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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / May 2008Propane blows up Canadian Couple's RV
http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=62985 "So this morning, Mary Makowishuck (mick-cow-a-shuck) went to lite the stove to start breakfast as usual... "Willie and Hazel Baerg "ALL THE SUDDEN WE HAD THIS BANG, AND IT HIT OUR MOTOR HOME AND BROKE OUR DOOR, AND I LOOKED OUT AND THEIR MOTORHOME WAS IN PIECES!" "A propane tank blew-up...." Told you so. Harry Harris  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com On Nov 17, 2:06 pm, "Harry Harris" <harryhar...@thehilltopcafe.invalid> wrote: > http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=62985 > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > Posted via a free Usenet account fromhttp://www.teranews.com REPLY: Harry, For this occur, there must have been one massive propane gas leak...certainly enough to be smelled before lighting the stove. Do u have a fixation on explosive gas leaks ? In sincerity, what is behind your huge concern on this particular topic ? Thanks for sharing Harry. Dave. I see where IbeDavid <norman706@gmail.com> quoted a 3-year old report from Wild-eyed "Harry Harris" (he spends a LOT of time looking for these cases) claiming: >> "A propane tank blew-up...." Sez me: It is nearly impossible to believe that the _tank_ blew up - unless you are Harry H, in which case you can believe seven impossible things before breakfast. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >I see where IbeDavid <norman706@gmail.com> quoted a 3-year old report >from Wild-eyed "Harry Harris" (he spends a LOT of time looking for >these cases) claiming: > >>> "A propane tank blew-up...." I've actually seen a propane tank explosion. There was a seed plant burned to the ground here about 5 or 6 years ago now. I got the call from the cops at around 1:00 AM because our shop was threatened. I could see the flames from our house - the fire was about a half mile away across town. I don't know how much later the tanks blew because things kind of got exciting that night but I do know that I got dressed, went to our shop and had time to call in a bunch of staff before it happened. The building was, as they say, "fully involved" for a long time before the tanks went off. It was pretty neat though when they did go off. There were these really cool fireballs that went about 200 yards above the fire. We didn't know what they were at the time but the firefighters told us afterwards what had happened. SignatureR.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-lgTwYWyW8 This is a good one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsD8HFcOfCU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZmbp_zO6rs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPdonE8ILdE Propane tank explosions are common place. It's all documented too, right one youtube. I can't believe how some poo-poo propane safety. Harry may be a bit too cautious, but he is correct about the dangers. I respect propane and follow all the safety guidelines. >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-lgTwYWyW8 > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >bit too cautious, but he is correct about the dangers. I respect propane and >follow all the safety guidelines. You are as nuts as harry. Those tanks did NOT explode, they were exploded. Big difference. That is a phoney an argument as those who say that our longevity is less than someplace else. Or that our juvenile death rate is very high. They do not take into account the murders taking place amongst youths. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-lgTwYWyW8 > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > a bit too cautious, but he is correct about the dangers. I respect propane > and follow all the safety guidelines. I respect rattlesnakes and follow all of the safety guidelines when dealing with them but I am not going to let a morbid fear thereof keep me from camping and such in places where I might on a rare occasion meet up with one. The point being that Harry has this obsession with propane and its dangers (actually I think he has a morbid fear of most things) and should shut himself up in his house for peace of mind. He would do so except for the fear af CO, CO2, and radon.... DaveD >The point being that Harry has this obsession with propane and its >dangers (actually I think he has a morbid fear of most things) and should >shut himself up in his house for peace of mind. The other point is that if you folks would stop quoting and referring to him, the rest of us could ignore all his rants as well. Thanks. GB in NC >I've actually seen a propane tank explosion. There was a seed plant >burned to the ground here about 5 or 6 years ago