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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / May 2007Any experience with on-demand water heaters?
We have a 2007 Tioga (23') and would like to install a LP on-demand water heater. If anyone reading this has gone through this process and would share their experiences (good OR bad), it would be greatly appreciated. We're especially interested in initial installation costs, and knowing how/where the exhaust pipe is installed. Our search led us to this unit: http://www.amazon.com/Bosch-AquaStar-Tankless-Water-125FX-LP/dp/B0006GVNYU Any specific experience with Bosch? Thanks! Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot water tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? You can get hot water that way for no extra cost. Plus, from a safety standpoint it would be much safer than gas. Harry Harris > We have a 2007 Tioga (23') and would like to install a LP on-demand > water heater. If anyone reading this has gone through this process [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Thanks!  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot water >tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? You can get >hot water that way for no extra cost. Plus, from a safety standpoint it >would be much safer than gas. You seem to be saying that LP gas is not safe compared to gasoline. Care to elaborate? GB in NC >>Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot water >>tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? You can get [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > GB in NC You have to carry a tank of gasoline (or diesel) to run your motor. Your motor produces all the heat you need to heat water and to spare. So why add the extra danger of gas? Not to mention the expense? I suppose you're looking at the fact you have LP gas tanks anyway for the stove/oven so what's the difference? Well, there's the matter of the extra gas plumbing to the on-demand heater. Better to have a leak in a hot water pipe than a leak in a gas line, don't you think? Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > >>Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot water > >>tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? You can get [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > extra gas plumbing to the on-demand heater. Better to have a leak in a > hot water pipe than a leak in a gas line, don't you think? Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but wouldn't you have to run the engine for a while every time you wanted to take a shower? >> >>Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot >> >>water [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but wouldn't you have to > run the engine for a while every time you wanted to take a shower? Negative! With a well-insulated tank you'd have at least warm water even the next morning from the previous day's drive. The evening after your drive it would still be quite hot. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > >> You have to carry a tank of gasoline (or diesel) to run your motor. > >> Your [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the next morning from the previous day's drive. The evening after your > drive it would still be quite hot. Ah ok. I'm finding a few on demand heaters that replace the existing 6-gallon tank heater, and they vent through the existing wall plate on the RV. So as for your other point, I don't believe any extra pipes (or propane) would be necessary. >> >> You have to carry a tank of gasoline (or diesel) to run your >> >> motor. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > the RV. So as for your other point, I don't believe any extra pipes > (or propane) would be necessary. You have to get the gas to the burner somehow, don't you. That means extra tubing and fittings. Why not take advantage of the electrical plug in from the campground for safety and the heat of your engine for economy. Check out the price of this water heater: http://www.ducktec.com/itm00150.htm Bet you can't beat that price for hot water. (provided you take reasonable showers!) More models here: http://www.ducktec.com/boat-waterheater.html Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Harry Harris wrote:... Check out the price of this water heater: http://www.ducktec.com/itm00150.htm Bet you can't beat that price for hot water. (provided you take reasonable showers!) He didn't say he wanted a cheap water heater He said he wants to take a 20 minute shower and you are showing him a heater that will only provide a 2 minute shower. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) > Harry Harris wrote:... Check out the price of this water heater: > http://www.ducktec.com/itm00150.htm [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > He said he wants to take a 20 minute shower and you are showing him a > heater that will only provide a 2 minute shower. I know, and I admitted in an answer to him that for his long showers an on-demand heater is the only way to go. But there might be some people here who are more conservative in their hot water usage and for them a heat exchange/electric tank would do the job safer and more economically. That's all. I'm sorry if I offended you in some way. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> Harry Harris wrote:... Check out the price of this water heater: >> http://www.ducktec.com/itm00150.htm [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Harry Harris Actually, a 10 gallon water heater that operates on propane and electric at the same time will give you enough hotwater for long showers. I don't know about 20 minute showers as we haven't tried that. Another possibility is is a HydraHot system that runs off of diesel, instant hotwater at all outlets plus warm floors for those cold mornings! Also, worrying about leaking or broken propane lines to a water heater is absurd. Far more people are killed or injured in traffic accidents with their RV than due to leaking or broken propane lines. Ron >Also, worrying about leaking or broken propane lines to a water heater is >absurd. Far more people are killed or injured in traffic accidents with >their RV than due to leaking or broken propane lines. Ron, that was sorta where I was headed, but you made the point well. (Along with your "have your RV hauled to an open field" post <g>.) GB in NC > Ron, that was sorta where I was headed, but you made the point well. I've always wondered about the logic behind "more people are killed because of blah blah blah" when working towards eliminating an unrelated problem. For instance, the past few years there have been several people killed from exhaust fumes building inside houseboats. They passed some regulations to change the rear design on such boats that caused gas build up. However, the argument could easily be made that far more people are killed by other boating accidents or problems than have been by the exhaust issue. Therefore should the exhaust issue just be ignored? >> Ron, that was sorta where I was headed, but you made the point well. