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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / RVs / October 2004Bad Advice from Motorhome Magazine !
This magazine appears to have given one of its readers very notably shallow and just plain wrong advice in its June 04 ³Hot Line² column. Their reader complained that a company called ³BullEk Corp.² (dba Diamond Caverns Resort, Green Mountain, The Oaks, Three Flags, Rondout Valley, Beaver Valley, and Hidden Cove) is demanding that he pay quarterly maintenance fees for the rest of his life even after he notified them in writing that he did not intend to use their facilities. The reader had become physically disabled and would no longer be able to enjoy the camping experience as he once did so he wanted to forfeit his membership. Their reply to him was that he needed to supply the following information to them: 1. Written description of his medical condition 2. Its impact on his financial well-being 3. A supporting letter from a physician 4. The impact of the illness on his ability to use his membership 5. A description of his current income, expenses and assets 6. Proof that he had attempted to sell his membership for a period of at least six months. The company¹s Director of Membership Services, Ms. Annette Wockenfuss, stated in a letter to the magazine that they would ³consider² his request to terminate the membership if he would either: > Sell the membership to someone else (who would apparently take on the lifelong burden of maintenance fees) or > Supply the following information: 1. Proof of their efforts to sell their membership (newspaper ads, etc.) 2. More specific information about his physical disability 3. Specific information about any physical disability of his wife. Even then - they only offered to put the unwanted membership on ³hold² for 6 months while the company ³considers² the request. The company, she said, still expects the reader to continue to pay maintenance fees while they consider the request. NAM Responded to Motorhome Magazine and stated in part: ³Please consider that you may have performed a great disservice to (the reader who asked for your help) and your other readers who will take your response and that of the BulEk Corp. as gospel. Several Attorneys General, trial attorneys and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), we believe, would take issue with the conclusions presented in your Hot Line article. We have worked with Attorneys General in several states, including Florida and Kentucky, concerning the alleged ³never ending (lifetime) obligation² to pay maintenance fees (dues) to a camping club. The campground¹s expectation that the camper will make such payments for the rest of their lives or alternatively trick someone else into such an obligation is never made clear at the time of the sale.² The magazine has not responded to NAM or anyone else that we know of... NAM is preparing a package for review by the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) concerning this and several similar cases. This kind of tactic is abusive, unfair, and quite likely illegal. We have suggested to the reader that his money would be better spent for a good attorney than for never ending maintenance fees for a membership that he will not use. It would also be unfair for him to trick someone else into such a lifelong financial commitment. We (NAM) are still interested in any suggestions this newsgroup might have to improve our draft letter to the FTC (make it more compelling, etc.) That draft is posted for your review at: http://www.natlassoc.org/bad/camp/ I see where Dan Hopper <natlassoc@earthlink.net> contributed, in part: >. . . . a company called ³BullEk Corp.² (dba Diamond >Caverns Resort, Green Mountain, The Oaks, Three Flags, Rondout Valley, >Beaver Valley, and Hidden Cove) is demanding that he pay quarterly >maintenance fees for the rest of his life even after he notified them in >writing that he did not intend to use their facilities. Dan, I for one appreciate your continuing efforts to deal with so-called membership CG abuses such as this. You are doing a service by helping people understand that they should use great care in signing up for a "membership". As you know, some are on the up & up, but there are some really bad apples in the barrel. Shame on MOTORHOME magazine for their sorry handling of the subject complaint! Will Sill "Dan Hopper" <natlassoc@earthlink.net> wrote (in part): > This magazine appears to have given one of its readers very notably shallow > and just plain wrong advice in its June O04 ³Hot Line² column. In summary, the magazine told the gentleman that he had signed a contract, and that the contract was probably legally binding. Therefore, he should have been very careful *before* he signed the contract. IMO, that was *excellent* advice. It doesn't make most of us very happy, but we should expect to be bound by the terms and conditions of the contracts we sign.  SignatureD.