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Car Forum / Saab Cars / June 2004is it a turbo
Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg exhaust)... they have trouble matching my model... Insurance company said "there's no such model"... she could match it as a CDE but not CD... (and they insurance CDE's differently) or they say "is it the turbo"... I say well its an LPT ... they say again "is it the turbo"... ... or they say "is it injected" ... I say "they all are aren't they?" I'm beginning to doubt what I've got... I don't want to say turbo to the insurance co if that unnecessarily sticks the premium up... nor do I want to get the wrong parts .... Any advice on what I've got?... > Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... > But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > .... > Any advice on what I've got?... Then try another insurance co. It often amazes me that people who are in a business don't know what they're dealing with. Motor insurance people are in business of insuring motor vehicle, hence they should have lists of all possible makes and models. Saab Ecopower was a well known engine range, in fact I told them that my 1993 LPT was the same as Ecopower, and they accepted although this label started from 1994 MY. Thanks .... Is there a brief / laymans comparison of the differences between turbo, lpt, ecopower and injection on Saab engines... Also how can I easily find out definately which I have... assuming the logbook might not be correct? (description truncated...) I remember there was a code on the car somewhere ... but I've misplaced my handbook? thanks Andrew >> Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... >> But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > as Ecopower, and they accepted although this label started from 1994 > MY. > Thanks .... > Is there a brief / laymans comparison of the differences between turbo, lpt, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I remember there was a code on the car somewhere ... but I've misplaced my > handbook? As grunf said, look under the bonnet on the exhaust side of the engine. Next look if it has a turbo gauge. CSE/CDE models without turbo were very rare, but I was once shown one by a salesman. > Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... > But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > ..... > Any advice on what I've got?... Well, is it a turbo? Look goddamit! Does it have a turbo attached to the engine or not? If it has, the next thing to determine is whether it's a LPT or FPT. If it's a LPT, it probably doesn't have a turbo gauge, and definitely won't have an APC solenoid.  SignatureGrunff > If it has, the next thing to determine is whether it's a LPT or FPT. If > it's a LPT, it probably doesn't have a turbo gauge, and definitely won't > have an APC solenoid. I disagree, I have a 2.0 lpt and it does have an APC solenoid. > it's a LPT, it probably doesn't have a turbo gauge, and definitely won't > have an APC solenoid. At least, i think it's an APC solenoid on the radiator http://www.nodomainname.co.uk/Saab/engine.jpg >>it's a LPT, it probably doesn't have a turbo gauge, and definitely won't >>have an APC solenoid. > > At least, i think it's an APC solenoid on the radiator > > http://www.nodomainname.co.uk/Saab/engine.jpg That is an APC solenoid, but I'll have to take your word on your car being an LPT - never seen an LPT with APC. SignatureGrunff > >>it's a LPT, it probably doesn't have a turbo gauge, and definitely won't > >>have an APC solenoid. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That is an APC solenoid, but I'll have to take your word on your car > being an LPT - never seen an LPT with APC. Which part is the APC solenoid? Or perhaps: Where should I look? > Which part is the APC solenoid? Or perhaps: Where should I look? Look at the point where the radiator top hose attaches to the radiator. A couple of inches to the left of that? I assume that thing with hoses going down towards the turbo is the APC solenoid because that's where it is on my 9k. SignatureGrunff > > Which part is the APC solenoid? Or perhaps: Where should I look? