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Car Forum / Saab Cars / June 2004[Saab_c900] When was APC introduced in the Saab 900's?
Hi everyone, Here in Sydney (Australia) the local service station has, as of this week, stopped selling lead-replacment petrol (aka LRP) and it's being phased out by most oil companies in Australia over the next 12 months. BP, who supplies the service station I prefer to use, is now selling it's newly-concocted 98 octane 'BP Ultimate' unleaded fuel out of the former LRP pump. Since it's 'unleaded' it looks like I will need to start using unleaded fuel additives in my two Saab 900's with B201 engines (1983 and 1985 builds). I know a few people who run older cars (not Saab's) on ULP and use additives for valve protection. I know that the 1980's where pretty much the transition period, at least here in Australia, when cars changed from running on leaded fuels to 'unleaded' fuels. When exactly did Saab start supplying 900's with APC, and how do I tell if my two 900's have it? My 1985 900 has the later version of the B201 block with the starter motor under the intake manifold instead of under the exhaust manifold (my 1983 900 has the older style). If my 1983 900 has APC, it should run on higher-octane unleaded fuel without a problem. LRP is 95 octane here in Australia, and standard unleaded is around 93. Most of the newer high-tech fuel mixtures are 97 or higher. What do others think? If the cars do have APC, are there any other things which can be affected apart from the valves by running B201 engines on unleaded fuels? Regards, Craig.  SignatureCraig's C900 Workshop - c900@poison.lios.apana.org.au | Remember to Visit the Website - http://poison.lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | remove 'poison' If you're a Saab C900 enthusiast, join our Yahoo 'saab_c900' group and/or join our mailing list at "http://lios.apana.org.au/mailman/listinfo/saab_c900" > Here in Sydney (Australia) the local service station has, as of this week, > stopped selling lead-replacment petrol (aka LRP) and it's being phased out [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 1985 builds). I know a few people who run older cars (not Saab's) on ULP > and use additives for valve protection. Why? Why do the valves need protection? The alloy heads have steel valve seats. > I know that the 1980's where pretty much the transition period, at least > here in Australia, when cars changed from running on leaded fuels to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > unleaded is around 93. Most of the newer high-tech fuel mixtures are 97 or > higher. I run all of my 900s on 95 octane unleaded. I occasionally use 98 octane on one of them (my fun T16). > What do others think? If the cars do have APC, are there any other things > which can be affected apart from the valves by running B201 engines on > unleaded fuels? Your valves won't be affected. The only cars you might get a slight problem on are the 8v turbos. All the 16v turbos will be fine (APC). All the non turbos will also be fine. SignatureGrunff > > Here in Sydney (Australia) the local service station has, as of this week, > > stopped selling lead-replacment petrol (aka LRP) and it's being phased out [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Why? Why do the valves need protection? The alloy heads have steel valve > seats. That's what I thought, but since it was in the years when Australia (not sure about other countries) was transitioning from leaded to unleaded fuels, I figure it's better to check all this out first. 8-) > > If my 1983 900 has APC, it should run on higher-octane unleaded fuel > > without a problem. LRP is 95 octane here in Australia, and standard [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I run all of my 900s on 95 octane unleaded. I occasionally use 98 octane > on one of them (my fun T16). I'm not sure if regular unleaded is 95 octane here but I believe it is. The lead-replacement fuel is 97 and all of the premium unleaded fuels (like Shell Optimax, BP Ultimate, etc.) seem to be 98. > > What do others think? If the cars do have APC, are there any other things > > which can be affected apart from the valves by running B201 engines on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > problem on are the 8v turbos. All the 16v turbos will be fine (APC). All > the non turbos will also be fine. Ok well this makes me feel a little better. My two C900's are non-turbo (1983 and 1985 builds). They both have auto transmissions too but one of my goals is to take the manual transmission out of my 1983 donor C900 and put it into