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762 dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com Thank you for your response. His contract, and typical contracts like his, do not state that he must pay maintenance fees for the rest of his life. Nor is such an expectation mentioned directly or indirectly in the sales presentation. The contract 'does' state that members who become delinquent in their maintenance fees may be denied use of the facilities. If you are a member of a camping club - check your contract. You might very well find that even 'your' contract avoids instructions on how you can terminate your membership. Don't be surprised. We haven't found one yet and we have looked at many. Most people, particularly us campers, are just too trusting and the membership contracts we sign are daunting indeed. Those contracts often allude to 'Campground Rules and Regulations' that we don't even see until after we have signed the membership agreement. The old adage "caveat emptor" (let the buyer beware) that we learned in high school evaporates in a sea of sales puff, high pressure, and reassurance from the salesman's tome: "Don't worry about that complicated contract. You can trust me. You do want to enjoy our beautiful campground, don't you?"... You might expect that only poorly educated people could get caught in such a scheme as the ones we are talking about. Not so. We have complaints from people from several professions including teachers, engineers, etc... The primary difference is that the more education a person has - the quicker they realize that they do NOT have to pay for the rest of their lives and the more willing they are to face down the schemers 'threat' to sue. I think we must have compassion for our fellows (sure - girls too) that get caught in these schemes. Remember that the schemers have very practiced and polished sales pitches. Their contracts are constructed by attorneys that are particularly skilled in concealing important truths from customers. NAM (our non-profit public service organization) wants people to know that they are not alone in opposing the unfairly one sided and abusive tactics engaging in by too many camping clubs. We are trying to educate other campers so more of us can help spread the word about the bad apples in this industry. We also think it is important to note that there are honest and fair apples in the same camping industry basket. It appears to be up to you and I and others like us to tell our friends who the good guys are and how to tell the difference. Sorry for the long post. I guess I talk too much. I just feel that there are people who need to know what others have gone through and how they beat the bad guys. It's frustrating that we can't reach more folks that need this information. Dan Hopper, Chmn NAM ...................................... On 8/30/04 10:04 PM, in article > "Dan Hopper" <natlassoc@earthlink.net> wrote (in part): > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > It doesn't make most of us very happy, but we should expect to be bound by > the terms and conditions of the contracts we sign. > Thank you for your response. > > His contract, and typical contracts like his, do not state that he must pay > maintenance fees for the rest of his life. snipped Since Rondout Valley is mentioned, is his contract made in New York? If so, he's bound for life to his fees. A personal friend, a lawyer, tried her best to get a couple loose from one and found she couldn't. We had a membership in one that had that hook and were offered a chance to donate it to our local public tv station. We jumped at the chance. We bought ours in a weak moment. Our son's wife has passed away and we thought the park would be a nice place to bring the kids to. It turned out to have a rough crowd with kids kinda rough around the edges. We took them a couple of times and that was mostly it. HD in CNY Odd! The NY Attorney General won a lawsuit (judgement) and an injunction against a company called Thousand Adventures of New York, I think it was in 1999. Some lawyers might be embarrassed to admit to their peers that they were victimised in this way. Not all lawyers are the right lawyers for this kind of case. Your friend isn't the only lawyer that has been taken in by one of these schemes. The victim's contract, in our case, was initiated at Diamond Caverns Resort. Dan Hopper NAM ............................. On 8/31/04 4:32 PM, in article 2pk5jhFlvg06U1@uni-berlin.de, "HDinNY" wrote: >> Thank you for your response. >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and that was mostly it. > HD in CNY > The contract 'does' state that members who become delinquent in their > maintenance fees may be denied use of the facilities. Dan, Isn't this a way out of the contract. The penalty for "non payment" is "denial of use". Unless there are additional penalties spelled out in the contract, one only needs to stop payment to end it. Sounds easy to me. Ron >> The contract 'does' state that members who become delinquent in their >> maintenance fees may be denied use of the facilities. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ron Not in New York. You still were liable for dues and they would go after you in court. HD in CNY > >> The contract 'does' state that members who become delinquent in their > >> maintenance fees may be denied use of the facilities. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Not in New York. You still were liable for dues and they > would go after you in court. In every state (AFAIK), it depends upon what is actually *written* in the contract. That's why it's vital to *read* the contract before *signing* the contract! SignatureD.