now. I got the call [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >the fire. We didn't know what they were at the time but the >firefighters told us afterwards what had happened. I suspect the tank ruptured and the contained propane is what blew. Big difference. Or perhaps the tank heated until the propane expanded past the point the release could handle it and ruptured. In any event, the tank DID NOT SPONTANEOUSLY EXPLODE as the late harry claims happens all the time. I have had him kill-filled for over a year. >I suspect the tank ruptured and the contained propane is what blew. >Big difference. Or perhaps the tank heated until the propane expanded >past the point the release could handle it and ruptured. In any >event, the tank DID NOT SPONTANEOUSLY EXPLODE as the late harry claims >happens all the time. I have had him kill-filled for over a year. Ya gotta be so careful. I didn't mean to suggest that I thought propane tank explosions were a major problem or even commonplace. All I meant to do was comment that I have actually seen what happens when propane bottles go bang & it is pretty impressive. I thought I made it clear that it took a major conflagration to get them to go bang but evidently some people had trouble figuring that out from my prose. My bad. SignatureR.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com/ I see where "R.J.(Bob) Evans" <bob at rjevans dot org> contributed: >I've actually seen a propane tank explosion. <details snipped> Though I don't doubt Bob's report for a second, propane tank explosions are VERY rare -- the big ones that actually explode usually make "The World's Most Amazing Videos" or equivalent. Nasty indeed. However, the incident involving the RV in Excitable Harry's belated post probably resulted from leaking gas ignited in the RV and NOT the tank itself. In my experience, a propane tank surrounded by fire and thus overpressured will _normally_ vent via the safety - it will make things very hot where the gas spews but the tank will almost never rupture. If a tank DOES rupture it will of course make a Very Big Bang of the kind Bob reported. In the meantime, I think the world's annual count of propane tank explosions will be even lower than Harry's IQ - and that would include those deliberately blown up by wannabe Mythbusters. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill Lawyers are making a good living off of propane tank explosions: http://www.lawyersandsettlements.com/case/propane-explosions.html The government on propane tank explosions: http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/hid7.html They can and will explode. Steve >They can and will explode. Since you were responding to Will, what part of "the big ones that actually explode usually make "The World's Most Amazing Videos" or equivalent. Nasty indeed." did you not notice? People die from exploding propane tanks. They die from crashing airplanes. They die from getting hit by lightning. They die from drunken drivers. They die from war in Iraq. They die from falling down stairs. They die from falling off the roofs or RVs. The question is, what causes the hysteria about any one single cause? Look at "Odds of dying" here: http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm In 2004, 167184 people died in the US from "All External Causes of Mortality" 28 of those were from "Explosion and rupture of pressurized devices" and one can safely assume only a portion of the 28 were from propane. Your lifetime odds of dying that way are calculated as 1:134631, while your odds of dying by falling are 1:200. Your odds of dying in a "transport accident" are 1:80. Hence I would conclude that driving an RV is about 6500 times more dangerous than simply owning one with a propane tank! Why aren't we all just getting off the roads to be safe? --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty >>They can and will explode. > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" > towing '07 Jeep Liberty Statistics do not determine cause and effect nor do they determine specific outcome. They are only useful in determining outcomes of aggregate populations. If you are unsafe with propane you will have an accident. If your vehicle burns, the likelihood of an RV propane tank explosion increases. If 99 people are safe and you are an idiot your odds of an accident are not 1 in 100. They are 100% and the other 99 people are nearly 0%. Follow the safety rules and procedures, do be stupid and the chances of a propane tank explosion are less. Remember propane is a flammable gas held under pressure. Just think if your gasoline tank was under the same pressure. It's a dangerous scenario. That is why propane tanks are forbidden on bridges, tunnels, airplanes, ferries, etc. Propane tanks are weapons of mass