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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / July 2007Those frequent RV refigerator fires...
The RV community should be aware of the dangers of propane-fired refrigerators like Dometic and Norcold! "The flash point of ammonia hydroxide is just 300 degrees. In most cases the wiring harnesses, module board, or a blocked coil was the cause of the fires. In wiring or LP gas cases the refrigerator manufacturer may be responsible for as much as 92 percent of all fires." From: http://www.rvappraisals.com/newsletter/crash0903.pdf So, even if you get your system inspected regularly it may be the case that a manufacturer's defect remains undetected. http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/June2007/28/c2347.html It's a ticking time bomb... http://www.rvappraisals.com/fire-investigations.htm A word to the wise is sufficient. But, expecting the wise in the group might be asking for just a little too much. Harry Harris  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > So, even if you get your system inspected regularly it may be the case > that a manufacturer's defect remains undetected. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Harry Harris The information is interesting, but essentially worthess. I can show you stats that the bathroom is responsible for over 90% of home accidents. Try putting a house on the market advertizing, "three bedrooms, no bath", and see how far you get. Just being alive is risky, invariabley fatal eventually. RV'ers and campers settled on using propane because it offered energy storage orders of magnitude greater than batteries for the same weight. *ANY* form of dense energy storage is going to be hazardous if mishandled. About two days after some techie invents a storage battery that gives the same power to weight ratio as a cylinder of propane, some dufus will figure out how to accidentally dump all that energy at once and leave a crater where there was a camp site. Until then most of us will do what we can to minimise the risk while a few continue to blow things up or burn them down with propane. Joe PS. I know I'm not going to change anyones opinion. The purpose of this post was to see if my return address is properly munged to prevent "harvesting" by spam mailers. :-) > PS. I know I'm not going to change anyones opinion. The purpose of > this post was to see if my return address is properly munged to > prevent "harvesting" by spam mailers. :-) You have wasted your time then!! My address on newsgroups is real and gets the least spam of my 8 email addresses - not even an average of 1 a week. Tom J > The RV community should be aware of the dangers of propane-fired > refrigerators like Dometic and Norcold! Readers, ignore the advise of this sorely misinformed ignoramus. His so- called facts are nothing but figments of his imagination. Absorption refrigerators were widely in use in homes and in industry for much of the first half of the 20th century with no widespread reports of being any more dangerous than the freon types that have replaced them. As for propane, it's more widely used in homes and industry in numbers that RVs will ever think of achieving. What we have here is a scairdy cat poster whose mama was scared by the propane delivery man, and now he touts propane as the next anthrax. Please vote for Harry Harris as the next Kook Of The Month, and enter him in the Kook Of The Year contest. SignatureFrank Tabor Lysistrata had a good idea. > What we have here is a scairdy cat poster whose mama was scared by the > propane delivery man, and now he touts propane as the next anthrax. > Please vote for Harry Harris as the next Kook Of The Month, and enter > him in the Kook Of The Year contest. From his posts, he's simply another TROLL. >Please vote for Harry Harris as the next Kook Of The Month, and enter him >in the Kook Of The Year contest. May I add: And filter him, so the rest of us who already have him filtered don't have to see his drivel quoted and replied to. GB in NC > Readers, ignore the advise of this sorely misinformed ignoramus. His > so- called facts are nothing but figments of his imagination. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Please vote for Harry Harris as the next Kook Of The Month, and enter > him in the Kook Of The Year contest. I understand that the Albuquerque Balloon Festival has taken hairbrain Harry's advice, and that they are now in the market for dozens of electric heaters with blowers, and 10,000 miles of extension cord. Signature"You can say any foolish thing to a dog, and the dog will give you a look that says, 'My God, you're right! I never would've thought of that!'" --Dave Barry http://www.bobhatch.com http://www.tdsrvresort.com snipped > I understand that the Albuquerque Balloon Festival has taken hairbrain > Harry's advice, and that they are now in the market for dozens of electric > heaters with blowers, and 10,000 miles of extension cord. I've got to check in here and chastise all you guys for not heeding Hairry Hairris's advice. I've taken it to heart and am going to make a major change to my propane setup. As having cylinders on board the rv can lead to devastating results, I'm taking my tanks off the rig and fashioning a pad with a rope attached to the front of the pad and a loop in the rope which I plan to hang on a ball attached to the rear bumper on the trailer. Now comes my dilemma, how long should the rope be to assure me my family will be safe from the hazard of exploding propane tanks. I'm going to need some expert opinions on this as I truly want to safeguard my loved ones. Please don't make fun of my request, I really feel the need to sign onto Hairry Hairris's crusade, our collective safety is at sake here and we need to be cohesive in our collective efforts. Taking on Hairry Hairris's crusade will help keep us all safe. Hugh - proud to be a Hairry Hairris crusader > snipped >> I understand that the Albuquerque Balloon Festival has taken hairbrain [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Taking on Hairry Hairris's crusade will help keep us all safe. > Hugh - proud to be a Hairry Hairris crusader I was thinking the same thing, but my idea was to use a trailer with a real long tongue. Still doing research to find out the optimum tongue length for maximum safety, but it appears that 30'-35' should be enough. I will also use the trailer to carry my water heater, propane refrigeration unit and heater. I plan on piping the hot water and refrigerant up to the 5th wheel and install duct work for the heater. Of course the propane cook stove will have to go, but we already have a convection microwave so all I'll need is a double hot plate. Anyone know how long I'll be able to run the hot plate using my inverter and 4 golf cart batteries? I realize it will be a little more difficult maneuvering the 5th wheel with a trailer 30'35' behind it, but the additional safety of getting the propane out of the 5th wheel will be well worth it. NOT!!! Ron > snipped >> I understand that the Albuquerque Balloon Festival has taken hairbrain [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Taking on Hairry Hairris's crusade will help keep us all safe. > Hugh - proud to be a Hairry Hairris crusader I recommend extensive field testing (in a real field) to determine the kill zone at various fill levels. Paul snipped > I recommend extensive field testing (in a real field) to determine the kill > zone > at various fill levels. > Paul Can I use the field next to your house <g>? Like Bob Hatch I'm thinking I'd like more propane, maybe switch to 100 pounders and up the bottles to six. Ya never can have too much propane but yo do hafta be safe. Hugh Hugh wrote........Ya never can have too much propane but yo do hafta be safe. You got me thinking. We have an unused bedroom and I could put, probably, four 100 gallon tanks of propane in there. They would be nice and safe in there and I could convert my stove, furnace, and water heater to run on propane. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) >On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 "Hairy Hair a.s" wrote: >The RV community should be aware of the dangers of propane-fired >refrigerators like Dometic and Norcold! > >"The flash point of ammonia hydroxide is just 300 degrees . . ." C'mon now Hairy; even YOU can't be that daft! Some idiot reporter, who doesn't have the remotest clue as to what she is talking about, declares: "The flash point of ammonia hydroxide is just 300 degrees . . ." So . . . what kind of "degrees" is she talking about? University, College, Longitude, Latitude, Fahrenheit, Kelvin, Celsius??????????? > >On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 "Hairy Hair a.s" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So . . . what kind of "degrees" is she talking about? University, > College, Longitude, Latitude, Fahrenheit, Kelvin, Celsius??????????? Fahrenheit, of course. This is the USA and we don't use that metric temperature system. Thank God! Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 "Hairy Hair a.s" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So . . . what kind of "degrees" is she talking about? University, > College, Longitude, Latitude, Fahrenheit, Kelvin, Celsius??????????? Well, according to this article, the flash point of ammoniam hydroxide is......none. http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/AM/ammonium_hydroxide.html Another page for harebrain Harry. http://home.howstuffworks.com/refrigerator5.htm And for more detail, but probably more complex than Harry can grasp: http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=refrigerator.htm&url=http://www.n h3tech.org/absorption.html BTW, Harry. What about this fire? Caused by