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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / April 2007

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Broken A/C

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David Moffitt - 25 Apr 2007 04:49 GMT
How difficult is it to install a roof A/C unit? Mine has gone out on my 25'
5th wheel. After researcing the papers on my used Jayco I cannot determine
what size it is. Would anyone have an idea what size BTU unit a 25' would
have been equipped with?

If something can go wrong, FIX it! (To hell with Murphy.) When in doubt,
THINK! If you can't win, change the rules. If you can't change the rules,
ignore them. The squeaky wheel gets canned. Do things by the book, but be
the author. If you can't beat 'em, join'em then beat'em. Everything in your
life is based on something else and in order to live a full life you must
find what lies at the root of all else. For me, it's my self.
GBinNC - 25 Apr 2007 08:54 GMT
>How difficult is it to install a roof A/C unit? Mine has gone out on my 25'
>5th wheel. After researcing the papers on my used Jayco I cannot determine
>what size it is. Would anyone have an idea what size BTU unit a 25' would
>have been equipped with?

Take the cover off (inside, that is). There should be a label in plain
sight that tells you everything you need to know about the model and
size.

Replacing it should be simple (one you figure out how to work topside).
They're not as heavy as you might imagine -- after all, they ride for
years on an unreinforced fiberglass roof (at least, the one on my Class
B does)....

GB in NC
Matt Colie - 25 Apr 2007 13:01 GMT
David,

My 23' GMCMH has a 15k unit and it does OK, but we keep out of places
that are real hot.

Is it the fan that quit or is it not making cold air?  If it is the fan
(that never gets the required lubrication service - more later), that
can probably be replace for less than the cost of a new unit.

I take my rooftop AC off almost every fall.  Otherwise I can not get the
MH into the 10' barn door to do the winter work.

Find a good tree or something to lift from first.

Take the cover off the ceiling unit and disconnect the ac feed.

There are three or four (model dependent) big fasteners you will see
then.  Have the wrench ready.

Park under the hoist and go up and take the cover off the unit before
trying to tie on and lift it.  (intact covers are a valuable item - if
it is - save it)  The cover is held on by the nuts on the unit top.

Take a small piece of line (the units are not very heavy ~100#) to sling
the unit up.  There is often space between the roof seal and the rear
support block that supports the compressor weight to get a line through
there, but you will need more than that because the unit won't lift flat.

Then the hoist is attached, start to take up load.  The seal is usually
not typically glued to the unit but it often sticks so be real ready to
push and pry to break it loose.

Now that the AC unit is hanging over your 5er, I'll leave you to figure
out how you are going to deal with it.

More About little AC unit fan motor (as promised)
Small AC units almost all have cheap little plain bearing motors.  These
motors have bearing that require occasional lubrication.  The only way
to do this is remove the cover (right!).  On an RV unit the hard part is
getting up on the roof.  Then take of the four nuts and lift the cover
off (do this before the wasps are active).  Look for the two little
covered tubes at the motor ends or little plugs in the motor end frames.
 That is where the oil goes.

House hold AC units are much the same, you only have to remove a couple
of hundred sheet metal screws to get the window seal and covers off to
get to the silly motor.

About the oil....  This is nothing special, but it is not automotive
engine oil.  This does not want the stuff that is in automotive lube
oil.  A bottle of multipurpose oil is cheap enough.  3in1 (if it is
still out there) will do OK.  WD-40 Will Not.

I hope this is help.

Matt Colie

> How difficult is it to install a roof A/C unit? Mine has gone out on my 25'
> 5th wheel. After researcing the papers on my used Jayco I cannot determine
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> life is based on something else and in order to live a full life you must
> find what lies at the root of all else. For me, it's my self.
David Moffitt - 25 Apr 2007 15:04 GMT
> David,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> (that never gets the required lubrication service - more later), that can
> probably be replace for less than the cost of a new unit.

The compressor is not running, everything else works. Last year it was
working so good it would cool it down quickly on hot August days.