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -- > Grunff My 9k is an lpt and looks exactly as the posted picture. BTW I can just imagine thousands of lpt owners looking under the bonnet :-) > My 9k is an lpt and looks exactly as the posted picture. BTW I can just > imagine thousands of lpt owners looking under the bonnet :-) Ok, so looks like the lpt has APC - can't think why! That means the only sensible way to tell whether it's a LPT or FPT is to hook a pressure gauge to one of the vac hoses, attach the gauge to the dash and take it for a spin. SignatureGrunff > That means the only sensible way to tell whether it's a LPT or FPT is to > hook a pressure gauge to one of the vac hoses, attach the gauge to the > dash and take it for a spin. but isn't that always going to be the case because there are other mods that can be done to make that lpt into an fpt anyway. :) Mine boosts to 0.6 bar courtesy of 3 washers between the wastegate actuator and the mounting plate. Not my doing either, that's how I inherited the car. David. >>> it's a LPT, it probably doesn't have a turbo gauge, and definitely won't >>> have an APC solenoid. >> >> At least, i think it's an APC solenoid on the radiator >> >> http://www.nodomainname.co.uk/Saab/engine.jpg > That is an APC solenoid, but I'll have to take your word on your car > being an LPT - never seen an LPT with APC. My mate's 1994 9000 CSE has one of those solenoids. His boosts to around half a bar, so it's definitely an LPT. His is a 2.0L model. The 2.3L models were certainly FPT., but were the 2.0L all considered LPT on the face-lift 9000s? Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > My mate's 1994 9000 CSE has one of those solenoids. His boosts to around > half a bar, so it's definitely an LPT. His is a 2.0L model. The 2.3L models > were certainly FPT., but were the 2.0L all considered LPT on the face-lift > 9000s? Nope: 9000 CC (+CD) 1985 - 1988 = 2,0 HPT 175 Bhp 9000 CC/CS (+CD) 1889 - 1998 = 2,0 LPT 150 Bhp. 2,3 LPT 170 Bhp 2,3 HPT 200 Bhp + the different N/A-engines. Cheers! >Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... >But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >"is it the turbo"... >... or they say "is it injected" .. Here are the specs for the US 1996 9000 Saab. It looks like the US CS/CSE is the same as the Euro CD/CDE. http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/models/1996/9000sel.html In that case, you've got the LPT turbo. The CDE has the full turbo. You've got fuel injection. The LPT = Light Pressure Turbo. It's always on, sort of like variable power steering. laurak@madmousergraphics.com http://www.madmousergraphics.com web design, print design, photography > The LPT = Light Pressure Turbo. It's always on, sort of like variable power > steering. What do you mean by always on? Aren't all turbos always on?! The lpt behaviour is to build boost accordingly though not as high as the full pressure turbo. Saying almost on implies to me that it's always boosting to 0.4bar (or thereabouts) and that's not the case. David. >>The LPT = Light Pressure Turbo. It's always on, sort of like variable power >>steering. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pressure turbo. Saying almost on implies to me that it's always > boosting to 0.4bar (or thereabouts) and that's not the case. I think what Laura was saying is that with an LPT the boost pressure isn't modulated. It tops out at ~.4 bar regardless. With a FPT the boost pressure is modulated; it tops out at a pressure which depends on a whole number of variables (air temp, air pressure, fuel type etc.). SignatureGrunff > Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... > But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > .... > Any advice on what I've got?... Try this VIN decoder: http://www.saab9000.com/information/vin.php > > Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... > > But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > http://www.saab9000.com/information/vin.php Not much help. My car came up with the following: Specification for Saab 9000 VIN: **************** Model year 1993 Model series "D" Body style 5-door CS Engine Unknown engine type for model year Transmission 5-speed manual Built at Trollhattan line A > Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... > But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > .... > Any advice on what I've got?... Been there done that ... saab themselves said to me: LPT is a turbo! So for insurance purposes if your car is LPT or Ecopower you have a turbo ... your next problem is to differentiate yours from the full turbo model so your premium does not go higher. My trick if they can't located my car is to ask them to tell me what models they see for my year + engine etc. Regards Charles SignaturePlease remove _removeme_ to reply. Work: http://www.somis.dundee.ac.uk/ Hobby: http://www.egothor.org/ When you go to a parts store, you have a turbo. This affects the stuff they are looking at. For an insurance company, get what you can get. Let them know it is not a "Turbo" model, there is no turbo gage after all. Those were the CDE/CSE and Aero as we all know. Tell them it is a base model 9k 4dr for 1996 and see if that is any better. As for non turbo CS/CSE that was 93 and 94 only as far as I know. 95-97 CS are all LPT and CSE are all 200 HP FPT. KeithG > Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... > But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > .... > Any advice on what I've got?... > For an insurance company, get what you can get. Let them know it is not > a "Turbo" model, there is no