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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / December 2007Inverter system charging ???
Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter system's batteries using a battery charger plugged into the inverter that's being run by the batteries you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and if so, how does it work? That's like discovering perpetual motion... It's not going to happen. Some of the best inverters are only about 75% efficient, plus losing efficiency though a battery charger. You'll actually be draining the batteries ... at a quick rate. > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? >That's like discovering perpetual motion... That's what I told the dude that mentioned it. But he insisted it's a common practice, so I thought about how it possibly "could" work...maybe. IF the electrons in the battery are just being moved from one side to the other, which is the impression I got of how a battery works when I read about it in detail years ago, then it seemed possible that maybe the method would just move them back around to the positive side again if there was any truth to it. Whether it would work or not my impression is still that a battery charger doesn't really add electrons to the battery, but just shifts them back around to the other side of some barrier...I forgot what it's called over the years. >It's not going to happen. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and >> if so, how does it work? > That's what I told the dude that mentioned it. But he insisted > it's a common practice, so I thought about how it possibly [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > around to the other side of some barrier...I forgot what it's > called over the years. It's called BS. Eisboch Sorry man, but it ain't happening. Conservation of energy still applies to us ordinary folks. >>That's like discovering perpetual motion... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>> you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and >>> if so, how does it work? One problem, inverters and battery chargers get warm. That's energy loss. Energy loss is inefficiency. It's fun to imagine, though. > >That's like discovering perpetual motion... > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >> you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > >> if so, how does it work? > One problem, inverters and battery chargers get warm. That's energy > loss. Energy loss is inefficiency. > It's fun to imagine, though. Somewhere in the loop you need a hamster on a treadmill. LZ >> One problem, inverters and battery chargers get warm. That's energy >> loss. Energy loss is inefficiency. >> It's fun to imagine, though. > > Somewhere in the loop you need a hamster on a treadmill. > LZ Hay don't knock it, it works, just gotta keep the little bastard feed.  SignatureBILL P. & DOG > > One problem, inverters and battery chargers get warm. That's energy > > loss. Energy loss is inefficiency. > > It's fun to imagine, though. > > Somewhere in the loop you need a hamster on a treadmill. > LZ Or magnets. Ginger > Somewhere in the loop you need a hamster on a treadmill. I'm sorry, but all the hamsters I know are out following male turtles and won't quit until they see him lay an egg. It's a union thing... I could probably talk one out of it for a small consideration...? David "The Hamster" Malone >> Somewhere in the loop you need a hamster on a treadmill. > > I'm sorry, but all the hamsters I know are out following male turtles > and won't quit until they see him lay an egg. You may as well write them off now. Male turtles are all floating in the pond with fond memories of mating season and anticipation for the next one. LZ It's a union thing... I > could probably talk one out of it for a small consideration...? > > David "The Hamster" Malone > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? It works very well. Send me a check for $500 and I'll send you the instructions. You won't be sorry you sent me the money! I promise. > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? It works very well, but how to do it is a secret. Don't listen to those who say differently, they are ignorant of new scientific breakthroughs. Send me five hundred dollars in cash and I'll send you the instructions. You won't be sorry you sent me that money, I promise! It works just as well as the perpetual motion machine in my basement. JR > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? Signature-------------------------------------------------------------- Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth > It works just as well as the perpetual motion machine in my basement. > JR [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and >> if so, how does it work? You have one of those too? >> It works just as well as the perpetual motion machine in my basement. >> JR [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > You have one of those too? Shussssh! Don't want to expose *all* our secrets .... Eisboch >>>It works just as well as the perpetual motion machine in my basement. >>>JR [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Eisboch Here's mine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ >> "Jim" <jim@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Here's mine: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ Please count to three, snap your fingers and wake me up. Eisboch > It works just as well as the perpetual motion machine in my basement. > JR [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and >> if so, how does it work? You have one too?? Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com > It works just as well as the perpetual motion machine in my basement. > JR I'll offer the perpetual inverter charger plans AND 3 carbon offset credits for only $350. I wouldn't be able to offer such a bargain but I've sold my 727 so don't need those credits anymore. LZ >> Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >> system's batteries using a battery charger plugged >> into the inverter that's being run by the batteries >> you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and >> if so, how does it work? >It works just as well as the perpetual motion machine in my basement. >JR You keep a woman's mouth in your basement????? >>It works just as well as the perpetual motion machine in my basement. >>JR > > You keep a woman's mouth in your basement????? Hail the discovered of the only true perpetual motion machine. Welcome. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid> wrote in message snip >> You keep a woman's mouth in your basement????? > > Hail the discovered of the only true perpetual motion machine. Welcome. Like Hell... They are expensive things to run. The harware alone includes Diamonds, Rubies, Prada etc. The software requires constant updating and reassurance. And If you try to upgrade to a newer model and run two at once the first one will refuse to network with the newer model. DP > "Capt. JG" <jganz@sailnow.invalid> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > DP The unit needs constant maintenance, but the mouth is perpectual. Could be good, could be bad. Signature"j" ganz @@ www.sailnow.com > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? If you have 2 half dead batteries it is possible to use them to juice up one battery completely and leave the other dead. > > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you have 2 half dead batteries it is possible to use them to juice up one > battery completely and leave the other dead. I dont' even see how you could do that. with jumper cables? no. with a power inverter and battery charger? no, (not really) your "half dead" battery won't produce enough power to keep the inverter AND battery charger up (ona 12v. system) 14v DC [+/-], at least for any real length of time to charge the other "half dead" battery. especially fully charged. >> > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >> > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > least for any real length of time to charge the other "half dead" > battery. especially fully charged. Tim: I can do it with two capacitors and a set of jumper cables. It is called a "charge pump" which is a common type of electronic circuit for transferring charge from a low potential to a high potential. The circuitry is explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_pump The power inverter and charger will also work just fine. From this link: http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html You can see a discharged battery produces nearly 12 volts (says so in the above link). The discharged battery just can supply high current at 12 volts, which is fine you just have to set the charger at trickle charge. An inverter can operate on DC voltage inputs of of 10-15 as seen here: http://www.novaelectric.com/dc_ac_inverters/600_watt_cgl_series/novacg12600w.php So it will definitely work with a fully discharged 12v lead acid battery. Steve >>> > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >>> > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Steve Heh. Eisboch >> > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >> > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >least for any real length of time to charge the other "half dead" >battery. especially fully charged. Hmmm...these days, there are boost regulators (step up) and buck regulators (step down) and even buck/boost regulators, that can produce a set voltage from a source that goes from higher to lower than the target voltage. And this leads to high efficiencies too. I imagine an inverter system could have similar qualities. Brian Whatcott Altus OK >>>> Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >>>> system's batteries using a battery charger plugged [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Brian Whatcott Altus OK Brian, I was stationed at Altus AFB back in the 50s and 60s. Helped Hoyt Shaded mayor build a mobile home park out close to the base. Spent about eight years there. SignatureBILL P. & DOG >Brian, I was stationed at Altus AFB back in the 50s and 60s. Helped Hoyt >Shaded mayor build a mobile home park out close to the base. Spent about >eight years there. There is a little park on one side of the city lake (formerly a city water reservoir) named for Hoyt. Unusual name. Kids can pull 12 inch fish out of that lake, if they can get past the geese and ducks - though the recent bird flu issue has led the city to start scaring off the birds there. There are surprizingly few military folks on base - mostly aircrew students, served by a largely civilian staff. Brian Whatcott Altus OK >> Brian, I was stationed at Altus AFB back in the 50s and 60s. Helped Hoyt >> Shaded mayor build a mobile home park out close to the base. Spent about [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Brian Whatcott Altus OK During my short stay at Altus, they built the Atlas silos and closed them down. I was Pad Chief for the Cache site. At that time I lived in Hobart, drove all the way to the base changed my car for an AF vehicle and drove all the way to the site. It was still dark when I left home in the morning at Hobart and dark again in the evening when I returned home. Seven days a week many times, little time off. Certainly was glad when they let us convoy that missile to San Bernardino. We used to go up to Lake Altus and water ski and fish, while they were building the sites and after they shut them down. SignatureBILL P. & DOG >During my short stay at Altus, they built the Atlas silos and closed >them down. I was Pad Chief for the Cache site. At that time I lived in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >We used to go up to Lake Altus and water ski and fish, while they were >building the sites and after they shut them down. The base commander or maybe missile squadron commander from that era Dick Maffrey, retired here, and died 2 or 3 years ago. Entrepreneurial. He set up a motel, a feeder air line, a bus transport outfit, he built his house down the road from mine with his own hands along with his wife and kids, and very nice it is. His wife is still live and kicking. I took a look at the silo north of the lake. It was half filled with water - the silo lid was welded shut etc. Kinda spooky. I think the Cache site that you mentioned, is on the road to Frederick, south of the Altus-Lawton main drag. Is that the one? The mueum here has a control console for one of the silos. Brian W >> During my short stay at Altus, they built the Atlas silos and closed >> them down. I was Pad Chief for the Cache site. At that time I lived in [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Brian W Colonel T. Robert Hall Jr. was the Commander of the 577th SMS when I was there, and I was there for the full existence of the unit. Maffrey might have been Base CO I do not remember, I remember Col Kise was wing co for a while. Cache site was close to the Lawton, we had another site at Frederick. http://www.577sms.com/ But we did have some folks that made good. http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7184 http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=4615 There were several more. SignatureBILL P. & DOG > Hmmm...these days, there are boost regulators (step up) and buck > regulators (step down) and even buck/boost regulators, that can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Brian Whatcott Altus OK I've never heard of a buck, boost, or buck/boost regulator. There are bucking, boosting and buck/boost transformers, but if the voltage is boosted, it is at the expense of a corresponding same percentage loss of available current, plus transformer loss. Eisboch > I've never heard of a buck, boost, or buck/boost regulator. Now you have: http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LM2698.html There are > bucking, boosting and buck/boost transformers, No transformer in the above link. >but if the voltage is > boosted, it is at the expense of a corresponding same percentage loss of > available current, plus transformer loss. Only applies to transformers. Power (voltage and current over a given time period) is conserved. > Eisboch >> I've never heard of a buck, boost, or buck/boost regulator. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >> Eisboch Interesting. If the power source is a 12 volt DC battery, what does this regulator boost and how does it do it? Eisboch >>> I've never heard of a buck, boost, or buck/boost regulator. >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Eisboch My apologies. I didn't notice the link you provided. It appears to be an inverter circuit and indeed can provide a DC boost. However, it's not a perpetual power system and will still use more power from a battery that it is trying to charge. Eisboch >>>> I've never heard of a buck, boost, or buck/boost regulator. >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Eisboch DC-DC converter. I see there are references to Buck Regulators on the I-net. But Buck just means reducing voltage. >> Hmmm...these days, there are boost regulators (step up) and buck >> regulators (step down) and even buck/boost regulators, that can [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Eisboch Yep, there are many many topics that *I've* never heard of either! As usual, Google is your friend - with keywords: buck/boost regulator. Here's an old article that gives the flavor.... http://www.edn.com/article/CA318719.html And, it goes without saying, you don't get more power out than the power you put in, but you don't throw away power as heat so much as older methods, so the volt times amp product of the output can be 85% or 90% of the volt amps input over a fair voltage input range. Brian Whatcott Altus OK Brian Whatcott Altus OK > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? Of course it is true, go to here for more info: > http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/phys101.htm > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? Very well. Consumer's energy will by your excess power. How do you think all of us RVers got retired so young? Lon >> Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >> system's batteries using a battery charger plugged [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Lon Couldn't you just sell the energy back to the power company? > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? Try it and see. AND make sure you have a spare battery fully charged. > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? This only works for a short time and then the electricity gets dizzy from running in circles and lays down. :) SERIOUSLY: You have to have the charger plugged into shore AC power. If you have an inverter/charger, the inverter will have to be plugged into shore AC power. LZ >Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >system's batteries using a battery charger plugged >into the inverter that's being run by the batteries >you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and >if so, how does it work? It doesn't. Perpetual motion. In short - bull feathers as my maternal Grandfather used to say in polite company. > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? In the old days they did it all the time, course you had to have a steady breeze turning the windmill. SignatureBILL P. & DOG > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? it will discharge faster than it is charging >> Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >> system's batteries using a battery charger plugged [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > it will discharge faster than it is charging Now there's an honest answer! Eisboch > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? It recharges the batteries much faster than the inverter uses the power up. If you leave it running, you can even run an electric trolling motor from the surplus power and eliminate the diesel or gas engine that gives so much trouble. This works even better if you have a small thermonuclear charger like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator Pay no attention to what it says about radiation. Russians have been running their navaids off them for years! Larry SignatureXterm IS the ultimate video game...(c; > Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter > system's batteries using a battery charger plugged > into the inverter that's being run by the batteries > you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and > if so, how does it work? Yes you will find the plans for that in your local public library in the perpetual motion machine section. I see where a troll calling itself <dh@.> wrote: >> Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >> system's batteries using a battery charger plugged >> into the inverter that's being run by the batteries >> you want to charge. Is there any truth to that, and >> if so, how does it work? I must say this has proved to be one of the most successful trolls in recent years, generating scads of responses. Unlike the idea itself (which if course is utterly daft) the troll bids fair to become a perpetual sort of thing. Will Sill The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill >I must say this has proved to be one of the most successful trolls in >recent years, generating scads of responses. Unlike the idea itself [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Will Sill >The Curmudgeon of Sill Hill To the point that the patent office will no longer accept applications for said devices. Hmmm... sounds a lot like Ethanol from corn..... except on a good day, you may actually get 10% net energy output from the ethanol... probably -25 from the battery system >>Someone told me it's possible to charge an inverter >>system's batteries using a battery charger plugged [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Yes you will find the plans for that in your local public library in the > perpetual motion machine section. >Hmmm... sounds a lot like Ethanol from corn..... except on a good day, >you may actually get 10% net energy output from the ethanol... probably >-25 from the battery system GOOD CATCH. I'm gonna use that one myself. SignatureR.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com/ |
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