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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / September 2007More propane danger
Hot air balloon burns and crashes. . . Video available at site: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8R85T280&show_article=1 Harry Harris  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Hot air balloon burns and crashes. . . Video available at site: > > http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8R85T280&show_article=1 > > Harry Harris Wow, and look how it burned up an RV in the parking lot. You know, you're right about propane being very dangerous. But, I wish you'd stop telling these bully RVers about it. As far as I'm concerned the more of them that blow up the better. That will be less of them trying to intimidate cyclists using the road. Slipstream Chipotle Rules! Shad O'Shay >> Hot air balloon burns and crashes. . . Video available at site: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Shad O'Shay Isn't that a little harsh, Mr. O'Shay? You shouldn't wish harm on people like that. Sometimes what goes around comes around. Greg >>> Hot air balloon burns and crashes. . . Video available at site: >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Greg What's worse, wishing harm or doing harm? Just today when I was out training some jerk in an RV had more than enough room to share the road. But what did he do? He layed on his horn and actually drifted over the white line to get as close to me as he possible could without hitting me. I was riding on the paved shoulder on a bridge. That's how most of these RVers are. Obnoxious, low-life redneck bullies. Shad O'Shay > Hot air balloon burns and crashes. . . Video available at site: > > http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8R85T280&show_article=1 > > Harry Harris I believe that methane is much more of a danger than propane. Propane is held in a strong steel tank and is only a danger if it leaks. Methane, however, is constantly seeping from the black/gray water tanks. Methane is a greenhouse gas in addition to being highly explosive. Glory! Pastor William Rennick > Hot air balloon burns and crashes. . . Video available at site: > > http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8R85T280&show_article=1 > > Harry Harris I like propane. I don't want to go back to rubbing two sticks together. >> Hot air balloon burns and crashes. . . Video available at site: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I like propane. I don't want to go back to rubbing two sticks > together. Electricity is better. You can get if free from the sun using photovoltaics. It's safer, cheaper, more versatile, more environmentally friendly, and you can use it to start your RV. If propane's so great try starting your RV with propane. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Electricity is better. You can get if free from the sun using > photovoltaics. It's safer, cheaper, more versatile, more environmentally > friendly, and you can use it to start your RV. If propane's so great try > starting your RV with propane. So what is the typical cost for solar powered A/C unit or microwave oven since you say its cheap. >> Electricity is better. You can get if free from the sun using >> photovoltaics. It's safer, cheaper, more versatile, more [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So what is the typical cost for solar powered A/C unit or microwave oven > since you say its cheap. Something is wrong. Why is Harris so dedicated to eliminating propane from our RVs? He must have lost of money for an all electric MH. Hope his generator doesn't run out of diesel. >> Electricity is better. You can get if free from the sun using >> photovoltaics. It's safer, cheaper, more versatile, more [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So what is the typical cost for solar powered A/C unit or microwave > oven since you say its cheap. You can easily install six, 100 watt, Evergreen panels on the top of your RV. Combine this with a battery bank of six, 27 size, 12 volt deep cycle batteries, a charge controller and a 4000 watt pure sine wave inverter and you'll be out of pocket about 24 hundred bucks for the photovoltaics, about a hundred bucks for the charge controller, about six hundred bucks for the batteries and about 300 bucks for the inverter. So for about 3,500 bucks you get electricity to power your appliances and your a/c. The photovoltaics are guaranteed for 20 years, the batteries have a life of six or so years. You can "dry camp" anywhere the sun shines in style. This sounds like a lot but keep a tally of all the propane you buy, all the campsite hook-up fees you pay and other costs associated with living the old-fashioned, ungreen, pollution-producing, RV lifestyle and most people would conclude, why not do more than just pay lip service to being environmentally friendly. Why not put my money where my mouth is? Wilbur Hubbard I see a potential problem with this setup. Your 600 watts of charge (that only happens in the sun) will not keep up with an air conditioner of any size. Especially since the A/C has to run at night also. steve > You can easily install six, 100 watt, Evergreen panels on the top of your > RV. Combine this with a battery bank of six, 27 size, 12 volt deep cycle [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Wilbur Hubbard >I see a potential problem with this setup. Your 600 watts of charge >(that only happens in the sun) will not keep up with an air conditioner >of any size. Especially since the A/C has to run at night also. > > steve Storage, my boy, storage. That's what batteries do; they store energy. Six 135 amp hour batteries equals 800 some odd amp hours. That's one amp for eight hundred hours or ten amps for 80 hours or 100 amps for eight hours. Invert the 12v to 120 volt and you have to divide the amps by 10 for ten amps at 120VAC for eight hours. A small air window air conditioner draws less than that. And unless you live in the Sahara desert you don't need to run air conditioning 24/7. But, the greater point is how much air conditioning can propane do? You can supplement the charging of the batteries with you alternator or with your genset. But the bottom line is you can be energy independent unless you try to live in your RV with all the luxuries you have when plugged into the grid in your home. Wilbur Hubbard Math my boy, math. You're all wrong on the math. Say for instance if my a/c only draws 10a. (i think it's higher) and i run it for 16 hours a day. That's 19,200. Now take your 600w charge rate and multiply that by a very liberal 14 hour sun day, that's only 8,400. You'll run your batteries down over the first nite. It doesn't matter if you have a semi load of batteries, if you can't put back what you took out. But i hear ya on the other points. steve > Storage, my boy, storage. That's what batteries do; they store energy. Six > 135 amp hour batteries equals 800 some odd amp hours. That's one amp for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Wilbur Hubbard > Math my boy, math. You're all wrong on the math. Say for instance if > my a/c only draws 10a. (i think it's higher) and i run it for 16 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > But i hear ya on the other points. Good on the other points. Now, perhaps I can supply you with some figures that will sway your opinon about amp draw. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_04275050000P?vName=Appliances&cName=Air Conditioners&sName=Single%20Room%20Units Check out the specs on this air conditioner. Note it uses 4.9 amps when cooling. And keep in mind that it claims to cool a 10x40 foot room space - more than enough for a typical smaller RV - so it won't be running the compressor but about half the time. So the approximately five amp draw will average out to be more like 2.5 amps per hour times 24 hours or 60 amp hours. The battery bank will provide 800 amp hour at 12vdc or 80 amp hours at 120VAC inverted.. Let's look realistically at the photovoltaic output. Give it 6 hours a day to output the max and don't even count the other hours when it's doing less than that. That's six hundred watts times six or 3600 watts. Watts divided by volts = amps. That = 30 amp hours a day. So your are right. One would need 12, 100 watt panels to run the air conditioner 24/7. But, like I stated before, it is rarely necessary to do so. And during the times it was you could supplement the charging with a genset or high output alternator on your RV's main engine. Wilbur Hubbard > steve > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >> Wilbur Hubbard >> Math my boy, math. You're all wrong on the math. Say for instance >> if my a/c only draws 10a. (i think it's higher) and i run it for 16 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > approximately five amp draw will average out to be more like 2.5 amps > per hour times 24 hours or 60 amp hours. Not exactly: 1. The claims are made for standard "Stick/Brick" constructions with several times the amount of insulation within the average RV. The lack of heavy-duty insulation means that a "home" unit that will cool a small room in a house will *not* have much effect upon the internal temperature of an RV. For an example, our 8.5'x38' FW requires a minimum of 28K BTU/hr cooling to maintain a minimum 25F differential between ambient and internal temperatures in spite of the fact that it's one of the more heavily- insulated units. 2. Don't forget that even a "deep-cycle" battery won't supply 12V continuously and, as a result, will suffer more current draw as the voltage decreases. 3. An inverter only supplies its rated output voltage *at its rated input voltage*. > The battery bank will provide 800 amp hour at 12vdc or 80 amp hours at > 120VAC inverted.. More likely less: you've neglected the power loss due to the inverter itself. FWIW, you will probably only get 400AH from that bank unless you plan to replace all of the batteries frequently. > Let's look realistically at the photovoltaic output. Give it 6 hours a > day to output the max and don't even count the other hours when it's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > do so. And during the times it was you could supplement the charging > with a genset or high output alternator on your RV's main engine. You must not "camp" in hot weather: 100F+ temperatures for weeks/months at a time. <g> If you're going to run a generator then why waste money on the Solar Panels? The only excuse for the horrendous fiscal outlay for panels and batteries is to avoid the need for a generator... > Wilbur Hubbard > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >>> >>> Wilbur Hubbard Ok, i hear ya. But be advised, we had a 5500 btu little 120v window unit in our 11' cab over camper. It didn't do the job. I thought we were talking roof top rv ac units. steve >> Math my boy, math. You're all wrong on the math. Say for instance if my >> a/c only draws 10a. (i think it's higher) and i run it for 16 hours a [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >>> >>> Wilbur Hubbard Solar units are notoriously inefficient. Even in Arizona sun during the summer, aimed perfectly, you only get 70% efficiency or so.when panels are mounted flat on the roof, the efficiency goes down like a rocket. >> Math my boy, math. You're all wrong on the math. Say for instance if my >> a/c only draws 10a. (i think it's higher) and i run it for 16 hours a [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] >>> >>> Wilbur Hubbard > Math my boy, math. You're all wrong on the math. Say for instance if my > a/c only draws 10a. (i think it's higher) and i run it for 16 hours a day. > That's 19,200. Your A/C startup is probably higher than 10a but I doubt the compressor will be running 100% full time. Should be far less. Even if the duty cycle is a rather high 50%, per your numbers the batteries would last. right now, we are living in our rv. Believe me, the compressor runs about 16 hours a day with the stat on 78. Hit the microwave button and it pops a 20a breaker i have it on. So, it's running over 10a continuous. s >> Math my boy, math. You're all wrong on the math. Say for instance if my >> a/c only draws 10a. (i think it's higher) and i run it for 16 hours a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > will be running 100% full time. Should be far less. Even if the duty > cycle is a rather high 50%, per your numbers the batteries would last. > right now, we are living in our rv. Believe me, the compressor runs about > 16 hours a day with the stat on 78. Hit the microwave button and it pops a > 20a breaker i have it on. So, it's running over 10a continuous. I'd have your A/C serviced or you are staying in 100F+ temps! 93 - 96 most days lately. s >> right now, we are living in our rv. Believe me, the compressor runs >> about 16 hours a day with the stat on 78. Hit the microwave button and >> it pops a 20a breaker i have it on. So, it's running over 10a >> continuous. > > I'd have your A/C serviced or you are staying in 100F+ temps! > This sounds like a lot but keep a tally of all the propane you buy, all > the campsite hook-up fees you pay and other costs associated with living > the old-fashioned, ungreen, pollution-producing, RV lifestyle and most > people would conclude, why not do more than just pay lip service to > being environmentally friendly. Why not put my money where my mouth is? It would take quite a number of years to make up your $3500 figure. I have number paid extra for electricity at an RV park. Yes, there are no hook up spots but generally those have been for tent campers or are cramped small spots etc. Not the sort of spots I'd want anyways. I have seen a few parks charge extra for 50amp service but it's peanuts. As for propane costs I fill my two 20lb tanks for about $9 each. I fill them up 1 or 2 times per year. |
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