Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / October 2007
ONAN 4k
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st - 23 Sep 2007 23:07 GMT i have a 1984 onan 4 k i just bought.. the selenoid was wired by an idiot... so i need to get the schematic to correct that... but my primary question is where is the starter????i try arcing the solenoid and nothing but sparks.. so i need to start there.. thanks
Alan Robinson - 24 Sep 2007 05:38 GMT >i have a 1984 onan 4 k i just bought.. the selenoid was wired by an > idiot... so i need to get the schematic to correct that... but my > primary question is where is the starter????i try arcing the solenoid > and nothing but sparks.. so i need to start there.. > thanks It would help a LOT if you could give the full model and spec of the genset - Onan has made a lot of different variations over the years. That said, if your genset is a BF or BFA, there isn't a separate starter - the generator has both AC and DC windings, and the DC windings act as a starter when starting, then generate DC for control voltage and battery charging once running. And the starter solenoid - although it LOOKS like what's commonly called a 'Ford-style' starter solenoid - is connected differently internally, so you may have a situation where someone didn't understand how it worked and replaced it with a soldnoid he got at the local AutoZone or NAPA - then messed up the connections because the NEW solenoid didn't work, either...
The service manual - with schematics, plus a LOT of other information -should still be available. You can order direct from Onan's website http://www.funroads.com then follow appropriate links - or let me know what the model/spec is and I'll try to give you info on what should be hooked up where.
Alan
st - 25 Sep 2007 02:59 GMT > >i have a 1984 onan 4 k i just bought.. the selenoid was wired by an > > idiot... so i need to get the schematic to correct that... but my [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Alan mod 4.0bfa-1r/16004c
thanks ... ur help is greatly appreciated.....
Alan Robinson - 25 Sep 2007 03:23 GMT >> >i have a 1984 onan 4 k i just bought.. the selenoid was wired by an >> > idiot... so i need to get the schematic to correct that... but my [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > thanks ... ur help is greatly appreciated..... Don't have the manual/schematic for that one here at home - will look it up at work tomorrow and get back with more info tomorrow night.
Alan
st - 25 Sep 2007 03:36 GMT > >> "st" <shane...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > - Show quoted text - thanks so much.. this will be soo much help... btw.. i think the solenoid is a car one that the idiot who owned it b4 replaced...... i guess u already know this.. but its kinda confusing.. all the smaller wires connected to it are the same white color....i am good with a volt ohm meter if this helps ID wires... thanks
Alan Robinson - 26 Sep 2007 04:36 GMT >> >> "st" <shane...@gmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > wires connected to it are the same white color....i am good with a > volt ohm meter if this helps ID wires... thanks Ok, the first thing to do is draw yourself a diagram and tag where the wires are now, then take all connections loose from the solenoid. Set your meter to read ohms, then check the following: You should have continuity from the 'S' (left) small terminal to the 'I' (right) small terminal - don't have exact figures, but probably from 5 to 15 ohms. This is the solenoid coil - the part that makes things move inside the solenoid when DC voltage is applied across it. You should NOT have continuity from either small terminal to ground (which would mean it's a Ford starter solenoid), or from either small terminal to the right (battery) large terminal (which would mean it's an Onan solenoid, but the wrong one for your set).
The part number of the correct solenoid is 307-1617, probably about 40-45 at your friendly local Onan dealer.
Once you have the correct solenoid in place, the following are the correct hookups:
Left large terminal - one LARGE wire that goes into the generator end. One smaller wire that goes to R1, a 150 ohm 5 watt resistor in the control box (going to look kinda like a tootsie roll with two terminals, mounted vertically on a screw in the bottom of the control box). One smaller wire that goes to E1, the electric choke mechanism on the carburetor.
Right large terminal - one Large wire going to the battery +. One small wire with a diode (CR1) in line, going to R2, the charge resistor mounted in the generator end. This diode will be a flat chip, about the size of a chiclet, with 2 spade terminals coming out of opposite sides, and normally would be inside some sleeving. One small wire going to a terminal on F2, the right hand (ignition) fuse on the control panel.
Left small terminal - one small wire going to terminal 3 (the left-hand terminal) of the start/stop switch. One small wire going to terminal 85 of K2, the left-hand relay in the bottom of the control box.
Right small terminal - one small wire going to terminal 87A of K3, the right-hand relay in the bottom of the control box.
