Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / October 2007
Dave in LV; I've Seen the Light! (But the bulb's gone now.)
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Dr.H@l0nf1r£$ - 23 Oct 2007 14:23 GMT Calling All Christians.
You say that the Bible is the true word of God, and it does not have any errors in it. Well, in that case please give me an account of the death of Jesus and his subsequent resurrection, without any discrepancies.
Now this is the mainstay of your religious beliefs, and highly appropriate as it is the feast of the Pagan Goddess Estre, Ishtar or Astarte, after whom Easter was originally named. The Goddess of Spring, whose Holy day was stolen by the Christians and used as the time when their God was supposed to have given his son as a Saviour.
What I want you to do is simple really. : From the 165 verses in the Bible that give an account of what happened beginning on, well, lets make it easy for you and say Easter Morning going through to the Ascension; give me a simple chronological statement of events , but miss nothing out that the Bible says happened. : Document where and when events occurred, and who said what and why.
Just to help you on your way I'll give you a few examples of what I need to see. :-
1.. Who were the women who visited the tomb? 2) What time did they visit the tomb? 3) What was the reason they went to the tomb? 4) Was the tomb open or closed when they arrived? 5) Who was already there? 6) Where exactly where they? 7) What did they say? Please also include the accounts given in Acts, not just the four accounts given by Matthew, Mark Luke and John. You can also include the mention Paul makes of events in Corinthians.Can YOU do this simple task as partial proof that the Bible is inerrant?
...
Before you embark upon this errand I feel I should let you in on something.
: It's an impossible quest, as the accounts contradict one another time and time again. Is this an error of translation? A case of Papal editing maybe? No, apparently not in this case. : The original Bible manuscripts used seem to be in contradiction with one another in the greek. : Now what should that say to you when looked at in the wider sense? Well if just this one piece of information has conflicting accounts from different writers, then surely all those writers must be errant in other details also. : This then throws into question the accuracy of the four Gospel accounts, and indeed the other Gospel accounts contained in the Nag Hammadi Library for that matter. The most glaring inaccuracy, and the one with the most serious implications is that of the Apostle Paul in Acts. Why? Paul reputedly wrote a large amount of the New Testament, on which a lot of past and modern-day Christian doctrine is based. This,then, throws into question the accuracy of a good part of the New Testament, and indeed brings suspicion upon the other unmentioned writers such as Timothy. Such glaring inaccuracies clearly demonstrate that the Bible is in no way divinely inspired by some infallible superdeity; in which case it leads us to ask the question of exactly how much of the writings are bourne of the writer's own political agenda?
Of course some of the writings have indeed been the subject of Papal editing both by omission and addition. But how much accuracy can we credit to even the original unedited, untranslated, writings. Seemingly from the foregoing, not a lot. It cartainly wouldn't be a publication in which I'd put my faith; and as for running my life by it, and/or building my core beliefs upon its teachings, forget it; I'd rather use Winnie the Pooh as my life-guide! (Although those countless sessions stood on a bridge over a river playing pooh-sticks would would be a gargantuanly unproductive waste of time.)
Stepping along the ladder of consequence as the ripples spread out from source, the entire fabric of modern Christianity shakes, cracks and a few pinnacles topple as if hit by an earthquake, under the waves made by these facts. - But this single insight alone is nothing compared with the sum total of facts, some of blatant forgery and deception, others of extreme violence and genocide, which go together to rock this pitiful control-religion to its foundations. ...But that's another story.
Ken - 23 Oct 2007 16:16 GMT On Oct 23, 6:23 am, "Dr.H@l0nf1r?$" <sha...@NOSPAM.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid> wrote: But that's another story.
Dave's a sissy boy!
Dave in Lake Villa - 23 Oct 2007 17:56 GMT Shazzam, For the sake of brevity, please just simply state your alleged Bible contradiction... succintly.., and you shall be given a detailed answer which demonstrates there is not a contradiction.
Thank you.
Dr.H@l0nf1r£$ - 23 Oct 2007 18:14 GMT > Shazzam, For the sake of brevity, please just simply state your > alleged Bible contradiction... succintly.., and you shall be given a > detailed answer which demonstrates there is not a contradiction. > > Thank you. Dimwitticus Maximus; for the sake of sanity simply read my post aagain; look up all accounts, realise contradictions, and try to worm your way out of it with lies and hypocrisy as you normally do. Perhaps you might saay that the Bible writers weren't true Christians and that only true Christians know what really happened?