destruction. Here's proof: http://www.fbi.gov/hq/nsb/wmd/wmd_cases.htm Twin Sisters Plot In 1999, three members of the San Joaquin County, California, militia, a right-wing militant group, plotted to destroy two propane tanks in Elk Grove, California. The tanks, each holding approximately 12 million gallons of liquid propane, were part of the largest above-ground propane facility in North America. The members-Donald K. Rudolph, Kevin Ray Patterson, and Charles Dennis Kiles-dubbed the two tanks the "Twin Sisters" and viewed the propane tank farm as "a target of opportunity." The plot originated in 1996, when many militia groups were tasked to identify targets in their area that were susceptible to sabotage and that, if destroyed, would cause a major disturbance and lead the government to declare martial law. This was part of a larger conspiracy by militia groups to undermine and destabilize the federal government. Rudolph, Patterson, and Kiles intended to follow through with the plan in late 1999. It is estimated that the explosion would have caused 12,000 deaths, widespread fire, and third-degree burns among individuals within five miles or more of the explosion. During the FBI investigation, Rudolph agreed to assist in exchange for not being charged in this matter and instead pleaded guilty to a previous charge of plotting to assassinate a U.S. District Court judge in 1998. In 2002, Patterson and Kiles were convicted of threatened use of a weapon of mass destruction. Patterson was sentenced to 21 years in federal prison and five years supervised release. Kiles was sentenced to 22 years in federal prison and five years supervised release. Rudolph was sentenced to five years in federal prison. >Just think if your gasoline tank was under the same >pressure. It's a dangerous scenario. That is why propane tanks are forbidden >on bridges, tunnels, airplanes, ferries, etc. Is that so? Why is pressure necessary to make gasoline tanks hazardous? How many tunnels have been damaged/destroyed by propane to bring about such rules? How many tunnel fires have occurred, often significant disasters, with no propane element? Don't you think they would be far better off by banning gasoline tanks from those tunnels? Laws of this sort are passed because they can be, while they would be laughed at if they tried to make tunnels safe by removing all flammables. Lawmakers like to look "safe and sane" while not really doing much that is meaningful. >Propane tanks are weapons of >mass destruction. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Twin Sisters Plot Proof? How is a "plot" proof? In reality, it is pretty hard to get one of those to explode. Did you notice the pictures from the terrorists in Scotland, where they got well beyond "planning" - they actually tried to do it? You can see the intact containers in the charred remains of the car at the airport. With the exception of Harry, I think most of us here agree that Propane is a substance to be treated with care, but not with Hysteria. Harry's idea is that it is so dangerous that it should be banned from our lives - that is the argument we are debunking by showing statistics that show the relative danger of various things we encounter in our lives. --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty >> Just think if your gasoline tank was under the same >> pressure. It's a dangerous scenario. That is why propane tanks are >> forbidden on bridges, tunnels, airplanes, ferries, etc. > > Is that so? No, it's not so and you know it!! Over the years, I have made 20 ferry trips with my RVs equipped with propane. Never have been turned down by a ferry company yet. The only bridge I every came across that was forbidden was George Washington on I-80/I-95 going into NYC. Many tunnels also allow propane, such as the Chesapeake Bay Bridge/Tunnel and all tunnels on I-77 through West Virginia just as examples. Why don't the rest of you filter this troll????? Tom J >Why don't the rest of you filter this troll????? <ahem> Speak for yourself. Most of us already have <g>.... GB in NC >> Why don't the rest of you filter this troll????? > <ahem> Speak for yourself. Most of us already have <g>.... Yeah, for all the good it does, sometimes. My issue now is with those poor, helpless souls that can't control themselves and rise to the troll's bait - EVERY TIME!! Signature<sigh> JR >> Why don't the rest of you filter this troll????? > > <ahem> Speak for yourself. Most of us already have <g>.... > > GB in NC ahem yourself!! I was responding to someone who has not!!!!! :-) Tom J >> <ahem> Speak for yourself. Most of us already have <g>.... >> >> GB in NC >ahem yourself!! I was responding to someone who has not!!!!! >:-) Well, okay then <g>. GB in NC Propane in excess of 10 lbs banned here in Maryland: http://www.mdta.state.md.us/mdta/TollFacilities/propane.jsp.091404 and here: http://www.cbbt.com/hazmat.html and here: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_Chesapeake_bay_bridge_tunnel_allow_travel_trailer s_carrying_propane yup: http://www.medbc.com/annals/review/vol_10/num_4/text/vol10n4p241.htm ah yes: http://panynj.gov/CommutingTravel/bridges/pdfs/TruckersGuide05.pdf whoops: http://pdm.medicine.wisc.edu/Masellisa.htm Propane, in the tank, is safe. The problem is when it gets out. I urge everyone, despite the nay saying of the reckless few, to adhere to propane handling guidelines, frequently check your system for leaks and don't go dragging your propane tanks through tunnels or across bridges. I really don't care if you burn yourself to a crisp, but I do care about the victims of your carelessness. Steve >Propane in excess of 10 lbs banned here in Maryland: Pure bullshit. First off, propane is not "banned" in Maryland (or anywhere else) -- it's simply prohibited in some tunnels, as it is in most tunnels that go underground or underwater (as opposed to tunnels that go through high mountains). Second, the CBBT is NOT one of the places where it's prohibited in the quantity typically carried by an RV. You have to close the valve before entering the tunnels, but that's no big deal -- and it certainly isn't a "prohibition." When we went through there a couple of years ago, the ticket-taker simply asked me if I had closed the valve (I had). She didn't attempt to verify it other than taking my word for it. Third, most of the cites you offered deal with transporting (that is, by truck) hazardous materials in large quantities. So what is this panic regarding propane on RVs anyway? Are you just looking for something to argue about? Sheesh. GB in NC >>Propane in excess of 10 lbs banned here in Maryland: > > Pure bullshit. No, you only considered the part of the sentence up to the colon. The link after the colon finished the sentence and told where the ban is. There is no bullshit on my part. Your antics, however, of taking incomplete sentences and calling them false is patently dishonest. > First off, propane is not "banned" in Maryland (or anywhere else) -- > it's simply prohibited in some tunnels, as it is in most tunnels that go > underground or underwater (as opposed to tunnels that go through high > mountains). "It's not banned - it is prohibited" (just like "you're not an idiot, just a fool!") in tunnels no less just like the link I provided said. What new information are you providing here? What is the difference between "banned" and "prohibited"? ban 1 (bn) tr.v. banned, ban·ning, bans 1. To prohibit, especially by official decree: The city council banned billboards on most streets. See Synonyms at forbid. 2. South African Under the former system of apartheid, to deprive (a person suspected of illegal activity) of the right of free movement and association with others. 3. Archaic To curse. pro·hib·it (pr-hbt) tr.v. pro·hib·it·ed, pro·hib·it·ing, pro·hib·its 1. To forbid by authority: Smoking is prohibited in most theaters. See Synonyms at forbid. 2. To prevent; preclude: Modesty prohibits me from saying what happened. ban = prohibit > Second, the CBBT is NOT one of the places where it's prohibited in the > quantity typically carried by an RV. Gasoline in containers no larger than 20 gal are allowed. Read the regs, your RV is banned even without propane. >You have to close the valve before > entering the tunnels, but that's no big deal -- and it certainly isn't a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Third, most of the cites you offered deal with transporting (that is, by > truck) hazardous materials in large quantities. Code of Maryland Regulations (COMAR) govern the transport of hazardous materials across our toll facilities. Under these regulations, vehicles carrying bottled propane gas in excess of 10 pounds per container (maximum of 10 containers), bulk gasoline, explosives, significant amounts of radioactive materials, and other hazardous materials are prohibited from using the Fort McHenry Tunnel (I-95) or the Baltimore Harbor Tunnel (I-895). The Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695, the Baltimore Beltway) is a convenient alternative route for crossing Baltimore's Harbor. > So what is this panic regarding propane on RVs anyway? Are you just > looking for something to argue about? You are an outright liar. There's no argument there.If you must resort to falsehoods, arguing using incomplete sentences, lying about obvious definitions of words, overlooking or mistating the obvious, you are of very weak or totally lacking character. But go on, please, it's your reputation and standing. > Sheesh. > > GB in NC >>>Propane in excess of 10 lbs banned here in Maryland: >> [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > >> Sheesh. Steve, keep up the good work. These people here are accidents waiting to happen. The just poo poo the dangers of propane. Worse yet they justify their carelessness by saying something stupid like it's more dangerous to drive an RV than it is to get blown up or burned by a propane fire or explosion in one. What kind of logic is that, I might ask. Because one danger has more chance to kill or injure you does it follow that any danger below that one should be ignored? These people aren't thinking straight. Seems like their minds are in a fog. Maybe they've been breathing too much carbon monoxide which is produced by a propane burner in dangerous quantities and builds up fast in an enclosed space. Run a propane fridge inside a closed up RV for four hours and I guarantee the carbon monoxide levels will be dangerous. Propane is a stupid choice. Use electricity. It's better and safer in every way. Harry Harris SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>>Propane in excess of 10 lbs banned here in Maryland: >>> [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > Harry Harris Harry, Fortunately I have a carbon monoxide monitor in my RV. There have been a few times it caught me firing up the stove without adequate ventilation. As diligent as I am about the dangers of propane, once in a while I am reminded that constant vigilance is required to avert potential disaster. I'm not saying don't use it, I'm simply saying respect it and follow the safety guidelines. Please, please keep it off bridges and out of tunnels. Just common sense. Just a thought. The "dangers" of global warming will probably never affect any of us if "global warming" is even real at all. Yet all these people run about wanting to spend money (other people's), pass laws, and enact all sorts of silliness to prevent something that might not ever happen. If it did happen the earth would be slightly warmer. All this hysteria over a degree or two. Yet the apathy over the dangers (and they are real) of propane. I just don't get it. I guess it is what makes people so damn interesting and entertaining. Steve The distinction that propane carries that causes a concern for some people is the fact that it is heavier than air. When released from it's container it seeks out the lowest point it can find. Natural gas on the other hand rises with at least a small chance of finding construction openings from which to dissipate. Both products have an ignition temperature in the 500 Degree range, In the case of an RV, a propane line leak inside could be a big problem. A leak from the tank would probably remain outside due to the molecular weight and construction of the rig. Tanks are not designed to explode however a tank exposed to high heat and fire can experience a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion). Propane in a tank is pressurized into a liquid form. As it is heated it expands and the tank design is to release pressure. If expansion due to HIGH heat is faster than the pressure relief mechanism can handle, pressure in the tank increases until the tank fails and ultimately explodes. A propane tank in an RV will not explode unless the RV is already involved in fire. As far as the production of Carbon Monoxide, it is no more dangerous than natural gas. People have had gas and propane stoves in homes for decades without the need for additional ventilation. When used properly propane is a safe and efficient and reliable source of energy. All energy sources carry their own dangers. 110 volts at the right place and time will kill as fast as an exploding propane container. The energy potential that makes propane, natural gas, oil, Electricity, etc useful is he same potential that makes it dangerous. All energy sources require respect and care for use, and all can be used safely. Accidents do happen and will never be eliminated. Jim in CT On 11/19/07 9:55 PM, in article 1dq7sr.e37.19.1@news.alt.net, "Steve" <wondersteve@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> Propane in excess of 10 lbs banned here in Maryland: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 105 lines] > > Steve >>>Propane in excess of 10 lbs banned here in Maryland: >> >> Pure bullshit. > >No, you only considered the part of the sentence up to the colon. The link >after the colon finished the sentence and told where the ban is. You're correct. Reading it the way you now say indicates that I jumped the gun. I read it as "banned here in Maryland" -- with the "here" meaning "where I live," not "as described in the following links." My bad. >> First off, propane is not "banned" in Maryland (or anywhere else) -- >> it's simply prohibited in some tunnels, as it is in most tunnels that go >> underground or underwater (as opposed to tunnels that go