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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / July 2007hybrid/ultralight opinions
I just took my last long camping trip in my Coleman pop-up. The setup/breakdown effort is more than I'm willing to go through. We'll still take weekend trips until we dispose of it, but I'm looking for something easier. I don't want to give up (entirely) the sense of space created by the screens on my camper. The fold out beds on a hybrid provide some of that. They also don't take up interior space, open or closed. My general range of interest is probably a hybrid in the 19'-23' range, most likely 19'-21'. Compared to my 12' Mesa, that's a 75%-100% increase in interior space, assuming the beds fold out on the exterior. I'm towing with a Durango Hemi, so weight isn't an issue in that class. TV:trailer length ratio may be. Whatever the case, I ask that respondents not take this thread down the "how much can you tow" road. What I need is info/opinions on different brands offering products in that range. We're a married couple with one middle school kid and one high school kid, of opposite sex. They each may bring a friend on a trip, or adult relatives may join us. We need 3 separate beds, preferably real adult size and also preferably not requiring conversion of the dining table. With a dog kennel in the Durango, storage space in the TV is minimal. Most gear must fit in the trailer. The GVWR specs for Starcraft Antigua hybrids suggest heavy duty axles. (http://www.antiguarv.com/antigua_expandables_specifications.html) As much as I admire that, I don't think I need that much payload in addition to the trailer. Also, getting 3 permanent beds in an Antigua requires a side-opening bunk. Some camp sites are tight, meaning we can't assume that's always possible. The Aerolite Cub 210DB (http://www.aerocoachinc.com/scripts/images/17363.jpg) looks like it would fit our sleeping needs. I slight disadvantage is that getting to the front bunk requires climbing over the dinette. The specs say it has 4840# GVWR and a 1650# cargo capacity. That sounds pretty generous. I get the impression these are a little pricey. Is that valid? I'm in no rush. Just looking for tips and links. I appreciate all well-intended suggestions and observations.  SignatureChris Cowles Gainesville, FL '00 Coleman Mesa '05 Durango Hemi >I'm towing with a Durango Hemi, so weight isn't an issue in that >class. TV:trailer length ratio may be. Whatever the case, I ask that >respondents not take this thread down the "how much can you tow" road. >What I need is info/opinions on different brands offering products in >that range. We have a 2004 Durango Hemi 4x4 and 3:55 axle ratio. We tow a 2004 Starcraft Travelstar 21SSO which is the same as the Antigua 215SSO just different trims. It has a dry weight of 3800lbs and GVWR of 5000lbs. The Durango tows is very well and we live in mountainous terrain. It's 21' long closed up. While this particular trailer won't meet your sleeping needs some of the other Antiguas or Travelstars might. The newer Starcraft StarStream hybrids may also work for you. The Durango Hemi would be able to handle up to 22' and 5500lbs loaded and be fine for mountainous regions. Since you live in Florida where its flat then up to 6,000lbs loaded should be fine. The wheelbase of the Durango would limit the trailers length. We have towed our trailer several 1000 miles over dozens of trips and love it! > We have a 2004 Durango Hemi 4x4 and 3:55 axle ratio. We tow a 2004 > Starcraft Travelstar 21SSO which is the same as the Antigua 215SSO just > different trims. By 'trim' do you mean cosmetic only? Or is there a 'quality' difference? SignatureChris Cowles Gainesville, FL > We tow a 2004 Starcraft Travelstar 21SSO Other than floor plan, do you recall differences between the one you chose and the ones you didn't? In general, which manufacturers might be less desirable? Why? >> We tow a 2004 Starcraft Travelstar 21SSO > > Other than floor plan, do you recall differences between the one you chose and the ones you didn't? In general, which manufacturers might be less desirable? Why? We looked at Shamrock, Fleetwood, Jayco, Roo, Aerolite and a few others. The only two we really liked were Jayco and Starcraft. The other brands seemed cheaply made and too many warranty complaints from others. I will say that Starcraft fully honors their warranty without question. They even did several minor repairs after the warranty had expired. All issues we had were very minor and quickly taken care of. I have also read good things about Jayco and their quality seemed very good at the models we looked at. Of Starcraft and Jayco it came down to the better floorplan for us. The Travelstar/Antigua 21SSO has a very large slideout that really opens the trailer up for considerable roominess. > We looked at Shamrock, Fleetwood, Jayco, Roo, Aerolite and a few others. It can never be said that you aren't doing your homework. Sheesh! :) > The only two we really liked were Jayco and Starcraft. > I will say that Starcraft fully honors their warranty without > question. They even did several minor repairs after the warranty had > expired. All issues we had were very minor and quickly taken care of. We put thirteen years on our bought-new, 1987 Starcraft Galaxy popup. It sounds as if their customer service is as good "now" as it was then. I would buy another Starcraft again. I bought my current trailer due only to the close proximity and good reputation of a local dealership. I might have done better sticking with Starcraft although our Skamper has been OK. If you have a good dealer of either Jayco or Starcraft, I would go with either brand. As for rain intrusion of a hybrid during setup/takedown, I wouldn't give that consideration much weight. We used the living daylights out of our popup and only took down wet a few times; only once in a truly driving rain. Nothing was damaged as it's always necessary to setup at home upon returning so it will dry anyway. Quality? I am truly skeptical that there IS such a thing with any "entry level" camper whether it's a popup, hybrid or conventional travel trailer. It is the things we've added to our TT, such as leveling jacks and TurboMax vent fan (among others) that make it nicer. The trailer has been beset by typical, annoying things such as cheap trim that falls off, drawers that don't work smoothly and other, cheap-related things. Of course, maintenance is critical. IIRC, you will be pulling whatever you get with a Hemi Durango. You are wise to restrict the length of the trailer but I wouldn't get to carried away in that regard. Overall weight and, more importantly, frontal area wind resistance are bigger concerns. The Hemi should overcome those nicely. My best advice: Be prepared for a DRASTIC increase in fuel consumption. Plan on 8-9 MPG. It's a world of difference when stepping "up" to a full-height travel trailer from a popup. However, the convenience of stopping at a rest area to use the on-board toilet or refrigerator are MAJOR compensations for the increased CO$T of towing. At times, I miss the popup. Mrs. MacWidow (Leslie, my wife) has never looked back. Have fun and be sure to keep us up-to-date on your new adventure. Signature:) JR 2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT 2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000 > We looked at Shamrock, Fleetwood, Jayco, Roo, Aerolite and a few others. > The only two we really liked were Jayco and Starcraft. The other > brands seemed cheaply made and too many warranty complaints from others. Is your source of warranty complaint information here in this forum? Or elsewhere? >> We looked at Shamrock, Fleetwood, Jayco, Roo, Aerolite and a few others. >> The only two we really liked were Jayco and Starcraft. The other >> brands seemed cheaply made and too many warranty complaints from others. > > Is your source of warranty complaint information here in this forum? Or elsewhere? From talking with owners in several forums (rv.net etc) as well as people I know. The Roo is quite popular with most liking them. I just felt they were cheaply made. I see where some have opined that the LENGTH of a trailer is a factor limiting what you can tow. True. Very short trailers are slightly more susceptible to sway and are much harder to back. Extremely long trailers are hard to maneuver in tight CG's or city streets. But other than that, WEIGHT and FRONTAL AREA are the issues that matter to the tow vehicle. