 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / August 2007Satellite Options?
I'm about fed up with my cable company for my home, and since we have a 30 foot motorhome that we use occasionally for vacations and tailgating college football games, I was wondering if it's feasible to switch from cable tv to satellite for home service and then have a second dish that I could bring on our RV trips to get channels. Does it work that way, from one account and the dish can be mobile? Any differences between DirectTV and Dish? Would I have to pay extra for this convenience? Also for the internet service, that would be good but I'd be hesitant to use satellite for home internet since i often work from home and need good bandwidth. Thanks for any help... >I'm about fed up with my cable company for my home, and since we have a >30 foot motorhome that we use occasionally for vacations and tailgating [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >from one account and the dish can be mobile? Any differences between >DirectTV and Dish? Would I have to pay extra for this convenience? Fundamentally, just do it. They have no idea where you are located at any given time. Now if you tell them, and want a different receiver for the RV, that may incur minor to major additional cost. Some newer Dish receivers incur a monthly charge if not regularly connected to a phone line. Not true with older Dish models, or DTV models. >Also for the internet service, that would be good but I'd be hesitant to >use satellite for home internet since i often work from home and need >good bandwidth. Those of us who use satellite internet on the road would never recommend it as a substitute for "real" broadband. I used my satellite on a fixed dish at home for a few years, but DSL arrived and now I maintain two accounts. I would not be without my satellite internet, but I need it, and I'm on the road roughly half the year. --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty >>I'm about fed up with my cable company for my home, and since we have a >>30 foot motorhome that we use occasionally for vacations and tailgating [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" > towing '07 Jeep Liberty I thought the uplink on broadband satellite had to be installed by a licensed installer. If you are realigning that uplink transmitter you may be in for fines and possible jail sentence. You could be interfering with military and essential satellite links. Pastor William Rennick Amen! >>>I'm about fed up with my cable company for my home, and since we have a >>>30 foot motorhome that we use occasionally for vacations and tailgating [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Amen! You are about 5 years behind times.  SignatureFrank Tabor F.S. Fitzgerald to Hemingway: "Ernest, the rich are different from us." Hemingway: "Yes. They have more money." > You are about 5 years behind times. Civil is nice but you can still do better than THAT. WHY is he behind the times? Inquiring minds... (TIA) Signature:) JR >> You are about 5 years behind times. > > Civil is nice but you can still do better than THAT. WHY is he behind > the times? Inquiring minds... (TIA) Read Don's replies. SignatureFrank Tabor A gift of a flower will soon be made to you. >I thought the uplink on broadband satellite had to be installed by a >licensed installer. Nope, although that is the preference of the providers. In my case, the pointing is done by a provider-approved automatic mount, but in the case of manual pointers they are only doing something the providers aren't fond of. Actually, both the major companies have, or have had, authorized manual programs, although most of the self-pointers aren't part of those programs. > If you are realigning that uplink transmitter you may >be in for fines and possible jail sentence. Nope. Zero laws saying that. Zipp, nada. No legal rules or regulations being broken. Common misconception. The FCC regs requiring licensed installation have bottom power/size thresholds much greater than the dishes used on RVs. We max at 1.2 meters and 4 watts, with most at 0.74 meters and 1 watt, and the FCC regs don't care much about smaller than 6 meter/50 watts. Absolutely no rules at 4 watts and below. >You could be interfering with >military and essential satellite links. Not possible, both because of the low power and because of the transmitter interlink/lockouts in current equipment, which does not allow you to transmit unless receiving from the correct satellite. --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty FCC regulations "exemptions" for internet satellite dishes apply to dishes that operate from a single fixed location (customer end location). If you are moving about, setting it up and taking it down that set of exemptions (47 C.F.R. 1.4000 ) no longer applies as there is no longer a customer end location. The rules also state the dish is to be mounted upon a fixed object such as a earth bound pole, house, balcony etc. An automobile is not a fixed mount. Glory be to God! Pastor William Rennick >FCC regulations "exemptions" for internet satellite dishes apply to dishes >that operate from a single fixed location (customer end location). If you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >such as a earth bound pole, house, balcony etc. An automobile is not a fixed >mount. Quoting a regulation that has nothing to do with the topic at hand does not improve your position. 1.4000 exempts home dishes from unreasonable *local* restrictions. It has nothing to do with placing any federal restrictions on small dishes, either fixed, temporary fixed, or mobile. You are an extreme johnny-come-lately to the topic, which has been hashed out in tens of thousands of postings in dozens of online forums (some of which I run or moderate). The result is that there are an estimated 20,000 satellite internet dishes currently being used by RVers and other private mobile entities, roughly half provider-authorized, and half not. In the six years that this has been going on, not a single case of federal concern has arisen, and the providers have not shutdown any, even among the unauthorized. Your position is one that you want to be true, and as a result you will likely hold to your incorrect beliefs. So be it, but we are way past the sort of scare tactics you are trying to employ. --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty Looks like someone is wrong: http://www.skycasters.com/satellite-portable-internet-mobile/index.html Says: Installation and Operation of Temporary-Fixed VSAT Two-Way Satellite Earth Stations August 2, 2002 These rules apply to the installation of all Temporary-Fixed Two-Way 0.74 m, 0.98 m and 1.2 m earth stations using the VSAT service including those mounted and operated on vehicles, such as an emergency response vehicle or a consumer recreation vehicle. A "Temporary-Fixed" earth station is, according to the FCC rules, an earth station that changes its location (coordinates) anytime during a six-month period. For the purposes of this document, all HNS earth stations using VSAT service, mounted on a vehicle or truck or otherwise used as a transportable antenna for stationary operation, are considered Temporary-Fixed Earth Stations. The FCC has imposed the following conditions on the FCC licenses held by Hughes Network Systems when operating, installing and deploying Temporary Fixed Earth Stations and is mandatory for all installations made within the Continental United States as well as Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands and other U.S. territories. These conditions are also required by HNS for all other installed locations using the VSAT service (and may be supplemented by regulatory requirements in other jurisdictions) in order for Hughes Network Systems to meet its obligations to its space segment suppliers. 1. All Temporary-Fixed antenna installers must be HNS-Certified, and must have specifically acknowledged the requirements for Temporary-Fixed VSAT installations. 2. "Installation" is the physical mounting and wiring of the VSAT Two-Way Satellite System on a vehicle or other stationary site in order to prepare for correct operation. The installation and removal of a Temporary-Fixed antenna must only be done by an HNS-Certified Installer. 3. "Deployment" means the raising, pointing and orienting of the antenna to the communicating satellite, every time it is raised from a stowed position for use. The deployment of a Temporary-Fixed antenna must only be done by a trained installer or by a consumer using HNS-Certified deployment software. 4. Installers shall install the antennas only in locations that are not readily accessible to children and in a manner that prevents human exposure to potential radiation hazards. 5. For large vehicles with roof mounts, the height of the bottom lip of the antenna when fully deployed must be at least six feet above the ground at all times, or six feet above a surrounding surface which a person may easily access. 6. If a roof access ladder or any other means of access to the roof is installed on the vehicle, then the ladder or access must be blocked by a suitable rope or other barrier while the antenna is deployed or in operation. The installer must provide this rope or barrier directly to the end user at the time of installation and advise the user to use it at all times when the antenna is deployed or in operation. Warning signs shall also be provided by the installer to the end user to be posted on the rope or other barrier warning all persons not to attempt to access the roof of the vehicle while the antenna is deployed or in operation. 7. Warning signs shall be posted at prominent locations on the antenna informing all persons of the danger of harmful radiation from the antenna while it is deployed or in operation. 8. The antenna may only be operated when the vehicle is stationary. Suitable system safeguards will be provided to ensure that the antenna cannot operate when the vehicle is in motion, e.g. transmitter is disabled when the ignition key is turned, or when the GPS senses a change of direction greater than one degree. 9. The installer must inform the end user that the vehicle must be stabilized during the transmission, to prevent movement of the vehicle for any reason, including movement of persons on or off the vehicle, or high winds. The installer shall advise the end user how to appropriately stabilize their vehicle. 10. Installers shall be liable for all damages if they fail to comply with the mandatory FCC License conditions included in the HNS licenses for Temporary-Fixed Earth Stations. This includes, but is not limited to damages caused by improper installation or due to the failure to provide required information to the end user. 11. Installers and end users will be deemed directly liable for any damages resulting from their failure to comply with the above rules. These rules are meant to ensure that extraordinary precautions and measures are used to prevent satellite interference or exposure to harmful radiation. HNS reserves the rights to immediately suspend without liability or previous notice the operation of the earth station upon detection of a deviation from its installation or operational requirements until the deviation is corrected. In addition, HNS reserves the right to suspend or cancel the Installer Certificate of any installer who has not fully complied with these installation requirements. 12. Further, the installer and end user may be directly liable for any damages resulting from any change undertaken by either of them, including but not limited to, any modification of any part of the hardware, software, specific operational frequencies, the authorized satellite, or the size or other characteristics of the antenna supplied to them by HNS or HNS' authorized representatives. http://www.wildblue.com/aboutWildblue/qaa.jsp#4_1 What is the installation process like? Can I install my own dish? WildBlue professional installers quickly and efficiently install equipment and activate WildBlue's broadband service at your chosen location. The satellite mini-dish is about 26 inches x 28 inches and can be easily mounted on a roof, outside wall or in the ground. A cable from the dish connects to a satellite modem (a small box usually placed next to the computer), which connects to your computer via an Ethernet connection. Installation requires an installation professional to make sure that the dish is pointed at the satellite accurately and to verify that all connections are made properly. Self-installation is not offered. See our How it Works Demo. http://www.skycasters.com/fcc-rules.html Q: How does the rule apply to restrictions on radio frequency (RF) exposure from antennas that have the capability to transmit signals? A: All transmitters regulated by the Commission, including the customer-end fixed wireless antennas (either satellite or terrestrial) covered under the amended rule, are required to meet the applicable Commission guidelines regarding RF exposure limits. The limits established in the guidelines are designed to protect the public health with a large margin of safety. These limits have been endorsed by federal health and safety agencies, such as the Environmental Protection Agency and the Food and Drug Administration. The Commission requires that providers of fixed wireless service exercise reasonable care to protect users and the public from RF exposure in excess of the Commission's limits. In addition, as a condition of invoking protection under the rule from government, landlord, and association restrictions, a provider of fixed wireless service must ensure that customer-end antennas are labeled to give notice of potential RF safety hazards posed by these antennas.