> I take my rooftop AC off almost every fall.  Otherwise I can not get the
> MH into the 10' barn door to do the winter work.
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
>> your life is based on something else and in order to live a full life you
>> must find what lies at the root of all else. For me, it's my self.
Matt Colie - 25 Apr 2007 16:31 GMT
>> David,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> The compressor is not running, everything else works. Last year it was
> working so good it would cool it down quickly on hot August days.
<snip>

Dave,
There is still hope...........

There are a number of minor electrical problems that could get you to
the same place.

Free Advice (all the normal cautions apply)
Get up on the roof.  Take the plastic cover off and put a hand on the
compressor.

If it is vibrating (and not making cold) - you lose - pass the cover to
the ground and begin removal.  Refrigerant leaks in little units are
usually hard to find.  It might be worth looking at, but at what these
people charge it isn't worth looking for very long.

If it is not vibrating - you probably have a simple electrical problem.

There is usually a wiring diagram inside.  The thermostat is a likely a
failure as any other.

If you are not capable and do not have a friend that will climb on the
roof for you, it is worth your while to get the unit down and take it to
a shop.

Good Luck

Matt Colie
David Moffitt - 25 Apr 2007 17:06 GMT
>>> David,
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Matt Colie

I was on the roof yesterday and took the cover off while the unit was
running. All of the fans were running but the compressor did not run at all.
No hum--- no vibration--- remained cool. I have looked on the web and cannot
find a reference where it tells me what to check with an ohms meter --- ect.
Any ideas?
Lee - 25 Apr 2007 19:56 GMT
> I was on the roof yesterday and took the cover off while the unit was
> running. All of the fans were running but the compressor did not run at all.
> No hum--- no vibration--- remained cool. I have looked on the web and cannot
> find a reference where it tells me what to check with an ohms meter --- ect.
> Any ideas?

If I remember correct there is a start/run capacitor on all AC's and if
it does not work then the compressor does not run.  Hey it is an old
memory so if I am wrong correct me!  That is a cheaper repair than a
total AC but not sure how you would get it tested.  Our repair people
here probably can tell you either where to go to get it tested or how to
test it yourself.

Lee (wish I was smarter)  (in Florida)
stan.birch@hotmail.com - 25 Apr 2007 20:32 GMT
>> I was on the roof yesterday and took the cover off while the unit was
>> running. All of the fans were running but the compressor did not run at all.
>> No hum--- no vibration--- remained cool. I have looked on the web and cannot
>> find a reference where it tells me what to check with an ohms meter --- ect.
>> Any ideas?

>If I remember correct there is a start/run capacitor on all AC's and if
>it does not work then the compressor does not run.  Hey it is an old
>memory so if I am wrong correct me!  That is a cheaper repair than a
>total AC but not sure how you would get it tested.  Our repair people
>here probably can tell you either where to go to get it tested or how to
>test it yourself.

Yeh, Lee is right!  A/Cs tend to last forever; and when probelms
arise, they are invariably inexpensively electrical in nature. If not
the start/run capacitors, the next suspect would be the compressor
relay and associated relay-delay circuitry.
Lee - 25 Apr 2007 20:36 GMT
> Yeh, Lee is right!  A/Cs tend to last forever; and when probelms
> arise, they are invariably inexpensively electrical in nature. If not
> the start/run capacitors, the next suspect would be the compressor
> relay and associated relay-delay circuitry.

Hi Stan

Thanks, I figured someone would reply with a more informative answer!

Lee (in Florida)
stan.birch@hotmail.com - 25 Apr 2007 20:56 GMT
>> Yeh, Lee is right!  A/Cs tend to last forever; and when probelms
>> arise, they are invariably inexpensively electrical in nature. If not
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Thanks, I figured someone would reply with a more informative answer!