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > But other than that, WEIGHT and FRONTAL AREA are the issues that > matter to the tow vehicle. I intend to stay well below the weight capacity of my Durango, which is generous. I'm aware of affect of frontal area (wind resistance increases as a square of speed increase) and will consider that in my selection, as well. > I see where some have opined that the LENGTH of a trailer is a factor > limiting what you can tow. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > But other than that, WEIGHT and FRONTAL AREA are the issues that > matter to the tow vehicle. You missed my reasoning. Length is a major factor when purchasing a trailer. Too long of a trailer for a short wheelbase tow vehicle can be a death trap. A 30'+ trailer will shove a short wheelbase vehicle all over the highway. Length of trailer with regards to length of tow vehicle is every bit as important as weight. Possibly even more so. I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: Will: >> But other than that, WEIGHT and FRONTAL AREA are the issues that >> matter to the tow vehicle. m: >You missed my reasoning. Your "reasoning" (if any) is based on flawed perceptions. m: > . . . .Length is a major factor when purchasing a >trailer. Too long of a trailer for a short wheelbase tow vehicle can be >a death trap. A 30'+ trailer will shove a short wheelbase vehicle all >over the highway. Length of trailer with regards to length of tow >vehicle is every bit as important as weight. Possibly even more so. 50+ years of towing experience (as well as the laws of physics) says you are dead wrong. I say again: LENGTH is an insignificant factor. Certainly one should avoid short wheelbase tow vehicles like the plague - but it's _worse_ with a short trailer. Of course MOST 30' TT's are going to be too heavy for your Tracker - but is is WEIGHT and FRONTAL AREA that most affect the tow vehicle. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill snipped > 50+ years of towing experience (as well as the laws of physics) says > you are dead wrong. I say again: LENGTH is an insignificant factor. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Will Sill I don't know where Will is pulling this from but it can't be from his brain. A long trailer will push a short wheelbase vehicle around, the longer the trailer the more it will swing. Length is a significant factor. Chris knows what he's doing. He's using a vehicle with more than enough power to haul what he wants. He also knows he is best to stay at a relatively short length trailer to minimize towing concerns. From his posts it's obvious to any intelligent reader he has his ducks in a row. I've got +40 years of towing experience <g> and I know Will is dead wrong. A short wheelbase vehicle will tow a short trailer much better than it will tow a looong trailer. He has good advice on some things, this isn't one of his better choices. Carry on Chris, you have the right slant on the situation. Hugh ot +40 years of towing experience <g> and I know Will is dead > wrong. A short wheelbase vehicle will tow a short trailer much better > than it will tow a looong trailer. He has good advice on some things, > this isn't one of his better choices. Exactly. The Hemi Durango is a great tow vehicle but I prefer to limit it to 6,000lbs and 23' with proper setup. Where I live its rather mountainous so I tow 5,000lbs and 22' and it performs very well. No way would I put a 28'-30' trailer on my Durango even though theres a few light weight ones available. > [snip] > Chris knows what he's doing. He's using a vehicle with more than enough > power to haul what he wants. He also knows he is best to stay at a > relatively short length trailer to minimize towing concerns. I'm also staying with a shorter length trailer simply because I don't to own a larger one. SignatureChris Cowles Gainesville, FL > I'm also staying with a shorter length trailer simply because I don't to own a larger one. Thats why I went with a hybrid. Tons of room inside but a short trailer to tow. Its also nice to be able to pull off to the side of the road when towing for potty breaks! > Your "reasoning" (if any) is based on flawed perceptions. No Will. You seem to ignore the effects of TV wheelbase vs. trailer length or seem to think its a minor issue not to worry about. That thinking will put someone in danger all too often. > 50+ years of towing experience (as well as the laws of physics) says > you are dead wrong. I say again: LENGTH is an insignificant factor. Then you would be VERY wrong. > Certainly one should avoid short wheelbase tow vehicles like the > plague - but it's _worse_ with a short trailer. Of course MOST 30' > TT's are going to be too heavy for your Tracker - but is is WEIGHT and > FRONTAL AREA that most affect the tow vehicle. So you are telling me that a Hemi Durango with plenty of power can pull a lighter 30'+ trailer without trouble huh? Good grief Will, you're going to get someone in serious trouble!! Tell me Will. What happens when towing in high winds or when semi's pass? Length of trailer, TV wheelbase and trailer side profile makes no difference huh? Your 50 years of experience is worthless when you ignore basic laws of physics as you seem to mention. The side profile of a trailer is very important as is weight and frontal area. Stop recommending people to ignore trailer length with regards to TV wheelbase! I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed his POV: >You seem to ignore the effects of TV wheelbase vs. trailer >length or seem to think its a minor issue not to worry about. >That thinking will put someone in danger all too often. You have it backwards. I said trailer length is insignificant compared to weight and frontal area. Don't twist my words. Short wheelbase vehciles should not be used for towing, IMO. Even light utility trailers behind Jeeps are much less safe in terms of stability. >So you are telling me that a Hemi Durango with plenty of power can pull >a lighter 30'+ trailer without trouble huh? Good grief Will, you're >going to get someone in serious trouble!! I wrote what I wrote, NOT what you chose to think I meant. I do not endorse your incorrect interpretation. >Tell me Will. What happens when towing in high winds or when semi's >pass? Length of trailer, TV wheelbase and trailer side profile makes no [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >important as is weight and frontal area. Stop recommending people to >ignore trailer length with regards to TV wheelbase! ::sigh:: Instead of arguing with someone whose mind is made up, I will simply reiterate that I meant what I wrote. Let the reader decide whether your POV is valid. It has been my experience that the extra leverage due to ball-to-axle length on a long trailer more that offsets the additional thrust from lateral gusts. Regardless of tow vehicle wheelbase (shorter is always less stable, of course) short trailers are much more susceptible to swaying. Will Sill GILLETTE'S PRINCIPLE: "If you want to make people angry, lie. If you want to make them absolutely livid with rage, tell the truth." In my original post I asked that this thread not devolve into a TV:trailer weight/length argument. Everyone has opinions on this. It's an old and tired topic, never to be resolved here. I appreciate that everyone is replying in good faith, but can we limit my thread to discussions of the trailers themselves and not include discussions of appropriate tow vehicles? Thanks in advance. SignatureChris Cowles Gainesville, FL > In my original post I asked that this thread not devolve into a TV:trailer weight/length argument. Everyone has opinions on this. It's an old and tired topic, never to be resolved here. > > I appreciate that