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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / September 2008Battery - inverter - coffeemaker
We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W inverter with about 10 feet of #2 wires. A 650W coffeemaker seems to be on the bubble as to working without shutting down the inverter. Sometimes it works, usually it doesn't. An unloaded volt reading at the batteries is 12.16 and at the inverter, 12.07. With the coffeemaker plugged into the inverter, the readings are 10.90 and 10.60. I believe that the inverter shuts down below 10 volts. I am starting to just believe that I need more batteries. Will using larger wires help much or should I just buy more batteries. Maybe I should just find the percolator for the stove. >We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W inverter >with about 10 feet of #2 wires. A 650W coffeemaker seems to be on the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Maybe I should just find the percolator for the stove. All of the above.... Normally the maximum cable length for #2 cable is three feet from the batteries to the inverter. I would suggest that you consider moving the units closer; Using 4 aught welding cable; And possibly adding more batteries or at least more battery capacity. Personally, I like to have around 800 AH capacity if I am going to run anything of any size off the inverter. George >>We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W inverter >>with about 10 feet of #2 wires. A 650W coffeemaker seems to be on the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Personally, I like to have around 800 AH capacity if I am going to run > anything of any size off the inverter. About how many batteries is 800 AH? >>>We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W inverter >>>with about 10 feet of #2 wires. A 650W coffeemaker seems to be on the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >About how many batteries is 800 AH? Depends upon the battery you use. I had four Trojan L-17's on series parallel that gave me 790 AH at 12 volts. I believe that the Trojan 105 has around 225 AH so it would take about eight of them in series parallel. Each deep cycle battery should have the A H rating on it. Some of the "deep cycle" batteries only have about an 85 AH capacity, meaning they will drain fast. If you figure that your coffee maker uses about 1200 watts - then that would be 10 amps at 120 volts. Converting that to 12 volts, you would need 100 amps but figuring the efficiency of the inverter at around 90% would mean that you would be drawing more like 110 amps from the battery (s) for the duration of the time the coffee maker was being used. Figuring that it was on for 20 minutes or 1/3 of an hour, it would draw around 36 AH out of the battery bank. again, depending upon the capacity of that bank, the voltage may draw down too much for the inverter to stay functioning. Do a search on the web for battery status vs. voltage. I do not recall the numbers but do recall that at the 50% mark, the voltage is still over 12 volts... Hope this gives you something to work on. George >>>> We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W inverter >>>> with about 10 feet of #2 wires. A 650W coffeemaker seems to be on the [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > George Fully charged, a 12V battery (a pair in this case) should be reading very close to 12.7V. At the 12.16 reading, if that is at the battery, is indicating almost 50% discharge. At the reading you are indicating, you have 3 possibilities, battery not fully charged, poor connections or failing batteries. Mickey >>>>> We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W >>>>> inverter [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > At the reading you are indicating, you have 3 possibilities, battery not > fully charged, poor connections or failing batteries. I just charged it to 12.7 V so the batteries seem fine. I don't have time to screw with it now, maybe this weekend when we are out. I am using a cigarette lighter plug mounted digital volt meter. It is in a difficult place to observe. Anybody know where I could find a nice digital DC volt meter that could be wall mounted? >>>>>> We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W >>>>>> inverter [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > difficult place to observe. Anybody know where I could find a nice digital > DC volt meter that could be wall mounted? First hit on Google is http://search.altenergystore.com/energy/digital%20volt%20meter John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee >> I am using a cigarette lighter plug mounted digital volt meter. It is in >> a difficult place to observe. Anybody know where I could find a nice >> digital DC volt meter that could be wall mounted? > > First hit on Google is > http://search.altenergystore.com/energy/digital%20volt%20meter Nice find. Thanks! >>>>> With the coffeemaker plugged into the >>>>> inverter, the readings are 10.90 and 10.60. I believe that the inverter [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>>>> works, usually it doesn't. An unloaded volt reading at the batteries is >>>>> 12.16 and at the inverter, 