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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / February 2007Handicap Camp Sites
The talk about handicap parking, tags, plates and placards caused me to recall one of my rather obscure and, thankfully, minor pet peeves: The handicap camp site that remains unoccupied (and unpaid) for an entire weekend when ALL the rest of the campground is full. I believe that, once the last "regular" site is occupied and the [Campground Full} sign is about to go up, the next would-be camper through the gate should be allowed to occupy - and pay for - that LAST site, the handicap site. The campground can certainly use the money and no one is being discriminated against given the site was held open for differently-abled campers until the bitter end. What thinkest thou?  Signature:) JR > The talk about handicap parking, tags, plates and placards caused me to > recall one of my rather obscure and, thankfully, minor pet peeves: The [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > discriminated against given the site was held open for differently-abled > campers until the bitter end. What thinkest thou? What about the handicap camper that shows up at about midnight and wants to use the spot he is entitled to, by law? SignatureFrank Tabor Chicago, n.: Where the dead still vote ... early and often! > What about the handicap camper that shows up at about midnight and wants > to use the spot he is entitled to, by law? Screw 'em. In that case s/he's out of luck just like any other camper showing-up late. Of course, there's [drum roll] THE LAW! We can debate the A.D.A. until the cows come home. Simply because someone convinced an M.D. to grant them a special designation/privilege should not ELEVATE them to a status that bestows extra accommodation at the expense of - and beyond - the rest of us, as in this particular situation. Just like any "wrong" that is righted, there are instances of the fix going too far. That, of course, requires that it was "wrong" that society did not provide many/any handicap accommodations for many, MANY years. I am unconvinced of that. Non-smokers FINALLY got the "right" to smoke-free places. Of course, that was at the expense of smokers that are now a notch or two below the lowest form of life that must now crawl out from under their rock and proceed to an outdoor location where they must enjoy their legal habit with other under-rock dwellers - usually the middle of a field in rural Nebraska lest another even SMELL the odor of burning tobacco. During a full-campground weekend, I feel it is a waste to leave ONE, good site open - just in case someone with the required placard happens along. They rarely do. JR > Non-smokers FINALLY got the "right" to smoke-free places. Of course, that > was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > even > SMELL the odor of burning tobacco. That's not true. I consider smokers one peg ABOVE lawyers. Steve >That's not true. I consider smokers one peg ABOVE lawyers. > >Steve I would love to see people on here document harms caused to them by lawyers compared to those who cannot. What do you want to bet that virtually none of the lawyer naysayers have NOT been harmed. How about you, Steve? And I do not mean they had a jury that went against their desires. Shall we do the poll? And none of this, "I have a friend who said his second cousin has a friend that got screwed...." Dean I may have started a firestorm. I don't know as I'm just beginning to read the replies to my OP after two overtime days of snowstorm telephone service recovery work... > I would love to see people on here document harms caused to them by > lawyers compared to those who cannot. Everyone "hates" a lawyer - until they NEED one. I have a very POSITIVE lawyer fee refund story story (as opposed to "I lost the case" stories). I hope this thread doesn't follow a "lawyers path" away from my topic. Signature<sigh> JR Mean, Evil Bell System Historical Society >> That's not true. I consider smokers one peg ABOVE lawyers. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > virtually none of the lawyer naysayers have NOT been harmed. How > about you, Steve? I worked with and for lawyers for many years. There are a few decent people in the profession, but most are worse, IMO, than the prostitute on the street corner. There are some things the whore won't do for money. There is *nothing* most lawyers won't do for money. My husband and I found out after we were married that his ex-wife and my ex-husband had the same lawyer. This guy's ethics were as low as it goes. He stood in front of the judge and told him that I didn't need child support from my ex-husband, the father of my children, because my new husband had just sold his former marital home and had cash in the bank. We took the scum bag to the bar association ethics committee and they decided he did not behave unethically. Professionally and personally, I have seen lawyers cause more problems than the litigants originally had just to raise their fees. I agree with the OP. BTW, I'm a cancer survivor and not very fond of having smokers around me, but I think they do less harm than lawyers. JMHO and experience. SignatureJanet Wilder Bad spelling. Bad punctuation Good Friends. Good Life >>> That's not true. I consider smokers one peg ABOVE lawyers. >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > having smokers around me, but I think they do less harm than lawyers. > JMHO and experience. You know this parking program for the Handicapped was a federal mandate directed to businesses with penalties for noncompliance. But take a look at the federal / local governmental offices complying to it, most all that I have seen put the