everyone is replying in good faith, but can we limit my thread to discussions of the trailers themselves and not include discussions of appropriate tow vehicles? > > Thanks in advance. I understand Chris. Problem is, Will seems to spew every time a "short wheelbase vehicle" is mentioned and rather than let his comments stand some feel he needs to be corrected so a newby doesn't get the wrong idea. I happen to be one of those "some" <g>. Hugh I see where "Chris Cowles" <NoSpam@ForMe.Net> contributed: >In my original post I asked that this thread not devolve into a TV:trailer weight/length argument. Everyone has opinions on this. It's an old and tired topic, never to be resolved here. > >I appreciate that everyone is replying in good faith, but can we limit my thread to discussions of the trailers themselves and not include discussions of appropriate tow vehicles? > >Thanks in advance. Chris, the job of net nanny had been taken for this group. It is not up to you to decide what happens to a thread, regardless of your sincere wishes. BTW - how about setting your line legth to something under 70? Will Sill - think about this: "A government big enough to give you everything you want is strong enough to take everything you have." Thomas Jefferson > BTW - how about setting your line legth to something under 70? What was that you said about Net Nanny? > In my original post I asked that this thread not devolve into a TV:trailer weight/length argument. Thats true. My comments were with regards to what the Hemi Durango can handle after towing with mine for 3 years. 23' and 6,000lbs or less is perfect for flat terrain regions, 5,000lbs for mountain regions. I love my Durango. One of the best TV's I've owned and perfect for my Starcraft hybrid. > You have it backwards. I said trailer length is insignificant > compared to weight and frontal area. Then you would be very wrong. Trailer length with respect to TV length is VERY significant. > Short wheelbase vehciles should not be used for towing, IMO. Even > light utility trailers behind Jeeps are much less safe in terms of > stability. Side profile of the trailer has much to do with the effect it will have on any TV. The longer the TV wheelbase the less prone it is to side forces applied to the trailer. >> So you are telling me that a Hemi Durango with plenty of power can pull >> a lighter 30'+ trailer without trouble huh? Good grief Will, you're >> going to get someone in serious trouble!! > > I wrote what I wrote, NOT what you chose to think I meant. I do not > endorse your incorrect interpretation. You stated length is insignificant and weight and frontal area is whats important. Sorry Will but length is VERY important. > It has been my experience that the extra leverage due to ball-to-axle > length on a long trailer more that offsets the additional thrust from > lateral gusts. Then you would be wrong. A long trailer will shove a short wheelbase TV all over the road even if the trailers weight is rather low. I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: > .. .A long trailer will shove a short wheelbase TV >all over the road even if the trailers weight is rather low. Writing nonsense over and over doesn't make it become true. Has it occurred to you that there is a good reason that virtually all the towing guides ignore length issues, and instead focus on weight and frontal area? Will Sill GILLETTE'S PRINCIPLE: "If you want to make people angry, lie. If you want to make them absolutely livid with rage, tell the truth." > Writing nonsense over and over doesn't make it become true. Yep so stop writing nonsense. You're very wrong Will. Shorter wheelbase vehicles can not handle longer trailers very well. Would love to see you tow a light 30'er with a V8 powered Jeep Cherokee in high winds with semi's passing. Let me know your region so I can check the papers for "Towing Idiot blown off road" headlines. I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: >> Writing nonsense over and over doesn't make it become true. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >winds with semi's passing. Let me know your region so I can check the >papers for "Towing Idiot blown off road" headlines. It doesn't bother me that you disagree. Lots of people do. What bothers me is your continual dishonest misrepresentation of my POV. FTR, I absolutely do NOT recommend towing with Jeeps. I don't recommend towing any trailer in "high winds" - with or without passing trucks. What I said is what I meant: the length of a trailer is an insignificant factor in towing, compared to weight and frontal area. I'm sorry you disagree, but that is your privelege. In most respects, long trailers handle BETTER than short ones - as experienced trailerists eventually learn. Instead of just repeating that I'm wrong, offer some evidence. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > I said is what I meant: the length of a trailer is an > insignificant factor in towing, compared to weight and frontal area. > I'm sorry you disagree, but that is your privelege. And that is precisely where you are wrong. Length of trailer with respect to length of TV is significant. > Instead of just repeating that I'm wrong, offer some evidence. Hmm..and what evidence do you offer other than your warped opinion? Fact remains that the longer the trailer the longer wheelbase TV you'll want to have. A long bed extended cab truck is not needed for a short trailer but it is highly desirable for a long trailer regardless of weight. My point is just that. The longer the trailer you wish to tow then the longer the TV's wheelbase should be. It's just as significant as weight and not insignificant. 51 years of experience is more than your 50!! Some reading for your entertainment even though you'll dispute it with more BS. http://www.rvtowingtips.com/how-long.htm >> I said is what I meant: the length of a trailer is an >> insignificant factor in towing, compared to weight and frontal area. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >http://www.rvtowingtips.com/how-long.htm I don't believe I have ever seen a warning on a trailer brochure stating that the tow vehicle must (should) have a wheelbase longer than XXX inches. Have you? > I don't believe I have ever seen a warning on a trailer brochure > stating that the tow vehicle must (should) have a wheelbase longer > than XXX inches. Have you? Nope. Theres quite a few guidelines published to help people make educated purchases though. All too often I see people try to tow a very long trailer with a short wheelbase SUV. Weight wise they are in their vehicles tow rating. I've also seen them off the side of the road blown over. But hey, since there was nothing in the brochure they can sue and become millionaires. >> I don't believe I have ever seen a warning on a trailer brochure >> stating that the tow vehicle must (should) have a wheelbase longer [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >over. But hey, since there was nothing in the brochure they can sue and >become millionaires. And as an attorney, I can guarantee that were that to happen just once, the brochure WOULD have that warning. Why do you think they put warnings not to use in a shower on hair dryers? Perhaps the fact that such warnings are NOT shown indicates their lack of concern about the short wheel base tow vehicles. Hmmmm?? >> I said is what I meant: the length of a trailer is an insignificant >> factor in towing, compared to weight and frontal area. I'm sorry you [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > http://www.rvtowingtips.com/how-long.htm Let me interject this, if you think that length is so significant, then show where any truck, or car for that matter, prescribes a max length of a trailer in it's towing specifications. I've never seen it. Not to defend Will, damn this hurts, but all the towing specs I've read are very specific about the weight and frontal area of the towed apparatus. But no mention of the length. You can even go to Trailer Life magazine and see all the makers specs in one document, and none there have a length spec either. SignatureFrank Tabor Q: What do