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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / December 2007Etiquette for commercial post
Hello, all. What is the etiquette in this group for a "for-profit" post? I would like to advertise a solar energy product designed specifically for RVers, 5th wheelers, and travel trailer(ers), but not if it offends the group or violates group etiquette. TIA, Dave R PS I see that the group apparently does not allow pics to be posted. >Hello, all. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >PS I see that the group apparently does not allow pics to be posted. Spamming is not allowed. On this group or in Usenet in general. it's a good way to loose your ISP account and your web site.  SignatureFrank Tabor > Spamming is not allowed. On this group or in Usenet in general. it's > a good way to loose your ISP account and your web site. According to Wikipedia, "Usenet convention defines spamming as excessive multiple posting, that is, the repeated posting of a message (or substantially similar messages)." TB made constructive comments of the sort I was hoping for. I don't know if you are trying to educate me or warn me or what... Believe me, if I were a spammer, I wouldn't call up and ask permission! Thanks anyway. Dave R > Believe me, > if I were a spammer, I wouldn't call up and ask permission! No truer words have been spoken. One poster did give you the perfect opportunity to reply though regarding the product. Personally, I'd like to see the details and specifications of whatever it is and have an open discussion of the pros and/or cons of whatever it is.... SignatureSteve > > Believe me, > > if I were a spammer, I wouldn't call up and ask permission! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of whatever it is and have an open discussion of the pros > and/or cons of whatever it is.... Thanks. The system I am promoting is called Sun Seeker and is manufactured in Salt Lake City, Utah, under U.S. and international patents by an outfit called Outdoor Solutions. One Sun Seeker should meet all the electricity needs of an RV and virtually eliminate the need for a built-in fullsize generator. The Sun Seeker automatically tracks the sun for solar energy for your RV, 5th wheel, or travel trailer. There is no need to manually adjust the solar panels during the day: once aimed at the sun, the solar panels automatically track the sun for optimum exposure all day long, not just at peak hours. The system will generate up to 20 amps/hr every hour exposed to full sun, proportionately less on an overcast day. The spec Interstate 6-volt deep cycle batteries are rated at 232 amp/hrs. The system operates 24 hrs, rotating continuously so it's in position to start catching rays at daybreak. No external power supply is required to raise, lower, or rotate the panels. It's a rooftop mount on a powder-coated base plate and requires 34" on- center clearance for the panels to rotate 360 degrees. Lays flat for travel at about the height of a roof air unit. A complete system includes 2 125 watt solar panels, stainless steel frame, mounting plate, permanently sealed riser motor, permanently sealed rotator motor, inverter, charge controller, remote w/2 key fob transmitters (no more climbing onto the roof to realign panels), 40' of wire, and 4 6-volt batteries. Installation is not included (I can make a recommendation or two in the SF Bay Area). Individual components can be had, if, for example, you wanted to provide your own collector panels. Our web site is www.outdoor-solutions.info. You will find more technical data there, including including sun charts and worksheets to help you calculate your electrical power needs or generating potential. I expect to be in Quartzite, AZ, from early December through January and will have a working Sun Seeker on hand for a demonstration. Meanwhile, you can reach me at (510) 230-3539 or via email at daverowsey@hotmail.com. I'm a user and advocate, not a technician, so if you require a lot of detail, I may have to call the shop before I can answer your question. Thank you again. Dave R <snip> >> Personally, I'd like to see the details and specifications >> of whatever it is and have an open discussion of the pros [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Salt Lake City, Utah, under U.S. and international patents by an outfit > called Outdoor Solutions. Interesting idea but, OUCH. I checked out the site and that's a very expensive system for the "average Joe". Granted, it'd be nice for folks like me who have no access to electric but I can run my 6500W generator for 14 hours on 4 gallons of gas. It'd take me a loooooooong time to burn that much gas. It'll be interesting to hear others prospective on it. In any event, good luck. SignatureSteve > <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > It'll be interesting to hear others prospective on it. It's a cute toy. A small RV generator will produce 3,000 watts. At peak his system will produce a theoretical 250 to 330 watts during the day in good weather. You could run a small TV and other small electronic items, a laptop computer and limited