Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / December 2007
Satellite Internet Question
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Horace Clark - 03 Dec 2007 16:08 GMT According to the Datastorm website http://www.indyne.com/faq_mobile.html I have to keep my dish at least 6 feet above the ground to be FCC legal. I have a mount that sits right on the ground for my dish. If I put a plastic fence around for 6 feet will it be legal? They say on the webpage {QUESTION: Is the dish transmission a danger? ANSWER: The system is a "transmitting" device, therefore, falls under FCC regulations. The FCC states "This device emits radio frequency energy when in the transmit mode. To avoid injury, do not place head or other body parts between feed horn and satellite antenna dish when system is operational. Unplug indoor power connection before performing maintenance or adding upgrades to any antenna components." Transmission strength is about 1 Watt, (a cell phone is .8 watts). Being on top of the vehicle or 6' above ground level (per regulation) will comply with the FCC warning.} I camp in parks with other campers. Twice now I've lost my signal because of kids playing with the dish. Did the dish hurt those kids? Thanks all, seasons tidngs!
Horace
R.J.(Bob) Evans - 04 Dec 2007 15:17 GMT >Did the dish hurt those kids? Thanks all, seasons tidngs! Short answer - life is dangerous & is known to cause death 100% of the time. In the big scheme of things, the risk to those kids from your dish is minimal. IMHO
Ask the question here: http://www.datastormusers.com/
 Signature R.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com/
NotMe - 05 Dec 2007 09:57 GMT | >Did the dish hurt those kids? Thanks all, seasons tidngs! | > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Ask the question here: | http://www.datastormusers.com/ But the risk of litigation from the parents or others is much higher. Rest assured the fact that the mounting was not in compliance with FCC regs will be a factor.
If it means anything the highest potential for injury is in the near field would be less than one foot from the face of the antenna in this instance.
R.J.(Bob) Evans - 06 Dec 2007 18:39 GMT >| Short answer - life is dangerous & is known to cause death 100% of the >| time. In the big scheme of things, the risk to those kids from your [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >assured the fact that the mounting was not in compliance with FCC regs will >be a factor. If you are going to successfully sue you have to prove damages. Good luck proving that your kid was made into a moron by my satellite dish.
 Signature R.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com/
Don Bradner - 06 Dec 2007 20:21 GMT >According to the Datastorm website >http://www.indyne.com/faq_mobile.html >I have to keep my dish at least 6 feet above the ground to be FCC >legal. Since I run the primary "Datastorm website" (DatastormUsers.com) I object to having the website of someone who happens to sell Datastorms called "the" Datastorm website.
The issue of what is legal, and what is illegal, regarding satellite internet dishes has been beaten to death in countless discussions over the past 6 years. Websites of Datastorm sellers have often included statements such as the one above, usually cut-and-pasted from some other site, and somewhat murky in terms of who originated one.
The simple fact is that many, many people with a vested interest in showing that the statement is correct have tried in vain to find any such FCC regulation.
No matter what you do, if you move a tripod often enough you will run into someone that will tell you that you are illegal, or are harming them, or whatever, and you are unlikely to convince them otherwise. Forget it and move on.
We do advise, out of courtesy and to help the community of other users, that you not do obvious things that people are going to object to. Don't setup your dish so that it appears to be pointed at your neighbor's bedroom (it is actually shooting 20 degrees higher than it appears). Don't set it at ground level where lots of kids are running around. Don't string cables where people are likely to trip over them (probably the only real significant risk).
All common sense stuff. --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty
Steve - 07 Dec 2007 00:09 GMT http://www.fcc.gov/oet/rfsafety/rf-faqs.html
R.J.(Bob) Evans - 07 Dec 2007 02:22 GMT >http://www.fcc.gov/oet/rfsafety/rf-faqs.html OK - I'll bite ... just exactly where on that page does it say that my dish is going to turn your kid into a moron? Or that I have to take any precautions to keep the little bugger(s) away from my tripod.
 Signature R.J.(Bob) Evans (return address needs alteration to work) http://travellingwithgeorge.blogspot.com/
Steve - 07 Dec 2007 14:56 GMT >>http://www.fcc.gov/oet/rfsafety/rf-faqs.html >> > OK - I'll bite ... just exactly where on that page does it say that my > dish is going to turn your kid into a moron? Or that I have to take > any precautions to keep the little bugger(s) away from my tripod. It doesn't at all.
