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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / June 2008

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1973 GMC Project Coach- AZ

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Steve R. - 06 Jun 2008 17:36 GMT
Forgive me if this is taboo....

Pops bought a GMC coach as a restoration project and lost interest. $2500
OBO.

http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/rvs/709936936.html

Thanks!

Signature

Steve

RAM³ - 06 Jun 2008 18:24 GMT
> Forgive me if this is taboo....
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Thanks!

With a bit of Googling you may find the website of the outfit that
rebuilds/refurbishes the GMC motorhomes and resells them.

They not only revamp the interiors but, also, re-power them with Ford V-10s
as a replacement for the Olds 455s that originally came in them.

They used to have an entry on their website for sellers (other than them)
who wanted to part with theirs.
David "The Hamster" Malone - 06 Jun 2008 18:31 GMT
> With a bit of Googling you may find the website of the outfit that
> rebuilds/refurbishes the GMC motorhomes and resells them.

This one...?

http://www.thegmcmotorhomepeople.com/

First try.

David "The Hamster" Malone
Will - 06 Jun 2008 20:40 GMT
>With a bit of Googling you may find the website of the outfit that
>rebuilds/refurbishes the GMC motorhomes and resells them.
>
>They not only revamp the interiors but, also, re-power them with Ford V-10s
>as a replacement for the Olds 455s that originally came in them.

I'm familiar with Cinnabar - I used to own a GMC.  But I cannot find
anything sugesting how one would put a V10 Ford in one.  How is that
done, given the GM (Toronado/Eldorado) transaxle?

Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Road taco - 06 Jun 2008 21:19 GMT
>> With a bit of Googling you may find the website of the outfit that
>> rebuilds/refurbishes the GMC motorhomes and resells them.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill

I was thinking of that, plus, what is the advantage if it could be done?
 The 455 runs a little hot, and drinks gas, but it lasts forever, and
won't bog down pushing an aluminum RV. I always wanted one because of
the roadibilty, safety, and tandem wheels, air ride, etc. Now I'm
spoiled by by 5th wheel and slide out.
Will - 06 Jun 2008 21:42 GMT
>  The 455 runs a little hot, and drinks gas, but it lasts forever, and
>won't bog down pushing an aluminum RV. I always wanted one because of
>the roadibilty, safety, and tandem wheels, air ride, etc. Now I'm
>spoiled by by 5th wheel and slide out.

Excerpts from old but relevant boilerplate -  designed to cure you of
GMC lust:
===============================
You say you're bitten by the GMC bug, and realize the financial
and time commitments. Whether that's true or not you are wise to
ask someone who has outgrown the bug!

You'll NEED, IMO, really good shocks, rear stabilizer bars, and
Wallace front hubs. I consider the latter essential, having suffered
several failures in the original design.  You may well WANT a number
of other mods from Caspro, Cinnabar or others. Personally I would go
for the final drive mods to get closer to the right ratio of around
3.70:1.

The GMC's cult following is well-heeled enough that SOMEBODY will have
or make the parts.  Caspro has a lot of suspension & drive train parts
including a 6-speed AT!  Engine & transaxle are Olds Toronado.
Recently I have been unable to contact Wallace Bearing,  the supplier
of the crucial after-market front hubs, and believe the original
Wallace died and his son has gone outa business. I am confident that
GMC motorhome club people could put you in touch with someone who can
solve that problem.

There have been cases of fires due to failure of the oil cooler
hoses, which DEFINITELY should be replaced with the braided style.

Stick with the 455 engine but do not expect more than 10 mpg unless
you are a real featherfoot. DO NOT tow with the dang thing. Gear
ratios are wrong.  You will find some people who do tow with them
but I think they are nutz.  I was really unhappy with handling when
towing.

There are several negative aspects to this lovely, superbly designed
coach.  Virtually ALL of them are chassis related, since the coach
body is arguably the finest stuff ever mass marketed. Any old crock
of this vintage will need seals, hoses and most rubber replaced.
Windshields are notorious for fogging at the corners but I think can
still be bought for money.  You may have to replace the entire air
suspension system, tubing, valves and bags.

But no amount of money and maintenance will solve the following
problems, which I believe to be important flaws:

    FWD sucks on a heavy MH. You will be limited to good roads,
    gentle grades, and good traction conditions.

    The rear suspension affords the best ride of ANY small MH
    but has lousy braking.  Nothing wrong with the brakes    
    themselves - but the front tandem is on a leading arm, the
    rear on a trailing arm, so braking force is impossible to
    balance.  Result: long stopping distance and smoking rear
    tires.