12.07. Forget about those unloaded battery voltage readings. They serve no useful purpose in the real world. :-( Understanding the meaning of battery voltages under varied circumstances is more an art learned from experience, and observing the results from experience, rather than a science. The voltages you are experiencing (10.90 and 10.60) while the batteries are under such a tremendous load, represent routine expectations for batteries under FULL load. Nothing at all unsual happening here. Notwithstanding, I believe that heating coffee on batteries when using a tiny bit of available propane would a heap more sense! One of my neighbours has one of those half-million $$ Essex rigs that runs ***entirely*** on storage batteries . . . . like, I'm not only talking cooking, but actually heating the rig on battery power!! I haven't checked this out for sure, but from what I understand, he doesn't carry any propane at all!! And with a 48,000 lb chassis to carry a few tons of batteries, it might even be workable . . . ?? >Fully charged, a 12V battery (a pair in this case) should be reading >very close to 12.7V. At the 12.16 reading, if that is at the battery, >is indicating almost 50% discharge. > >At the reading you are indicating, you have 3 possibilities, battery not >fully charged, poor connections or failing batteries. Mickey (not a real name) has spouted a bunch of crap. This Mickey guy doesn't understand so much as the elementary basics of storage batteries, let alone being in a position to advise others!! Duh!! His stoopid response, sez that Mickey doesn't know squat! >We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W inverter >with about 10 feet of #2 wires. A 650W coffeemaker seems to be on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >batteries. Will using larger wires help much or should I just buy more >batteries. Sheesh! Don't you have propane? Even if your inverter did work, it seems like a very inefficient way of doing something as making coffee. Why would you want to burn expensive propane when a properly installed inverter and battery bank is free. If you're traveling from Campsite to Campsite, most site fees include your electric use, which will bring you battery bank up to full charge. This gentleman has 2 few batteries in his battery bank. I have 4 (500 amp hours) and can run a coffee maker, toaster, and microwave in normal usage for 2 days and still have 50% of the battery bank. I suggest that if the 2 existing batteries are more than 2 years old, that he replace them bank for 4 new deep cycle batteries. Problem solved. Traveling >>We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W >>inverter [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Sheesh! Don't you have propane? Even if your inverter did work, it > seems like a very inefficient way of doing something as making coffee. Hellow folks I put togeather a small solar trailer to stay in when I go across the Long Island to work for a week or 2 at a time. In My bungalow I have 9/51 watt = 459 watts of PV panels and 8/6 volt / 220 amphr golf cart batteries / 1000 watt Xantrex inverter / Trace C40 charge controller and all necessary remotes. There is a 400 watt Air-X wind turbine to add for the short sun days over the winter. I'll post a few links, hopefuly they will take to my pics. [IMG]http://i36.tinypic.com/2d8gqad.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i37.tinypic.com/2aig8ls.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i36.tinypic.com/1zgxrog.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i34.tinypic.com/2utnpsz.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i38.tinypic.com/11jvo90.jpg[/IMG] Peace along the way Dennis the bus dweller N.Y. > We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W inverter > with about 10 feet of #2 wires. A 650W coffeemaker seems to be on the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Maybe I should just find the percolator for the stove. > Hellow folks > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Heres the bungalow in the sun [IMG]http://i33.tinypic.com/97jfk6.jpg[/IMG] Peace along the way Dennis the bus dweller N.Y. > > We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W inverter > > with about 10 feet of #2 wires. A 650W coffeemaker seems to be on the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Heres the bungalow in the sun [IMG]http://i33.tinypic.com/97jfk6.jpg[/IMG] Peace along the way Dennis the bus dweller N.Y. 12.16 volts dc is not nearly fully charged for those. 13.6 to 13.8 vdc would be an appropriate 'full charge' for those batts in series. Check to see that your voltage regulator is putting out the proper voltage. (13.6 to 13.8 vdc) >>> We have two six volt golf cart batteries hooked to a 2000/4000W inverter >>> with about 10 feet of #2 wires. A 650W coffeemaker seems to be on the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > be an appropriate 'full charge' for those batts in series. Check to see that > your voltage regulator is putting out the proper voltage. (13.6 to 13.8 vdc) If you have a stove, use it. If you don't want to go get a bottle of propane once in a while, use a stove with small bottles and buy them occasionally at W*Mart. With solar as the primary power source, it makes little sense to use it all up just for a cup of coffee. Another thought is to look into the small appliances that are used by truckers. I'm sure you can find a small (less than 650 W) coffee pot, maybe even one that runs on 12 volts. Check you local truck stops. Here is an example... http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/12vol5cupdel.html John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee >12.16 volts dc is not nearly fully charged for those. 