monsters eat? A: Things. Q: What do monsters drink? A: Coke. (Because Things go better with Coke.) > Let me interject this, if you think that length is so significant, then > show where any truck, or car for that matter, prescribes a max length of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Life magazine and see all the makers specs in one document, and none > there have a length spec either. Trailerlife, Motorhome Magazine and others have all had articles discussing trailer length with respect to tow vehicles wheelbase. A short wheelbase SUV can easily handle a short trailer. Keeping within the weight capabilities of the TV it appears Will thinks a 30' trailer will be no problem and possibly would tow better because longer trailers are less prone to sway according to him. He then goes on to say that short wheelbase SUV's, Jeeps etc. should never be used to tow but does not explain why. I know why. Their short wheelbase allows them to spin like a top with high lateral forces from a long trailer. >> Let me interject this, if you think that length is so significant, then >> show where any truck, or car for that matter, prescribes a max length [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Trailerlife, Motorhome Magazine and others have all had articles > discussing trailer length with respect to tow vehicles wheelbase. Snipped the Artful Dodging of my question. You dodged my question. What specs specify a max length? None of those authors are GM, Ford, Chrysler, Dodge, or Toyota engineers. I only referenced Trailer Life because they are a convenient consolidated source of the towing specs. SignatureFrank Tabor Your depth of comprehension may tend to make you lax in worldly ways. > You dodged my question. What specs specify a max length? None of those > authors are GM, Ford, Chrysler, Dodge, or Toyota engineers. I only > referenced Trailer Life because they are a convenient consolidated source > of the towing specs. Just what is your point that you are trying to make? Trailer Life has run articles discussing tow vehicle wheelbase as well. Are you saying the same thing as Will that wheelbase and trailer length are insignificant issues? Or are you just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing? What is your point you wish to make? >> You dodged my question. What specs specify a max length? None of >> those authors are GM, Ford, Chrysler, Dodge, or Toyota engineers. I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > insignificant issues? Or are you just wanting to argue for the sake of > arguing? What is your point you wish to make? The point is, that you are belaboring something that is not figured into the towing specs at all. The length of a trailer is not even considered in the tow ratings of any manufacturer. Can you show me where any manufacturer takes the length of a trailer into consideration for the towing capacity? All the specs specifically regulate the weight and frontal area, not one single one has any restriction on length. As Will has said, the length of a trailer is insignificant with respect to the effects of weight and frontal area. SignatureFrank Tabor Many a woman hasn't realized that she was raped until the check bounced. > The point is, that you are belaboring something that is not figured into > the towing specs at all. The length of a trailer is not even considered > in the tow ratings of any manufacturer. Never said it was. Now what is the issue you are trying to discuss here? Or do you just wish to argue? If you have an opinion to as to the effects of TV wheelbase and trailer length then by all means state it. >> The point is, that you are belaboring something that is not figured >> into the towing specs at all. The length of a trailer is not even [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the effects of TV wheelbase and trailer length then by all means state > it. I have an opinion, all right. but you don't want to hear it. >> The point is, that you are belaboring something that is not figured >> into the towing specs at all. The length of a trailer is not even >> considered in the tow ratings of any manufacturer. A 10' trailer that weighs 10,000 lbs is too much for a Jeep. A 30' trailer that weighs 10,000 lbs is too much for a Jeep. Dispute that. Where does length figure in? SignatureFrank Tabor Q: Why did the programmer call his mother long distance? A: Because that was her name. > I have an opinion, all right. but you don't want to hear it. In otherwords you just want to bitch, rant and argue for the sake of arguing. Predictable. > A 10' trailer that weighs 10,000 lbs is too much for a Jeep. A 30' > trailer that weighs 10,000 lbs is too much for a Jeep. Dispute that. > Where does length figure in? WTF are you talking about here? When within weight ratings of a tow vehicle length is significant. But thats already been stated in this thread...go back and re-read then return to just to argue some more! Hmm....30' trailers are 10,000lbs or more only? How many 10' trailers are 10,000lbs? Good grief. Ok Frank, Which would tow better with a Jeep Commander Hemi? A 29' 5400lb trailer (EX. Jayco 29X) or a 22' 5400lb trailer (Ex. Nash 22M)? >> I have an opinion, all right. but you don't want to hear it. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Ok Frank, Which would tow better with a Jeep Commander Hemi? A 29' > 5400lb trailer (EX. Jayco 29X) or a 22' 5400lb trailer (Ex. Nash 22M)? If and when you ever get your head outta wherever it's stuck, get back with me. The way you carry on, it's obvious you've never really towed anything more than a lawnmower on a utility trailer. Buh bye. > If and when you ever get your head outta wherever it's stuck, get back > with me. The way you carry on, it's obvious you've never really towed > anything more than a lawnmower on a utility trailer. Buh bye. Oh now thats funny! Figured you just wanted to whine! Some peoples kids! > Trailer Life has run articles discussing tow vehicle wheelbase as well. > Are you saying the same thing as Will that wheelbase and trailer length > are insignificant issues? Admittedly, without reviewing WAAAAY back, I recall the basic disagreement was the tendency to sway with a shorter vs longer trailer. Yes, the "short" wheelbase tow vehicle was a common factor. TL magazine has always recommended a LONGER wheelbase TV, but I recall it was due to ride quality and avoidance of "bucking" along certain highways caused by equally-spaced cross seams in the paved surface. I do NOT recall any claim that TV wheelbase and trailer length are "insignificant" issues - only that they are interpretation LESS significant than other factors (my interpretation). Given that (and it obviously will not be taken by some as "given"), if the tow vehicle has a sufficient tow rating, I would not let the wheelbase be a significant factor in determining trailer length. I recall the OP's TV was a Durango with the Hemi mill. That should be rated to tow just about any hybrid out there. I expect it would do just as well with the longest of them. That's a "big" SUV. Signature:) JR > I do NOT recall any claim that TV wheelbase and trailer length are > "insignificant" issues - only that they are interpretation LESS significant > than other factors (my interpretation). Will stated that TV wheelbase with regards to trailer length was insignificant compared to weight and frontal area. All are significant factors when shopping or a TV and/or trailer. > Given that (and it obviously will not be taken by some as "given"), if the tow > vehicle has a sufficient tow rating, I would not let the wheelbase be a > significant factor in determining trailer length. My Hemi Durango has an 8,000lb tow rating. I would not want to put even a 6500lb 30' trailer behind it and drive I10 between Phoenix and L.A. with the high number of semi's passing along with frequent winds. > I recall the OP's TV was a Durango with the Hemi mill. That should be rated > to tow just about any hybrid out there. I expect it would do just as well > with the longest of them. That's a "big" SUV. It's got power but it's wheelbase is short and for me it is a significant