Ken - 23 Oct 2007 20:18 GMT On Oct 23, 10:14 am, "Dr.H@l0nf1r?$" <sha...@NOSPAM.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> > Shazzam, For the sake of brevity, please just simply state your > > alleged Bible contradiction... succintly.., and you shall be given a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Bible writers weren't true Christians and that only true Christians know > what really happened? Sharron, why waste your time? All you're going to get from dimwitted dumbfuck dave is CCPed crap from some other religiously deluded individual that saz: "There can't be any biblical errors cause I say so"
Dan Listermann - 23 Oct 2007 20:33 GMT >> Shazzam, For the sake of brevity, please just simply state your >> alleged Bible contradiction... succintly.., and you shall be given a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that the Bible writers weren't true Christians and that only true > Christians know what really happened? I suspect, in the end, there is only one true Christian, Dave.
Dave in Lake Villa - 23 Oct 2007 23:38 GMT shazza@NOSPAM.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid (Dr.H@l0nf1r£$) Dave in Lake Villa wrote: Shazzam, For the sake of brevity, please just simply state your alleged Bible contradiction... succintly.., and you shall be given a detailed answer which demonstrates there is not a contradiction. Thank you.
"Dimwitticus Maximus; for the sake of sanity simply read my post aagain; look up all accounts, realise contradictions, and try to worm your way out of it with lies and hypocrisy as you normally do. Perhaps you might saay that the Bible writers weren't true Christians and that only true Christians know what really happened?"
REPLY: Shazz,
1. What have YOU done to try to find out the answer to this alleged contradiction that you pose ? Have you sat down with a Pastor , have you gone online, take a trip to your local Library, or sought out Christian based materials on the issue ?
2. What if it were shown you that this is not a contradiction and that there are NO contradictions in the Bible ... only misunderstandings and misconstruing by critics ; would this be the compelling evidence which you need to walk from Wiccan/Paganism/Witchcraft and give Jesus Christ your total devotion as your Lord and Saviour ?
3. If you answer 'No' to all of the above, then what makes you think you should put me and others on a wild goose chase for your sadistic pleasure ?
Regards, Max
Dr.H@l0nf1r£$ - 24 Oct 2007 01:46 GMT > shazza@NOSPAM.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid (Dr.H@l0nf1r£$) > Dave in Lake Villa wrote: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > REPLY: Shazz, *Shazza* is fine; it's what most people call me. Shazzam sounds like an eastern fake magician and Shazz sounds cheap.
> 1. What have YOU done to try to find out the answer to this alleged > contradiction that you pose ? I've been researching it on and off for the past year almost.
> Have you sat down with a Pastor, I want facts and unbiased honesty; not weird interpretations and excuses.
> have you gone online,
That's how I do most of my research as it happens.
> take a trip to your local Library, or sought out > Christian based materials on the issue ? Yes to all; and though I've found much fact-twisting and wriggling in some of the Christian materials I still have no satisfactory answer; which is why I'm throwing it at you.
> 2. What if it were shown you that this is not a contradiction and > that there are NO contradictions in the Bible ... only > misunderstandings and misconstruing by critics ; Like mistranslations you mean? Look you - The fact is that there *are* many glaring contradictions in the Bible. - Unless you use the Satanic Bible perhaps?
would this be the
> compelling evidence which you need to walk from > Wiccan/Paganism/Witchcraft and give Jesus Christ your total devotion > as your Lord and Saviour ? Not at all; but it would be fun to see you try to wriggle your way out of it. - If you could show me that there are no contradictions in the Bible then I'd show you that you were using a different Bible.
> 3. If you answer 'No' to all of the above, then what makes you think > you should put me and others on a wild goose chase for your sadistic > pleasure ? So you're saying then that it *is* in fact a wild goose chase because you are fully aware of the glaring contradictions I've highlighted - But you do have a cunning few lines of spiel which occasionally convince the odde halfwit otherwise. : Let's hear them then...
> Regards, Max Harry Harris - 24 Oct 2007 02:00 GMT | > shazza@NOSPAM.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid (Dr.H@l0nf1r£$) | > Dave in Lake Villa wrote: [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] | have a cunning few lines of spiel which occasionally convince the odde | halfwit otherwise. : Let's hear them then... It's not fair expecting somebody to prove there aren't any contradictions in the whole Bible. Instead you should write one down and ask why it *isn't* a contradiction. Most good Christians can and probably would be happy to explain the so-called discrepancies to you.