* It is recommended that antennas that both receive and transmit signals be installed by professional personnel to maximize effectiveness and minimize the possibility that the antenna will be placed in a location that is likely to expose subscribers or other persons to the transmit signal at close proximity and for an extended period of time. In general, associations, landlords, local governments and other restricting entities may not require professional installation for receive-only antennas, such as one-way DBS satellite dishes. However, local governments, associations, and property owners may require professional installation for transmitting antennas based on the safety exception to the rule. Such safety requirements must be: (1) clearly defined; (2) based on a legitimate safety objective (such as bona fide concerns about RF radiation) which is articulated in the restriction or readily available to antenna users; (3) applied in a non-discriminatory manner; and (4) no more burdensome than necessary to achieve the articulated objectives. For additional information about the Commission's RF exposure limits,please visit www.fcc.gov/oet/rfsafety or call the RF Safety Information Line at 202-418-2464. Let's see your valid sources of information for what you claim. http://www.vsat-systems.com/internet-via-satellite/index.html#33 Why does my Internet via satellite system need to be professionally installed? The Federal Communications Commission (FCC) requires that trained professionals install any two-way satellite system. Back to top http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=148626315458+2+0 +0&WAISaction=retrieve Sec. 25.115 Application for earth station authorizations. (a)(1) Transmitting earth stations. Except as provided under Sec. 25.113(b), Commission authorization must be obtained for authority to construct and/or operate a transmitting earth station. Applications shall be filed electronically on FCC Form 312, Main Form and Schedule B, and include the information specified in Sec. 25.130, except as set forth in paragraph (a)(2) of this section. (2) Applicants for licenses for transmitting earth station facilities are required to file on Form 312EZ, to the extent that form is available, in the following cases: (i) The earth station will transmit in the 3700-4200 MHz and 5925- 6425 MHz band, and/or the 11.7-12.2 GHz and 14.0-14.5 GHz band; and Sec. 25.134 Licensing provisions of Very Small Aperture Terminal (VSAT) and C-band Small Aperture Terminal (CSAT) networks. (a)(1) VSAT networks operating in the 12/14 GHz bands. All applications for digital VSAT networks with a maximum outbound downlink EIRP density of +6.0 dBW/4 kHz per carrier and earth station antennas with maximum input power density of -14 dBW/4 kHz and maximum hub EIRP of 78.3 dBW will be processed routinely. All applications for analog VSAT networks with maximum outbound downlink power densities of +13.0 dBW/4 kHz per carrier and maximum antenna input power densities of -8.0 dBW/4 kHz shall be processed routinely in accordance with Declaratory Order in the Matter of Routine Licensing of Earth Stations in the 6 GHz and 14 GHz Bands Using Antennas Less than 9 Meters and 5 Meters in Diameter, Respectively, for Both Full Transponder and Narrowband Transmissions, 2 FCC Rcd 2149 (1987) (Declaratory Order). (a)(2) Large Networks of Small Antennas operating in the 4/6 GHz frequency bands. All applications for digital and/or analog operations will be routinely processed provided the network employs antennas that are 4.5 meter or larger in diameter, that are consistent with Sec. 25.209, the power levels are consistent with Sec. Sec. 25.211(d) and 25.212(d), and frequency coordination has been satisfactorily completed. The use of smaller antennas or non-consistent power levels require the filing of an initial lead application (Sec. 25.115(c)(2)) that includes all technical analyses required to demonstrate that unacceptable interference will not be caused to any and all affected adjacent satellite operators by the operation of the non-conforming earth station. (b) VSAT networks operating in the 12/14 GHz bands. Each applicant for digital and/or analog VSAT network authorization proposing to use transmitted satellite carrier EIRP densities in excess of +6.0 dBW/4 kHz and +13.0 dBW/4 kHz, respectively, and/or maximum antenna input power densities of -14.0 dBW/4 kHz and maximum hub EIRPs of 78.3 dBW and -8.0 dBW/4 kHz per carrier, respectively, shall conduct an engineering analysis using the Sharp, Adjacent Satellite Interference Analysis (ASIA) program. Applicants shall submit a complete description of those baseline parameters they use in conducting their analysis and tabular summaries of the ASIA program's output detailing potential interference shortfalls. Applicants shall also submit a narrative summary which must indicate whether there are margin shortfalls in any of the current baseline services as a result of the addition of the new applicant's high power service, and if so, how the applicant intends to resolve those margin shortfalls. Applicants shall submit link budget analyses of the operations proposed along with a detailed written explanation of how each uplink and each transmitted satellite carrier density figure is derived. Applicants shall provide proof by affidavit that all potentially affected parties acknowledge and do not object to the use of the applicant's higher power density. (c) Licensees authorized pursuant to paragraph (b) of this section shall bear the burden of coordinating with any future applicants or licensees whose proposed compliant VSAT operations, as defined by paragraph (a) of this section, is potentially or actually adversely affected by the operation of the [[Page 