factor. The 2004+ Durango while larger than the 2003- Durango's is still much shorter and narrower than a Suburban or Yukon XL. A long trailer behind the latter tows much nicer than behind the Durango. I have tried both combinations. > Given that (and it obviously will not be taken by some as "given"), if the tow > vehicle has a sufficient tow rating, I would not let the wheelbase be a > significant factor in determining trailer length. > I recall the OP's TV was a Durango with the Hemi mill. That should be rated > to tow just about any hybrid out there. I expect it would do just as well > with the longest of them. That's a "big" SUV. Would you want to try towing a 30' 8000' Trailer with the rather short wheelbase Hemi Durango (8200lb tow rating)? No thanks. I have a Hemi Durango. I know what it can and can't do. 30' regardless of weight is no fun with a Durango. > I recall the OP's TV was a Durango with the Hemi mill. That should be > rated > to tow just about any hybrid out there. I expect it would do just as > well > with the longest of them. That's a "big" SUV. Correct in terms of power. We chose it because it had sufficient power to tow the smaller trailer we envisioned buying, sufficient interior space to schlep teenagers around town, but was not so monstrous as the full size SUVs such as a 'burb or Expedition. It's a micro-van, compared to your truck. <smile> > Correct in terms of power. We chose it because it had sufficient power to > tow the smaller trailer we envisioned buying, sufficient interior space to > schlep teenagers around town, but was not so monstrous as the full size > SUVs such as a 'burb or Expedition. Same reason we bought our Durango. We wanted something capable of pulling a decent sized hybrid but did not want a full sized mega SUV. The Durango has been great. We often meet up with other family members and their RV's and then use our Durango for day trips where it seats 6 comfortably. Just a really great vehicle. > Same reason we bought our Durango. We wanted something capable of > pulling a decent sized hybrid but did not want a full sized mega SUV. > The Durango has been great. We often meet up with other family members > and their RV's and then use our Durango for day trips where it seats 6 > comfortably. Just a really great vehicle. I was surprised by the gas mileage on this last trip, our first long-distance trip towing the camper with the Durango. (We've been on shorter trips, but not one of length that provided valid numbers.) 16MPG at a steady 65MPH, towing 3000#. That's Gainesville, FL to Corbin, KY, through Chattanooga. That's mostly flat, then a little bit of grade up I-75 from Chattanooga to KY. Even so, it's better than some might expect from a Hemi. I average 14+ MPG around town, according to the trip computer. SignatureChris Cowles Gainesville, FL > I was surprised by the gas mileage on this last trip, our first > long-distance trip towing the camper with the Durango. (We've been on > shorter trips, but not one of length that provided valid numbers.) 16MPG > at a steady 65MPH, towing 3000#. That's Gainesville, FL to Corbin, KY, > through Chattanooga. With our 5000lb trailer we average 10-14mpg depending on terrain. The Hemi is sensitive to speed. While I don't suggest towing at 70mph I'd expect your mpg to drop down towards 12 with just a 5mph increase. When not towing its been averaging 16mpg city and 19mpg highway. Thats better than my 2001 Ram 1500 5.9L and the Hemi is MUCH stronger. > [Durango with the Hemi is] a micro-van, compared to your truck. <smile> Hehehehe! :) After 5-1/2-years driving The S.S. GhettoCruiser II (my pickup), I still like it and have learned something unexpected: I *LOVE* the 8-ft box. Had I special ordered the Silverado as originally planned, I would've gotten the "short" (6-1/2-ft) box. I bought my truck off the lot with the long box and have been glad for its length several times. It already takes "40 acres" to turn this rig around - it's two feet LONGER than a Suburban. I suspect that the shorter box wouldn't make THAT much difference in that regard. Signature:) JR 2000 Skamper Ultra 249 TT 2002 Chevrolet Silverado 2500HD Vortec 8100 - Allison 1000 >> You dodged my question. What specs specify a max length? None of those >> authors are GM, Ford, Chrysler, Dodge, or Toyota engineers. I only [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >insignificant issues? Or are you just wanting to argue for the sake of >arguing? What is your point you wish to make? You are the one arguing. Will made a statement and you dispute it without one shred of proof. In fact, the lack of evidence to the contrary goes a great deal to verify his claim. I don't know the absolutes but i do know what manufacturers would do were they to have even a glint of liability in an accident situation. See my previous post. Dean > You are the one arguing. Will made a statement and you dispute it > without one shred of proof. I showed data to support my claim whether you read it or agreed with it or not, it is there by numerous sources. Now where is yours and Wills statistical or some study that shows length is of no significance with regard to a TV's wheelbase? Oh ya, there is none...and thats your PROOF. Too funny! I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> seems to be the only one continuing to argue that a long trailer is somehow harder to tow that a short one, and seems to think length is as important as weight and frontal area. He rants: >I showed data to support my claim whether you read it or agreed with it >or not, it is there by numerous sources. Now where is yours and Wills >statistical or some study that shows length is of no significance with >regard to a TV's wheelbase? Oh ya, there is none...and thats your >PROOF. Too funny! In the first place nobody has claimed "no significance" - only that length is _insignificant_ compared to other issues. As to your "data" from "numerous sources", it's actually more minority opinions and not in any way supported by actual testing. This is the cyberspace age, and almost any cockamamie idea can be "proved" by googling for some nut who agrees with you. But truth is not determined by digging for opinions on the net, but by physical reality. (Example: look up opinions on changing brake fluid!!) Worrying about the length issue is simply foolish - especially when "miles" thinks sway isn't an issue. Frontal area is mainly a power issue - many a tow vehicle has overheated or cooked a transmission trying to maintain speed against a headwind because his particular choice of tow vehicle had the wrong gearing (for example). Weight is the biggest issue, not just because it affects acceleration and hill climbing, but because of its huge impact on stopping ability. Perhaps equally important, ANY trailer can sway for a number of reasons, and when a heavy trailer sways it is much more likely to cause the combination to crash. As I wrote earlier, tow vehicle overhang is critical as well - it is well known that the fifth wheel setup is the most stable exactly because that configuration provides the least unwanted steering force. Bottom line: don't bother to worry about relating trailer length to tow vehicle wheelbase. Instead, stay well under the recommended max WEIGHT and FRONTAL AREA for a safe, comfortable trip. Avoid towing with Jeeps anyway. The battle for Iraq is OVER. We won decisively.The war against Islaamic Jihadists rages on. Is the razor-thin Democrat majority gonna help the fight or sabotage it? Will Sill > I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> seems to be the only one > continuing to argue that a long trailer is somehow harder to tow that > a short one, and seems to think length is as important as weight and > frontal area. He rants: You still arguing Will? Several here have pointed out the same thing I have. Fine Will, go ahead and tow that 30' 7,000lb trailer with a short wheelbase SUV such as a Hemi Durango. You'll be fine since it'll be within the weight and frontal area ratings. Could you do us a favor and list the routes you'll be towing so others can keep clear and