Some general thoughts: Onan is very good about labeling wires - all of your original wires should be marked, assuming the markings haven't been worn off or painted over. The markings are -printed- on the insulation, near the connection, and identify what -this- end is connected to as well as what the -other- end of the wire should be hooked to. For example, the wire from the right small terminal should have K1-I / K3-87A printed on the insulation near the starter solenoid, and K3-87A / K1-I printed on the wire near the K3 relay. The wire from the left large terminal (SI) going to the electric choke should be labeled K1-SI / E1 near the solenoid, and E1 / K1-SI near the choke.
The exciter-cranked sets, like this one, require large battery cables, a large batttery in good condition, and good connections to crank - since the starter is part of the generator, it doesn't have any gear reduction to allow the starter to spin at a high rpm. It's also possible that, if the genset has been sitting for a long time, you have tarnish built up on the commutator bars and brush tips - which will reduce the available cranking power. And - most importantly - since the AC windings and DC windings are both on the same rotor, a short on the AC output will make it almost impossible to crank. I suggest that you first try cranking the genset with the spark plugs out, after making SURE that the AC windings are disconnected from the output wiring and insulated so they don't short (in the top rear of the control box - the partition will slip up and remove after you loosen the two bolts holding it). If it cranks ok, then hook up the AC output leads and try again. If it's still ok, then put the spark plugs back in and see if you can get it started.
Just for future reference, if you run into problems - is the genset currently mounted in an rv, or do you have it out where you can get to things?
Alan
st - 27 Sep 2007 03:17 GMT > >> "st" <shane...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 133 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Alan.. thanks for the in depth coverage on this topic.... you rock.. currently its in the RV but i plan to remove it and go thru it if these test do not prove results... i just hope i didnt screw up the windings when i arced the 2 big wires at teh solenoid... i arced them like when u start a tractor at the solenoid... just passing the positive current at the 2 big wires after grounding the unit....you sound as if you are well versed on this generator.. i really appreciate your help... ill be back home sunday and will repost my results sunday evening... thanks again for all of your great help!!!
Alan Robinson - 27 Sep 2007 03:47 GMT > Alan.. thanks for the in depth coverage on this topic.... you rock.. > currently its in the RV but i plan to remove it and go thru it if [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > appreciate your help... ill be back home sunday and will repost my > results sunday evening... thanks again for all of your great help!!! If I understand correctly that you jumped from the battery + lead to the large lead going into the generator and got a lot of sparks - but DIDN'T leave them connected - then any possible damage to the windings was there before you tried, what you did wouldn't hurt them (remember, the windings are trying to get a 43 cu in engine turning without the advantage of any gear reduction - the initial surge to get one of these to start turning is over 100 amps...). Will be waiting to hear what you find.
Alan
Appraisal.Queen@gmail.com - 27 Sep 2007 15:13 GMT > > Alan.. thanks for the in depth coverage on this topic.... you rock.. > > currently its in the RV but i plan to remove it and go thru it if [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Alan yup.. thats what i did... sparks, but bot even a click... sooo... either the windings are without insulation now ,and fried ; or the engine is locked up from sitting (and now i need to remove the spark plug and try it..)...or my battery doesnt have enough jucie...so i didnt do anything other than what would have been done to start the thing somewhat normally correct?
thanks shane
Alan Robinson - 28 Sep 2007 00:10 GMT >> > Alan.. thanks for the in depth coverage on this topic.... you rock.. >> > currently its in the RV but i plan to remove it and go thru it if [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > thanks > shane Yes - the solenoid is a switch that connects the battery + to the generator windings, so you were doing the same thing as the solenoid does - just that the sparks were visible <g>.
Alan
st - 28 Sep 2007 01:49 GMT > <Appraisal.Qu...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > - Show quoted text - thanks for the response.. stay posted with me on this, by sunday night i should have more information.. right now im in the keys working and fishing till then... thanks
st - 30 Sep 2007 23:16 GMT > > <Appraisal.Qu...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > - Show quoted text - ok i got it to turn over, even with the spark plugs in...i undid all the wires for the solenoid... im gonna order a new solenoid now... until then.. what wires need 12 volts to get it started??? cause im gettin no fire right now i dont think.. i guess one of those white wires need 12 volts to turn the coil on... thanks
st - 30 Sep 2007 23:55 GMT > > > <Appraisal.Qu...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > - Show quoted text - ok i figured that one out.. i just ran a wire from the pos on the solenoid to the batt... and poured gas in the carb... it started, and i got 110 out of the thing!! so i take it there is no throttle and it controlls the voltage on its own??? would i be a good idea to put some sort of newer type of voltage regulator in line???