    The final drive, regardless of gears, is too fragile,
    especially if the engine output is enhanced at all. Mine
    broke the case trying to accelerate from a light towing a
    Pontiac Fiero.    My friend's broke driving solo. Understand
    that EVERYTHING in the drive train except the hubs is    
    straight off the Toronado line. And the hubs are different
    only in having a special 8-bolt mounting flange for truck
    wheels. Its a tribute to the Olds design that it holds up
    at all in this service.

    The steering in inherently sloppy, with two U-joints and
    two sliding joints between the wheel and a steering box
    designed for pickup trucks. (Latter is bad news/good news -
    bad news because it is too light for the job, good news
    because every junkyard will have one.)

There are many people (most moderately wealthy) who have come to
grips with the GMC's weaknesses and are very happy with them.  We
found it entirely impractical despite the admitted charm of a coach
that was stylish, far better built than anything else available (16
gauge aluminum skin, for heaven's sake!), and as smooth a boulevard
cruiser as ever came down the pike. We spent most of the time we
owned ours (A VERY pretty '73 Glacier model, a blue & white
23-footer) crawling around fixing stuff and modifying stuff and
spending money.

I trust that will give you another POV... if you decide to buy one
anyway, save this message for a year and let me know how close I was
to the truth!
====================

Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Road taco - 07 Jun 2008 00:14 GMT
I almost bought one from a friend, and changed my mind because I did see
some major expenditures. He had found a design problem in the dash A/C
and heat ducts. The fan would start before the duct could open, which
would hold the duct partially or completely closed. He had to reverse
the process that the duct would open, then the fan engaged. He also told
me that due to the tandem axle configuration that, when going over a
large bump or uneven ground could cause most to the vehicle weight to
rest on one tire, resulting in failure. He ran very heavy duty radials.
Will - 07 Jun 2008 11:42 GMT
> . . . .  He also told
>me that due to the tandem axle configuration that, when going over a
>large bump or uneven ground could cause most to the vehicle weight to
>rest on one tire, resulting in failure. He ran very heavy duty radials.

Nonsense.  If that were a real problem, we'd see failures daily on
chassis running duals!

BTW, with '73-'76 GMC, you dare not run radials on the OEM wheels.
Reason: radial tires exert more stress on the wheel rim, leading to
fatigue cracking.

BTDT

Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
RAM³ - 07 Jun 2008 17:12 GMT
Will <will@epix.net> wrote in news:4g3l44hs504ubjro5ulvmkgc15f8m04vo9@
4ax.com:

>> . . . .  He also told
>>me that due to the tandem axle configuration that, when going over a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill

Apparently he hasn't studied the geometry of dual axle suspensions. <g>

Most tandem-equipped RVs have an equalizer link to keep the majority of the
weight upon *both* axles/wheels, even when one is jacked up in order to
change tires.

Isn't it wonderful when people talk through their hats? <G>
Will - 08 Jun 2008 13:45 GMT
Road taco:
>>> . . . .  He also told
>>>me that due to the tandem axle configuration that, when going over a
>>>large bump or uneven ground could cause most to the vehicle weight to
>>>rest on one tire, resulting in failure. He ran very heavy duty radials.

Will:
>> Nonsense.  If that were a real problem, we'd see failures daily on
>> chassis running duals!

R:
>Apparently he hasn't studied the geometry of dual axle suspensions. <g>
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Isn't it wonderful when people talk through their hats? <G>

Happens all the time.  Bogus information abounds.

In the case of the GMC, a common air bag carries front & rear tandems.
Weight is carried equally at all times until the suspension reaches
travel limits.  If anything, their tandem setup is far easier on tires
than duals. (Except, of course, for the braking problem mentioned
earlier!)

Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
RAM³ - 08 Jun 2008 20:00 GMT
> Road taco:
>>>> . . . .  He also told
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill

I still remember the "Road & Track" article on the GMC Motorhome when it
was first introduced.

The author(s?) were quite complimentary about the unit (and GMC's
willingness to introduce it) in view of its - then - fuel economy of 7
MPG on their test loop since, at the time, most units only averaged 4 MPG
over the same loop.

The ride comfort *really* impressed them.

Since that time the RV Manufacturers have made tremendous strides in both
fuel economy, interior design/appointments, and reliability but *I* think
that the GMC really "raised the bar" when it was introduced.
Neon John - 08 Jun 2008 22:21 GMT
>I still remember the "Road & Track" article on the GMC Motorhome when it
>was first introduced.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>The ride comfort *really* impressed them.

Our motorcycle racing team was given a GMC by our sponsor.  My only experience
prior to that was a Winnebago, a dealer of which was our previous sponsor.
This thing was heaven.  Being one of the younger members of the crew, I "had"
(really "got to") drive the thing fairly often.  Instant love.  That was the
finest driving and riding MH that I've ever been in.  Contrary to rumor, we
had absolutely no problems with the unit despite running the wheels off it for
the year I was with the team.  They kept it awhile longer after I left.