safe? I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: >You still arguing Will? Several here have pointed out the same thing I >have. Fine Will, go ahead and tow that 30' 7,000lb trailer with a short >wheelbase SUV such as a Hemi Durango. You'll be fine since it'll be >within the weight and frontal area ratings. Could you do us a favor and >list the routes you'll be towing so others can keep clear and safe? "miles", you're really annoying when you attribute to me ideas I have NEVER advocated. I frankly think 7k with a Durango ("Hemi" or not) is too much for comfort & safety - even if you unload enough stuff to be within the GCWR. For years I've recommended that people don't exceed 75% of tow ratings anyway, and have never recommended the Durango for towing anything bigger than the lighter pop-ups. I believe trailer _length_ is not a big deal. Since you've already expressed a contrary opinion ad nauseum, do you REALLY think that repeating your opinion incessantly will make it a fact? Or that you'll convince me and all the makers publishing tow limits to start agreeing with you? Just curious about what you hope to accomplih. BTW, as a [retired] Safety Engineer, I'm as concerned as anyone about towing safety. If I thought there was merit to your POV, I'd happily say so - but I'm sure you're obsessing over an issue that is 'way down the list of issues that matter to safe towing. (My oft-published list follows) ================================= It is my firmly-held opinion that - on average - manufacturers' maximum tow ratings are optimistic and presume near-ideal conditions and a fair amount of operator skill. I continue to recommend that people buying equipment to tow (or be towed) try to stay well *under* the maximum. I like a 75% target, on the basis that it provides a safety/reliability/comfort cushion for steep grades, bad roads, and emergency maneuvers. Consider these reasons for a 75% recomendtion: There is pretty general agreement that it is unwise and possibly dangerous to EXCEED maximum ratings, but many of us with long trailering experience have found that tow rating information is often misleading - or at least not applicable to everyone. 1. The tow rating is ALWAYS a maximum figure, and is as large as the manufacturer dares make it. They hope you will buy their stuff for towing. Their rating may or may not be right for you. Every maker has his own methods of setting tow ratings. Some are conservative and some are ludicrously over-stated (many Jeep Cherokees were rated at 5,000 lbs, and IMO are hopelessly overloaded at that figure). 2. MOST tow ratings (nothing personal or specific vs your brand) do not allow for long steep grades - up or (especially) down. 3. Most tow ratings make no allowance for bad road conditions. 4. Most tow ratings are accompanied by asterisks that call attention to special equipment "required". Your rig may not have those features. 5. Most tow ratings make no allowance whatever for emergency maneuvers. I assure you your vehicle WILL NOT turn or stop as fast or as safely with the maximum load as it will with a lot less. The difference can be dramatic. Don't believe me? Try a few tactics in a large parking lot. 6. Vehicle tow ratings make no allowance for the DRIVER'S "tow rating". No insult intended, but if you have to ask how much your rig will tow, you have neither the experience or the knowledge to handle the maximum load safely. IMO. 7. One of the most-overlooked factors in safe towing is a COMBINED maximum (GCWR = Gross Combined Weight Rating, often only found in a towing guide) that dictates a much lighter-than-maximum TOWED load. Most of the weight of cargo & passengers in the tow vehicle must be deducted from the permissible towed load to find the true rating. Some towing guides appear to gloss over this issue because the marketing types want to put the best possible face on their product. 8. What is reasonably safe and comfortable at 45 mph may well be a lethal weapon at 75. Tow ratings, IMO, do NOT reflect any respect for this hazard. 9. An internal combustion engine loses about 2 1/2 to 3% efficiency per thousand feet. You can easily lose 15-18% in the mountains unless you have a turbocharger or supercharger. 10. Regardless of weight ratings, SUV's and "1/2'-ton" pickups are mostly useless for serious towing. They will handle pop-ups and even some of the short "lite" trailers - and will haul yer big one out to the lake if you are careful. But competent handling of a large TT requires a long wheelbase & short overhang. Someone once wrote: "You can tow anything with anything - the question is how far, how safely?" BOTTOM LINE: IF you trust the experienced trailerists who have been there and done that and don't want to go back, you will not exceed about 75% of the rated maximum. The number is of course not writ by the finger of God on a stone tablet - it is merely an indication that you should stay well below the manufacturer's maximum allowance if you want a safe, comfortable trip. Some say the figure ought to be as low as 50 or 60%. But except for a few macho braggarts, most experienced folks agree in principle if not detail with these concerns. For example, go to http://www.popuptimes.com/archives/ruleofthumb.asp ======================= Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > "miles", you're really annoying when you attribute to me ideas I have > NEVER advocated. I frankly think 7k with a Durango ("Hemi" or not) is > too much for comfort & safety - even if you unload enough stuff to be > within the GCWR. Now we're getting somewhere! Ratings do not mean much to you as you decide on your own what is or isn't safe. Whats ironic is that you don't own a Hemi Durango and therefore have little first hand knowledge of its capabilities yet you can decide what it can handle. > For years I've recommended that people don't exceed > 75% of tow ratings anyway Show me where that is specified in the tow vehicles manufactures specifications. Oh ya, like guidelines for trailer length, its not there! > and have never recommended the Durango for > towing anything bigger than the lighter pop-ups. Lighter popups eh? Then you Will have no clue as to the abilities of the 2nd generation Durango. So for any trailer bigger than the lighter popups we need a full sized truck? Good grief! > I believe trailer > _length_ is not a big deal. Since you've already expressed a > contrary opinion ad nauseum, do you REALLY think that repeating your > opinion incessantly will make it a fact? Hmm...do you feel that repeating your wrong opinion will make it a fact? Mines backed up by numerous guideline studies and articles of which I posted some. What do you have to support your flawed OPINION? > BTW, as a [retired] Safety Engineer, I'm as concerned as anyone about > towing safety. Oh here we go with the ever popular usenet qualifications that make you better than others. 50 years of towing and a retired safety engineer. Whoopie! I am a current engineer specializing in force technology. Automotive and Trailer manufactures are both major customers. Whoopie!! > Consider these reasons for a 75% recomendtion: I agree with your 75% recommendation. So what? I also recommend keeping within the guidelines I already posted for trailer length with regards to TV wheelbase. You disagree. Whoopie! > They will handle pop-ups and even > some of the short "lite" trailers Hmm...thought you said trailer length is of little concern? Now you suggest that SUV's and 1/2 tons will handle SHORT lite trailers? Make up your mind Will. snipped > Hmm...thought you said trailer length is of little concern? Now you > suggest that SUV's and 1/2 tons will handle SHORT lite trailers? Make > up your mind Will. Will has me "plonked" so he can't see me blow his bs away <g>. He'd crap his shorts if he saw me traveling the Pennsy stretch of I-81 towing our 29'11" HR Alumascape trailer complete with a superslide. Our tow vehicle is a Hemi equipped '03 Dodge Ram 1500 quad cab, short box. We towed the trailer from central NY to central FL four times and back three times. The trailer is resting at the campground due to high gas prices. At no time has