Not exactly a personal observation; but something I picked up from the
Coleman Service Manual. While the sealed systems generally tend to
last forever, electrical components (at least the kind and quality
they select) don't. Coleman's Service Manual troubleshooting
recommendations focuses upon electrical problems first; and place
potential sealed system problems at the very bottom of the list as a
last-resort consideration.
NotMe - 25 Apr 2007 20:56 GMT
| > I was on the roof yesterday and took the cover off while the unit was
| > running. All of the fans were running but the compressor did not run at all.
| > No hum--- no vibration--- remained cool. I have looked on the web and cannot
| > find a reference where it tells me what to check with an ohms meter ---  
ect.
| > Any ideas?
|
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
|
| Lee (wish I was smarter)  (in Florida)

If it's a capacitor the unit would draw a lot of current and which would
likely trip the breaker.

Could be a failed klicks-on (spl) or other overload cut out.

Testing requires a VOM and a bit of technical ability.  If you don't know
the drill you could get hurt.
stan.birch@hotmail.com - 25 Apr 2007 21:18 GMT
>Testing requires a VOM and a bit of technical ability.  If you don't know
>the drill you could get hurt.

Using a meter incorporating a capacitor-test function is a pretty
commonplace instrument within the RVing community.
NotMe - 25 Apr 2007 21:59 GMT
| >Testing requires a VOM and a bit of technical ability.  If you don't know
| >the drill you could get hurt.
|
| Using a meter incorporating a capacitor-test function is a pretty
| commonplace instrument within the RVing community.

Serviced HVAC systems years back (but not much of late, thank you very much)
and don't have much faith in the 'capacitor test' function but then I
usually had access to a swap out capacitors.

Regardless if the OP is not a bit electrically savvy they could get hurt.
David Moffitt - 25 Apr 2007 23:30 GMT
Thanks to all for suggestions. I posted a question on an HVAC group and
mostly got I didn't know what I was talking about or didn't want to pay for
a service call. All of the HVAC places I called said they didn't work on
them and the RV places immediately said I needed to replace the unit. It was
working before winter but not this spring. The compressor (IMHO) would not
have failed while shut off. All suggestions/ideas appreciated. I'm going to
check everything with an OHMS meter tomorrow (except the capacitor). OUCH!
Matt Colie - 26 Apr 2007 01:33 GMT
> Thanks to all for suggestions. I posted a question on an HVAC group and
> mostly got I didn't know what I was talking about or didn't want to pay for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> have failed while shut off. All suggestions/ideas appreciated. I'm going to
> check everything with an OHMS meter tomorrow (except the capacitor). OUCH!

'
OK Dave,

Now that we know something, let's try to get you along a little bit
farther.

Lets also try real hard to not get you killed while we are doing this.

The compressor doesn't seem to run (by the by, many get cold when they
run - unless there is something wrong).

Before you climb up on the roof, open the breaker for the AC and then
turn it on MAX COLD.

There is a box (so called) on the compressor.  Two wires go in. (Maybe
two come out to a capacitor.)
Push the spring that is over the top down to open it.
Look in that box.
There are two things in the box,
a temperature limit switch (round thing held on by a spring) and
a start relay that is usually plugged right onto the compressor
terminals.
One of the two inbound wires goes to the switch and one to the relay.
With the unit unpowered (circuit breaker open), pull a wire of the
temperature switch (Klikson is a brand name)(either one- it won't
matter) use the ohmmeter on the switch - should be Zero
If it has a capacitor, pop the little rubber cover off and remove one
wire.  Put your ohmmeter on it it should jump down and back up to
infinity pretty fast.  Now reverse the meter leads and do the same thing
again.  The same thing should happen.  If yes, the capacitor is probably
good.  If not unscrew it and find someone (like an electric motor shop
that can give you a second opinion.
Because this is a hard wired unit (most RV are) we can't do the next
test the way I would like to so......  (This why you turned it on.)
Now measure resistance between the two wires that feed the compressor.
Because you left the fan at max, this will read a small number of ohms
IF the thermostatic switch inside is working.
Last cold test.
Measure between the switch wire you removed and the other inbound wire.
This should be an even smaller number than you just got.  IF it is
higher than the fan, that is not good (it is also very rare).  It could
still be the start relay, but we are into really rare.