Obviously, there are some but they're no big deal. When four different people give their views in the Gospels you have to expect all of them didn't see the exact same thing. Different perspectives and all that. That's the main way most of the Gospel discrepancies can be explained. And another thing. The Gospels were passed down for a couple generations by verbal means. They weren't put down on paper for a couple hundred years after the fact so when you consider that it's simply amazing and must be inspired by the hand of God for them to be so close.
And did you know there is good evidence of a couple lost pro-genitor gospels from which at least two and possibly three of the ones we know today were written?
HH
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Dr.H@l0nf1r£$ - 24 Oct 2007 02:52 GMT >>> shazza@NOSPAM.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid (Dr.H@l0nf1r£$) >>> Dave in Lake Villa wrote: [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > can and probably would be happy to explain the so-called > discrepancies to you. OK so why *isn't* this glaring contradiction between the 4 Gospels in use a contradiction? If someone says "The sky is cloudy today" in their account; but I say "The sun is shining and it's a clear day." in my account then it's a contradiction. In 2000 years time someone who notices the contradiction might also realise that I suffer from migraines occasionally and attribute my seeing the sun to falshing lights in my eyes - Well come on that's about as much sense as some of the Christian "apologies" make. ('Sorry; the Bible's a pack of disagreements; but here's some excuses for why it might seem that way... (What a load of... It *is* that way; which is the reason that it might *seem* that way.) - Nevertheless the fact remains; there's a contradiction.
> Obviously, there are some but they're no big deal. When four > different people give their views in the Gospels you have to expect > all of them didn't see the exact same thing. Different perspectives > and all that. That's the main way most of the Gospel discrepancies > can be explained. And another thing. The Gospels were passed down > for a couple generations by verbal means. And you'd trust that method to have even 50% accuracy after hundreds of years?!
> They weren't put down on > paper for a couple hundred years after the fact so when you > consider that it's simply amazing and must be inspired by the hand > of God for them to be so close. Or just made up; sensationalised a bit, and produced for distribution.
> And did you know there is good evidence of a couple lost > pro-genitor gospels from which at least two and possibly three of > the ones we know today were written? Has anyone actually found these "progenitor gospels"? According to DILV there's rock-solid evidence that Christianity has got it right and everyone else is wrong; but he can't produce any when asked; only superstition and hearsay.
There's over twenty in all which not many people have read. : The Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Mary - to name but five. Why are they so hidden? The Pope around 1500 - 1600 years ago decided that we couldn't read them as they don't say what the church want us to hear, that's why. - And all of Christianity has been founded upon what a Pope decided we should believe.
Harry Harris - 24 Oct 2007 20:04 GMT | >>> shazza@NOSPAM.kustomkomputa.co.uk.invalid (Dr.H@l0nf1r£$) | >>> Dave in Lake Villa wrote: [quoted text clipped - 114 lines] | what the church want us to hear, that's why. - And all of Christianity has | been founded upon what a Pope decided we should believe. This is my favorite gospel. http://www.gospels.net/translations/infancythomastranslation.html that was left out of the Bible by the council at Nicaea. (Maybe - see below). It's about Jesus' childhood and was written by Thomas. If you haven't read it you oughta read it.
Here's a sample of it just to get your curiosity up. Chapter 9
(1) And after a few days passed, Jesus was up on a roof of a house. And one of the children playing with him died after falling off the roof. And when the other children saw, they fled and Jesus was left standing alone.
(2) When the parents of the one who had died came, they accused Jesus, "Troublemaker, you threw him down."
(3) But Jesus replied, "I did not throw him down, rather he threw himself down. When he was not acting carefully, he leaped off the roof and died."
(4) Jesus leaped off the roof and stood by the corpse of the boy and cried out with a loud voice and said, "Zeno," - for that was his name - "rise up, talk to me: did I throw you down?"
(5) And rising up immediately, he said, "No, Lord, you did not throw me down, but you did raise me up."
(6) And when they saw this, they were overwhelmed. The parents of the child glorified God on account of the sign which had happened and they worshipped Jesus.
As for the Council of Nicaea and Constantine choosing what books were to be officially included in the Bible there is some doubt about it.
"From these there appears almost no evidence that the council of Nicaea made any pronouncements on which books go in the Bible, with the ambivalent exception of Jerome, or about the destruction of heretical writings, or reincarnation. However it did condemn Arius and his teachings, and the Emperor Constantine did take the usual Late Roman steps to ensure conformity afterwards. However these were not put into effect; and Arianism made an almost immediate comeback. Even Arius was recalled by Constantine."
