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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / May 2007

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Cascading Transfer Switches

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Dan Listermann - 08 May 2007 16:04 GMT
I am going to move my shore power cord from the storage bay to a large
cavity under the bath sink. It will let me have a longer cord and open up
space in the bay. I have an inverter and a generator. In doing this, I will
need at least one transfer switch to allow the shore cord to take over from
the inverter or generator outlets. I thought that it might be nice to add a
second switch that would automatically switch to the generator from the
inverter. If I do this correctly, the shore cord would trump the generator
and inverter. The second switch would cut out the inverter when the
generator is on.

Any experience out there?
Jonathan King - 08 May 2007 17:35 GMT
In general it is not a good idea to cascade switches under load as the
switches may not switch at exactly the same time. For instance, the shore
power may be momentarily connected to the inverter. Since they are not in
phase each source could be at its peak voltage of opposite polarity from the
other. Larges currents will flow and usually the power station beats the
inverter every time and your switches could get damaged from the high
currents. I would recommend a switch that switches between the 3
simultaneously, you need a "three pole" switch (technically a 6 pole if you
want the neutrals isolated from one another). This item may be of interest:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/10001/-1/10001/12645
5/10001/294/124/9


Hope it helps!
Dan Listermann - 08 May 2007 19:26 GMT
An interesting concern, but it should never happen unless one were to try to
operate more than one power mode at the same time.  Aside from a stupid
accident ( I am human ) I don't see where this is very likely.

> In general it is not a good idea to cascade switches under load as the
> switches may not switch at exactly the same time. For instance, the shore
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Hope it helps!
Matt Colie - 09 May 2007 00:10 GMT
Dan,

Lots - This is what I do for a living, but mostly for boats (same-same).
(Would you be surprised if I told you that I get to rewire a few of
these every year?)

First a question:
Are you thinking of a manual or an automatic transfer?
Little matter - connection is the same.
< As I was writing this up - This suddenly got interesting.>
<If you have a Xantrex inverter-charger and 50amp three wire feed this
is going to get interesting.  In fact, I'm going to have to think about
this a few days.>

Next:
Most good (big) inverters have an automatic transfer built in.

If yours does not, you will need two transfer switches.
The first one selects between shore power and the generator and the
second selects between the output of the first and the inverter.

You you know if your unit is two wire or three wire?  (Is the main
breaker in the AC box one pole or two?)
Most 50amp RVs are actually three wire (this is actually 230v<115+115>).
      That is why that big assed plug has four pins
(HotL1-HotL2-Neutral-Ground)
Most generators are two wire.
Nearly all inverters are are two wire.

As all of your wiring is "isolated" you are going to want to switch the
neutral also.

Dan, I'm stalled here until I know more about your equipment.
Is the unit actually Three Wire.
Is the Generator Two or Three Wire?
Who made the inverter you are using?

We can figure this out.  There are more than a few blue water cruisers
out there with a couple or four 8D, an 8KVA diesel genset and a shore
power cable (but 50amp three wire is rare in the marinas).

Come back and tell me something.

Matt Colie

> I am going to move my shore power cord from the storage bay to a large
> cavity under the bath sink. It will let me have a longer cord and open up
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Any experience out there?
Dan Listermann - 09 May 2007 14:32 GMT
The unit is 30 amp which makes things simple.

The inverter is a cheap one with all that means to it.

I intend to use the inverter far more often than the generator.

I thought that the shore power would be connected to the NO contacts of the
first switch with the generator on those contacts with the second.  This way
the shore power trumps everything and the generator trumping the inverter.
The inverter would always be connected through the NC contacts.

Dan

> Dan,
>
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>>
>> Any experience out there?
Matt Colie - 10 May 2007 00:41 GMT
OK - Dan,

> The unit is 30 amp which makes things simple.

Every 30 amp I've seen had been 2 wire. That makes thing much simpler.

> The inverter is a cheap one with all that means to it.
Means it probably does not have a transfer switch in it.

> I intend to use the inverter far more often than the generator.
That really doesn't matter.

> I thought that the shore power would be connected to the NO contacts of the
> first switch with the generator on those contacts with the second.
There aren't really NO and NC contacts.  There are default and energized
 contacts on automatic transfers and you have to really sure which is
which.   On a manual switch, there is common and positions 1 & 2.

Common is always down stream (for lack of a better word), so the load
can only select one supply.  That way you can never set switches to
inadvertently power up an unused source.

So - Common of switch 1 is connected to the main panels feed.
Position 1 of Switch 1 is connected to the inverter output(*).
Position 2 of Switch 1 is connected to the common of Switch 2.
Position 1 of Switch 2 is connected to the generator output.
Position 2 of Switch 2 is connected to the shore power cable.
Position 1 is default for an automatic transfer switch
> This way  the shore power trumps everything and the generator trumping the inverter.
Ok - You got it.

> The inverter would always be connected through the NC contacts.
>
> Dan
* If you are really slick, you can figure out how to make this switch
turn on the inverter and shut down your converter/charger.
Sometimes for owners with an inverter only (not inverter/charger), I add
a single breaker box for the shore power charger(s) at the common of
switch 2.  That way the generator or shore can charge batteries.

If you have any doubt is the hardware selected will suffice, send me the
link and I will read about it and offer an opinion.

Good Luck Guy

Matt Colie (aka Yachtsman's Technical Support)
Dan Listermann - 10 May 2007 14:21 GMT
> * If you are really slick, you can figure out how to make this switch turn
> on the inverter and shut down your converter/charger.
> Sometimes for owners with an inverter only (not inverter/charger), I add a
> single breaker box for the shore power charger(s) at the common of switch
> 2.  That way the generator or shore can charge batteries.

I have already done this with a relay from Radio Shack.  A toggle switch on
the control panel actuates the 12V relay.  The NO contacts are wired in
parallel with the inverters on/off switch.  The NC contacts interrupt the
110V line to the converter.
 
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