Only if nothing so far gives a definitive answer should you try the next
trick.  I would advise against doing it alone.

Reassemble any wires you disconnected, and power the unit up.
The fan can be on low.
Set you meter to read AC Volts scaled for 125.
Now carefully measure the voltage between the two feed wires.
I hope it says Zip. - Your problem is downstairs and cheap.
If it is close to line voltage, not good.
If you hear the compressor going:
CLICK---HuMMM-CLICK----------CLICK--HuMM-Click.
Shut it down, the click is the temperature limit switch which is also
kind of a circuit breaker protecting things.

Well, I'm tired and my brain is getting fuzzy.
If this doesn't get you there, come back with what you find and we can
try again.

Best of luck

Matt Colie
David Moffitt - 26 Apr 2007 01:39 GMT
>> Thanks to all for suggestions. I posted a question on an HVAC group and
>> mostly got I didn't know what I was talking about or didn't want to pay
[quoted text clipped - 68 lines]
>
> Matt Colie

Thanks!
Chris Hill - 25 Apr 2007 15:31 GMT
>How difficult is it to install a roof A/C unit? Mine has gone out on my 25'
>5th wheel. After researcing the papers on my used Jayco I cannot determine
>what size it is. Would anyone have an idea what size BTU unit a 25' would

Probably a 13.5.  I changed one on our previous camper.  It wasn't
ducted like some are, and had no thermostat to mess with.  The hardest
part was getting it on the roof.  Thank goodness the trailer was a
Hi-lo.  Only thing I did spedcial was wire the new unit up in the
garage to make sure it worked before I installed it.  I forget who
sells them, but there is a place on the 'net if still around, has a
good deal on the Carrier units.
William Boyd-II - 27 Apr 2007 15:20 GMT
>How difficult is it to install a roof A/C unit? Mine has gone out on my 25'
>5th wheel. After researcing the papers on my used Jayco I cannot determine
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>  

I changed out a/c units on two of my previous RVs. Had a pickup with the
standard tool box in the front of the bed.
loaded the un-created a/c unit up on to the tool box. Placed two 2x4s up
against the rv and roped the a/c unit up on to the roof. Once you take
the inside cover off of the a/c, you will see the bolts that is run
through the lower plate and up in to the a/c base. These bolts just hold
the unit down tight on to a rubber foam square gasket that prevents rain
from comming in under the a/c unit. Wires should be readily seen, make
sure the power is off. Switch out the old for the new.
How did I determine the a/c unit should be replaced rather than
repaired, simple to me both units were more than eight years old and
deserved to be relieved by another unit that would give just as good
long trouble free service.
As for the size of your old unit, I'm not sure but, you could have
either a 15K or 13.5, with my make of rv I currently have the 15K is
optional otherwise you get the 13.5. I guess one could make the thing
work just as well if not better if you replaced what ever size it is
with the larger unit. Installation instructions came with both the
replacement a/c units I ordered.
Here is one listing on a/c units just to review, I do not necessarily
suggest you use this company.
http://www.go-rv.com/coast/do/catalog/page?index=A&pageNext=TRUE&dealerId=7&page
Num=296


This is the tech data on the Forrest River products.
http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/default22.asp?nav=rec

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William Boyd-II - 27 Apr 2007 16:03 GMT
>> How difficult is it to install a roof A/C unit? Mine has gone out on
>> my 25' 5th wheel. After researcing the papers on my used Jayco I
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> This is the tech data on the Forrest River products.
> http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/default22.asp?nav=rec

Appears  as though the Jayco is about the same.
http://www.jayco.com/php/products/standards.php?id=125

Signature

BILL P.
Just
Me
&
DOG

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