From: http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html
HH (does the "rv" in alt.rv stand for "religious values?"
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stan.birch@hotmail.com - 24 Oct 2007 22:31 GMT >There's over twenty in all which not many people have read. : The Gospel of >Philip, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Truth, the Gospel of Judas, the >Gospel of Mary - to name but five. Why are they so hidden? Hidden??!! You've gotta be kidding!!
And as for the "not many people have read" comment, give us a break!! Of all the people who have never read these "Gospels", your name is prolly at the top of the list. When you've actually read them, then come back to us with your most wondrous evaluation. As for me, I've actually read them; and they are generally characterized as the most meritless pieces of crapp ever written!
>The Pope around 1500 - 1600 years ago decided that we couldn't read them as they don't say >what the church want us to hear, that's why. - No mediaeval popes were EVER Christians, nor ever made such prestense! Like . . . ROMAN Catholicism is a really Johnny-come-lately religion, with no affiliation whatsoever with the "Catholic [universal] Church". From the outset, as a non-christian bunch of self-serving politicians, their sole objective was to exercise absolute control over the entire planet; and ethics never precluded porking their own illeigitimate daughters and grand-daughters, if you can imagine!!
>And all of Christianity has been founded upon what a Pope decided we should believe. Okay . . . that's total horseshit born of total ignorance on your part! The Roman Catholic Church and their so-called popes never even existed until 1044 AD; and from the outset, their primary objective was to exterminate Christians!
To believe that this hideous anti-Christian organization ever had anything whatsoever to do with promoting "Christianity" would relegate to ignorant uninformed non-gratia status!
Shazza - 24 Oct 2007 22:49 GMT >> There's over twenty in all which not many people have read. : The >> Gospel of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > actually read them; and they are generally characterized as the most > meritless pieces of crapp ever written! You obviously can't see the deeper meaning in them, if you yourself have read them that is. Why do you assume that I haven't?
>> The Pope around 1500 - 1600 years ago decided that we couldn't read >> them as they don't say what the church want us to hear, that's why. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > existed until 1044 AD; and from the outset, their primary objective > was to exterminate Christians! You need to study history again; from the conquest of Rome by the Teutanes known as the Visigoths, the RC Church was formed; although only being named Roman Catholic in the 9th Century. : Previous to this however, it was still presided over by a Pope from around the Fifth century or before.
There's a lot of aggression in your rhetoric I note. You suffer from some underlying discontentment of some kind.
> To believe that this hideous anti-Christian organization ever had > anything whatsoever to do with promoting "Christianity" would relegate > to ignorant uninformed non-gratia status! Would relegate what?
Please forgive the disorganisation, if any, in my postings. : I've just totally restored my main computer, during which my HDD with the backup files on it went tits up, so I'm currently all over the place.
stan.birch@hotmail.com - 24 Oct 2007 23:43 GMT Night is now drawing nigh, and time to join my bride for the evening . . . Nothwithstanding: I am in no way ignoring your message. And I would bet that you and I have a whole lot of interesting stuff to talk to you about on a somewhat elevated basis, if you are up to it.
From a personal perespective, blowing something like $1.500 to obtain something like 38 volumes of Early Church writings was hardly a consideration.
Dr.H@l0nf1r£$ - 25 Oct 2007 01:26 GMT > Night is now drawing nigh, and time to join my bride for the evening . > . . [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > something like 38 volumes of Early Church writings was hardly a > consideration. Do have a great evening. It's nighttime here in the UK; gone midnight in actual fact. - I'm a night-owl; always have been.
'Catch you again; 'always up for a discussion.
stan.birch@hotmail.com - 24 Oct 2007 21:40 GMT >On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 (Dave in Lake Villa) wrote:
>Dave in Lake Villa wrote: >Shazzam, ? For the sake of brevity, please just simply state your >alleged Bible contradiction... succintly.., and you shall be given a >detailed answer which demonstrates there is not a contradiction. That's really a no-brainer for anyone quasi-familiar with the Judaeo-Christian Bible:
Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Shad O'Shay - 24 Oct 2007 21:56 GMT | That's really a no-brainer for anyone quasi-familiar with the | Judaeo-Christian Bible: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise | in his own conceit. And the one right before those applies to you: Proverbs 26:3 A whip for the horse, a bridle for the a.s, and a rod for the fool's back.
The two Proverbs you posted aren't a contradiction. They're only two different ways to look at something. Both are true when examined independently. Better try again.
Shad O'Shay
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