my spouse gripped the dashboard in terror and at no time have I felt the need for more truck. Will is so far behind the curve he's looking at his butt. Hugh > Will has me "plonked" so he can't see me blow his bs away <g>. He'd crap > his shorts if he saw me traveling the Pennsy stretch of I-81 towing our > 29'11" HR Alumascape trailer complete with a superslide. Our tow vehicle > is a Hemi equipped '03 Dodge Ram 1500 quad cab, That seems a bit much of a trailer for a Ram 1500. Hows it handle in moderate winds or semis passing? What type of hitch system do you have? I towed a much smaller trailer with my 2001 Ram 1500 QC. It did all right but really didn't handle all that great. Just too soft of a suspension and weak frame perhaps. My 2004 Durango handles the same trailer far better. I believe the 2003 Ram 1500's and 2004+ Durangos have similar suspensions and frames. > Will has me "plonked" so he can't see me blow his bs away <g>. He'd crap > his shorts if he saw me traveling the Pennsy stretch of I-81 towing our > 29'11" HR Alumascape trailer complete with a superslide. Our tow vehicle > is a Hemi equipped '03 Dodge Ram 1500 quad cab, That seems a bit much of a trailer for a Ram 1500. Hows it handle in moderate winds or semis passing? What type of hitch system do you have? I towed a much smaller trailer with my 2001 Ram 1500 QC. It did all right but really didn't handle all that great. Just too soft of a suspension and weak frame perhaps. My 2004 Durango handles the same trailer far better. I believe the 2003 Ram 1500's and 2004+ Durangos have similar suspensions and frames. >> Will has me "plonked" so he can't see me blow his bs away <g>. He'd >> crap his shorts if he saw me traveling the Pennsy stretch of I-81 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > trailer far better. I believe the 2003 Ram 1500's and 2004+ Durangos > have similar suspensions and frames. It tows very well. We had an '02 Sierra 1500 club cab before and it didn't do very well. It handled our former '88 26' HR Alumalite with ease but when we bought our current trailer it was too much for it. I knew it was going to be but SWMBO had to have the newer trailer <g>. The Dodge is the replacement for it. The hitch weight is right around 1,000 lbs and it handles that well with no add on help. The '03 Dodge suspension is much heavier than the '02 Sierra was. One additional rear leaf per side and real heavy duty shocks made a huge difference. That and the Hemi engine plus the 5sp transmission make for a nice towing platform. The 1500 is at its limit with our trailer yet I couldn't ask for a better towing rig. I've got a Reese twin cam hitch and one friction bar installed. The rear axle ratio is the higher geared 3.55. The 3.91 would have been a better choice but this truck was there and the deal was too good. I had to have the dealer install the tow package and wound up with the transmission cooler for the 2500. The package includes a heavy duty fan, transmission cooler, hitch platform and wiring. The tow package was put on the warranty so it's like the truck came with it. Hugh > Not to defend Will, damn this hurts I'll bet. > but all the towing specs I've read are very specific about the weight > and frontal area of the towed apparatus. But no mention of the length. I wonder if the claim of improved towing stability of a longer trailer compared to a shorter trailer, towed by the same (short wheelbase) tow vehicle, when exposed to lateral forces, is related to the (generally accepted) claim that backing a shorter trailer is more difficult than a longer one. I'm envisioning a lever and fulcrum, then equating the distance from the hitch ball to the trailer axle to that function, and the claim that a LONGER trailer would exert LESS lateral force on the hitch than a shorter trailer begins to make sense - to me. Given that I flunked high school geometry AGES ago, this is worth what you paid for it. <bg> Then again, if we all got a [drum roll] Hensley Arrow hitch, we could tow a 38-footer with a moped. Flame on... Signature:) JR I see where Jim Redelfs <jim.redelfs@NOSPAMredelfs.com> contributed: >I'm envisioning a lever and fulcrum, then equating the distance from the hitch >ball to the trailer axle to that function, and the claim that a LONGER trailer [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Given that I flunked high school geometry AGES ago, this is worth what you >paid for it. <bg> Nice to see that some understand basic geometry. You don't even need to pass all the tests to grasp that much. Jim gets a B+ for this one. "miles" seems intent on relating trailer length to the wheelbase of the tow vehicle, yet the tendency for a trailer to push the tow vehicle around is much MORE effected by tow vehicle wheelbase vs overhang (rear axle to ball distance). My experience also bears out what is obvious on paper: long trailers (of a given weight) exert less lateral force on the tow vehicle because the greater 'tongue length' (ball to trailer axle distance) gives a leverage advantage to the tow vehicle. Nasty crosswinds are always a problem with any large trailer, and short-wheelbase tow vehicles are inherently troublesome for towing. But it will be a rare case indeed when trailer length matters as much as weight and frontal area. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill > "miles" seems intent on relating trailer length to the wheelbase of > the tow vehicle, yet the tendency for a trailer to push the tow > vehicle around is much MORE effected by tow vehicle wheelbase vs > overhang (rear axle to ball distance). Tell me Will. Is this why semi trucks often flip over in high winds? They're the longest trailer on the road and the hitch is over the axle. You seem to be stuck on the concept of sway when thats not the issue. You seem intent on ignoring the fact that a large side profile exerts higher lateral forces in winds or when semi's pass. A longer wheelbase TV will handle a great lateral force than a short wheelbase vehicle. >> "miles" seems intent on relating trailer length to the wheelbase of >> the tow vehicle, yet the tendency for a trailer to push the tow [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > higher lateral forces in winds or when semi's pass. A longer wheelbase > TV will handle a great lateral force than a short wheelbase vehicle. It's best when pundits are in the "FU and your proof" mode to just let 'em go. You can't reason with them anyway, they won't have it, so just cut them loose and go on to other issues. I know, you know and anyone else who has towed many different length trailers with many different wheelbase vehicles that length of trailer does mean something. The chart (which came from rv.org); Wheelbase Length Wheelbase Length 110" 20' 150" 30' 114" 21' 154" 31' 118" 22' 158" 32' 122" 23' 162" 33' 126" 24' 166" 34' 130" 25' 170" 35' 134" 26' 174" 36' 138" 27' 178" 37' 142" 28' 182" 38' 146" 29' 186" 39' (This guideline was first used by the RV Consumers Group (rv.org).)" ...clearly shows the relationship of wheelbase/length and "safe" towing. I don't understand what the pundits are arguing about. Hugh - puzzled by the responses by some >> "miles" seems intent on relating trailer length to the wheelbase of >> the tow vehicle, yet the tendency for a trailer to push the tow [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >higher lateral forces in winds or when semi's pass. A longer wheelbase >TV will handle a great lateral force than a short wheelbase vehicle. Trailers tip over in wind when the wind force overcomes the tip resistance. No sway involved. Rebalance the weight load to lower the COG and the trailer won't tip. s tip over in wind when the wind force overcomes the tip > resistance. No sway involved. Rebalance the weight load to lower the > COG and the trailer won't tip. Sway isn't the issue really. Even if the trailer isn't moving off center it can still exert lateral forces to the rear of the TV. > I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > GILLETTE'S PRINCIPLE: "If you want to make people angry, lie. If you > want to make them absolutely livid with rage, tell the