13.6 to 13.8 vdc would >be an appropriate 'full charge' for those batts in series. Check to see that >your voltage regulator is putting out the proper voltage. (13.6 to 13.8 vdc) This posting is total horseshit! Steve Vaughan doesn't have a clue what he is talking about! >>12.16 volts dc is not nearly fully charged for those. 13.6 to 13.8 vdc >>would [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This posting is total horseshit! Steve Vaughan doesn't have a clue > what he is talking about! Check any 12vdc system... the charge voltage will alwys be 13.6 to 13.8 vdc. For instance, go check your RV batt at unloaded, full charge, and come back and post what voltage you found. >>12.16 volts dc is not nearly fully charged for those. 13.6 to 13.8 vdc >>would [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > This posting is total horseshit! Steve Vaughan doesn't have a clue > what he is talking about! At 12 volts DC, any 12 vdc rated battery is far under 50% charged, (probably closer to 25%) and if kept at that state for a period of weeks or months, this will drastically shorten the life of the battery due to sulfation. If his batts are being kept at approximately 25%, and he then puts them under load, I'm not surprised that what he's trying to do isn't working. All but the smallest load would have a similar result. In a 12 volt Direct Current charging circuit, in "bulk charging" stage, the battery is charged to the range of ~14 vdc or greater. A "smart charger" will then turn off or continue to "trickle charge" after this "full charge" voltage has been reached. When the battery voltage has fallen to somewhere above 50% charge, or about 12.6vdc to 12.9vdc no load, (the range below which sulfation will more readily and quickly occur, thereby hastening the demise of your battery) the charger will automatically kick back on in full-charge mode, and so forth. Even the "trickle charge" stage of a 'smart' charger is around 13.5vdc Note: An "equalizing charge" can be even greater for a 12vdc circuit, in the neighborhood of ~16vdc, which is why any 12vdc equipment should be disconnected from the circuit (turned off) before performing an equalizing charge. The bottom line is: If your charging curcuit is working properly, you will find that a fully charged 12vdc battery (or the equivalent in 2 lead-acid 6vdc batts in series or 4 in series-paralell) will show about ~13.7vdc just after being disconnected from the charging circuit. Which part of this needs clearing up, Stan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery http://www.rvtechstop.com/articles/12vsen.pdf http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_battery http://www.donrowe.com/battery_charger/samlex_batterycharger_12v.html >At 12 volts DC, any 12 vdc rated battery is far under 50% charged, (probably >closer to 25%) and if kept at that state for a period of weeks or months, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >Which part of this needs clearing up, Stan? That 13.7 reading is a totally misleading value. It represents the residual charge from the charging voltage. Best to load the batteries with a 1-2 Amp load for a while and then check. In fact, as a verification of what I say, put a 1-2 A load on a battery reading 13.7 and it will immediately drop to ~12.6. Dammit people, you cannot change the laws of physics/chemistry, no matter how you try. --- $$$$$$$$$%% Yours truly, Johnny Dollar! >>The bottom line is: If your charging curcuit is working properly, you will >>find that a fully charged 12vdc battery (or the equivalent in 2 lead-acid [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Dammit people, you cannot change the laws of physics/chemistry, no > matter how you try. My point stands- either the OP's charger isn't charging properly, or he has a bad batt(s). His voltage readings are not indicative of a functional 12vdc setup, which is why he can't brew coffee. Care to add anything that will help the OP? >>>The bottom line is: If your charging curcuit is working properly, you will >>>find that a fully charged 12vdc battery (or the equivalent in 2 lead-acid [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >setup, which is why he can't brew coffee. Care to add anything that will >help the OP? Maybe not much help, but a different approach. I met a fellow pulling a Scamp 13' with a Jeep Wrangler. He had a large inverter in the glove box of the Jeep, hardwired to the Jeep battery and a 120VAC extension cord back to the Scamp. In the morning, he would fire up the Jeep, turn on the inverter, go back inside and brew his coffee. When the pot was finished, he would turn off the jeep. Pete >>On Mon, 8 Sep 2008 "Steven Vaughan" wrote: >>The bottom line is: If your charging curcuit is working