turbo gage after all. Those were the > CDE/CSE and Aero as we all know. Tell them it is a base model 9k 4dr for > 1996 and see if that is any better. Well that's one way to invalidate your policy if it comes to crunch! Denying that there's a turbo when there ever so clearly is, doen't exactly take an insurance assessor to have more than a couple of brain cells. I don't have any guages to tell me that there are "wheels" or "engine" in my car so I guess I don't have those either. :) David. They are going to screw you anyway! They did me. Best to pay as little as possible ion ins with full coverage and assume that you will be screwed on replacement. It is a numbers game and there are just not enough of these to get a good picture of resale value... The problem is that this is not an either/or situation like the INS agencies want to believe. All of these have turbos, at least in the US. The 'Turbo' or high performance model (which is a higher trim level as well) is a CSE and the ultimate performance model (and top trim level as well) is an Aero. There is a jump in (replacement) price to go from a CS to a CSE to an Aero. It is best to figure out how the INS wants to characterize it. If there is a grey area, you will need to document what you have or ask your agent if you can pay the premium for a CSE and only have a CS. $0.02 Keith >>For an insurance company, get what you can get. Let them know it is not >>a "Turbo" model, there is no turbo gage after all. Those were the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > David. > believe. All of these have turbos, at least in the US. The 'Turbo' or > high performance model (which is a higher trim level as well) is a CSE > and the ultimate performance model (and top trim level as well) is an > Aero. There is a jump in (replacement) price to go from a CS to a CSE to I know, I rate insurers lower than pond life. However, just to throw everything askew, I insured my newer 9000 Aero cheaper than my 2.0 CD lpt, both with the same insurer! The call centre operator couldn't explain it either. The *only* difference was that the Aero would be in the garage overnight but that still didn't account for the amount of difference. David. >However, just to throw everything askew, I insured my newer 9000 Aero >cheaper than my 2.0 CD lpt, both with the same insurer! The newer 9000 may have a better safety rating or better crash test results. Or it may have crash tests results where the earlier car didn't which allows the insurance company to make a better judgement of potential for loss. laurak@madmousergraphics.com http://www.madmousergraphics.com web design, print design, photography > The newer 9000 may have a better safety rating or better crash test results. Or > it may have crash tests results where the earlier car didn't which allows the > insurance company to make a better judgement of potential for loss. Well maybe but basically what happened was that I had one 9000 insured and an Aero with no insurance. I wanted to put them both on the road and the insurer offered an NCD match on car number 2. If I went through both cars individually, the lpt came out slightly cheaper but when done as an NCD match came out slightly higher so they must have a loading on car number 2 even though they match NCD. Either way, to insure an Aero and a second 9000 for around 500 quid wasn't bad I didn't think. David. > It is a numbers game and there are just not > enough of these to get a good picture of resale value... The problem is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and the ultimate performance model (and top trim level as well) is an > Aero. The point has been made by others, but if your insurance company doesn't know enough about Saabs to know that all models in the US in that year are Turbo, you want to go with a different insurance company. Shop around, you'll probably save money in the process, even by sticking with the "big names". I had an insurance company who wanted to put aftermarket glass in my c900 when the windshield got broken, "because Saab parts are so expensive". I pointed out that I'd been paying a high premium all these years, "because Saab parts are so expensive", and that I wouldn't acccept substandard glass. Then I mentioned the state of Wisconsin law saying that I didn't have to accept aftermarket crap, and they saw my point (but lost me as a customer due to the tactic). There's a possibility that if they are playing _this_ game with you as far as models, they may be equally clueless when it comes to replacement parts. American Family isn't annoying far as I've seen, for what that's worth. > If there is a grey area, you will need to document what you have or ask > your agent if you can pay the premium for a CSE and only have a CS. Naah, if they don't have your model in their book, the claims adjuster will use that as an excuse to not pay out at all because you gave