lighting. If you used anything that used much electricity like: an RV furnace, power tools, most appliances, hair dryers, curling irons, etc, etc, etc, you wouldn't have much light or TV that night. On overcast days very few people could live within what this system produces. A/C would be out of the question regardless of the weather. This system makes sense for almost no one. If you're looking to save money over the cost of powering a generator, for just about everyone this will not happen. For a family this system wouldn't produce enough power. A couple who was very frugal in their energy use *might* be able to live within what this system produces. For it to make sense for that theoretical couple they would pretty much have to be full timers who spent long periods off the power grid sitting still. Once you start moving around it would make more sense to recharge the batteries off the engine's alternator. Most of the time if you're in a sunny area you'll want to use the A/C. If it isn't sunny you aren't going to get much power from the solar panels. Even if this theoretical couple could live without A/C they aren't likely to recover the cost of the system. If you factor in the enviromental impact of producing this system and the energy used packing it around it *might* have some minimal enviromental benefit over a generator system if it's used _instead_ of a generator or engine system often enough. However, attaching an enviromental feel good toy to an RV is just plain silly. For anyone considering this system here's a short primer on photovoltaics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic There's a lot more to it because for this application you also have to consider the batteries. I would suggest that anyone who is looking for practical benefits do their research before buying this toy. There's a lot of information out there to help you do the math for your situation. For most RVers it won't add up. TB >>> The system I am promoting is called Sun Seeker and is manufactured in >>> Salt Lake City, Utah, under U.S. and international patents by an outfit >>> called Outdoor Solutions. > It's a cute toy. A small RV generator will produce 3,000 watts. At peak >his system will produce a theoretical 250 to 330 watts during the day in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >happen. ><snipped> I realize some RVers actually *prefer* to park in the sun, year round. But many of us want shade when it's available (at least in warmer months), and that renders almost any solar system unusable for us, regardless of how wonderful it may be. On a warm/hot day, parking in the shade and enjoying its natural cooling effect with the windows open trumps parking in the sun to take advantage of solar charging and then having to run the a/c to stay comfortable. And when I'm driving, my alternator charges my house battery just fine. GB in NC > Interesting idea but, OUCH. I checked out the site and > that's a very expensive system for the "average Joe". [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It'd take me a loooooooong time to burn that much gas. I'm sure someone somewhere has the data the actual costs of running a generator over a certain period of time. Besides gas ($3.40-ish in my neighborhood these days), don't you have maintenance? And, depending how old your generator is, wouldn't your neighbors like to not hear it running all day? Dave R ''I'm sure someone somewhere has the data the actual costs of running a generator over a certain period of time. ' REPLY: Its rather simple to determine the cost of running a Generator ; my Onan 4.0 k.w. Owners Manual indicates that it uses approx. 1/2 gallon of gasoline per hour at half load. So...figure a gallon of gasoline currently costing :$3.20 The SunSeeker Solar System costs $2500 according to the WebSite. So...let me get my calculator out here....just a sec....... Okay -- $2500 will buy approx. 800 gallons of gasoline at $3.20 per gallon . If we take 800 gallons x 2 hrs runtime/gall. , that equals a total of : 1600 available hours of Generator runtime (assuming a constant half load). Actually, more hours of runtime will be had because the load will be cycling on an off periodically... such as with an electric heater,a/c unit, or fridge. It comes down to : How many RV trips would you need to go on to where you used up some 1600 hours of generator runtime ? For myself...that is a tremendous amount of generator runtime based on how often i use the Generator. Further, nearly all the time, youre using ShorePower at a CG or State Park . Its obvious that the Solar Setup would be most advantegeous for the DryCamper , but would take a very long time to get your money back on if based on typical RVing habits. 'don't you have maintenance? ' REPLY: Until a Generator has ALOT of runtime on it, all you need to do is change the oil (1.5 qts) every year and maybe the air filter every 2 or 3 years. Hardly any expense there. Dont you have maintenance with the Solar Setup ? 