>Since that time the RV Manufacturers have made tremendous strides in both
>fuel economy, interior design/appointments, and reliability but *I* think
>that the GMC really "raised the bar" when it was introduced.

The fuel economy credit rightfully goes to "Detroit Inc" which perfected
electronic engine management as well as advanced engine designs.  As far as
appointments, the only improvements I see now vs then are in the areas of
appliances.  Specifically better refrigerators and converters.  Get rid of the
tragically 70s colors and patterns and IMO, the GMC interior would be right at
home today.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Save the whales, collect the whole set!
Steve R. - 07 Jun 2008 20:38 GMT
Will,

You sure know your stuff!!!!!

Signature

Steve

2008 Sonata SE- His
2005 Grand Cherokee Laredo- Hers

http://www.realtor.com/realestate/golden+valley-az-86413-1089865380

>>  The 455 runs a little hot, and drinks gas, but it lasts forever, and
>>won't bog down pushing an aluminum RV. I always wanted one because of
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
>
> Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
RAM³ - 07 Jun 2008 03:25 GMT
>>With a bit of Googling you may find the website of the outfit that
>>rebuilds/refurbishes the GMC motorhomes and resells them.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill

You'd get the best answer from *them*.

It's my *impression* that there is a "standard" pattern for Automatic
Transmission-to-Engine connection bolts.
Will - 07 Jun 2008 11:53 GMT

>>>With a bit of Googling you may find the website of the outfit that
>>>rebuilds/refurbishes the GMC motorhomes and resells them.

Cinnabar GMC refurbishes.

>>>They not only revamp the interiors but, also, re-power them with Ford
>>>V-10s as a replacement for the Olds 455s that originally came in them.

Will:
>> I'm familiar with Cinnabar - I used to own a GMC.  But I cannot find
>> anything sugesting how one would put a V10 Ford in one.  How is that
>> done, given the GM (Toronado/Eldorado) transaxle?

R:
>It's my *impression* that there is a "standard" pattern for Automatic
>Transmission-to-Engine connection bolts.

I can't prove a negative, but I find no evidence that a Ford engine
will bolt up to a Toronado transaxle.  Bolt patterns aside, fitting a
chain drive to the V10 crankshaft is not something I'd try.  IOW, I'm
skeptical.

Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Neon John - 08 Jun 2008 07:28 GMT
>Forgive me if this is taboo....
>
>Pops bought a GMC coach as a restoration project and lost interest. $2500
>OBO.
>
>http://lasvegas.craigslist.org/rvs/709936936.html

No problem posting RV for-sale ads here.  If you want folks like me who's
marooned on dialup but who is also chomping at the bit for a GMC to actually
look at your photos then I suggest you learn how to resize them to something
suitable for the net before posting.  I'd love to see your pix but I don't
have the patience to download them.  Resample to 1024X768 at 72dpi (around 60k
files after compression) and then we'll take a look.

John
--
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
Save the whales, collect the whole set!
Matt Colie - 09 Jun 2008 14:02 GMT
> Forgive me if this is taboo....
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Thanks!

Steve,

Go to www.gmcers.org,  find the links at the bottom and start looking
for places to post this.  There are an awful lot of people looking for
another to redo while they drive the one they have.

The only engine successfully transplanted has been the Cadillac 500.  I
like my 455 it just keeps on running.

Matt
A '73 Glacier 23 that tows a toad, nothing leaks, everything works and
it does do 10(towing) on gas without alcohol.

Matt
Will - 09 Jun 2008 18:14 GMT
>A '73 Glacier 23 that tows a toad, nothing leaks, everything works and
>it does do 10(towing) on gas without alcohol.

Ah, the mixed memories - ours was also a pretty '73 Glacier 23.  I did
not care for its handling while towing, even w/a plastic Pontiac
(Fiero) toad.  I've always nurtured a foolish dream of converting one
to diesel pusher configuration, but have finally come to grips with
the reality that I don't have the skills, facilities and time to do it
up right.

Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
Steve R. - 09 Jun 2008 19:17 GMT
One last comment;

My dad actually worked for Revcon and GM wanted to know what they were doing
with the severed front frames they were buying (by the traincar load- Olds
455s with the transaxle attached to a frame structure) A spy bought Revcon
S/N 88 and took it back to Detroit. That's where the GMC came from...maybe
not the first FWD coach, but in my humble opinion, one of the best!

Signature

Steve

2008 Sonata SE- His
2005 Grand Cherokee Laredo- Hers
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE- Ours

http://www.realtor.com/realestate/golden+valley-az-86413-1089865380

>>A '73 Glacier 23 that tows a toad, nothing leaks, everything works and
>>it does do 10(towing) on gas without alcohol.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Will - The self-appointed Curmudgeon of Sill Hill
 
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