them an "easy out". That's their job, to reduce costs to their employer. Find a company with a clue about your car. Dave Hinz > As for non turbo CS/CSE that was 93 and 94 only as far as I know. 95-97 > CS are all LPT and CSE are all 200 HP FPT. Nope, it's dependant on which market you're looking at. Cheers! Well I certainly seemed to have opened a can of worm here... thanks for the replies so far... from the VIN decoder at http://www.saab9000.com/information/vin.php I got the following.... which seems to match what I thought I had... (and I don't have a turbo guage on the dash, but theres a "turbo" under the bonnet near the grill) Model year 1996 Model series CD/CS with driver's and passenger's airbag Body style 4-door CD Engine Turbo, B234E (2.3l light-pressure turbo) Transmission 4-speed automatic Built at Trollhattan line A With a bit more googling I also found some other background info re ecopower / lpt at http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/models/1996/5449.html according to it (authorative?) "Ecopower applies to Saab's full-boost turbos and Light Pressure Turbo (LPT) four-cylinder engines. The four Ecopower engines are the potent 185-hp 2.0L in the Saab 900 line, the award-winning 170-hp 2.3L LPT in the Saab 9000 CS, the 200-hp 2.3L in the Saab 9000 CSE and the impressive 225-hp 2.3L in the Saab 9000 Aero". So I think I must have the "the award-winning 170-hp 2.3L LPT in the Saab 9000 CS" even though mines a CD. Re insurance ... not sure how authorative the Parkers site is at http://www.parkers.co.uk/choosing/tech_data/index.aspx?range_id=352 but it knows about my derivative 2.3 CD EcoPower 4d Auto and shows its as ins group 14 (is this accepted in insurance industry?) where as the one designated 2.3 CD Turbo 4d Auto is ins group 16... So I presume when ins companies ask "is it the turbo" they mean the one with Turbo in its name (ie full boost turbo, not LPT)? I think I'll just keep saying "2.3 CD EcoPower 4d Auto" when asking for a quote and insisting they match it (perhaps point them to parkers?) This thread has certainly helped clear things up for me ... its a pity that not all the insurance companies and most generic parts suppliers don't seem to recognise all the varients. Andrew > Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... > But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > wrong parts .... > Any advice on what I've got?... > Well I certainly seemed to have opened a can of worm here... > thanks for the replies so far... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Built at Trollhattan line A There's no arguing with the VIN - that's the model you want to insure. The full specifications for the 9000 (albeit 1995 model) can be found here: http://www.saabcentral.com/assets/img/features/gm900/brochures/1995/9000_spe cs.gif Oddly, this chart shows only the CDE model to be the 2.3 (170 BHP LPT) ... Take a look at what the CDE has and what yours doesn't? Googling for "1996 SAAB 9000 CD 2.3" does glean some results though ... Nice ride, all the same. Paul > and shows its as ins group 14 (is this accepted in insurance industry?) > where as the one designated 2.3 CD Turbo 4d Auto is ins group 16... So I > presume when ins companies ask "is it the turbo" they mean the one with > Turbo in its > name (ie full boost turbo, not LPT)? I think I'll just keep saying "2.3 CD > EcoPower 4d Auto" I don't see why that's the case at all, I have a "2.0 CDS Turbo" and it's a light pressure turbo. David. >This thread has certainly helped clear things up for me ... its a pity that >not >all the insurance companies and most generic parts suppliers don't seem to >recognise all the varients. My insurance company just asks me for the VIN on it and whether I've installed modificiations. The VIN, particularly on Saabs, tells them all they need to know. I went from a 1994 Lincoln Mark VIII to a 1995 Saab 9000CS. My insurance rate dropped $120 a year thanks to Saab's great record for safety and because nobody steals them. laurak@madmousergraphics.com http://www.madmousergraphics.com web design, print design, photography > My insurance rate > dropped $120 a year thanks to Saab's great record for safety and because > nobody > steals them. I wish UK insurers would take SAAB's anti-theft record into consideration! .. "Duh, Where's the ignition?" Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > Happy owner of a 1996 4 door saab 9000 CD 2.3 ecopower auto.... > But whenever I try to get insurance ... or go to a Parts supplier (eg [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > .... > Any advice on what I've got?... If you're in north america then it's certainly injected. As for the turbo, look under the hood, it's pretty hard to miss the turbocharger hanging off the exhaust manifold, it's a spool shaped thing with some hoses going to it. |
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