Alan Robinson - 01 Oct 2007 04:34 GMT >> > > <Appraisal.Qu...@gmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > controlls the voltage on its own??? would i be a good idea to put some > sort of newer type of voltage regulator in line??? The 'throttle' is controlled by a mechanical governor mechanism - unless someone has messed with things, it should be set to run at about 62 hz / 128v no load, and 58 hz / 116v at 4 kw load. The governor opens or closes the throttle as necessary to try to maintain the generator at 'governed' speed - note that with the engine stopped, the governor will have the throttle wide open - then as the engine starts and comes up to speed (nominally 1800 rpm) the governor closes the throttle - with no load, the throttle should be almost closed. This type of genset doesn't have - or need - an electronic voltage regulator. The generator itself is self-regulating, the voltage changes above from no-load to full load are because the engine is running slightly slower under full load - in this case because you can't adjust a relatively simple mechanical governor to be TOO sensitive, or you'll have a genset that will continually be overshooting above/below the desired speed and never settle on a constant speed. If the genset is running properly and the governor is properly adjusted, the output voltage will stay within acceptable limits - the only problems I've seen are where someone 'didn't think it sounded right' and started playing with the carburetor or governor - I've had them come in running at 2100+ rpm (which gives about 170v output....).
Alan
st - 01 Oct 2007 12:27 GMT > >> > > <Appraisal.Qu...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 104 lines] > > - Show quoted text - sounds great... i wont be messin with the throttle.. i understand how it works now... i think things are going to be ok...ill get that solenoid this week and let you know how its going.... i have heard they only work at 1/4 tank or more.. is that determined by the depth or the fuel hose in the tank? i dont see a fuel filter.. i guess it wouldnt hurt to put one inline... thanks again
Alan Robinson - 02 Oct 2007 03:12 GMT > sounds great... i wont be messin with the throttle.. i understand how > it works now... i think things are going to be ok...ill get that > solenoid this week and let you know how its going.... i have heard > they only work at 1/4 tank or more.. is that determined by the depth > or the fuel hose in the tank? i dont see a fuel filter.. i guess it > wouldnt hurt to put one inline... thanks again If it was properly installed, the fuel for the genset will be fed from a 'dip tube', a separate fuel pickup line going into the fuel tank from the top and ending somewhere above the bottom. Usually, these are arranged so that the last 1/4 to 1/8 tank is below the end of the dip tube - so if you run it that low, the genset won't get fuel after it has used up what's in the line. This is done so that you won't run your tank completely dry while camping - which would make it somewhat hard to drive the rv to a gas station to get more gas <g>.
There is a fuel filter (actually, a filter screen) built into the electric fuel pump - but if no one's taken it apart to clean the screen (which is likely), DON'T do it unless you HAVE to - the gasket is old enough by now that it'll probably come apart, and is almost impossible to get. So yes, it's not a bad idea to put an inline filter before the fuel pump...
Alan
st - 02 Oct 2007 14:44 GMT > > sounds great... i wont be messin with the throttle.. i understand how > > it works now... i think things are going to be ok...ill get that [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Alan Alan, you are such a wealth of info on this subject... man im tellin you what, if you ever need a hard drive recovered, just let me know; thats what i do... ill help u out anytime... my supplier is tellin me the solenoid is back ordered.. im gonna have to call around... ill puta clear filter in line and see how she runs... right now i will have to plug in the big plug for 110 in the rv into the female plug in the hole where i store the main shore cord at.. i have seen some kind of switches in reading rv parts magazines that do that automatically.. are they worth it? as far as a remote start from the cab, i dont see a switch inside the rv but i may be missing it..how would i wire that ? would i just get a momentary switch like what is on the genset and match up the connections?
st - 02 Oct 2007 18:59 GMT > > "st" <shane...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > - Show quoted text - ok.. so i found the solenoid at the onan dealer here in tampa.. 30$.... way cheaper than anywhere else and in stock... i used your wiring instructions and got her fired up.. im using a 1 gal gas tank for now till i get 1/4 tank or better in the main tank.. i tightened up the wires goin into the box of the onan.. and the switch up front by the hour meter(452 hrs btw) cranked her up.... now i have another question.. wich battery should i hook up the main power wire to? im using the emain engine bat right now cause the house batteries are not good.... should i go with two 6 volts in series for the house, or keep two 12 volts in paralel??? thaks again... we got her runnin hoss!!!! 113 solid volts under full load.... :)
Matt Colie - 02 Oct 2007 22:52 GMT > ok.. so I found the solenoid at the Onan dealer here in Tampa.. > 30$.... way cheaper than anywhere else and in stock... i used your [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > two 12 volts in parallel??? thanks again... we got her running hoss!!!! > 113 solid volts under full load.... :) Shane:
That is good news.