propane? http://www.katu.com/news/local/8496952.html Signature"You can say any foolish thing to a dog, and the dog will give you a look that says, 'My God, you're right! I never would've thought of that!'" --Dave Barry http://www.bobhatch.com http://www.tdsrvresort.com snipped > Well, according to this article, the flash point of ammoniam hydroxide > is......none. > > http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/AM/ammonium_hydroxide.html snipped OhmaGod, Bob, didja see this in that article " Autoignition temperature: 651 C"? That's 1203.8 F so when you're in the desert heat it could be dangerous...ohnuts, fageddaboutit, I misplaced the "dot" and read it as 120.30 F. Still, yagotta admit when we're sitting there in our rv enjoying 1200 F temperatures while reading a good book, it is kinda scary thinking the fridge might burst into flames. I think Hairry Hairris is doing us a big favor by alerting us to this huuuge danger to rv'rs and those who get close to us. Hugh >>> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 "Hairy Hair a.s" wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > BTW, Harry. What about this fire? Caused by propane? > http://www.katu.com/news/local/8496952.html So the fire starts in the engine compartment and probably had nothing to do with propane. But, this one case doesn't negate the hundreds of cases where propane DOES cause the fire or explosion and subsequent destruction of the RV often with great bodily harm and sometimes with loss of life. Your logic is like saying, "I don't worry agout getting lung cancer from smoking cigarettes, I'll probably get killed in a car wreck long before I die of lung cancer. The chance of getting killed in a car wreck may well be higher but the one doesn't preclude the other. Faulty thinking - sort of how the average woman thinks, or rather doesn't think. Emotion-based existence. Harry Harris (not the touchy-feely sort) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Emotion-based existence. Wow. Nice to see you admit it. <g> Signature"You can say any foolish thing to a dog, and the dog will give you a look that says, 'My God, you're right! I never would've thought of that!'" --Dave Barry http://www.bobhatch.com http://www.tdsrvresort.com >>>> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 "Hairy Hair a.s" wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > Harry Harris > (not the touchy-feely sort) Liar. You can't show 100's of propane fires in RV's. None that are creditable. SignatureFrank Tabor A horny young fellow named Reg, Was jerking off under a hedge. The gardener drew near With a huge pruning shear, And trimmed off the edge of his wedge. >>"The flash point of ammonia hydroxide is just 300 degrees . . ." AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE (10 - 35% NH3) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Product Identification Synonyms: Ammonium hydroxide solutions; ammonia aqueous; ammonia solutions CAS No.: 1336-21-6 Molecular Weight: 35.05 Chemical Formula: NH4OH in H2O Product Codes: J.T. Baker: 4807, 5204, 5224, 5350, 5358, 5604, 5817, 5820, 5851, 5852, 5891, 5893, 5993, 7847, 9718, 9719, 9721, 9730, 9731, 9733, 9741, 9742 Mallinckrodt: 0124, 0127, 1177, 3248, 3256, 3258, 5318, 6665, H010, H893, H894, V592, V649, V893, XL002, XM-187, XM-189 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. Composition/Information on Ingredients Ingredient CAS No Percent Hazardous --------------------------------------- ------------ ------------ --------- Ammonium Hydroxide 1336-21-6 21 - 72% Yes Water 7732-18-5 28 - 79% No Contains between 10 and 35% ammonia. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Hazards Identification Emergency Overview -------------------------- POISON! DANGER! CORROSIVE. MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. MIST AND VAPOR CAUSE BURNS TO EVERY AREA OF CONTACT. SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Health Rating: 3 - Severe (Poison) Flammability Rating: 0 - None Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Corrosive) Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES Storage Color Code: White Stripe (Store Separately) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Please note the flamability rating above is f.cking ZERO, nil, nada, nothing, 0, nix, none, ferblungit. Goddamn idiots. Ignore the troll. Or, track him down and stone him to death! > Please note the flamability rating above is...ZERO, nil, nada, > nothing, 0, nix, none, ferblungit. > > Goddamn idiots. Ignore the troll. Or, track him down and stone him to > death! Naw... Strap a rusty, leaking propane tank to his backside and light a match! Signature:) JR >>>"The flash point of ammonia hydroxide is just 300 degrees . . ." > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > Goddamn idiots. Ignore the troll. Or, track him down and stone him to > death! You don't know your scientific formulas very well. NH3 is ammonia. Ammonium Hydroxide has a different formula. NH3OH. Now do you see the difference? See the little OH? That's the hydroxide. It's hydrogen and oxygen. Both are flammable when disassociated from the NH3. And disassociate they do when cooked with a propane fire. And you call me an idiot after exposing your abject ignorance? There might be an excuse for idiocy but there's NEVER an excuse for ignorance. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>>"The flash point of ammonia hydroxide is just 300 degrees . . ." >>> >> AMMONIUM HYDROXIDE (10 - 35% NH3) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> 1. Product Identification >> Synonyms: Ammonium hydroxide solutions; ammonia aqueous; ammonia [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Mallinckrodt: 0124, 0127, 1177, 3248, 3256, 3258, 5318, 6665, H010, >> H893, H894, V592, V649, V893, XL002, XM-187, XM-189 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> 2. Composition/Information on Ingredients >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> No >> Contains between 10 and 35% ammonia. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> 3. Hazards Identification >> Emergency Overview [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> SAF-T-DATA(tm) Ratings (Provided here for your convenience) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Health Rating: 3 - Severe (Poison) >> Flammability Rating: 0 - None >> Reactivity Rating: 1 - Slight >> Contact Rating: 4 - Extreme (Corrosive) Lab Protective Equip: GOGGLES & >> SHIELD; LAB COAT & APRON; VENT HOOD; PROPER GLOVES >> Storage Color Code: White Stripe (Store Separately) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Please note the flamability rating above is f.cking ZERO, nil, nada, >> nothing, 0, nix, none, ferblungit. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Harry Harris Ammonium Hydroxide is fertilizer, f.ck head. SignatureFrank Tabor Were there no women, men might live like gods. -- Thomas Dekker > Ammonium Hydroxide is fertilizer I thought it was ammonium NITRATE. Wasn't it ammonium nitrate and fuel oil used by McVeigh? Signature:) JR >> Ammonium Hydroxide is fertilizer > > I thought it was ammonium NITRATE. > > Wasn't it ammonium nitrate and fuel oil used by McVeigh? Yep, I made a boo boo. SignatureFrank Tabor question = ( to ) ? be : ! be; -- Wm. Shakespeare >> Ammonium Hydroxide is fertilizer > > I thought it was ammonium NITRATE. > > Wasn't it ammonium nitrate and fuel oil used by McVeigh? You need to excuse poor old Frank. It sounds to me like he's not well versed in statistics or anything scientific. He probably didn't even make it out of high school. He's too emotion based. He won't let the facts get in his way of believing anything he FEELS like believing. For emotion based people like him, feelings are more important than reality. . This is the reality... Yes, ammonium nitrate is fertilizer. Ammonium hydroxide (NH4OH) is an aqueous solution of ammonia. Ammonia gas will burn easily when exposed to a flame as in a Dometic refigerator. Physical data for NH3 Appearance: colourless gas with a penetrating, suffocating odour Melting point: -77.7 C Boiling point: -33.3 C Vapour density: 0.89 g/l Vapour pressure: 0.597 Specific gravity: 0.77 Flash point: 11 C Explosion limits: 16% - 25% Water solubility: High Note the actual flash point as this is the point of the discussion - or was, prior to Frank's attempt to turn it into a name-calling match. But, I won't play. I prefer to deal with the facts. That's why I have credibility and Frank doesn't. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com Nothing, you don't have any facts. You're an idiot. It's terminal. You'll never recover. SignatureFrank Tabor A man who cannot seduce men cannot save them either. -- Soren Kierkegaard > That's why I have credibility Credibility? You? Bwhahahahahahaha. Signature"You can say any foolish thing to a dog, and the dog will give you a look that says, 'My God, you're right! I never would've thought of that!'" --Dave Barry http://www.bobhatch.com http://www.tdsrvresort.com "Harry Harris" babbled on and on then wrote.... That's why I have credibility<<<<<<<<< BoB answered.....Credibility? You? Bwhahahahahahaha<<<< If black tank thinks he has credibility, it proves he is delusional. Definition A delusion is an unshakable belief in something untrue. These irrational beliefs defy normal reasoning, and remain firm even when overwhelming proof is presented to dispute them. Delusions are often accompanied by hallucinations and/or feelings of paranoia, which act to strengthen confidence in the delusion.< That definition also applies to most Democrats on this board. SignatureJerryD(upstateNY) I see where "JerryD\(upstateNY\)" <jerryd@wherever.com> contributed: >A delusion is an unshakable belief in something untrue. These irrational >beliefs defy normal reasoning, and remain firm even when overwhelming proof >is presented to dispute them. Delusions are often accompanied by >hallucinations and/or feelings of paranoia, which act to strengthen >confidence in the delusion.