Don Bradner - 07 Dec 2007 06:43 GMT >http://www.fcc.gov/oet/rfsafety/rf-faqs.html Can we assume you posted that in order to muddle the issue? Nice try, but no cigar.
Now, go find us the elusive regulations that stipulate height and access requirements for a consumer 1-watt dish. If you find them, you will be the first.
While you looking, dig down in the oet and you can find the safe exposure level for emissions above 2GHz. Hint: 5mW/cm2. Then calculate the exposure of a 1-watt beam from a dish 4300 sq cm (the size of a normal Hughes dish). Hint: 0.2mW/cm2. After you've compared the two and realized that safe exposure limits are not exceeded in the beam, proceed to the next step, which is:
Complain that the signal is much stronger in front of the feedhorn. Logical, but Bzzzzt - anything in front of the feedhorn instantly shuts the transmitter down on a Hughes system.
Now see what new fear-mongering you can devise about these terrible, terrible microwaves!
There is greater exposure from a typical cell phone held to the ear, because of distance factors, and there've been a LOT of studies that fail to show any problem there, even though those afraid of microwaves are sure it must be frying brains. --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty
Steve - 07 Dec 2007 16:01 GMT >>http://www.fcc.gov/oet/rfsafety/rf-faqs.html > > Can we assume you posted that in order to muddle the issue? Nice try, > but no cigar. No, I posted exactly what the FCC says on the issue. The point of the FCC document is to address concerns.
> Now, go find us the elusive regulations that stipulate height and > access requirements for a consumer 1-watt dish. If you find them, you > will be the first. What part of 47 CFR does the dish come under?
> While you looking, dig down in the oet and you can find the safe > exposure level for emissions above 2GHz. Hint: 5mW/cm2. Then calculate > the exposure of a 1-watt beam from a dish 4300 sq cm (the size of a > normal Hughes dish). Hint: 0.2mW/cm2. After you've compared the two > and realized that safe exposure limits are not exceeded in the beam, > proceed to the next step, which is: Wait a minute here. 1 watt is the propagating field (far field) and does not include the energy stored in the near field. OSHA addresses the issue of energy in the near field here:
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/radiofrequencyradiation/electromagnetic_fieldmemo/elect romagnetic.html#Section%206
Pay particular attention to:
"NEAR-FIELD: The region located less than one wavelength from the source is called the "Near-field". Here, the relationship between E and H becomes very complex, and it requires measurement of both E and H to determine the power density. Also, unlike the far-field where EM waves are usually characterized by a single polarization type (horizontal, vertical, circular, or elliptical), all four polarization types can be present in the near-field.
Since both the E field and the H field components of electromagnetic waves are absorbed by living tissue, and since the relationship between E and H is complicated in the near-field, we must measure both E and H when evaluating near-field hazards. This includes all low frequency sources, such as RF heat sealers.
The near-field is further divided into the "reactive" near-field and the "radiative" near-field. The outer boundary of the reactive near-field region is commonly considered to be a distance of 1/2p times the wavelength (l/2p or 0.159 x l) from the antenna surface. The radiative near-field covers the remainder of the near-field region, from l/2p out to l (one full wavelength).
In the reactive near-field (very close to the antenna), the relationship between the strengths of the E and H fields is too complex to predict. Either field component (E or H) may dominate at one point, and the other way dominate at a point only a short distance away. This makes it extremely difficult to find the true power density there. Not only would E and H both have to be measured, but a new term called the phase relationship between E and H is needed. Present survey meters (such as OSHA's Narda and Holaday units) measure only the magnitude E or H, not this phase relationship. Although it would be very helpful to know the true power density, our present compliance efforts do not require us to determine it. During a compliance survey, both the E field and the H field components are measured separately, read from the meter as E2 and H2 quantities, and each quantity is compared individually against the Radio Frequency Protection Guides (RFPG) of the ANSI C95.1-1982 standard. If either the E field or the H field component exceeds the limits of the RFPG, the level is considered high.