Next, by main power wire you mean the crank power for the Onan?
I am personally opposed to having anything on the main engine battery but the main engine.
Start by thinking - "If this battery goes dead, just how screwed am I?" If the house battery goes dead and you can't crank the APU/Genset/Genny, no big whoop. Most RV's charge the house and start battery when the engine runs. Most don't charge the engine battery from the generator or shore power. Hint - about 15 minutes at a high idle (shut down everything non-essential) will put in enough power to crank a 2 cylinder, 4kw Onan. Viola - you look like you know what you are doing.
One battery is better the two in parallel. The two in parallel don't always give you *2. If one goes bad, you got nothing. Golf cart batteries or a single 4d or 8d (~170#) is the best way.
Glad you are on-line
Matt Colie
Alan Robinson - 03 Oct 2007 04:14 GMT >> Alan, >> you are such a wealth of info on this subject... man im tellin you [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > two 12 volts in paralel??? thaks again... we got her runnin hoss!!!! > 113 solid volts under full load.... :) Good to hear you've got it running!
If you have the space, two golf cart batteries in series are probably the most cost-effective choice for house batteries. Whatever you get, make sure it - or they - are deep cycle batteries (golf cart batteries are - by design). A normal 'starting' battery - what you have in your truck or car - is designed to supply a lot of power in a short period of time to crank and start an engine, then be immediately recharged. They won't last long if you use them the way 'house' batteries are intended - fairly lengthy slow discharge to half charge or so, then charged back up. More info on batteries at batteryfaq.org
There are three basic ways of connecting the genset to the rv's electrical system: The way yours is now, with the genset output to a receptacle in the cord storage compartment: A manual switch, to connect the rv's electrical system to either the shore cord or the generator: Or, an automatic transfer switch that senses generator output and connects the rv to the generator whenever the generator is providing power (generally after a 30-45 second delay). Whichever is used, the basic idea is that you can't have shore power and generator power both hooked to the rv's systems at the same time.
Personally, I'd go with what you have now - it's simple, cheap, foolproof, and essentially maintenance-free. If you only unplug the shore power cord from that receptacle when you're going to plug into something else, and plug it back into the receptacle when you're putting the cord back in the compartment, then you're ready for 99 percent of the situations where you might want to power the rv with the genset. (The only instance I can think of where a manual or automatic transfer switch might be an advantage would be if you were plugged in at an rv park and they lost power / had low voltage problems - you wouldn't have to go outside to switch to gen power). I've seen too many 'no power from genset' problems that turned out to be 'fried component(s) in auto transfer switch' problems to really believe they're worth the expense - for me, at least. YMMV.
Alan
Will Sill - 03 Oct 2007 12:32 GMT I see where "Alan Robinson" <alr@bmi.net> contributed:
>There are three basic ways of connecting the genset to the rv's electrical >system: The way yours is now, with the genset output to a receptacle in the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >'fried component(s) in auto transfer switch' problems to really believe >they're worth the expense - for me, at least. YMMV. Allow me to butt in and strongly endorse Alan's recommendation. It's simple, reliable, and the safest method known. I realize some prefer the transfer switch, but I betchya one switch failure would be enough to convince them to go back to the KISS principle - Keep It Simple, ummm Sir.
Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Alan Robinson - 01 Oct 2007 04:19 GMT >> > <Appraisal.Qu...@gmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > wires need 12 volts to turn the coil on... > thanks The small white wire labeled K1-B+ / F2-2 (runs from the battery cable terminal of the starter solenoid to the 'ignition' fuse). Plus you'll have to hold the start/stop switch in 'start' while it's cranking, until it has started and is mostly up to speed. This will provide power to the ignition and fuel pump - thru relay K2 (crank ignition) while starting, then thru relay K3 (run ignition) once it switches to 'run' mode.
Alan
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