286]] non-compliant licensee. If no good faith agreement can be reached, however, the non-compliant licensee shall reduce its power density levels to those compliant with the VSAT Order or the Declaratory Order, whichever is applicable. (d) An application for VSAT authorization shall be filed on FCC Form 312, Main Form and Schedule B. A VSAT licensee applying to renew its license must include on FCC Form 405, the number of constructed VSAT units in its network. [56 FR 66001, Dec. 20, 1991, as amended at 62 FR 5929, Feb. 10, 1997; 66 FR 31560, June 12, 2001] Do you actually read, carefully, what you post? I've already said that most of the manual pointers are unauthorized, so quoting the provider saying you can't do it (they now say you can, by the way, unlike in 2002, but they put economic barriers that leave most preferring to stay unauthorized) is not like quoting law or regulations. Hughes has been challenged time and again to provide the license that they say prohibits non "professional" (note that word, not "licensed" - professional just means you do it for money) installations. They remain mum, and as I said, they've reversed the postion (February 2007) and authorized manual installations for those willing to pay more. No training, just pay more. The regulations you quote, while extensive, all have caveats that exempt the sort of low-power dishes we operate. Read it again, carefully, noting all of the references to EIRPs and try to envision that with a .74 meter 1-watt dish! --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty > Do you actually read, carefully, what you post? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" > towing '07 Jeep Liberty Not only is he a moron, he's a troll, and probably a sock puppet of Sahd O'Shay or Harry Harris. Best just tell him to fuckoff then filter him. SignatureFrank Tabor Don't accept rides from strange men -- and remember that all men are strange as hell. -- Robin Morgan, "Sisterhood Is Powerful" > Do you actually read, carefully, what you post? > > I've already said that most of the manual pointers are unauthorized, So we agree. > so quoting the provider saying you can't do it (they now say you can, > by the way, unlike in 2002, but they put economic barriers that leave [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not "licensed" - professional just means you do it for money) > installations. They have the license from the FCC for the distributed VSAT use. They can set any terms they want on the end user as long as the end result is that the installation is compliant with FCC regulations. They remain mum, and as I said, they've reversed the > postion (February 2007) and authorized manual installations for those > willing to pay more. No training, just pay more. Why pay more? So less people self install or to cover potential liabilities? > The regulations you quote, while extensive, all have caveats that > exempt the sort of low-power dishes we operate. Read it again, > carefully, noting all of the references to EIRPs and try to envision > that with a .74 meter 1-watt dish! What is the effective radiated isotropic power of a .74 meter dish illuminated with a 1 watt source? I'll save you the trouble and calculate it right here: 1. Assume 90% illumination efficiency of the dish with the feedhorn. (Bonus question: what f/d ratio on the dish and what type of feedhorn is required to get this?) That's 100 mW spillover. 2. Gain of the .74 meter dish is frequency dependent. At 12 GHz the gain is G (dB) = 10 log (efficiency) + 20.4 dB + 20 (log D/m + log f/GHz) Plugging in: G (dB) = -.45 + 20.4 + 20 * (-.15 + 1.07) G(dB) = 38 dB So now in the beam we're looking at 38 dB over 1 watt isotropic. In the main beam the equivalent power is an isotropic radiator transmitting 80 watts. Now show me the EIRP you so frequently refer to but never appears? Remember, the EIRP has to exceed the thermal noise of the earth that the satellite sees. I'd like to see where EIRP is used in any satellite link calculation. What is the noise temperature of the earth that the earth based transmitter has to overcome? As far a being a troll, I've provided industry references, calculations, copies of the US CFR regulations.All my assertions and arguments are backed up with traceable references and known engineering calculations. Yet you claim to be some expert and head several groups. Let's see some substance and expertise. You have not shown anything to contradict or show otherwise anything I've said. All I hear are personal attacks and "let's ignore him - he'll go away". You look really silly. You clowns are just flapping your gums with little or no understanding. I bet you are hucksters that sell satellite dishes and above ground swimming pools. Stick around because I'm getting ready to go into SAR (specific absorption rates), microwave exposure limits and biological effects of exposure to electromagnetic radiation both planar and near field effects.You are getting your a.ses smacked by a "johnny come lately" or a "troll". Pathetic isn't it? Pastor William Rennick PhD > --- > Don Bradner > donb (not don) at arcatapet.com > '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" > towing '07 Jeep Liberty >They have the license from the FCC for the distributed VSAT use. They can >set any terms they want on the end user as long as the end result is that >the installation is compliant with FCC regulations. "can set" has no meaning when there is no enforcement. If they had ever started disabling dishes that move (and they certainly know they are moved!), there might have been meaning. Since they didn't, and don't, it doesn't matter, and since no laws are being broken there is no incentive for any other agency to care. >Why pay more? So less people self install or to cover potential liabilities? It's all about support. They don't want to support self-pointers, including auto-point, so they say if you want to do that you must obtain service from one of their resellers, and the resellers (all of whom charge more) must provide all end-user support. They authorized auto-pointers using VARs in 2002, and manual pointers using VARs in February of this year. Note that nothing of a legal nature occurred to change the status of the movers, who were always legal, just the authorization changed. Because the auto-pointing systems are very expensive, and the VARs typically also support the hardware, most auto-point customers use VARs. Because the tripoders are typically trying to do it on the cheap, most