through high >> mountains). >What is the difference between "banned" and "prohibited"? I was referring to your "banned here in Maryland" and saying that no, it's not "banned in Maryland." It's only "prohibited in certain places." >> Second, the CBBT is NOT one of the places where it's prohibited in the >> quantity typically carried by an RV. >Gasoline in containers no larger than 20 gal are allowed. Read the regs, >your RV is banned even without propane. Wonder why they let me drive through there. Do they not enforce their own regs? Or maybe the "container" they're referring to is a "loose" can rather than a built-in tank? >> Third, most of the cites you offered deal with transporting (that is, by >> truck) hazardous materials in large quantities. >Code of Maryland Regulations (COMAR) govern the transport of hazardous >materials across our toll facilities. Under these regulations, vehicles [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >The Francis Scott Key Bridge (I-695, the Baltimore Beltway) is a convenient >alternative route for crossing Baltimore's Harbor. I know that. I've been there. What is your point? >> So what is this panic regarding propane on RVs anyway? Are you just >> looking for something to argue about? >You are an outright liar. There's no argument there.If you must resort to >falsehoods, arguing using incomplete sentences, lying about obvious >definitions of words, overlooking or mistating the obvious, you are of very >weak or totally lacking character. But go on, please, it's your reputation >and standing. I have already admitted I did not consider the links you provided as completions of an incomplete sentence. If I had, I would not have replied the way I did. For that error, I apologize. GB in NC >>They can and will explode. > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >28 of those were from "Explosion and rupture of pressurized devices" >and one can safely assume only a portion of the 28 were from propane. What proportion? One? How many died from a Liquid N2 cylinder that falls over and turns into a rocket. I saw that happen back in the 60's. >Your lifetime odds of dying that way are calculated as 1:134631, while >your odds of dying by falling are 1:200. Your odds of dying in a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >'90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" >towing '07 Jeep Liberty >I see where "R.J.(Bob) Evans" <bob at rjevans dot org> contributed: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Will Sill >The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill I suggest the late Harry contact Mythbusters and see what he can arrange. > I suggest the late Harry contact Mythbusters and see what he can > arrange. A good suggestion. He might improve his chances of acceptance if he volunteers for any experimentation thus saving them the cost of using a dummy. Signature:) JR > On Nov 17, 2:06 pm, "Harry Harris" > <harryhar...@thehilltopcafe.invalid> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > what is behind your huge concern on this particular topic ? Thanks > for sharing Harry. Dave. You don't necessarily smell propane. See my post elsewhere about the smell they put in propane being absorbed by the tank and just becoming lest potent as time passes. And, then there's the idiots who still smoke cigarettes and everybody knows cigarette smoke not only causes cancer but it destroys the sense of smell and taste. So, as you can readily see, one of the unspecified dangers of propane is it's naturally got no detectable smell. A smelly chemical has to be added and that chemical degrades and loses its smell over time. So when you get a propane leak (notice I said "when" and not "if") there is a statistically significant chance that you won't smell it. But you will (provided you aren't blown limb from limb) feel the concussion of the blast and the intense heat that will sear your flesh to the bone. Happy trails! Harry Harris ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** What a needle dick.... > Harry Harris > > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** > What a needle dick.... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Unfortunately odor fade is real: http://ngl.conocophillips.com/NR/rdonlyres/8A4DCCB3-B0F6-43FA-93DF-865F71CF2F4F/ 0/odorfade.pdf http://www.brucegoldfarb.com/propane.htm http://www.usepropane.com/consumer_safety/safety_large_html > http://forums.firehouse.com/showthread.php?t=62985 > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Harry Harris Your right Harry They are too dangerous for people like you Sell your rig now while you still can Move to the Knitting Forum and let them ahve your words of wisdom http://www.propane101.com/propanetankdistancerules.htm
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