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762 dj[underscore]osborn at yahoo dot com I am one of those people that actually read the entire contracts of things I sign, for many reasons. It DOES take time, and it DOES annoy my wife, and it DOES tick off a few salespeople and their managers, but if I am going to be bound by something I want to know what it is. If I don't understand something I ask. If the contract references something else I want to see it beforehand and have it included as an addendum. It generally takes a full day to buy real estate, and most of an afternoon to buy a car, but in the end I know what I've signed up for. Also, I have found things I don't like and have negotiated their removal. Conversely, I have found things things missing that I get included as an addendum. Most of the times it works out, sometimes it does not. If it does not, then they don't get my money. How did I get this way? Experience. From what: bad decisions early on. (There is saying related to this but I can't recall it right now.) >> >> The contract 'does' state that members who become delinquent in their >> >> maintenance fees may be denied use of the facilities. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the > contract! Thank you for this post and for the exceptional letter I just read on your Web site. I can't help believing that it will get the attention it deserves once we get Crown Prince of Bad Apples & Company out of the White House and eliminate the trickle-down effects of their toxic influence, which gives the green flag to the kind of corporate behavior you have properly identified, and turns its back on the victims of such abuses, for the want of campaign contributions. George Alexander >Thank you for your response. > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] >> It doesn't make most of us very happy, but we should expect to be bound by >> the terms and conditions of the contracts we sign. Thank you for this post and for the exceptional letter I just read on your Web site. I can't help believing that it will get the attention it deserves once we get Crown Prince of Bad Apples & Company out of the White House and eliminate the trickle-down effects of their toxic influence, which gives the green flag to the kind of corporate behavior you have properly identified, and turns its back on the victims of such abuses, for the want of campaign contributions. George Alexander HUH??????????????? WTFO?????????? >Thank you for this post and for the exceptional letter I just read on >your Web site. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >HUH??????????????? WTFO?????????? Hi, Just a political activist. Probably never hear from him again. Take care and Happy Campin... RichA "We Get To Soon Olde and To Late Smart" Holy Crap George! I'll bet GWB & company were responsible for all those hurricanes, sun spots, and your dandruff too. Get a life!!!!! >Thank you for this post and for the exceptional letter I just read on >your Web site. [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] >>> It doesn't make most of us very happy, but we should expect to be bound by >>> the terms and conditions of the contracts we sign. Dan, A good way to get action from a government agency is to get a member of congress involved. The main objective of every congressperson is to get re-elected and this is a perfect way for one to show help for constituents -- particularly elderly. I have read your letter on cited website and think it may be too broad. Suggest you demand action on a single, well-documented case and then go from there. HTH Carl . Thank you Carl, We are compiling what we think are well documented cases on 'each' of the camping clubs mentioned in the letter. Our concern is that the FTC needs to know that this is a 'trend' in the industry that needs attention and not just isolated cases. There will be attachments to the letter for each of the companies and cases that we cite. These attachments will identify the specific complainant, contact information, a summary of the complaint, and identity and contact information of the particular company being complained about. I think you have a good idea about getting a congressperson involved. Not sure yet which congresspersons might be the best choice. Would probably be a good idea to also note on the letter to the FTC that cc's went to congresspersons (somebody) and (somebody else). Will see if we can find good ideas from the states where the 'victims' live and not just from the states where the home offices of the schemers are located. I'm glad we asked this newsgroup for input. Dan Hopper, Chmn NAM ............................... On 8/31/04 1:17 AM, in article ueGdnR_s2td9lKncRVn-rA@sedona.net, "Carl" wrote: > Dan, > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > . snipped > I think you have a good idea about getting a congressperson involved. Not > sure yet which congresspersons might be the best choice. Would probably be a snipped I'd like to suggest Hillary Clinton. She's a fighter for causes like this and would make a good effort. HD in CNY > This magazine appears to have given one of its readers very notably shallow > and just plain wrong advice in its June Œ04 ³Hot Line² column. Just recall that Motor Home is owned by the same firm as Coast to Coast and.... Signature-------------------------------------------------------- Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read RV and Camping FAQ can be found at http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv |
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