do not. The standard has always been "Don't call for support, use peer support." >Stick around because I'm getting ready to go into SAR (specific absorption >rates), microwave exposure limits and biological effects of exposure to >electromagnetic radiation both planar and near field effects. The exposure risk is what is most commonly thrown at the tripoders. Folks with a dish (apparently) pointed at their RV (they know nothing about the 19.5 degree offset) are sure they are being fried. The FCC Limits for General Population/Uncontrolled Exposure at these frequencies is 1.0 mW/sq cm, with maximum exposure to be 30 minutes. If you had 100% efficiency with the dish in question you would get 0.2mW/sq cm in the reflected beam. Granted that it is possible to have far higher in the area between feed horn and dish, but that ignores a practical matter: because of these and other issues, all current consumer equipment has transmit lockout - the transmitter is immediately disabled when the receive carrier is not present, or is severely degraded, a certainty if you get a body part in there, or point it at your neighbor's bedroom. A final point before I let you have the last word: Remember that you brought this on, not by quoting anything technical, but rather by throwing out the following: >I thought the uplink on broadband satellite had to be installed by a >licensed installer. If you are realigning that uplink transmitter you may >be in for fines and possible jail sentence. You could be interfering with >military and essential satellite links. All parts of that were wrong. Even the provider does not require/provide licensing. There are a few consumer installers who have FCC licenses, usually because they also install high-power commercial equipment. Most have no licenses, and many have no formal training. Typically a dealer will attend, or will have one employee who has attended, a one-day course from the provider after which they are "certified" and can obtain SAN and PIN numbers to enable a modem. That dealer hires crews willing to climb ladders for low pay, and those guys use the one certificate to obtain the required authorization. It is a given, if you go where those who have had "professional" installs (such as the BroadbandReports.com satellite forums, or copperhead.cc), the number one issue is shoddy installs. They typical self-pointing RVer often has pointed at a satellite more often than many installers. Secondly you brought up supposed fines and jail sentences. That was fear-mongering with no relation to what is happening in the real world. Finally you brought up the spurious issue of interference. Again, pointing at wrong satellites will neve enable the transmitter on a consumer unit, and they also have to pass cross-pol isolation tests before the transmitter will fully enable. All designed to make sure that interference isn't an issue, whether faulty pointing is by a shoddy "professional" installer, or a self-mover. Then, when your mis-information was countered, your first response was to point to the non-applicable CFR 47 1.4000. I guess you thought that would impress. It didn't, so you delved deeply into formulae knowing most of your audience couldn't follow and would have to assume that you somehow proved that something legal was illegal. You didn't. I am criticized by those that know me here for responding to you at all. It is my opinion that allowing your statements to go unchallenged could lead people who might greatly benefit from mobile satellite internet to wonder if you are right. Hopefully now they will neither take your word or mine, but go out and look at what is really going on for themselves. They won't have to look far. It is a rare large RV park anymore without one or more persons actually using mobile satellite internet, and most are quite willing to explain what they do and how they do it. Finally, I have no financial stake in this. I do not sell anything related to satellite internet, and I do not have any ownership or other financial relationship with anyone who does, although I have many friends in the business from manufacturers to installers. --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty >>They have the license from the FCC for the distributed VSAT use. They can >>set any terms they want on the end user as long as the end result is that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > don't, it doesn't matter, and since no laws are being broken there is > no incentive for any other agency to care. The FCC enforces 47 CFR, the courts enforce the contracts between the license holder (the dish manufacturer) and the end user. Enforcement of the FCC regs would mean the FCC pulls the license. >>Why pay more? So less people self install or to cover potential >>liabilities? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > change the status of the movers, who were always legal, just the > authorization changed. What is a VAR? Who authorized manual pointers? The FCC? The manufacturers? In the end, the set up must comply with FCC regs. > Because the auto-pointing systems are very expensive, and the VARs > typically also support the hardware, most auto-point customers use > VARs. Because the tripoders are typically trying to do it on the > cheap, most do not. The standard has always been "Don't call for > support, use peer support." Do tripoders manually pointing violate FCC regs? >>Stick around because I'm getting ready to go into SAR (specific absorption >>rates), microwave exposure limits and biological effects of exposure to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Folks with a dish (apparently) pointed at their RV (they know nothing > about the 19.5 degree offset) are sure they are being fried. Violating the regulations. > The FCC Limits for General Population/Uncontrolled Exposure at these > frequencies is 1.0 mW/sq cm, with maximum exposure to be 30 minutes. At what frequency? These are general guidelines and do not take into account specific resonances and specific effects of exposure. The regs are based on a heating model using blood circulation to disapatew the heat. The vitreous humor of the eyeball has no such mechanism and is a resonant structure. Since the dish is on for more than 30 minutes, lower exposure limits should be considered. What happened to EIRP? http://www.medcalc.com/body.html A 6' man at 200 lbs has a surface area of about 2.13 m^2. Take about 1/2 of that say 1 m^2 or 10,000 cm^2. . That put his exposure limit at 10 watts, which is exceeded