spots a good distance from the entrance door. Don't believe it, just observe where the post office and VA buildings as well as many other government offices locate the spots. SignatureBill P. Just Me & DOG -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com William Boyd II <williamboyd-ii@hotmail.com> wrote in news:45e36acc$0$18465 $88260bb3@free.teranews.com: > You know this parking program for the Handicapped was a federal mandate > directed to businesses with penalties for noncompliance. But take a look > at the federal / local governmental offices complying to it, most all > that I have seen put the spots a good distance from the entrance door. > Don't believe it, just observe where the post office and VA buildings as > well as many other government offices locate the spots. ROFLMAO! A few years ago, one of Houston's TV stations carried a story about the large number of County Workers that had obtained "Handicap" hangers for their cars so as to be able to park in front of the County Courthouse without having to put any money in the meters. All were able-bodied, all were members of the same ethnic minority, and, following the airing of the story (which showed a number of them climbing into their cars) all had to return the hangers. No disciplinary action was taken other than to recall the hangers. Then there is the City of Houston Assistant City Attorney who has his "handicap" hanger prominently displayed - hanging from the mirror - in his 6- speed ZR-1 Corvette. (He claims to have injured his back while skydiving...) And, of course, there are the hundreds of able-bodied "minority" drivers with hangers issued to elderly relatives that never seem to be in the car... "William Boyd II" | You know this parking program for the Handicapped was a federal mandate | directed to businesses with penalties for noncompliance. But take a look | at the federal / local governmental offices complying to it, most all | that I have seen put the spots a good distance from the entrance door. | Don't believe it, just observe where the post office and VA buildings as | well as many other government offices locate the spots. Some local governments pay consultants to tell them just how far (away) they can push the parking limits. Some time back Clint Eastwood spent several hundred thousand dollars fighting an ADA issue that would have cost <$20K to fix after the fact and around $5K to address before the fact. > I would love to see people on here document harms caused to them by > lawyers compared to those who cannot. What do you want to bet that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Shall we do the poll? And none of this, "I have a friend who said his > second cousin has a friend that got screwed...." 1. Most Practicing Politicians [State/Federal Legislators, Lobbyists, etc.] are Lawyers. 2. Most of the idiot Laws are the result of Bills drafted by Lawyers. 3. Most Law Suits are requested by Lawyers. 4. Most Judges are Lawyers. [There can, in some states, be a provision for a non-Lawyer to be elected Justice of the Peace which, in turn, enables that person to run for other Judicial Offices.] 5. The Lawyers' Union [The ABA] decides, in most cases, which Lawyers get appointed to Judgeships and campaigns for those it supports for elective positions. Thus, if a Law - be it Taxation, Regulation, Prohibition, or Confiscation - causes any individual to have to cough up additional monies to support the unworthy, build/purchase/repair the unnecessary, defend the unrighteous, persecute the righteous, and/or reduce the individual's ability to pursue his/her/its own perception of Happiness [so long as no others are injured], then you can "thank" a Lawyer. BTW, "Legal Ethics" is a code phrase that means "Get your money in advance - before the other slimeball can get at it." An old question: Q: "What's the difference between a Lawyer and a Catfish?" A: "One is a slimy, mud-sucking, bottom-feeder and the other is a fish." > I would love to see people on here document harms caused to them by > lawyers compared to those who cannot. What do you want to bet that > virtually none of the lawyer naysayers have NOT been harmed. How > about you, Steve? > > Dean I was involved in a workman's comp case. During that, it was obvious that I was going to be permanently disabled. My attorney said to go ahead and file for Social Security disability, and that "it didn't make any difference." Wrong. The settlement was applied to future social security payments, and now I don't get my first SS check until September, 2007, two and a half years after I was declared totally disabled. It did make a difference. Steve | >That's not true. I consider smokers one peg ABOVE lawyers. | > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | virtually none of the lawyer naysayers have NOT been harmed. How | about you, Steve? The most dangerous 'lawyers' are the ones elected to office but then anyone elected to public office is a potential problem. >> What about the handicap camper that shows up at about midnight and >> wants to use the spot he is entitled to, by law? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > JR There is really no choice here. If a campground owner decides to offer a Handicap camping space, he has to honor it. It's the same as the very last parking place in a parking lot. If it has a Handicapped Blue sign on it, then just because there are no other spots available, you cannot park in it with out a Handicapped pass. that little Blue sign makes all the difference. And if one camping spot is going to break a campground owner, then he shouldn't be in business. SignatureFrank Tabor Q: How do you save a drowning lawyer? A: Throw him a rock. >> During a full-campground weekend, I feel it is a waste to leave >> ONE, good site open - just in case someone with the required >> placard happens along. They rarely do. > There is really no choice here. Based on conversations with the super at my favorite state campground, you are probably right. <sigh> > If a campground owner decides to offer a Handicap camping space If the offering is voluntary, I can see the benefactor being urged (contractually or morally) to honor it to some pre-set rules. > If it has a Handicapped Blue sign on it, then just > because there are no other spots available, you cannot > park in it with out a Handicapped pass. In that case, the campground operator should be able to go to the site and, with the removal of the requisite TINY padlock (a la reserved site changeable signage), obscure and/or remove the handicap sign for that night. > if one camping spot is going to break a campground owner, > then he shouldn't be in business. Yeah, and the sun comes up in the morning. :\ (My point wasn't to debate the philosophies "frugal" and "extravagant".) Whatever MONEY (Yeah, I know. I'm a Capitalist. Sosumi) can be made from a site is that much more money than they'd have if the site remained unpaid. Of course, the effort to accomplish my "solution" (above) would be, for many operators, more hassle than the site was worth if it was paid. I guess I'm getting tired of regularly walking past more than a few empty, handicapped-reserved, parking stalls at [big box store]. Perhaps, as our society continues to age, they will fill. (Sad to say) Otherwise, I'm sure the requirements of the now 17-year-old Americans with Disabilities Act could use a good review and revision before it becomes as holy and untouchable as FDR's debacle coming home to roost. <http://www.ada.gov/> Signature:) JR Climb poles and dig holes Have staplegun, will travel > I guess I'm getting tired of regularly walking past more than a few > empty, handicapped-reserved, parking stalls at [big box store]. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > before it becomes as holy and untouchable as FDR's debacle coming > home to roost. Where I like to go camping, I have never once seen a handicapped spot occupied. These are always the best sites that are truly level and made of concrete instead of asphalt. Sure is a shame that these are just being wasted. > What about the handicap camper that shows up at about midnight and wants > to use the spot he is entitled to, by law? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Chicago, n.: > Where the dead still vote ... early and often! What if the handicap site was already taken by a handicap? Is it really a law? If so, Federal or state law? How would they prove it? Why did he/she show up so late? Anybody, handicapped or not, that tries to check in that late gets what they deserve. If I were on the jury, I'd vote "first come first served", no matter what their status. In todays world, camping is a luxury, not a necessesity. Hank <~~~hard hearted, cruel, a.s :-) Campground is already full-fool. phantom >> The talk about handicap parking, tags, plates and placards caused me to >> recall one of my rather obscure and, thankfully, minor pet peeves: The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > What about the handicap camper that shows up at about midnight and wants > to use the spot he is entitled to, by law? Children, if you wish to reduce your stress level on this topic, think of handicap parking as applicable to mental as well as physical limitations. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > Children, if you wish to reduce your stress level on this topic, think > of handicap parking as applicable to mental as well as physical > limitations. > > Will Sill > The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill Are you justifing your sticker/plate? Hank >> Children, if you wish to reduce your stress level on this topic, think >> of handicap parking as applicable to mental as well as physical [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Hank Shouldn't that read PLATES? I believe Will would have one on every side of his vehicle. If they were for mental conditions, he would have one of those 3' x 3' stickers that they slap on asphalt parking spots on each side of his "RV". Steve > Campground is already full-fool. No if the handicap spot is open, a.shole. SignatureFrank Tabor The weed of crime bears bitter fruit... but the leaves are good to smoke! -- The Shadow you da a.shole, fool phantom >> Campground is already full-fool. > > No if the handicap spot is open, a.shole. | > The talk about handicap parking, tags, plates and placards caused me to | > recall one of my rather obscure and, thankfully, minor pet peeves: The [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | What about the handicap camper that shows up at about midnight and wants | to use the spot he is entitled to, by law? The same thing that happens when the HC site is occupied by someone with a handicap. NO VACANCY. As I recall the ADA requires only that HC accommodations be provided but once room or space is rented it's a full house. Additionally there does not seem to be a requirement that the last room in the inn be kept vacant against the possible arrival of a HC individual. That said the same does not apply to parking spaces. BTW the law stipulates the minimum number of parking spaces but if a business caters to HC clients the number of spaces required can be increased. As example a rehab clinic at a hospital or a company that sells/services wheel chairs. What thinkest thou?<<<< I think it would be cheaper for the campground owner to leave the site empty than to pay for a lawyer when some handicapped person stops in and sues him/her. There are many things that don't make sense but have to be done a certain way or someone will get sued. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) > The talk about handicap parking, tags, plates and placards caused me > to recall one of my rather obscure and, thankfully, minor pet peeves: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > discriminated against given the site was held open for > differently-abled campers until the bitter end. > What thinkest thou?<<<< > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > There are many things that don't make sense but have to be done a certain > way or someone will get sued. Is it even an issue in privately owned campgrounds? I have only seen designated handicapped camp sites in state and federal campgrounds. I suppose they could change the rule on handicapped sites to allow them to be used by anyone if a handicapped person had not occupied the site by 6 or 7 pm. However, that would probably open a whole new can of worms arguing over if was it really 6:01 pm or was it 5:59 pm! <g> Ron >> The talk about handicap parking, tags, plates and placards caused me >> to recall one of my rather obscure and, thankfully, minor pet peeves: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> discriminated against given the site was held open for >> differently-abled campers until the bitter end. "Ron Recer" | > I think it would be cheaper for the campground owner to leave the site | > empty than to pay for a lawyer when some handicapped person stops in and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | 7 pm. However, that would probably open a whole new can of worms arguing | over if was it really 6:01 pm or was it 5:59 pm! <g> Take for example a CG that has all sites HC accessible would by extension the owner be prevented from renting to anyone with out a HC tag? >The talk about handicap parking, tags, plates and placards caused me to recall >one of my rather obscure and, thankfully, minor pet peeves: The handicap camp [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >bitter end. What thinkest thou? > Now that I can agree with. I use handicap spaces based on fill rate , both at campgrounds as well as parking lots, such as WalMart. If several HC spots are available and few regular ones, they should be used, letting the regular ones be used by normal abled bodied folks. SignatureCan't we all just get along? BILL P. Just Me & DOG -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > The talk about handicap parking, tags, plates and placards caused me to > recall [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the > bitter end. What thinkest thou? I have handicapped plates and placard, but I never use the HC space unless it is the last one available. I have only done this twice, and one time was two weeks before bypass surgery when I could hardly walk. I get more incensed by the vacant spaces that are reserved for people who never show up. It should be first come, first served in state and federal campgrounds. Period. Steve > I get more incensed by the vacant spaces that are > reserved for people who never show up. If its a BIG problem, the campground operator is simply not sufficiently punitive with his cancellation/no-show fees. > It should be first come, first served in > state and federal campgrounds. Period. I have a BIG problem with that, given its "Period" status. (All sites, no exceptions.) During my now-grown, three daughters upbringing, we camped a lot. Mostly locally, of course, but, while they were home, we did three >500-mile (one-way) trips to Rocky Mountain National Park. We once - ONCE - did a 16-day trip to Yellowstone and Grand Teton. These campouts mark the high points of our camping together as a growing family. I would not have made all the arrangements and other efforts for such outings with the five of us were it not for the security of knowing we had a place - SOME/ANY place - to stay within the national park we were visiting. I know what a burden it is on fulltimers when everything is reserved *BUT* they, on the other hand, have the luxury of staying put Sunday and pulling-out Monday or Tuesday, increasing their chances of finding a good spot at their destination. My favorite, "local" (40-miles, one-way) state park went "on-line" last season and offered reserved sites for the first time. With my new-found "primitive" site, I didn't make an opportunity to test the system that reserves the electric-hookup sites only. I see a happy medium in which half of the sites are reservable and the other sites are first come, first served. Signature:) JR >> I get more incensed by the vacant spaces that are >> reserved for people who never show up. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > other > sites are first come, first served. And I believe I have stated my position. Period. Steve > The talk about handicap parking, tags, plates and placards caused me to recall > one of my rather obscure and, thankfully, minor pet peeves: The handicap camp [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > against given the site was held open for differently-abled campers until the > bitter end. What thinkest thou? I got a late reservation recently (Jan) at a Florida state park. We were given a handicap space. Right next to the rest rooms and the washer and dryer (to Mrs. A's delight) and where the coffee and donuts were to be had the next morning delivered by a sweet elderly lady camping host. The other handicap site was empty, all the rest were full. In the morning, the other handicap site was occupied. Seems that that policy is not universal. John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee |
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