< See http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/ferouscranus.htm for a photo of Harry Harris wearing a portion of a propane bottle as headgear. Will "If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free." P.J. O'Rourke <SNIP> >You don't know your scientific formulas very well. NH3 is ammonia. >Ammonium Hydroxide has a different formula. NH3OH. BS! Post the reactions. Show us how NH3OH is produced from aqua ammonia. > Now do you see the >difference? See the little OH? That's the hydroxide. It's hydrogen and >oxygen. Both are flammable when disassociated from the NH3. And >disassociate they do when cooked with a propane fire. Say what? More ignorant BS from a lowgrade troll that I choose to feed just this once. Sorry folks. When anhydrous (without water) ammonia, a gas, is bubbled in water it goes (dissolves) into solution and produces aqua ammonia or ammonia water. Anhydrous ammonia dissolves in water just the way sugar dissolves in water. No new compounds are formed, except that............... A very small % of the ammonia, <1%, reacts chemically with the water. An ammonia molecule 'borrows' a hydrogen atom from a water molecule and they disassociate into Ammonium, NH4, and Hydroxide, OH creating the two ions NH4 and OH. What is produced is ammonium AND hydroxide ions. NH3 + H2O <=> NH4 + OH ~~~~~~~~~~~~~ When ammonia water is heated the ammonia, which is a gas, will come out of solution well before the water boils. (Remember the old Blueprints, they were developed by driving ammonia out of solution with heat, just like the refers we are talking about) Supposing there were a few Hydroxyl ions left in the steam, they would need a hydrogen atom to 'burn' back into water and the available hydrogen atoms in the Ammonium ions are long gone. Or are you saying that the hydroxyl ions will 'burn' in air by taking up an oxygen atom and become HO2? Or perhaps two OH ions meet while in solution and join up and become H2O2, hydrogen peroxide? >And you call me an idiot after exposing your abject ignorance? There >might be an excuse for idiocy but there's NEVER an excuse for ignorance. OK, so give us the reason, no excuses now, for your ignorance. No education in chemistry? No common sense? Just a stupid troll? All three? Troll on. You should take a general chemistry class, you will be amazed at just how little you actually know and understand about very basic chemical reactions. Ty SignatureMath Poem [( 12 + 144 + 20 +(3*sqrt 4)) / 7] + 5*11 = 9*9 + 0 Harry: I am willing to accept the fact that propane fired RV refrigerators are dangerous. But, I would like to ask you if there is a reasonable alternative. A propane fired refrigerator will run for a very long time before the propane tank is empty. I'll admit I've never measured it, but I'll bet the time is in weeks. Would you be willing to post the manufacturer & model number of a 12VDC refrigerator that will last at least 5 days on a good quality deep cycle battery? I'm probably late in asking this question. I'm sure I've missed a good part of the posts on this topic. Sorry! Dave On Jul 15, 10:58 am, "Harry Harris" <har...@thehilltopcafe.notagoodaddy> wrote: > The RV community should be aware of the dangers of propane-fired > refrigerators like Dometic and Norcold! [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com > Harry: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Dave A bottle of propane does, indeed, contain a lot of potential energy. You can run a fridge a week on a 20lb bottle so that makes it an attractive source of power. But, it IS more dangerous because of the potential energy involved and the very nature of the gas which can leak to dangerous levels even from a pinhole. A safer alternative is a 12VDC/120VAC refrigerator which will never be able to blow up your RV. No size 24 or 27 battery will run a 12VDC for more than a day as the fridge will draw around 4-5 amps during the time it runs. It runs about half the time in summer hot weather which ends up being a battery's worth of amps per day. So, you need a way to keep the batteries charged every day. You can plug into a campground with your battery charger (four battery house bank) and you can install solar panels on top of your RV. If you install four, 100 watt panels you will have 400 watts of power when the sun is shining. This will charge your batteries right up even when the fridge is running. It will work for dry camping. Your motor also charges the batteries when you're driving around. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Harry Harris is still and idiot. SignatureFrank Tabor You will wish you hadn't. |
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