in the main beam of your dish example. Now take a small child, say 45 lbs at 4' tall. The total area is .84 meters, the exposure limit is 4.2 watts. Unfortunately, the dish and or its leakage does not uniformly expose the body, it is usually concentrated in the head or whatever. Certainly, the 4 watt .6 meter dish has the potential to exceed the FCC limits. Remember the 80 watt EIRP in the main beam? This is not what you led others to believe. > If you had 100% efficiency with the dish in question you would get > 0.2mW/sq cm in the reflected beam. Granted that it is possible to have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > severely degraded, a certainty if you get a body part in there, or > point it at your neighbor's bedroom. A typical dish is 50-60% efficient. That means one half the power never touches the dish, it is "spilled over" the sides. Very little power in this inefficiency is disapated as heat. 2 watts incident on a child's head exceeds the FCC limit. It's a possibility here isn't it? > A final point before I let you have the last word: Remember that you > brought this on, not by quoting anything technical, but rather by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>be in for fines and possible jail sentence. You could be interfering with >>military and essential satellite links. Yes I did. > All parts of that were wrong. Even the provider does not > require/provide licensing. There are a few consumer installers who [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > those guys use the one certificate to obtain the required > authorization. The FCC grants the license to the equipment manufacturer. It is up to the manufacturer to see that the conditionss of the license are upheld. Fines? Right here: http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2005/DA-05-2995A1.html Liability? FCC Compliance? Right here: http://www.skycasters.com/mobile-rules.html These rules apply to the installation of all Temporary-Fixed Two-Way 0.74 m, 0.98 m and 1.2 m earth stations using the VSAT service including those mounted and operated on vehicles, such as an emergency response vehicle or a consumer recreation vehicle. A "Temporary-Fixed" earth station is, according to the FCC rules, an earth station that changes its location (coordinates) anytime during a six-month period. For the purposes of this document, all HNS earth stations using VSAT service, mounted on a vehicle or truck or otherwise used as a transportable antenna for stationary operation, are considered Temporary-Fixed Earth Stations. The FCC has imposed the following conditions on the FCC licenses held by Hughes Network Systems when operating, installing and deploying Temporary Fixed Earth Stations and is mandatory for all installations made within the Continental United States as well as Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands and other U.S. territories. These conditions are also required by HNS for all other installed locations using the VSAT service (and may be supplemented by regulatory requirements in other jurisdictions) in order for Hughes Network Systems to meet its obligations to its space segment suppliers. 10. Installers shall be liable for all damages if they fail to comply with the mandatory FCC License conditions included in the HNS licenses for Temporary-Fixed Earth Stations. This includes, but is not limited to damages caused by improper installation or due to the failure to provide required information to the end user. 11. Installers and end users will be deemed directly liable for any damages resulting from their failure to comply with the above rules. These rules are meant to ensure that extraordinary precautions and measures are used to prevent satellite interference or exposure to harmful radiation. HNS reserves the rights to immediately suspend without liability or previous notice the operation of the earth station upon detection of a deviation from its installation or operational requirements until the deviation is corrected. In addition, HNS reserves the right to suspend or cancel the Installer Certificate of any installer who has not fully complied with these installation requirements. > It is a given, if you go where those who have had "professional" > installs (such as the BroadbandReports.com satellite forums, or > copperhead.cc), the number one issue is shoddy installs. They typical > self-pointing RVer often has pointed at a satellite more often than > many installers. No argument here. I would rather install it myself than let the hacks do it, many an RVer is quite competent at finding the bird. > Secondly you brought up supposed fines and jail sentences. That was > fear-mongering with no relation to what is happening in the real > world. The law provides for fines and sentencing. I can find cases where this did happen. Most cases the offender was intentional or previously warned and then acted recklessly. However, there is civil liability. > Finally you brought up the spurious issue of interference. Again, > pointing at wrong satellites will neve enable the transmitter on a > consumer unit, and they also have to pass cross-pol isolation tests > before the transmitter will fully enable. All designed to make sure > that interference isn't an issue, whether faulty pointing is by a > shoddy "professional" installer, or a self-mover. Then that system is designed to comply with FCC regulations. > Then, when your mis-information was countered, your first response was > to point to the non-applicable CFR 47 1.4000. I guess you thought that > would impress. It didn't, so you delved deeply into formulae knowing > most of your audience couldn't follow and would have to assume that > you somehow proved that something legal was illegal. You didn't. It is patently illegal to cause interference with other services. It is not a primary service. Here's just one example: http://www.space.com/spacenews/archive03/fccarch_122303.html "However, the current regulatory system also requires that such shipboard transmissions cease immediately at the first sign of interference with any other system using the same frequencies. For that reason, the permit system has been an impediment to the use of Very Small Aperture Terminal systems at sea, industry officials said. " "While some customers simply come to MTN and ask for a communications link, "others are more sophisticated and say 'show me your license,'" something MTN currently cannot do, he said." > I am criticized by those that know me here for responding