As you might have guessed, the reactive near-field region has another surprise in store for you. In this reactive region, not only is the EM wave being radiated outward into space, but there is a "reactive" component to the EM field. Very close to the antenna, energy of an unknown amount is held back and is stored very near the antenna surface. This reactive component can be the source of confusion and danger in attempting measurements in this region. In other regions the power density is inversely proportional to the square of the distance from the antenna. In the vicinity very close to the antenna, the energy level can rise dramatically with only a small additional movement towards the antenna. This energy can be very dangerous (even hazardous) to both humans and measurement equipment where high powers are involved.
CAUTION: When the radiating dimensions of the antenna are much smaller than one wavelength and/or the frequency is low (as with heat sealers), it is especially important to be aware of the POTENTIALLY HAZARDOUS REACTIVE FIELDS WHICH MAY EXIST IN THE REACTIVE NEAR-FIELD. Exercise extreme caution for both your safety and the equipment when making near-field measurements, in the case of heat sealing machines. As you move nearer to the antenna in the reactive near-field, the energy can increase much quicker than what is computed by the inverse-square law. Some electromagnetic energy is stored in the near-field in the vicinity of the antenna that can be an unsuspected source of dangerous energy. This "reactive field" energy is especially dangerous with high power systems. The closer to the radiating source you get, the more caution should be exercised. "
The relation between the E and H field are predictable and are regular calculated in industry using various EM modelling programs such as ANSOFT, NEC, Zealand, etc. Ham Radio operators use NEC regularly for their backyard creations.
> > Complain that the signal is much stronger in front of the feedhorn. > Logical, but Bzzzzt - anything in front of the feedhorn instantly > shuts the transmitter down on a Hughes system.
On a correctly operating Hughes system. What about all the others?
> > Now see what new fear-mongering you can devise about these terrible, > terrible microwaves!
Perhaps the greatest fear is installed by those who claim that something is 100% safe, foolproof, etc. History shows a poor track record in that area.
> > There is greater exposure from a typical cell phone held to the ear, > because of distance factors, and there've been a LOT of studies that > fail to show any problem there, even though those afraid of microwaves > are sure it must be frying brains.
Just in today's news:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=071207145613.hnkq6bin&show_article=1
From 1974:
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA 007521
From 1967:
http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=4522127
More documented effects on brain function:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel5/7218/19483/00900856.pdf
Upon testicles:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel6/8203/24832/01123206.pdf
Remember, human testicles are much larger than mice testicles so their radar cross section is larger for the same wavelength and resonance effects can occur.
When you say far greater exposure, what are you comparing it to?
More importantly, if microwaves/RF are not dangerous then why were extensive studies undertaken in 30-40 years ago which resulted in exposure limit guidelines/ regulations? There are no exposure limit guidelines for hot cooking surfaces on stoves and yet the burn danger is much higher.
Not everyone who smokes gets lung cancer so smoking does not lead to lung cancer? There is a great variation in human biological mechanism, each with its own propensity to certain diseases and conditions. What is benign to one person may be lethal to another (example: peanuts).
The sun has an intensity of about 900 Wm^2, which is 90 mW/cm^2 or about 450 times stronger than the radiation field of the dish. A one hour exposure to the sun could result in blistering of the skin and a 100 fold increase risk in cancer in some individuals. It can also cause loss of vision and is of sufficient intensity to create chemical changes within the body (creation of vitamin D).
Epileptics may have siezures induced by EM fields: http://www.tetrawatch.net/papers/emr_epilepsy.pdf
It is commonly known that cell phone use while driving is a growing cause for accident. The cell phone does not jump up and grab the steering wheel. The typical reason why a cell phone user has a car accident is that they weren't paying attention, their mental function was distracted away from driving. Yet, the same effect is not seen to the same high degree from talking to passengers in the car, eating a sandwhich or listening to the radio. Is the cell phone being held close to the head affecting the brain? Are judgement and awareness being affected? The IEEE study cited above measures a depression in the alpha brain waves.
I agree that common sense is the best rule. Don't stick your head in front of a dish, keep kids away. Common sense would also dictate that nothing is 100% safe, there are plenty of unknowns out there and don't take risks that are not worth the return. If you have light skin, cover up when you go out in the sun, if your skin is more pigmented you have less concern. With EM radiation the risk factors are not yet known or defined. It has been clearly documented that there are biological effects of EM radiation, from buring of flesh to subtle alterations of brain waves. Some effects are obvious, some are not. I think, in most cases, it is best to give people the scientific data known to do date and let them decide for themselves whether something is safe or not, which is what the FCC document tries to do.