my running 1983 C900 which is my main running vehicle because it's a 900S so it has lots of nice extras (except for the turbo). Craig. SignatureCraig's C900 Workshop - c900@poison.lios.apana.org.au | Remember to Visit the Website - http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | remove 'poison' If you're a Saab C900 enthusiast, join our Yahoo 'saab_c900' group and/or join our mailing list at "http://lios.apana.org.au/mailman/listinfo/saab_c900" > When exactly did Saab start supplying 900's with APC, > and how do I tell if my two 900's have it? Craig, AFAIR APC (Automatic Performance Control) is only a function for controlling turbo boost pressure. I believe that all turbos had an APC of one form or another. -Fred W > Craig, AFAIR APC (Automatic Performance Control) is only a function for > controlling turbo boost pressure. Correct, allowing max boost right up to the point where it starts knocking. > I believe that all turbos had an APC of one form or another. 8v 900Ts don't. SignatureGrunff > > I believe that all turbos had an APC of one form or another. > > 8v 900Ts don't. I didn't know for sure. So it was a fixed pressure wastegate then (along with the non-cooled turbo)? No wonder they had relatively higher turbo failures back then, or so I have heard... -Fred W > So it was a fixed pressure wastegate then (along with the non-cooled turbo)? Yup. > No wonder they had relatively higher turbo failures back then, or so I have > heard... They were a hell of a lot better than other turbos of the day, but they did tend to get through head gaskets more frequently than NA cars. SignatureGrunff >> No wonder they had relatively higher turbo failures back then, or so I have >> heard... > > They were a hell of a lot better than other turbos of the day, but they > did tend to get through head gaskets more frequently than NA cars. Perhaps the lack of factory fitted pressure relief valve was the problem. When fitted with a dump valve, the T8 does seem to go on without much problem ... Until the boost is upped at wastegate and/or APC box and the gearbox breaks! :) :( Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ 82 -> have APC. It started in mid year '82, I believe. Before that, it was a normal wastegate. My 84 8V had APC. Keith >>>I believe that all turbos had an APC of one form or another. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -Fred W > 82 -> have APC. It started in mid year '82, I believe. Before that, it > was a normal wastegate. My 84 8V had APC. Now that /is/ odd. I have a friend with an 84 8vT without APC. Maybe it was an option? SignatureGrunff >> 82 -> have APC. It started in mid year '82, I believe. Before that, it >> was a normal wastegate. My 84 8V had APC. > > Now that /is/ odd. I have a friend with an 84 8vT without APC. Maybe it > was an option? What does his dash boost gauge say? "turbo/APC" is written under mine - does he just have "turbo", or is it gaugeless? How is the wastegate actuated? Does it have a pipe from the turbo to the gate, or is it one of the older "charge pressure regulator" external wastegates, like the B engines? This is a puzzle ... Paul 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > What does his dash boost gauge say? "turbo/APC" is written under mine - does > he just have "turbo" Yes. > How is the wastegate actuated? > Does it have a pipe from the turbo to the gate, or is it one of the older > "charge pressure regulator" external wastegates, like the B engines? I'm inclined to say the latter, but will have to take a look to be sure. SignatureGrunff > 82 -> have APC. It started in mid year '82, I believe. Before that, it > was a normal wastegate. My 84 8V had APC. What about the non-turbo cars with 8V engines from 1982 up? Grunff and others seem to be saying that only the turbo-equipped 8V fitted 900's from 1982 up had APC, and all the 900's with 16V engines (turbo or not). Craig. SignatureCraig's C900 Workshop - c900@poison.lios.apana.org.au | Remember to Visit the Website - http://lios.apana.org.au/~c900 | remove 'poison' If you're a Saab C900 enthusiast, join our Yahoo 'saab_c900' group and/or join our mailing list at "http://lios.apana.org.au/mailman/listinfo/saab_c900" >> 82 -> have APC. It started in mid year '82, I believe. Before that, it >> was a normal wastegate. My 84 8V had APC. > > What about the non-turbo cars with 8V engines from 1982 up? Grunff and > others seem to be saying that only the turbo-equipped 8V fitted 900's from > 1982 up had APC, and all the 900's with 16V engines (turbo or not). APC is only applied to turbo cars; and full pressure turbo cars at