requirement and finally what accommodations would be both legal and effective. There is no sense in requiring someone to spend money if it's not necessary, even less if it's not effective.
Fortunately 99% welcome the input but every once in a while I'm elected 'Project S.O.B.' and I tend to make the most of the honor.
As to how we educate. One of the local wheel chair 'shops' willingly provides demo equipment so that the person who is limited in understanding can get a real world experience in what the ADA HC requirements mean. More correctly what the lack of implementation means.
We give them the chance to play 'a day in the life' roll games. Usually they get the point in an hour or so but still we push for them to take the entire day. If nothing else they get lunch (cheap, but on me) with some of our friends who are also advocates and HC. The inevitable Q&A is very effective.
Recall the adage states nothing like a 'mile in the another man's shoes' to bring the point home.
Painting must be in accordance with standards set by the ADA. I do agree with your point that some are a bit odd. Odd in that they are not as effective as they might be, not so much that they waste space. (Although some at Wal-Mart come d*mned close).
As to how the requirements are set: Usability studies are done (using many of the protocols developed for NASA) on turning radii, clear zones, load limits. (some electric mobility equipment weigh in near half a ton and that's with out the person and the medical equipment.)
Steve B - 01 Mar 2007 22:15 GMT > "Steve B" > | > [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > limits. (some electric mobility equipment weigh in near half a ton and > that's with out the person and the medical equipment.) Good on you!
But you must admit in your travels, that you have seen some peculiar and downright ridiculous layouts, paint jobs, and configurations .............. all done by well intentioned people, but just lacking the engagement of any brain activity.
You did admit to that, sorry ..........
That's all I meant to point out.
Steve
NotMe - 02 Mar 2007 00:24 GMT "Steve B"
| But you must admit in your travels, that you have seen some peculiar and | downright ridiculous layouts, paint jobs, and configurations .............. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | That's all I meant to point out. I don't avoid the hard truth. As to the bad outcomes I do what I can but I'm not paid for what I do ... not even expenses.
There is an opportunity ... go for it.
NotMe - 27 Feb 2007 16:12 GMT | > Resounding YES. My roommate's mom can't walk at all (polio) and uses a | > scooter. The driver has to take the scooter out of the trunk and then [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | the wheelchair usually comes out of the van. What engineer came up with | that one? Being disabled does not mean iunable. Many can drive. I've a friend who lost his legs in a crash. Guy is one of the best pilots I know. (he has a special medical certificate from the FAA that allows him to fly and skydive).
NotMe - 27 Feb 2007 15:35 GMT "Steve B"
| BUT, my MIL is 84, and handicapped. She has heart problems, and is legally | blind, although she can see SOME. She can't drive any more. Soooooooo, | when wifey takes her to the store, she takes the truck with the hc plates or | takes the placard. Grandma has no DMV accreditation, but is entitled to | handicapped parking when being driven by someone who is not handicapped. | What does everyone think is the right thing to do in this situation? I've been (rudely) told I should drop off my friend and go park the car then return. Works some of the time but as often as not the person I'm transporting has other problems and I can't just leave them on the curb (we're hospice volunteers and work with the state foster program as medically certified foster grandparents). An aside you have no idea how much joy we get from working in these programs.
As to your MIL stay with her if for no other reason than she might get disoriented. Those that don't understand you'll never be able to educate. You owe them no explanation anyway.
On the few occasions I've been threatened with someone calling the law I give them a business card with a phone number to the desk contact with the local police and my cell phone. I have yet to have anyone follow through.
Steve B - 27 Feb 2007 16:24 GMT > "Steve B" > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > local police and my cell phone. I have yet to have anyone follow > through. You haven't met my MIL. She's ten times more likely to tell someone to f.ck off than I am.
Steve
Janet Wilder - 24 Feb 2007 14:07 GMT > It seems 95% of the people who have these stickers can walk better > than I. People are taking advantage of this and they should be ashamed > of themselves. Doctors should also be ashamed for issuing them to non- > qualified people. Thank goodness I am not a cop, or my city would be > rich. Hank, Sometimes appearances aren't everything. It is impossible to tell who has certain medical conditions because of how they walk.
Many people with cardiac conditions have perfectly normal gaits yet their hearts may only be functioning at 20% of less of capacity. They could have congestive heart failure which could leave them gasping for breath if they walk any distance at all.
There are other people with severe respiratory problems who also can't walk distances. Their gait appears normal, too.
We can't tell what's wrong with a person just by looking at them in a parking lot.
JMHO J
 Signature Janet Wilder Bad spelling. Bad punctuation Good Friends. Good Life
b b - 27 Feb 2007 22:37 GMT > > It seems 95% of the people who have these stickers can walk better > > than I. People are taking advantage of this and they should be ashamed [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > JMHO > J Janet, you sure cannot tell by looking what might be a reason for a handicapped parking permit!
DW is recovering from a hip replacement, and just CANNOT fall until the new bone grows in, or the new hip may be jarred out of place. She's walking pretty good now, and walking is good therapy her, but we use the handicapped parking if it might be a slippery walk to our destination in our MA winter. It's a temporary permit, but quite justified, and recommended strongly by the doctor.
Strongly supporting Janet's opinion! Barrie B
NotMe - 27 Feb 2007 15:19 GMT "Hustlin' Hank"
| > qq wrote: Has anyone obtained a handicap sticker for the convenience and | > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] | qualified people. Thank goodness I am not a cop, or my city would be | rich. You're quite right there is abuse of the accommodation.
The problem is that more than a few that 'don't look disabled' are in fact limited in their mobility.
I have a friend that when he goes out without his wheel chair (docs what him out of the chair as much as he can take) needs the HC parking and gets a ration of grief as a result.
When he does use his WC he can move around without the need of HC parking and gets a ration of grief BECAUSE he is not taking advantage of HC parking.
Guy is a fisty 80 something y.o. Marine and when confronted by someone who gets in his face "You don't look handicapped" comes back in his DI voice "and you don't look like an A**H***" I half expect the target to pee his/her pants.
One of the most effective programs I've seen to address the abuse is when the local police give volunteer disabled folk legal authority to issue tickets and the local courts enforce the program.
The harsh truth is that most of us are TAB (temporally able bodied) and many may well need the HC option in the future.
FWIW my wife qualifies but refused to use the privilege as in her mind 'there are others who need the space more than she' but there are times when it's either the HC space or not getting out of the car. As for myself there are days when I can walk a mile, there and back, and others when I can't get to the head without help.
dmartin@newarts.com - 25 Feb 2007 13:55 GMT On Feb 21, 1:32 pm, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jer...@wherever.com> wrote:
> qq wrote: Has anyone obtained a handicap sticker for the convenience and > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > JerryD(upstateNY) My permanent handicap tag from Iowa has had no impact on licensing or insurance that I'm aware of. Police pay no attention to it.
Oh, the police in Boone, Iowa will ticket you for driving with obstructed vision if you forget to remove the tag from the rear-view mirror I've been told.
Frank Tabor - 21 Feb 2007 18:46 GMT > Has anyone obtained a handicap sticker for the convenience and found that > they have opened a can of worms with their insurance company or motor > vehicle licensing dept. and found they now have restrictions on their > operator's licsense. > > qq Depends on the state and the type of handicap you have. If your handicap restricts the ability to safely and properly operate a motor vehicle, then by all means the state and insurance company should step in.
 Signature Frank Tabor There was a young lady from Spain Who demurely undressed on a train. A helpful young porter Helped more than he orter, And she promptly cried "Help me again"
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