properly, you will [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Dammit people, you cannot change the laws of physics/chemistry, no >matter how you try. Bottom line . . . battery voltages don't mean squat; and provide absolutely no useful information to anyone who has to ask about battery voltages! For a seasoned veteran who is knowledgeable in 12 VDC systems, voltage readings can be useful. For a neophyte, don't even think about going that route! Such reading will tell you nothing! To Steve Vaughan, I apologize for being so harsh; but it tends to irk me when people post totally wrong, and potentially destructive information. Mere battery voltage readings mean absolutely squat without calculating into the equation, essential stuff like: - time since last charge; - current load; - time since last load; - extent of last load; - temperature variance from the 77F degree standard; You can very well have almost totally dead batteries exhibiting so- called appropriate voltages; when hydrometer readings reveal the opposite. So when someone as unknowledgeable as Steve comes along spewing battery voltage nonsense . . . . > Mere battery voltage readings mean absolutely squat without > calculating into the equation, essential stuff like: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So when someone as unknowledgeable as Steve comes along spewing > battery voltage nonsense . . . . Electronics technician for 20+ years, working on 12vdc systems- mainly alarm systems, CCTV, access control, etc. I know a thing or two about batteries and charging systems, friend. >> Mere battery voltage readings mean absolutely squat without calculating >> into the equation, essential stuff like: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > alarm systems, CCTV, access control, etc. I know a thing or two about > batteries and charging systems, friend. You don't know sh.t about batteries.  Signature"Well, it don't make the sun shine, but at least it don't deepen the sh.t." -- Straiter Empy, in _Riddley_Walker_ by Russell Hoban >>> So when someone as unknowledgeable as Steve comes along spewing battery >>> voltage nonsense . . . . [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You don't know sh.t about batteries. I know that: "> > An unloaded volt reading at the batteries is > > 12.16 and at the inverter, 12.07. With the coffeemaker plugged into the > > inverter, the readings are 10.90 and 10.60" means that he has batteries that are nearly drained, either from improper charging, or the batts can no longer hold a full charge. (which would not be surprising if they have been kept at 12.16vdc for a while- Can you say 'sulfation'? I knew that you could). Have anything useful to add? You must be the resident troll, Stan/Devine. Get a life. Plonk. >>>> So when someone as unknowledgeable as Steve comes along spewing >>>> battery voltage nonsense . . . . [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > You must be the resident troll, Stan/Devine. Get a life. Plonk. You're the resident idiot and fuckwad. And you still don't know sh.t about batteries. Signature"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints - The sinners are much more fun." [Billy Joel, from "Only the Good Die Young"] I'm blocking this ahole. Steve knows what he's talking about. >>>>> So when someone as unknowledgeable as Steve comes along spewing >>>>> battery voltage nonsense . . . . [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > You're the resident idiot and fuckwad. And you still don't know sh.t > about batteries. > I'm blocking this ahole. Steve knows what he's talking about. You're so bad. You can't even spell a.shole, let alone know what one is. If you're too chicken sh.t to write the words out, you a), shouldn't be here, this is Usenet, and b), shouldn't be playing with the big boys. And Vaughan is an idiot. Always has been. SignatureQ: Do you know what the death rate around here is? A: One per person. >>>> So when someone as unknowledgeable as Steve comes along spewing battery >>>> voltage nonsense . . . . >>> >>> Electronics technician for 20+ years, working on 12vdc systems- mainly >>> alarm systems, CCTV, access control, etc. I know a thing or two about >>> batteries and charging systems, friend. >> You don't know sh.t about batteries. > >I know that: Those battery voltages would be completely normal for healthy fully charged batteries placed under that kind of load! Steve doesn't know squat about 12 volt battery systems. >Maybe I should just find the percolator for the stove. That would be the simplest solution. I myself use a manual Mellitta drip maker. Pour boiling water over grounds, you are done. Eventually I threw away the glass pot and found a metal one, so I can heat up the coffee on the stove instead of having to run the microwave. Works for me. Bob Hi! Been dry camping alone at Historical tractor shows this summer and discovered Maxwell House singles. You treat them like a tea bag, pour hot water in a cup, dunk the bag, let steep until the colour is right. Good for 2 cups. Heat the water any way you want. Al >>Maybe I should just find the percolator for the stove. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Bob |
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