to you at > all. It is my opinion that allowing your statements to go unchallenged > could lead people who might greatly benefit from mobile satellite > internet to wonder if you are right. Hopefully now they will neither > take your word or mine, but go out and look at what is really going on > for themselves. Bingo! >They won't have to look far. It is a rare large RV > park anymore without one or more persons actually using mobile > satellite internet, and most are quite willing to explain what they do > and how they do it. But is it legal? > Finally, I have no financial stake in this. I do not sell anything > related to satellite internet, and I do not have any ownership or > other financial relationship with anyone who does, although I have > many friends in the business from manufacturers to installers. For those genuinely interested here's the FCC license application for your VSAT set: http://www.fcc.gov/Forms/Form312/312Fill.pdf It clearly says it applies to all satellite stations, even receive only. The FCC will even send you the station requirements. If your illegal satellite system is attached to the RV, the entire RV can be confiscated. Insurance won't cover it because it was confiscated doing an illegal activity. In summary I've shown that even the low VSAT signal levels are fully capable of exceeding exposure limits. I've shown that licensing is required. I've shown that FCC rules and regulations do apply to VSAT systems, especially regarding interference to other systems and human safety. I've shown cases of fines being imposed for not operating with a valid license. What has Don shown? All I can figure is that his argument is that since others break the law and jeopardize safety it's ok for you to do it too. He claimed the exposure limits (EIRP) was too low to be a concern. I showed otherwise. It's his word against written law, standard engineering calculations, FCC action letters and other verifiable information. Call the FCC and find out for yourself. Pastor William Rennick First, a correction to some of Rennick's back of the envelope calculations. The EIRP of 80 watts is not the actual power in the antenna beam, it is an equivalent. So you have only 4 watts in the beam, not 80. The maximum whole body exposure is 1/20th of your estimate. The exposure limitations are not for whole body, they are for exposure of any area. Standing in the antenna beam of a 4 watt dish is difficult to do if it is pointed at the satellite, so those type of calculations are not realistic. One has to estimate the exposure levels in the near field to be realistic. For the uplink feedhorn transmitting 4 watts at 14 GHz, the exposure level is 46 watts/cm^2. That's because we're looking at 4 watts coming out of a 1/2 inch ID feedhorn. That exposure level is over 46,000 times the 1/2 hour limit. If exposure time x exposure level = constant, then the level is exceeded with just a .04 second exposure. Those are serious levels. More later. The exposure level at the dish surface (.6 meter dish, 4 watts) is 1.4 mW/cm^2, which is still above the exposure limit. Lesson here: don't put your head between the horn and the dish. As far as the lockout is concerned, it is easily fooled. The system looks for a downlink lock. Since the uplink and downlink feedhorns are laterally, rather than coaxially, located it is possible to place your hand over the uplink horn only and still get downlink lock. Your will burn up your hand doing so. The scenario of a child looking into the transmitter and suffering eye damage is a possible though remote likelihood. Placing the dish on the ground in the vicinity of RV's is a potential for problems. The corrugated sides of many RV's are periodic reflecting surfaces and can redirect the uplink signal to an unwanted target, for example: people or satellites. The dish may couple into the side of the RV and use the RV as an antenna. I refer the reader to flyswatter antenna and passive reflectors: http://www.g3pho.free-online.co.uk/microwaves/flyswatter1.html So what's the bottom line? 1. The exposure levels between the dish and horn can be very high and dangerous. 2. The lockout doesn't always work. 3. Place your dish on the roof or up on a pole for best signals, best safety and least interference. 4. All dishes are licensed. For consumer oriented products in a fixed location, the licenses are usually held by the manufacturer. 5. There are indeed federal regulations regarding the operation of dishes. 6. Err on the side of safety, a blind or cataract inflicted child is tough to live with for the rest of your life and even tougher and longer on theirs. Don't be a cowboy! BC >One has to estimate the exposure levels in the near field to be >realistic. For the uplink feedhorn transmitting 4 watts at 14 GHz, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >level = constant, then the level is exceeded with just a .04 second >exposure. Those are serious levels. More later. Ben, I appreciate your comments. There are issues, though that make it tough for those of you who clearly have no experience with these dishes when you start doing theoretical calculations. The above is the beginning here. I'll get to the 4 watts in a second, but for starters, there is nowhere that you can possibly get close to the waveguide with a body part, and the waveguide is the only place that has that roughly 1/2 inch ID. >The exposure level at the dish surface (.6 meter dish, 4 watts) is 1.4 >mW/cm^2, which is still above the exposure limit. Lesson here: don't >put your head between the horn and the dish. Somewhere the "reverend" introduced this notion of 4 watts into a .6 meter dish. Not sure how/where he came up with that, but it does not exist in the real world of consumer internet. The inherent scatter issues with a dish that small make high wattage very problematical. Most of us use HughesNet as our provider. They use a proprietary BUC, incompatible with all other services, and they make only two versions of it, 1 watt, and 2 watts. The smallest dish is .74 meters, and is not sold standard with anything but the 1 watt transmitter. A 2-watt is sometimes used after-market on the .74, but there is minimal advantage. The 2-watt is standard on the .98 meter and 1.2 meter dishes. iDirect systems, not exactly consumer, but used by some consumers, uses 3 and 4-watt transmitters, typically on 1.2 or 1.8 meter dishes although you may occasionally see them on .98s. >As far as the lockout is concerned, it is easily fooled. The system >looks