truth." I don't know about most towing guides, but I do know that JD Gallant has, or had, a formula he published concerning trailer length and tow vehicle wheel base. I no longer have his material, but my recollection is he had what he considered a 'mimimum' safe wheel base for towing a trailer of up to X feet. and added something like 3" of wheelbase for every X feet beyond that. Maybe someone who has his info can check this. SignatureOwen McKenzie Very funny Scotty, now beam up my clothes. > [snip] > I no longer have his material, but my recollection is he had what > he considered a 'mimimum' safe wheel base for towing a trailer of > up to X feet. and added something like 3" of wheelbase for every X > feet beyond that. Similar information is available here: http://www.rvtowingtips.com/how-long.htm and referred to in another post on this thread. The author of that page disclaims writing it, so the author you refer to may be the original source. SignatureChris Cowles Gainesville, FL >>I see where miles <nope@nopers.com> contributed: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > and added something like 3" of wheelbase for every X feet beyond that. > Maybe someone who has his info can check this. Miles posted this link; <http://www.rvtowingtips.com/how-long.htm> which has the table. Will is just being Will. He can't stand anyone being right. Hugh > Regardless of tow vehicle wheelbase (shorter is always > less stable, of course) short trailers are much more susceptible to > swaying. Sway isn't the issue. A proper setup will prevent sway. The lateral forces will push both the trailer and TV off the road without sway being any issue at all. The longer the trailer the more lateral force will be applied. The exception being with a flatbed that lacks a large side profile. The 2nd trailer you listed only has 2 adult sized beds with the rear bed somewhat small. The other is a kids bunk bed. There are numerous hybrids with bunks but the only way to get 3 adult sized beds is with the side fold out. This should be able to fit into most campgrounds without trouble. Our Starcraft has a large slideout which has never been a problem anywhere we've camped. In the tighter spots we have not been able to use our awning though. I just took my last long camping trip in my Coleman pop-up. The setup/breakdown effort is more than I'm willing to go through. We'll still take weekend trips until we dispose of it, but I'm looking for something easier. I don't want to give up (entirely) the sense of space created by the screens on my camper. The fold out beds on a hybrid provide some of that. They also don't take up interior space, open or closed. My general range of interest is probably a hybrid in the 19'-23' range, most likely 19'-21'. Compared to my 12' Mesa, that's a 75%-100% increase in interior space, assuming the beds fold out on the exterior. I'm towing with a Durango Hemi, so weight isn't an issue in that class. TV:trailer length ratio may be. Whatever the case, I ask that respondents not take this thread down the "how much can you tow" road. What I need is info/opinions on different brands offering products in that range. We're a married couple with one middle school kid and one high school kid, of opposite sex. They each may bring a friend on a trip, or adult relatives may join us. We need 3 separate beds, preferably real adult size and also preferably not requiring conversion of the dining table. With a dog kennel in the Durango, storage space in the TV is minimal. Most gear must fit in the trailer. ... I'm in no rush. Just looking for tips and links. I appreciate all well-intended suggestions and observations. SignatureI doubt that you will find a trailer meeting all of your requirements, but you might want to check TrailManor. That would address your setup concern. Click the following url and then click "Build a TrailManor" for floor plans- http://www.trailmanor.com/ Paul Johnson > I'm in no rush. Just looking for tips and links. I appreciate > all well-intended suggestions and observations. Just a suggestion Chris, have you checked out the Trailmanors? <http://www.trailmanor.com/> Hugh > Just a suggestion Chris, have you checked out the Trailmanors? "Paul Johnson" <thejohnsons@frontiernet.net> wrote in message news:7Z6hi.11236$B25.10708@news01.roc.ny... We have not looked since our recent decision to ditch the pop-up. On previous investigation, we were disappointed by the lack of upper storage space, inability to enter the trailer without raising the top, and the potential for rain intrusion during setup/takedown is still large. I did not mention the rain issue in my previous post, but it's a question for other hybrid owners: what is the risk of rain intrusion when closing the bunk ends? Are the edges of the tent permanently attached and sealed? Or are they more like my current pop-up, where the mattress is potentially exposed to rain? SignatureChris Cowles Gainesville, FL > Just a suggestion Chris, have you checked out the Trailmanors? I found they would be just as time consuming as a popup in setup. They have the same luggage storage problems as a popup where its common to pile things on the floor while towing. A hybrid provides the best of both worlds. Easy setup and the roominess and comfort of a traditional hard sided trailer. >> Just a suggestion Chris, have you checked out the Trailmanors? > I found they would be just as time consuming as a popup in setup. They > have the same luggage storage problems as a popup where its common to > pile things on the floor while towing. I watched a couple set-up their Trailmanor and was impressed. It was MUCH quicker than our popup. <http://www.trailmanor.com> I looked inside and was NOT impressed. They are too expensive for what you get. If I were truly interested in a "folding" trailer again, I would seriously consider a Hi-Lo. <http://www.hilotrailer.com> > A hybrid provides the best of both worlds. Easy setup and the roominess > and comfort of a traditional hard sided trailer. We were used to a "queen"-size bed in our Starcraft popup so we insisted on something with a similar-size bed. No hybrid had one. I believe they still don't. What have YOU found in that "department"? Signature:) JR "Jim Redelfs" <jim.redelfs@NOSPAMredelfs.com> wrote... > [trim] > We were used to a "queen"-size bed in our Starcraft popup so we insisted on > something with a similar-size bed. > [trim] I do want reasonable comfort, but we're not full-timers and neither my wife nor I are "big". Besides, proximity provides opportunity... I can be satisfied with a real double bed. I've seen dimensions that are close enough. SignatureChris Cowles Gainesville, FL > We were used to a "queen"-size bed in our Starcraft popup so we insisted on > something with a similar-size bed. No hybrid had one. I believe they still > don't. What have YOU found in that "department"? What Hybrids are you looking at? Our Starcraft has 2 queen beds. Very close to the size of the beds in our Coleman Shenendoah popup. "miles" <nope@nopers.com> wrote... > A hybrid provides the best of both worlds. Easy setup and the roominess > and comfort of a traditional hard sided trailer. I'm looking for lighter weight and a greater sense of openness than a hard-side trailer, the ability to simply open the door and walk in the trailer, and ease of setup. For our long trips with our popup, I don't even briefly consider short stops on the road, on the way to our destination. That's way too much hassle. With a hybrid, we can. We just got back from Cumberland Falls, KY. We stopped overnight in a motel in Chattanooga. Had I had been towing a hybrid, I would have stopped in Cloudland Canyon, GA for 2 nights, visited Lookout Mountain, and enjoyed the park more than the parking lot of the motel. Not having a hybrid, and having a dog, we stayed overnight in a motel and came straight back to Gainesville. SignatureChris Cowles Gainesville, FL ______________________________ OT: We spent a couple hours in Cumberland Gap NHP on the return leg. They recently renovated their toilet facilities. I'm told |
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