that. LPT models did not have APC. Paul >> I believe that all turbos had an APC of one form or another. > > 8v 900Ts don't. Yes they do! APC was introduced in 1982. Since the 16 valve was not released until 1984, what did they put it on for two years? I doubt the GL/GLE would've made much use of it :) APC box number 9353657 (14 pin) was fitted to the 1982 T8 (140 BHP), 7567704 (25 pin) to the 145 BHP T8s and 7524119 to the 155 BHP T8/Tii (Intercooled model). Both my T8s have been the Tii model with the 7524119 box. Paul <--- Look Mum, I taught Grunff something :) 1989 900 Turbo S http://saab.go.dyndns.org/ > APC was introduced in 1982. Since the 16 valve was not released until 1984, > what did they put it on for two years? I doubt the GL/GLE would've made much [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Paul <--- Look Mum, I taught Grunff something :) I stand corrected! Thank you for that. You know, I've never seen an 8vT with APC - isn't that strange? SignatureGrunff > > I believe that all turbos had an APC of one form or another. > 8v 900Ts don't. yes they do... ------ MH '87 900T8 - with APC '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96 >>8v 900Ts don't. > > yes they do... So I gather. I'm going to be looking out for that from now on. SignatureGrunff > >>8v 900Ts don't. > > > > yes they do... > > So I gather. I'm going to be looking out for that from now on. The Saab race series cars were 8v APC ISTR, the first range of "Hot" red APCs were for the 8v's I've heard, and used a single board inside like the early 16v ones. SignatureCarl Robson (The poster formerly known as Skodapilot) http://www.bouncing-czechs.com >>>> 8v 900Ts don't. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > APCs were for the 8v's I've heard, and used a single board inside like > the early 16v ones. That'll be the 14 pin box number 9353657. > >>>> 8v 900Ts don't. > >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > That'll be the 14 pin box number 9353657. uuuuuuuhhhhhhhh, <tries to avoid looking embarresed> I guess</tries to avoid looking embarresed> SignatureCarl Robson (The poster formerly known as Skodapilot) http://www.bouncing-czechs.com > Correct, allowing max boost right up to the point where it starts knocking. > > > I believe that all turbos had an APC of one form or another. > > 8v 900Ts don't. Most of the 8v turbos DO have APC. Cheers! > Most of the 8v turbos DO have APC. I KNOW! You're the third person to tell me, but thanks, I appreciate it anyway. I still think it's really weird that of all the 8vTs I've looked closely at, not one had APC... SignatureGrunff > > Craig, AFAIR APC (Automatic Performance Control) is only a function for > > controlling turbo boost pressure. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > 8v 900Ts don't. Mine did (E-reg 900 8V Turbo). It had an intercooler as well... Mike > BP, who supplies the service station I prefer to use, is now selling it's > newly-concocted 98 octane 'BP Ultimate' unleaded fuel out of the former > LRP pump. Since it's 'unleaded' it looks like I will need to start using > unleaded fuel additives in my two Saab 900's with B201 engines (1983 and > 1985 builds). I know a few people who run older cars (not Saab's) on ULP > and use additives for valve protection. AFAIK most 99 and all 900 can run on unleaded fuel as they have alloy heads and hardened valve seats. This has little or nothing to do with octane ratings. I thought only H engines had APC, but if you have a solenoid valve on the top edge of the radiator, with vacuum hoses going to the waste gate, the pressure side of the turbo and the air intake before the turbo, then you have APC - and of course when there's a guage in the instrument cluster, saying APC...... -------- MH '72 97 '77 96 '78 95 '79 96 '87 900T8 > BP, who supplies the service station I prefer to use, is now selling it's > newly-concocted 98 octane 'BP Ultimate' unleaded fuel out of the former > LRP pump. Since it's 'unleaded' it looks like I will need to start using > unleaded fuel additives in my two Saab 900's with B201 engines (1983 and > 1985 builds). I know a few people who run older cars (not Saab's) on ULP > and use additives for valve protection. If you can afford ultimate, instead of Premium, use it, but other wise, use normal premium (I'm assuming 95RON/91PON (US standard)). Fuel's pricey here in the UK ATM, so mine has run normal 95RON premium unleaded fine, in my 1984 registered APC'd T16S. SignatureCarl Robson (The poster formerly known as Skodapilot) http://www.bouncing-czechs.com |
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