> --- > Don Bradner > donb (not don) at arcatapet.com > '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" > towing '07 Jeep Liberty >
Will Sill - 07 Dec 2007 17:14 GMT I see where "Steve" <wondersteve@gmail.com> expresses panic over the idea that there is DANGER DANGER DANGER associated with a 1w sat dish, leaving open the possibility that Steve is Harry Harris in disguise.
::sigh::
Fact is that our living spaces are bombarded incessantly with far more RF energy than a puny sat system generates; for example 50,000 watt radio stations, welding operations, etc, ad nauseum.
Quoting absurd and virtually irrelevant oh-my-gawsh regulations and guidelines creates more danger to the mental health of the thinking-impaired than the output of all sat systems combined.
Will Sill The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Steve - 07 Dec 2007 17:45 GMT >I see where "Steve" <wondersteve@gmail.com> expresses panic over the > idea that there is DANGER DANGER DANGER associated with a 1w sat dish, > leaving open the possibility that Steve is Harry Harris in disguise. I'm not panicked in the least. I'm quite comfortable with EM fields. My head won't fit into most microwave ovens anyway.
> ::sigh:: > > Fact is that our living spaces are bombarded incessantly with far more > RF energy than a puny sat system generates; for example 50,000 watt > radio stations, welding operations, etc, ad nauseum. True. Don't forget mass transit (electric trains) and the deadly magnetic fields from electric cars and buses.
> Quoting absurd and virtually irrelevant oh-my-gawsh regulations and > guidelines creates more danger to the mental health of the > thinking-impaired than the output of all sat systems combined. They may be absurd and irrelevant but the intentions are good. Maybe they were written by the thinking-impaired. For their own good?
> Will Sill > The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill Will Sill - 07 Dec 2007 18:05 GMT I see where "Steve" <wondersteve@gmail.com> contributed:
Will:
>> Quoting absurd and virtually irrelevant oh-my-gawsh regulations and >> guidelines creates more danger to the mental health of the >> thinking-impaired than the output of all sat systems combined. S:
>They may be absurd and irrelevant but the intentions are good. To what place is the road paved with good intentions?
From personal study I assure you that the vast majority of the dumbass, contradictory, sky-is-falling rules, laws, regulations and guidelines throttling our freedoms and choking commerce were formulated and foisted on us by hordes of well-intended nitwits.
Will Sill The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Don Bradner - 07 Dec 2007 19:25 GMT >Wait a minute here. 1 watt is the propagating field (far field) and does >not include the energy stored in the near field. OSHA addresses the issue of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >"NEAR-FIELD: The region located less than one wavelength from the source is >called the "Near-field". OK, I'll bite. Assuming the danger in that area is significant, now we need to know where that source is.
From the context, I would guess you think it is the dish, or somewhere near the dish. It isn't.
The source is the antenna inside the BUC (Block Up Converter), from which the signal travels up a waveguideto the feedhorn, where it is dispersed to the dish, which is merely a reflector, not an antenna or "source" of any kind.
The wavelength we are speaking of is 2.14cm or less (transmit frequency is 14-14.5GHz). Even if we assume the dangers stay present through the entire waveguide, the feedhorn length is greater than twice the wavelength, and there's no ability to get a body part into the feedhorn as it is weather-sealed. Even if you could, the transmission would immediately cease, as I've previously indicated, due to blockage of the receive signal. --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty
Steve - 07 Dec 2007 17:28 GMT According to MotoSat, certain conditions were imposed by the FCC as conditions of their operation. These included mounting the dish 6' above the ground and licensed installers only. You can read it here:
http://www.motosat.com/downloads/internet/#tfes
It says:
"These rules apply to the installation of all Temporary-Fixed Two-Way 0.74 m, 0.98 m
and 1.2 m earth stations using the DIRECWAY service including those mounted and
operated on vehicles, such as an emergency response vehicle or a consumer recreation
vehicle. A "Temporary-Fixed" earth station (TFES) is, according to the FCC rules, an
earth station that changes its location (coordinates) anytime during a six-month period.
For the purposes of this document, all HNS earth stations using DIRECWAY service,
mounted on a vehicle or truck or otherwise used as a transportable antenna for stationary
operation, are considered TFES (Temporary-Fixed Earth Stations).