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > been by the exhaust issue. Therefore should the exhaust issue just be > ignored? I agree with you. I have a difficult time seeing where this attitude comes from that it's OK to just ignore the lesser dangers. Every life is valuable. Every reasonable precaution should be considered and taken if the benefits outweigh the liabilities. It's very unfortunate that laws have to be passed like the seatbelt law in order to make people protect themselves. It seems to me people would be interested in protecting themselves without any other motive than self-preservation or love for their families. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>> Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot water >>>> tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? You can get [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but wouldn't you have to > run the engine for a while every time you wanted to take a shower? No - the heater in my unit has an electric element and an engine jacket heat exchanger (no LP burner). We always have usable hot water after a night's rest. It isn't as hot as it was when we stopped for the night, but it sure isn't cold. >>>>> Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot >>>>> water tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? You [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > night's rest. It isn't as hot as it was when we stopped for the night, > but it sure isn't cold. And that would work on my fifth wheel how? SignatureFrank Tabor English literature's performing flea. -- Sean O'Casey on P. G. Wodehouse >>>>>> Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot >>>>>> water tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > And that would work on my fifth wheel how? Yes, but you'd have to install special supply lines that you'd connect at the fifth wheel pivot. Might be worth considering. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>>>>> Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot >>>>>>> water tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Harry Harris Are you for real? I'm firmly convinced that somebody already ate your dessert. SignatureFrank Tabor In the first place, God made idiots; this was for practice; then he made Harry Harris. -- Mark Twain >>>> Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot water >>>> tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? You can get [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but wouldn't you have to > run the engine for a while every time you wanted to take a shower? No. The motor heats the water while you drive to your destination. When you arrive, the water is hot. You do not have to wait for the water to heat at that point. If you stay overnight, you must still heat the water using either electric or gas. We have no problems with hot water at all. In the morning when things have cooled down a little, I turn on the hot water heater first thing, then take my shower in the water as it is warming up. It keeps up with me but does not get real hot so there is no delay mixing hot and cold. Later DW showers using the normal gas heated hot water. Our 6 gallon heater is fine for both of us, but we do not take 20 minute showers! John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee >>>> Seems like a bad idea to me. Wouldn't it be better to have a hot water >>>> tank that's heated by a heat exchanger run off the motor? You can get [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Sorry if I'm missing something obvious, but wouldn't you have to > run the engine for a while every time you wanted to take a shower? No. The motor heats the water while you drive to your destination. When you arrive, the water is hot. You do not have to wait for the water to heat at that point. If you stay overnight, you must still heat the water using either electric or gas. We have no problems with hot water at all. In the morning when things have cooled down a little, I turn on the hot water heater first thing, then take my shower in the water as it is warming up. It keeps up with me but does not get real hot so there is no delay mixing hot and cold. Later DW showers using the normal gas heated hot water. Our 6 gallon heater is fine for both of us, but we do not take 20 minute showers! John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee >> You seem to be saying that LP gas is not safe compared to gasoline. >> Care to elaborate? >> >> GB in NC >You have to carry a tank of gasoline (or diesel) to run your motor. Your >motor produces all the heat you need to heat water and to spare. Not arguing with that at all -- although of course there are limitations on how well that might work if you didn't travel every day. >So why >add the extra danger of gas? Not to mention the expense? I suppose >you're looking at the fact you have LP gas tanks anyway for the >stove/oven so what's the difference? Well, there's the matter of the >extra gas plumbing to the on-demand heater. Better to have a leak in a >hot water pipe than a leak in a gas line, don't you think? You sidestepped my question. Please read it again. If using LP gas is somehow more dangerous than gasoline, there are a lot of us here who would like to know about it, if you don't mind sharing. GB in NC > You sidestepped my question. Please read it again. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > GB in NC Sorry, I guess I failed to make my point that two independent sources of fire or explosion danger are more of a risk than just one. Is that clear enough? Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> You sidestepped my question. Please read it again. >> If using LP gas is somehow more dangerous than gasoline, there are a >> lot >> of us here who would like to know about it, if you don't mind sharing. >> >> GB in NC >Sorry, I guess I failed to make my point that two independent sources of >fire or explosion danger are more of a risk than just one. Is that clear >enough? Well, that was certainly clearly stated. But that's not an answer to my question, which was "You seem to be saying that LP gas is not safe compared to gasoline. Care to elaborate?" GB in NC >>> You sidestepped my question. Please read it again. > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > GB in NC OK. But, I'm not going to do your work for you anymore. Just Google "propane explosion". That should make you maybe a little bit concerned. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>> You sidestepped my question. Please read it again. >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Harry Harris And that will get a different response from putting "gasoline explosion" in the search engine how? Hugh >>>>> You sidestepped my question. Please read it again. >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > explosion" in the search engine how? > Hugh (Yanking hair out in big clumps!) Google them BOTH then. Now add them together. You get MORE explosions, right! So, having BOTH gasoline and propane in your RV increases your chance of explosions. Right? Yes, right. The Google searches just proved it. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>>>> You sidestepped my question. Please read it again. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Harry Harris Google 'fatal RV traffic accidents' and you will get a lot more hits than you will get for RV propane and gasoline explosions! You need to have your RV hauled to an open field where you can use it without gasoline, diesel, propane or electricity. That would be far safer than any other usage! <g> Ron snipped > (Yanking hair out in big clumps!) Google them BOTH then. Now add them > together. You get MORE explosions, right! So, having BOTH gasoline and > propane in your RV increases your chance of explosions. Right? Yes, > right. The Google searches just proved it. > > Harry Harris What you apparently are not considering is the many, many rv's with propane on board that NEVER have any explosion problems. I'm looking at your posts and wondering if you have chicken feed for lunch. Every gasoline burning vehicle out there has the potential of "blowing up", reality is that is a very rare event. To be perfectly frank I can't see where you're coming from with this line, propane safety features have practically eliminated disasters related to rv's. Not eliminated completely but for all practical considerations the possibility is almost nil. Hugh > snipped >> (Yanking hair out in big clumps!) Google them BOTH then. Now add them [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Harry Harris What would you recommend as a replacement for "propane" (LPG)? oso >> snipped >>> (Yanking hair out in big clumps!) Google them BOTH then. Now add [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > oso Electricity is safer. Electricity is cheaper. Electricity is better. Electricity is cleaner. It should be mandated that RVs be all-electric. Everything that gas does, electricity can do better. You can even produce your own electricity by using a generator and even better yet installing a photovoltaic array on the rooftop. A couple extra batteries and an inverter will give you electricity even when there's no hook up available. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>> snipped >>>> (Yanking hair out in big clumps!) Google them BOTH then. Now add them [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Harry Harris Electricity neccesitates the use of a generator or solar cells. A generator requires gasoline, a product that NFPA records show to be more hazardous than LPG. My little knowledge of solar cells tells me that enough of them to power a stove and/or furnace would not only be prohibitively expensive but also requirie subtantially more roof support than is presently available in most RVs. I don't even know if you could get enough of them on the roof of my 25' Alumascape to power the A/C. oso > Electricity neccesitates the use of a generator or solar cells. Only if dry camping, boon docking etc. The vast majority of RV'ers do not do so. However, I'm one that does dry camp quite a bit. The droaning noise of generators nearby already is a PITA especially when people run them all night. >even better yet >installing a photovoltaic array on the rooftop. If I had to park in the sun all day so I could use solar cells for electricity, I'd give up RVing. That just doesn't suit me at all. I'm a "park in the shade" kind of guy -- even in when shopping at places that trees around the edges of their parking lots. You are sounding more and more ridiculous with this toot you're on. But keep it up -- many of us are finding some perverse amusement here. GB in NC > What would you recommend as a replacement for "propane" (LPG)? Electricity. At least for those that don't dry camp. When I bought my trailer a couple years ago few came with lpg ovens. Apparently there was a single part common to almost all RV ovens that was in short supply hence no ovens available in new RV's. They replaced the lpg oven with a electric convection/microwave oven and most people seemed to be happy with the increased counter and cabinet space. My dealers view was that few people dry camp. Now even though lpg ovens are available they stock quite a few trailers with convection ovens instead based on high demand for them. That wouldnt work for me so I kept my search up and found a dealer with the trailer I wanted with an lpg oven since I do dry camp. >> What would you recommend as a replacement for "propane" (LPG)? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > That wouldnt work for me so I kept my search up and found a dealer with > the trailer I wanted with an lpg oven since I do dry camp. I thought my question would make it clear (replacement) that I was referring to some means to eliminate LPG. You response suggests a substitute for a portion of the RVers. So whatever safety hazard is present with LPG still exists for those who use it. If LPG is as dangerous as "Harry" submits, I'm asking what might be a complete replacement. oso > I thought my question would make it clear (replacement) that I was referring > to some means to eliminate LPG. > You response suggests a substitute for a portion of the RVers. So whatever > safety hazard is present with LPG still exists for those who use it. > If LPG is as dangerous as "Harry" submits, I'm asking what might be a > complete replacement. I was being more practical. Meaning a substitute thats already available for those that want it. Its a growing trend lately with more RV's coming out with electric ovens etc. >> snipped >>> (Yanking hair out in big clumps!) Google them BOTH then. Now add [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > oso Electricity is safer. Electricity is cheaper. Electricity is better. Electricity is cleaner. It should be mandated that RVs be all-electric. Everything that gas does, electricity can do better. You can even produce your own electricity by using a generator and even better yet installing a photovoltaic array on the rooftop. A couple extra batteries and an inverter will give you electricity even when there's no hook up available. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Well at least I got a few relevant/helpful responses. Thanks. Harry, you can carry on with your riduculous rants (I'd call them trolls) about the horrors of LPG. I'm outta here. I see where "Harry Harris" <harris@thehilltopcafe.notagoodaddy> contributed: >Electricity is safer. Electricity is cheaper. Electricity is better. >Electricity is cleaner. It should be mandated that RVs be all-electric. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and an inverter will give you electricity even when there's no hook up >available. Ya know, Harry, even though we designed our last MH to be all-electric (there are SOME advantages for the type of rv travel we enjoyed, you are still an uninformed moron. To improve my reading pleasure, you are invited to join Shad O'Shea in my twit filter. <plonk> Will "A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow Man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money." G. Gordon Liddy > You can even > produce your own electricity by using a generator Oh great. Now the sound of dozens of generators running at the same time all day and night. Besides, generators aren't exactly clean running. >Electricity is safer. Electricity is cheaper. Electricity is better. >Electricity is cleaner. It should be mandated that RVs be all-electric. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Harry Harris Would you care to regale us with tales of RV deaths caused by properly working LP water heaters. I know there have been some, but I am certain you have an exact count. You run the mouth, you provide the proof. >>>>>> You sidestepped my question. Please read it again. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Harry Harris Hey, Harry, Don't fight this battle. You cannot win, nor can the others. Just go and do your own thing. Jeez. John Andrews, you know where... >> But that's not an answer to my question, which was "You seem to be >> saying that LP gas is not safe compared to gasoline. Care to elaborate?" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Harry Harris Harry, you seem to be forgetting that he already HAS an LP water heater installed- a standard 6 gallon tank LP RV unit. Already has the LP lines in place. He just wants to know if anyone has installed a tankless LP unit. > Harry, you seem to be forgetting that he already HAS an LP water heater > installed- a standard 6 gallon tank LP RV unit. Already has the LP lines > in place. He just wants to know if anyone has installed a tankless LP > unit. Am I missing something here? Doesn't an LP unit require a vessel to heat the water in? I would think that heat transfer in a unit with an electric rod might take place a little more efficiently than an LP unit. Is there such a thing as a LP on demand heater that will supply warm/hot water that fast? Don't know. Just asking. Steve Steve B wrote:... Am I missing something here? Doesn't an LP unit require a vessel to heat the water in? I would think that heat transfer in a unit with an electric rod might take place a little more efficiently than an LP unit. Is there such a thing as a LP on demand heater that will supply warm/hot water that fast Don't know. Just asking.<<<<<<<<< Even with a regular water heater, LP has a MUCH faster recovery rate than electric. The on demand units heat the water as it passes through the water heater. It has a little radiator inside it and the flame comes up through the fins and heats the water very fast. I have a 117 BTU unit that will supply hot water for as long as you leave the faucet on. I have the temp. turned down because at the high setting, it will scald you. They make a 250 BTU unit that will supply 2 showers at the same time. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) Jerry, Who made this unit? Is it satisfactory? Can it make any advantage of shore power? Matt Colie > Steve B wrote:... Am I missing something here? Doesn't an LP unit require a > vessel to [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I have the temp. turned down because at the high setting, it will scald you. > They make a 250 BTU unit that will supply 2 showers at the same time. Matt Colie wrote: Jerry, Who made this unit? Is it satisfactory? Can it make any advantage of shore power? Mine is an old Bosch125 and it has a pilot light. I see where the new ones somehow ignite the propane without electric or a pilot light. I have no idea how they do that. It is more than satisfactory. I can't say enough good things about it. You can turn on the hot water and come back 2 days later and there will still be hot water coming out. You can't beat it if you have a wife and 3-4 kids who all want to shower at the same time. It works equally as well for 1 person because it never comes on until needed. Mine uses a 5" chimney, which is no problem in a house. I see the new ones can be vented out the side but I see a problem if you need a exhaust diffuser, which may stick up too far. It uses no electric so shore power is of no use to it. They do make a power vent for them but you would need power every time you used the heater. This would work in a house but wouldn't be practical in an RV. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) On Sun, 6 May 2007 12:10:38 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: >You can't beat it if you have a wife and 3-4 kids who all want to shower at >the same time. 'Scuse me, but that sounds kinda kinky. And crowded too. GB in NC > On Sun, 6 May 2007 12:10:38 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" > <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > GB in NC Get your mind out of the gutter you old pervert! :-) You know what he meant. He didn't say take a shower together. At the same time can mean one right after the other. That's what I took it to mean, at least. Besides, how many RV showers can fit four or five people in them at a time? But, I have to wonder what this fetish for 20-minute showers is all about. Seems rather wasteful and extravagant to me. If you can't shower yourself clean in five minutes or less, you're doing something wrong. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> 'Scuse me, but that sounds kinda kinky. And crowded too. >> >> GB in NC >You know what he meant. He didn't say take a shower together. At the >same time can mean one right after the other. No, that may be what he meant, but that's not what he said. "At the same time" CLEARLY means "simultaneously," not "successively." Look up those two words and you'll see what I mean. Go ahead. I'll wait.... ............ (Finished yet?) >Besides, how many RV showers can fit four or five people >in them at a time? He said he has that shower at his home, not in his RV. Read his post again, more slowly. I have a couple of showers in my house that could conceivably hold an adult and several kids at once (although still crowded). Also, with a total of five showers in my main house and two more in the the guest house, we could in fact accommodate that many people and more, all showering at the same time -- although I doubt it will ever happen. GB in NC >> On Sun, 6 May 2007 12:10:38 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" >> <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Harry Harris I have a "large" body. :-) (6'3", 220 lbs) I might be able to get clean in 5 minutes (never timed it) but I like to rinse the soap off. oso >>> On Sun, 6 May 2007 12:10:38 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" >>> <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > oso What's happened to people over the last ten years or so? It seems to me people have gotten stupider and stupider. The RIGHT way to take a shower is to get in the stall, and shower for a bout a minute until you're wet all over. Then turn off the water and soap yourself up and scrub yourself all over with a scrub brush, luffa, or wash cloth. Then when you're all scrubbed and soaped up, rinse off. Any individual, any size can get squeaky clean in five minutes or less water usage time. Do it because of the water shortages that exist many places if for no other reasons. People who stand in the shower and try to soap up with the shower running might as well be trying to drink a beer with their mouth shut. Duh! Neither one will work too well. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >The RIGHT way to take a shower is to ><snip> First you tell us we need to get rid of LP on our RVs because it's dangerous. Now you're telling us the "RIGHT" way to take showers. Do you have some kind of nanny complex, or what? Sheesh. You're making quite a name for yourself here. GB in NC >>The RIGHT way to take a shower is to >><snip> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > GB in NC Yes, and he apparently thinks all showers are 24" x 24". Oh, GB you forgot to tell him what kind of name he is making for himself here! <g> Ron >>>The RIGHT way to take a shower is to >>><snip> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ron Friggin a.shole comes to mind <g>. Hugh >>>>The RIGHT way to take a shower is to >>>><snip> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Friggin a.shole comes to mind <g>. > Hugh Welcome to my bozo bin. PLONK! Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> The RIGHT way to take a shower is to >> <snip> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > GB in NC I think we have another Oz in the making or by now, already made. ;-) Mickey >>>> On Sun, 6 May 2007 12:10:38 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" >>>> <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Harry Harris And only do that once a week? Where you from, Alabama or Mississippi? Or maybe ex-navy? Or both? oso >>>>> On Sun, 6 May 2007 12:10:38 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" >>>>> <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > Mississippi? Or maybe ex-navy? Or both? > oso I never said anything about once a week showers. I take a bath or shower every day myself. But, I try not to waste water. I can get totally clean in five minutes. Maybe Americans are going to have to get used to the idea that there's water shortages in many parts of the country. Waste not, want not, ya know. See, five-minute showers not only save water but they save gas or electricity whichever you use to heat your shower water. Being extravagant with 20-minute showers is wasteful of both. Al Gore and Sheryl Crow wouldn't approve. Sheryl Crow even wants people to only use one little square of toilet paper per toilet visit. Now, I'd say that's a bit on the extreme side but so are 20-minute showers but in the other direction. Just my opinion. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >See, five-minute showers not only save water but they save gas or >electricity whichever you use to heat your shower water. You mean <gasp> some people use GAS to heat their shower water? Isn't that dangerous? GB in NC Hey, I was wondering if u could explain how the heat exchanger works off of the engine, for hot water. What do ya need to do?.. Sounds like a good idea.... Thanks..... I see where quadatv@webtv.net (motorhead) contributed: >Hey, I was wondering if u could explain how the heat exchanger works off >of the engine, for hot water. What do ya need to do?.. Sounds like a >good idea.... Thanks..... You could always do what I did - buy a marine WH from West Marine and plumb it into your vehice's coolant loop. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill Motor, It plumbs into the cab heater circuit. Just get to T's (available from most full line autoparts stores and and an arm load of heater hose. There is a coil in the tank. So, now you have more choices where you get the heat from. Matt Colie > Hey, I was wondering if u could explain how the heat exchanger works off > of the engine, for hot water. What do ya need to do?.. Sounds like a > good idea.... Thanks..... | > On Sun, 6 May 2007 12:10:38 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" | > <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] | about. Seems rather wasteful and extravagant to me. If you can't shower | yourself clean in five minutes or less, you're doing something wrong. Think Skunk. >> Harry, you seem to be forgetting that he already HAS an LP water >> heater installed- a standard 6 gallon tank LP RV unit. Already has [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Steve Yup, got one and use it in both the RV and my place in northern idaho (lots of power outages so propane is a better bet than ac) > Yup, got one and use it in both the RV and my place in northern idaho (lots > of power outages so propane is a better bet than ac) Whats the purpose of an on-demand in a typical RV? Every trailer I've owned heats the water in its tank in about 10 minutes. I never leave the water heater on. Just turn in on as needed. I suppose in a mega huge RV with a large water heater tank this might not be true. >> Yup, got one and use it in both the RV and my place in northern idaho >> (lots of power outages so propane is a better bet than ac) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I suppose in a mega huge RV with a large water heater tank this might > not be true. We have the gas/electric 6 gallon and it's on electric all the time we're hooked up. I just flip on the gas so we have enough hot water for two showers. I like to soak my sore back and shoulder in the AM, gets me going for the day. At $.091/kw we only used about $37 for electric a month. Hugh >> Yup, got one and use it in both the RV and my place in northern >> idaho (lots of power outages so propane is a better bet than ac) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I suppose in a mega huge RV with a large water heater tank this might > not be true. Note the location - Northern Idaho, cuts way down on the propane use when you only heat water when you need it rather than 24/7.. And of course, we only ran out of propane when there was a major snowstorm and the roads were closed so we couldn't get any more.. :( Actually, one of the rv's we had, was a unit from northern Canada, with a wood stove in it, not very handy for heating water for showers, but considering we were in millions of acres of woods, all you need is an ax for heat/cooking/light/etc no matter what the weather outside was like.... Was really comfy inside when it was nasty outside... Did provide us with an idea to build a wood burning water heater/hot tub on our deck at home > Note the location - Northern Idaho, cuts way down on the propane use when > you only heat water when you need it rather than 24/7.. And of course, we > only ran out of propane when there was a major snowstorm and the roads were > closed so we couldn't get any more.. :( But why would you run water heat 24/7? Every trailer I've owned will heat its tank up in about 10-15 minutes tops. I turn it on in the morning and by the time my coffee is ready the water heater has already shut off. After our showers I turn the heater off. snipped > But why would you run water heat 24/7? snipped If it's an electric/gas heater, why not. When we're home we don't turn off the gas water heater and have hot water any time we want it. Hugh > > But why would you run water heat 24/7? >If it's an electric/gas heater, why not. When we're home we don't turn >off the gas water heater and have hot water any time we want it. I'm with you, Hugh. My home water heater -- a 40-gallon <gasp! danger!