'wouldn't your neighbors like to not hear it running all day?' REPLY: Most CG's have a limit on using your RV's Generator, plus, at a CG you typically use their shorepower in place of your Generator. With the Solar Setup, you have to consider possible damage from high winds, branches, and/or vandalism ; an RV's Generator is tucked away in a closed compartment which can be locked usually. Just some thoughts... > REPLY: Its rather simple to determine the cost of running a Generator ; > my Onan 4.0 k.w. Owners Manual indicates that it uses approx. 1/2 > gallon of gasoline per hour at half load. So...figure a gallon of > gasoline currently costing :$3.20 > > The SunSeeker Solar System costs $2500 according to the WebSite. Sun Seeker is $4500 + installation, figure maybe another $400 or $500. It recharges your batteries automatically, offsetting that much of your load as you use electricity and at 100% replacement when there is no load. I wish it were not so expensive. The bulk of the cost is in the solar panels. That fact was one factor keeping me from putting a solar system on my home. Once economies of scale, manufacturing technology, etc, begin to benefit solar panel production, hopefully prices will come down from the stratosphere. You can also get Sun Seeker components individually if you want to shop around for better prices on the panels (maybe you already have some?), inverter, or batteries. Finally, my generator runs off my RV gas tank and has a cutoff feature so my generator won't run my RV dry. So that means I always have to pay attention to how much fuel I have: what with an older RV (1988) with a not-so-accurate fuel gauge and no trip odometer, I'm always conscious of my fuel situation (probably not a bad idea anyway). >Dont you have maintenance with the Solar Setup ? The riser motor and rotator are sealed. The frame is stainless steel, the base is powder coated. I personally do not know the life expectancy of deep cycle batteries, inverter, or charge controller (which by the say has a de-sulfite function). > 'wouldn't your neighbors like to not hear it running all day?' > > REPLY: Most CG's have a limit on using your RV's Generator, plus, at a > CG you typically use their shorepower in place of your Generator. Isn't there a fee for campground power? OK, so it's what, only $30/day? > With the Solar Setup, you have to consider possible damage from high > winds, branches, and/or vandalism ; an RV's Generator is tucked away in > a closed compartment which can be locked usually. Agreed on the potential for damage, although I honestly don't know who would throw a rock at you. In that case, would your RV insurance cover you? The locks on my RV are not the greatest. I know from experience that there is almost nothing you can do to deter someone who is determined to steal your stuff. Anecdotally, one of our customers supposedly drove into a structure with the Sun Seeker in the raised position, causing something like $10K damage to his roof. After initially blaming Outdoor Solutions for the incident, he admitted his contribution, then bought another Sun Seeker to replace the damaged one. The Sun Seeker lies horizontally for travel and rides at about the height of a roof A/C unit. It has been wind tunnel tested and withstands winds up to 65 MPH in the raised position. Beyond that, it has a built-in clutch so as to not burn up the (rotator) motor in, say, a micro burst. > Just some thoughts... Thanks! Dave R www.outdoor-solutions.info daverowsey@hotmail.com 'The SunSeeker Solar System costs $2500 according to the WebSite. Sun Seeker is $4500 + installation, figure maybe another $400 or $500. ' REPLY: Opps.. i thought it said $2500 on one of the webpages. In any case, if its a $5,000 cost, then that would buy enough gasoline to run a 4.0 kw RV Generator over 3200 hours to charge up the batterys as well as run 115 v. equipment ... and thats ONLY for the times that shorepower isnt available . For me, 3200 hours of Generator Runtime equals MANY MANY years since I normally stay where there is shorepower at a CG. Now, if gasoline ever got to $6.00 per gallon, then, the Sunsetter Solar arrangement would be starting to get benefical. 'Most CG's have a limit on using your RV's Generator, plus, at a CG you typically use their shorepower in place of your Generator. ' Isn't there a fee for campground power? OK, so it's what, only $30/day? REPLY: CG's range from typically $12 to $30 per day with shorepower included. If you elect to have 'No Hookup' ..then typically its only about $5 cheaper per day. Dave, I think your setup is a nice one and would really be great for the DryCamper who does alot of that type of RVing ; but the manner in which I RV and the frequency...it just wouldnt be a smart investment at all for myself. I do wish you success with it . Dave > Dave, I think your setup is a nice one and would really be great for > the DryCamper who does alot of that type of RVing ; but the manner in > which I RV and the frequency...it just wouldnt be a smart investment at > all for myself. I do wish you success with it . > > Dave Hopefully someday solar will be more within reach. Meanwhile, thanks for the nice thoughts and constructive criticism. Dave R www.outdoor-solutions.info DaveRowsey@hotmail.com 'Hopefully someday solar will be more within