The FCC has imposed the following conditions on the FCC licenses held by Hughes
Network Systems when operating, installing and deploying Temporary Fixed Earth
Stations and is mandatory for all installations made within the Continental United States
as well as Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands and other U.S. territories.
These conditions are also required by HNS for all other installed locations using the
DIRECWAY service (and may be supplemented by regulatory requirements in other
jurisdictions) in order for Hughes Network Systems to meet its obligations to its space
segment suppliers."
From the downloads available on the page, under TFES documents,
TFES Regulations, conditions #2 and #5.
"2. "Installation" is the physical mounting and wiring of the DIRECWAY Two-Way
Satellite System on a vehicle or other stationary site in order to prepare for correct
operation. The installation and removal of a Temporary-Fixed antenna must only be
done by a MotoSAT/HNS-Certified Installer."
"5. For large vehicles with roof mounts, the height of the bottom lip of the antenna when
fully deployed must be at least six feet above the ground at all times, or six feet above
a surrounding surface which a person may easily access."
Since these are conditions imposed by the FCC, they must not be lawful laws? Does a federal law have to be enacted by Congress or can it be decreed by an agency? The stipulations for TFES are determined on a case by case basis by the FCC since TFES dishes can vary widely. The height requirement is written into the requirements of their license and is not explicit in 47CFR. 47CFR should give the FCC the authority to issue such licenses.
If there is no chance of danger/injury, why is the dish required to be mounted six feet in the air?
People fall down stairs everyday and are hurt, yet they aren't required to wear helmets, airbags or other restraining devices. Why does the FCC impose restrictions that keep the dish 6 feet away from a person?
Is MotoSat simply lying?
Don Bradner - 07 Dec 2007 19:50 GMT >According to MotoSat, certain conditions were imposed by the FCC as >conditions of their operation. These included mounting the dish 6' above the >ground and licensed installers only. You can read it here: Yep, Hughes has repeatedly implied that their company rules, which have no force of law, are imposed by the FCC. Hughes has always completely resisted showing any documentation of this allegation.
You have also added a common misinterpretation of the document in your one para synopsis above. Show me where the words "licensed installer" appear in the document.
FCC licenses are required to install high-power satellite equipment. Typically kick in a the 50-watt 6-meter level. I have never met an FCC-licensed consumer satellite installer, although I concede that they may exist because some installers of high-powered equipment also may do consumer installs.
In the document you quote, "HNS certified" is what is called for. That certification is given via a 1-day course by one of their distributors. Frequently only one member of an installation company attends the class, and that may be the boss, who then hires others to do the actual installs (pay rates are very poor).
In the installation information that you currently can find on the HNS site they use the wording "Professional installation" which is somewhat less than Certified. Do it for money, and you meet their rules.
I think I forgot to answer the CFR 47 question. It is part 25 (which should be obvious). --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty
Ken Harrison - 08 Dec 2007 07:24 GMT > While you looking, Goddam.
Your. It belongs to you.
You're. Contraction for YOU ARE.
Did nobody attempt to learn anything in English class? Was anybody listening?
KH
Don Bradner - 08 Dec 2007 19:44 GMT >> While you looking, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >KH Unlike some here, I don't mind the comments of proof readers. In this case, though, I think you're not paying attention very well. If I had used 'your' it could have easily been seen as a grammatical error. Using 'you' exposes it for what it is: typographical error. The balance of my postings I would hope make it clear that I know how to use the language reasonably well. My mother, an elementary teacher with a master's in English, brung me up well! :)
My fingers often lag my thought processes, sorry to say, causing lost characters. Not that I never make grammatical errors; most common for me is the misuse of their and there even though I know better (as well as how they differ from they're). --- Don Bradner donb (not don) at arcatapet.com '90 Wanderlodge PT40 "Blue Thunder" towing '07 Jeep Liberty
GBinNC - 08 Dec 2007 22:28 GMT >... most common for >me is the misuse of their and there even though I know better (as well >as how they differ from they're). Don't feel bad. My wife, who has two master's degrees and a Ph.D. -- and who is an excellent writer -- cannot remember when to use "lose" and "loose." I've tried every word association trick I can think of to help her, and she still can't keep it straight.
At least she knows that she doesn't know -- and remembers to ask me when she needs help, instead of maybe guessing the wrong one <g>.
GB in NC
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