> LP gas unit -- is so well insulated that when I put my hand on it I don't feel any heat at all. That implies that it doesn't take very much energy to keep the water hot all the time. But what I want to know about these tankless water heaters is what happens when you open a faucet 30' (or whatever distance) from the unit -- and all you want is enough hot water to wash your hands or put a small amount into a pot to cook something on the stove. 99% of the time when we want hot water it's in small amounts like that. Normally, there are only two of us here, and we each take one shower a day. The rest of our hot water usage is in small bursts like I described above. I don't doubt the usefulness of a tankless system in providing a large amount of hot water over a sustained period of time -- such as for a shower. But that's not our most frequent need, and having that immensely powerful burner unit come on for a pint or two of water -- and then end up leaving most of the heated water in the line to get cold again -- would drive me absolutely nuts. GB in NC GBinNC wrote:...and having that immensely powerful burner unit come on for a pint or two of water -- and then end up leaving most of the heated water in the line to get cold again -- would drive me absolutely nuts. Didn't you say you have a recirculating loop in your water heater so you have hot water almost instantly ? Have you ever thought of how much LP gas that requires ? You are constantly adding cool water to your tank and the gas has to come on to heat it. The way to do a ranch home would be to have 2 Bosch tankless water heaters. With the power vent, you can locate them anywhere so if you put one under the kitchen sink and 1 under where you shower, then you would have instant hot water at both places and it would be much cheaper. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) On Mon, 7 May 2007 11:39:10 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: >GBinNC wrote:...and having that immensely powerful burner unit come on for a >pint or two of water -- > and then end up leaving most of the heated water in the line to get cold >again -- would drive me absolutely nuts. >Didn't you say you have a recirculating loop in your water heater so you >have hot water almost instantly ? (You have an excellent memory.) I do, in my new house, which is almost completed. >Have you ever thought of how much LP gas that requires ? Sure. Very little. The small circulation pump is thermostatically controlled and will come on only when the water at the pump (at the water heater, the end of the loop) drops below a certain temperature. It will come on just long enough to fill the loop (100' or so of piping) with hot water from the water heater -- replacing that water with the very warm (just not quite "hot") water still in from the loop. And since the entire loop is insulated, that won't happen very often. The result is that every faucet in the house will have hot water constantly available within 4' or less of the faucet -- without the need for a point-of-use water heater at every location. (There are 4.5 bathrooms, plus two sinks in the kitchen, plus an outdoor shower.) The pump also has a timer on it, so it won't come on at all during the night while everybody's asleep (the water will still be warm enough to wash hands after visiting the toilet, or whatever). It also has a convenient "off" switch which will be turned off when we leave the house for a day or longer, to keep it from circulating hot water when there's no need. And of course, while someone is running hot water continuously -- as in taking a shower -- the hot water to that point will be pulled on its own from the water heater, so the recirculating pump will come on (if needed) just long enough to keep the water hot in the rest of the loop from there forward. >You are constantly adding cool water to your tank and the gas has to come on >to heat it. Not *cool* water -- *very warm* water, just a few degrees below what's already in the tank. Remember, all the "replacement water" is in an insulated loop inside the insulated walls of the house. >The way to do a ranch home would be to have 2 Bosch tankless water heaters. >With the power vent, you can locate them anywhere so if you put one under >the kitchen sink and 1 under where you shower, then you would have instant >hot water at both places and it would be much cheaper. (You're forgetting that I have eight hot-water use points, including five showers.) The burner (and now a power vent, too!) would still have to come on when I turn on the hot water for fifteen seconds of handwashing or to put a small amount in a pot. You apparently haven't considered the cost for the additional gas piping and electrical service to each of eight locations -- plus the cost of the power vents and the electricity to run them. I appreciate your well-meaning suggestions, but I believe that for my purposes and my setup that this is the best -- and overall, the most energy-efficient -- method of providing almost-instant (and continuous when needed) hot water at eight spread-out locations in a fairly large, three-story house with only one water heat source. And besides, since it's already done, it's a moot point. Or as some folks here say, a "mute" point -- which I guess means we don't need to talk about it <g>. GB in NC > On Mon, 7 May 2007 11:39:10 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" > <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > GB in NC We lived in an apartment building once that had recirculating hot water service. It was really nice to turn on the hot water and get hot water without waiting. In our present house, the water heater is at one end of the house and the bathrooms are at the other end. The only place where I get instant hot water is in the sink in the garage! John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee "John Andrews" | In our present house, the water heater is at one end of the | house and the bathrooms are at the other end. The only place [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | | John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee There is a very small ciculating pump that fits between the hot and cold line at the bath room. I think it's set at 85 degrees and it will pull from the hot line and back feed to the cold to keep the temp at the hot at 85. We had one at our place in Dallas for the bath at the far end of the house. Worked fine and I was almost tempted to take it with me but was too busy to bother. >> I appreciate your well-meaning suggestions, but I believe that for my >> purposes and my setup that this is the best -- and overall, the most [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> GB in NC >We lived in an apartment building once that had recirculating >hot water service. It was really nice to turn on the hot water [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >house and the bathrooms are at the other end. The only place >where I get instant hot water is in the sink in the garage! Which is why I'm doing what I'm doing in my new house. I can't stand waiting for hot water, for a variety of reasons.... GB in NC GBinNC wrote........ (You're forgetting that I have eight hot-water use points, including five showers.) FIVE showers !!!! Are you building a home or a Hotel ?? <g> SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) On Tue, 8 May 2007 19:25:55 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: >GBinNC wrote........ (You're forgetting that I have eight hot-water use >points, including five showers.) >FIVE showers !!!! >Are you building a home or a Hotel ?? <g> Hey! My wife and I need a lot of space. Actually, while we're not a hotel, we have company so often that we've come to refer to ourselves as "a B&B without the money." For some reason, folks like to come and spend weekends here. Even with just the carriagehouse (three bedrooms, two baths), we've had a dozen people here for the weekend on numerous occasions. Fortunately, some of them bring their RVs and use our campsites with hookups.... GB in NC > On Tue, 8 May 2007 19:25:55 -0400, "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" > <jerryd@wherever.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > GB in NC I can understand that. One of my favorite places to camp is in my own back yard. It's safe and it's quiet and there isn't the expense and danger of going out on the road dealing with high fuel prices, heavy traffic, tolls and accidents and expensive campgrounds. Not only that but there's no down time spent driving. I've installed my own hook-ups for electricity, cable TV, sewer and water. If I piss the old lady off and I'm in the doghouse, I've got one fine little doghouse to go to. It's a good life all and all. Even have a nice paver patio to park next to with charcoal (not propane) grill and lawn furniture. It's practically heaven. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> Fortunately, some of them bring their RVs and use our campsites with >> hookups.... >> >> GB in NC >I can understand that. One of my favorite places to camp is in my own >back yard. Well, I don't know that I'd bother to camp here, since I live here and have a bedroom and bathroom and all that goes with it. But it does help when we have a crowd coming and a couple of the families can bring RVs to make more room. Once we get into the big house, space won't be as critical. We'll have six guest bedrooms total -- one of which is outfitted for sleeping four kids at a time (for some reason, all our most frequent guests' kids are girls, which makes accommodations easier to deal with). But we are adding another RV spot with hookups (this new one is in a big carport), so if some people want to bring RVs we can handle an even bigger crowd. >Even have a nice paver patio to park next >to with charcoal (not propane) grill I'm so relieved to learn that. Propane is just too dangerous to use. All us RVers are getting rid of ours ASAP. Right, folks? Uh -- right? Uh, folks? GB in NC >>> Fortunately, some of them bring their RVs and use our campsites with >>> hookups.... [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > GB in NC I have a propane grill. One year at the beginning of the summer season, I lit the grill to do some hamburgers. I was met with a ball of flame and flames shooting out of the hose from the tank to the burners. Seems a squirrel had lunched on the hose over the winter. It is a good idea to watch the rubber hoses on all these propane systems. They don't last as long as the black iron pipe used to distribute the propane to the appliances. (Code, you know.) I have a charcoal barbecue too, but that one scares me. CO is really toxic and a charcoal fire gives off lots of it. Best to all, even Harry. John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee Now I have to install a cable hookup to get even. I have a propane grill. One year at the beginning of the summer season, I lit the grill to do some hamburgers. I was met with a ball of flame and flames shooting out of the hose from the tank to the burners. Seems a squirrel had lunched on the hose over the winter. It is a good idea to watch the rubber hoses on all these propane systems. I just had to replace the hose on my gas grill because squirrels had chewed through it. I also bought a piece of heater hose which I slipped over the gas hose so the squirrels will have 2 hoses to chew through before it leaks. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) | >> Fortunately, some of them bring their RVs and use our campsites with | >> hookups.... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] | | Uh, folks? Why get rid of Propane ... it makes the insurance claims so much easier. > But we are > adding another RV spot with hookups (this new one is in a big carport), > so if some people want to bring RVs we can handle an even bigger crowd. Mine requires 13' clearance. SignatureFrank Tabor Green light in A.M. for new projects. Red light in P.M. for traffic tickets. >> But we are >> adding another RV spot with hookups (this new one is in a big carport), >> so if some people want to bring RVs we can handle an even bigger crowd. >Mine requires 13' clearance. The carport has about 10.5". You'll have to use the original campsite, in the edge of the woods.... GB in NC >>> But we are >>> adding another RV spot with hookups (this new one is in a big [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > GB in NC Not a problem. I just hope that something, (a rig), as long as I am can make the turns. SignatureFrank Tabor Things will be bright in P.M. A cop will shine a light in your face. >> The carport has about 10.5". You'll have to use the original campsite, >> in the edge of the woods.... >> >> GB in NC >Not a problem. I just hope that something, (a rig), as long as I am can >make the turns. Hmmm. Maybe not. Hunter did it, but it was close in a couple of spots. The big site is level and 45' long, but getting into it could be a problem.... GB in NC > But what I want to know about these tankless water heaters is what > happens when you open a faucet 30' (or whatever distance) from the unit > -- and all you want is enough hot water to wash your hands or put a > small amount into a pot to cook something on the stove. For home use, being 30' from a water heater -- whether a tank or on demand -- unless your pipes are incredibly well insulated you're going to have a delay in getting hot water, especially if you haven't used it for a while. The benefits of virtually endless hot water are limited only by one's imagination: rinsing your car with warm water on a cold day, power washing your house/sidewalks/etc with hot water, etc etc. For an RV, we decided to get an on demand unit based on reviews from existing owners, which has been universally positive. The few comments from actual owners of these units in this thread (e.g. "I wish I would have had one of these years ago.") are the norm, while negative reviews are rare. >> But what I want to know about these tankless water heaters is what >> happens when you open a faucet 30' (or whatever distance) from the unit >> -- and all you want is enough hot water to wash your hands or put a >> small amount into a pot to cook something on the stove. >For home use, being 30' from a water heater -- whether a tank or >on demand -- unless your pipes are incredibly well insulated you're >going to have a delay in getting hot water, especially if you haven't >used it for a while. Suggest you read my long post to Jerry and then get back to me. GB in NC > I don't doubt the usefulness of a tankless system in providing a large > amount of hot water over a sustained period of time -- such as for a > shower. But that's not our most frequent need, and having that immensely > powerful burner unit come on for a pint or two of water -- and then end > up leaving most of the heated water in the line to get cold again -- > would drive me absolutely nuts. Yeah, but that is the SAME state of mind and thinking that would cause one to switch a system off-and-on as needed. When one runs JUST enough water down the drain to get the JUST RIGHT warm water for a quick hand washing, there is water that will turn cold in the pipes whether it was supplied from a storage tank or tankless heater. If one hopes to save substantial money, I don't think tankless technology is where it's at. It's a GREAT technology (modern car washes use tankless) but still not serious competition for the embedded, time-tested technology that is a hat water tank. Many new apartment complexes use a complicated and sophisticated system of heating water that employs a large storage tank for 6-8, one-and-two bedroom units. I believe a tankless water heater would be of greatest appeal to those whose utility space is minimal - that wish to employ the floor space for something other than a large tank. Installation of a utility sink, for example, comes to mind, in a spot vacated by a hot water tank - replaced by a tankless system on the wall. Signature:) JR > If it's an electric/gas heater, why not. When we're home we don't turn > off the gas water heater and have hot water any time we want it. Huge difference. At home my water heater takes a couple hours to heat the tank up. In my RV it takes 10-15 minutes. At home I won't run out of electricity or gas. In my RV I can easily run out of propane. >> If it's an electric/gas heater, why not. When we're home we don't turn >> off the gas water heater and have hot water any time we want it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > At home I won't run out of electricity or gas. In my RV I can easily > run out of propane. Hokay, I'll presume you didn't get the part where we're hooked up to electric. If you think I'm going to wait 10 to 15 minutes to get warm water to wash hands after using the bathroom or waiting 10 to 15 minutes to get warm water when we come back from the pool and want to shower off the chlorine, you're nuts. When we are "camping" with full hookups, the rv is our home. I can fully understand someone turning off the heater when dry camping but once hooked to shore power a gas electric heater most likely will be left on in the electric mode. Hugh - who likes hot water > Hokay, I'll presume you didn't get the part where we're hooked up to > electric. No, I got that part. You asked me why I would shut my water heater off. I told you...because I have a propane ONLY water heater. > If you think I'm going to wait 10 to 15 minutes to get warm > water to wash hands after using the bathroom or waiting 10 to 15 minutes > to get warm water when we come back from the pool and want to shower off > the chlorine, you're nuts. I don't need hot water to wash my hands. Use soap! If you're going to the pool then flip it on when you leave. > When we are "camping" with full hookups, the > rv is our home. I can fully understand someone turning off the heater > when dry camping but once hooked to shore power a gas electric heater > most likely will be left on in the electric mode. One more time, I do not have an electric water heater. >> Hokay, I'll presume you didn't get the part where we're hooked up to >> electric. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > One more time, I do not have an electric water heater. And this is our falut? <g> Ron > "miles" <nope@nopers.com> wrote in message >> One more time, I do not have an electric water heater. > > And this is our falut? <g> Falut? Is that some sort of musical instrument? I don't have one of those in my trailer either! <g> >> Hokay, I'll presume you didn't get the part where we're hooked up to >> electric. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > One more time, I do not have an electric water heater. So why don't you install a Hott Rod element? The only time you pay for electric service when in a campground is when you pay by the month. There is a model for most water heaters and will return your investment in probably one season of camping. Many rv'rs with gas only heaters have them installed. <http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-water-heaters/hott-rod-water-heater.htm> And, did you notice I "said"; "once hooked to shore power a gas electric heater"? Hugh >> One more time, I do not have an electric water heater. >So why don't you install a Hott Rod element? The only time you pay for >electric service when in a campground is when you pay by the month. >There is a model for most water heaters and will return your investment >in probably one season of camping. Many rv'rs with gas only heaters have >them installed. I second that notion. That was one of the first accessories I put on our van when we first got it. I've used it for 8+ years so far and absolutely wouldn't be without it. I always preheat the water on 110v before we leave the house on any trip, including day trips. Takes less than a half hour and stays hot/warm all day. GB in NC |
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