reach. Meanwhile, thanks for the nice thoughts and constructive criticism. Dave R' REPLY: I think it will one day, as will Solar Panels for homes no matter the geographical location. > 'Hopefully someday solar will be more within reach. Meanwhile, thanks > for the nice thoughts and constructive criticism. > Dave R' > > REPLY: I think it will one day, as will Solar Panels for homes no matter > the geographical location. I saw something recently on the Discovery channel or one of those, about a new thin film for solar panels that theoretically should bring the price down. Notice I did say, theoretically. SignatureSteve > I saw something recently on the Discovery channel or one of > those, about a new thin film for solar panels that > theoretically should bring the price down. > > Notice I did say, theoretically. It's called "nano-solar," solar collector cells printed on a thin film of something like mylar, rolled out on a device that reminds me of newsprint. coming out on big continuous sheets Lots of IPO and research dollars invested invested in start-ups in Silicon Valley (Sunnyvale, Santa Clara) Calif. Check out nanosolar.com for one. Don't know exactly what the applications are yet... Dave R www.outdoor-solutions.info Thanks for all your comments. I will take them into consideration while discussing solar energy. Dave R >>> Believe me, >>> if I were a spammer, I wouldn't call up and ask permission! [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Dave R Nice plan Dave, but I live in the north. We don't get enough sun in a year to keep a flashlight charged. If I put anything on my roof taller than the 7.5 heat pump, the coach won't fit in its shed anymore. Good Luck Matt > Hello, all. > > What is the etiquette in this group for a "for-profit" post? I would > like to advertise a solar energy product designed specifically for > RVers, 5th wheelers, and travel trailer(ers), but not if it offends the > group or violates group etiquette. Here's a link to pretty much the gospel on advertising on usenet. It's an oldie, but a goodie: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/advertising/how-to/part1/ That said, while free adversting on usenet seems very attractive, what most folks with legitimate products and services find is that you won't make decent wages advertising this way. In addition if you aren't careful how you do it you will be thought a spammer. No reasonably intelligent, reasonably sane person buys anything from spammers. If you have an interest in the topic of this group I would suggest that you pull up a chair, participate in the discussion, and use carefully placed "signature ads" where appropriate. If done right you will be a welcome addition to this group and/or rec.outdoors.rv-travel. For example, a long time poster to RORT was a person who operates his own RV repair shop. Because he's very knowledgeable on the subject his on topic posts were very popular. Other than an occasional escapee from a mental institution no one objected to his signature advertising. OTOH his report was that it didn't draw enough additional business to his shop to pay for his time. He did it because he was interested in discussing the subject. > TIA, > > Dave R > > PS I see that the group apparently does not allow pics to be posted. Pictures are not generally welcome on non-binary groups. Most usenet servers won't propagate binary files on non-binary groups. It's better to post a link to your pictures. Here's an example of a *possible* legitimate discussion of your product: My personal opinion is that for the vast majority of RVers "solar energy products" are a scam. They're mostly feel good products that people buy in the mistaken belief that they're environmentally friendly. With solar panels, for example, except for a few RVers who spend a lot of time off the power grid, most people will not get enough benefits to recover the time, money and hassle they put into the thing. What you mostly see out there is people with panels that are too small to produce significant amounts of electricity or too expensive to make sense for most people. You are now free to explain why you think I'm wrong. You can use your product as an example and include a "signature ad". Except for a few people with truely useful and superior products most folks who come to usenet to sell stuff find that they do not enjoy the rough and tumble of usenet. The folks who have useful and superior products don't need usenet. The few that you find are here because they enjoy discussing the group's subject. TB OK, thanks. 'What is the etiquette in this group for a "for-profit" post? I would like to advertise a solar energy product designed specifically for RVers, 5th wheelers, and travel trailer(ers), but not if it offends the group or violates group etiquette. TIA, Dave R' REPLY: Since all Businesses are entitled to make a profit , you are free to advertise your wares . And, since your product is relevant to RVers and this is an RV NG ... you should not concern yourself with it offending anyone . In fact, Im looking forward to seeing what you offer. |
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