for a downlink lock. Since the uplink and downlink feedhorns are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >transmitter and suffering eye damage is a possible though remote >likelihood. The error here is that the single feedhorn on these consumer dishes is ALWAYS coaxial, never lateral. The idea of a lateral arrangement had never occurred to me, as I've never seen one, and they just don't exist in "our" world. Would you be interested in re-visiting your mathematical conclusions based on the above, plus the beam size at feedhorn front on the smallest feedhorn being around 6 sq inches (it is more than that on all the dishes above .74 meters)? --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty If this is the system they are using: http://www.ssi-iraq.com/kb_vsat_terms.html Then the feedhorn is neither coaxial or colateral. The same feedhorn is used for uplink and downlink. The isolation between the uplink and downlink is obtained through the rthogonal modes used in the combiner waveguide and a tx rejection filter on the LNB. So Coppi is wrong about the lockout being tricked. The uplink and downlinks use the same horn, if either one is blocked so is the other. The feedhorn is a circular corrugated horn. The horn narrows the beamwidth of the open ended waveguide feeding it. Since uplink and downlink frequencies are different the horn is probably optimized for the uplink, which is a higher frequency than the downlink. The corrugation are used to get bandwidth and maintain polarization. The horn beam on the uplink is shaped so it doesn't spill over the dish much. That means the downlink side over illuminates the dish, which is no big problem. The power density across the horn is one the order of .1 watt/cm^2, 100 times the exposure guideline. Coppi is right, keep your head out from between the feedhorn and dish and mount it up high. The Hughes website for Hughesnet, Direcway still says licensed installers are required to install it. If that is the front end used on VSATs on RVs I would say it is relatively safe to set the thing up yourself. If there is a lockout, it is highly unlikely to cause interference with other satellites. I would concern myself with the signals coming off of the dish causing implanted medical devices such as pacemakers and defibrillators to malfunction. Those medical devices are not even tested at the frequencies and power levels generated by VSAT dishes. As is documented here: http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/microwave_ovens.html Microwave ovens have caused problems with implanted medical devices. Microwave leakage levels are lower than those of VSAT and are much more controlled. I strongly recommend anyone with an implanted medical device to stay away from VSAT dishes. Pastor William Rennick > Pastor William Rennick PhD There's an old joke about a Southern Baptist minister who always ended his sermons with the phrase "BSMSPHD." When finally asked by a congregation member the meaning of that closding set of letters, he replied, "Well, I'll tell you brother, the MS means 'more of the same' and the PHD means 'piled higher and deeper.'" Ken Harrison BM,MA >> Pastor William Rennick PhD > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Ken Harrison > BM,MA You are blessed! Amen! Pastor William Rennick >>FCC regulations "exemptions" for internet satellite dishes apply to >>dishes [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" > towing '07 Jeep Liberty Don't sell the good pastor short. He might be a man of the cloth but his passion is electronics and radio transmitters in particular. Few people are more knowledgeable about antennas and transmitters than this pastor. Best you swallow your pride and false beliefs and listen to the man. He know of which he speaks. And, that's the truth. Shad O'Shay >Don't sell the good pastor short. He might be a man of the cloth but his >passion is electronics and radio transmitters in particular. Few people [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Shad O'Shay The pastor is likeneed to the idiots that cling to the myth that they need not pay taxes. BUT, in the courts, they lose every time. That is the final line. >>Don't sell the good pastor short. He might be a man of the cloth but >>his [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > need not pay taxes. BUT, in the courts, they lose every time. That > is the final line. Provided your income doesn't come from a church. Churches are exempt from income taxes. Maybe the Good Pastor is smarter than you think. Shad O'Shay >I was wondering if it's feasible to switch from > cable tv to satellite for home service and then have a second dish that > I could bring on our RV trips to get channels. Hi Jerry I bought an extra dish and tripod just for the rv. I grab my home satellite receiver and away I go. (I'm using the Dish 500 system.) Have had no problems at all. Paul >> I was wondering if it's feasible to switch from >> cable tv to satellite for home service and then have a second dish that >> I could bring on our RV trips to get channels. I have DirecTV at one of my hice, a cabin in the Sierra foothills. I was able to get the East and West Coast network feeds, absent any local channels. My only problem was that the nearest PBS channel objected, stating that I could get it on the local cable. So, alas, I do without PBS (much is the pity, since that is the best programming available). When we are to take a motorhome trip, I bring the cabin's receiver with me, and set up a portable dish to receive the signals whilst on the road. I don't know about Dish Network, but DirecTV has a very easy user interface that provides the proper headings for one's own dish, depending on its geographical location. As to the matter of dish alignment, if one can learn to detect the pitches associated with "signal strength," then one can optimize his dish set-up without having to run back and forth to look at the TV. The lowest signal strength is a low (middle) "C". As signal strength (dish alignment) improves, the pitch goes up an octave, then a perfect fifth, then a perfect fourth (a "C" two octaves higher than heard at the outset). When you are are on one of these last two steps, you will be able to receive clear transmission from the satellite. Remember that if you do not have East and West Coast network feeds, you will be unable to receive you "local" channels at a distance greater than about 250 miles from your home. kh |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.